TC Maxi-Ball Accuracy

[R-71]

I recently picked up a .54 Caliber TC Renegade and a good supply of Maxi balls that came with it. I've only ever shot Patched round balls in other ML but figured since I had all of these I'd give them a try first.

What kind of accuracy are you getting from them?

Thanks

[Walks]

It's been awhile but I've shot them in a .54cal T/C Hawken and .50cal in a T/C White MTN Carbine. Both with issue sights.

The Hawken would group 3 shots usually touching at 100yrds from the Bench, so 1 1/4" - 1 1/2".
Lucky if the Little Carbine would do that at 50yrds.

The Hawken punched thru a 300lb hog at 75yrds at a hard run. He slide about 20ft, dead before his nose touched the dirt.

[Gray Fox]

Out of my .54 renegade and Hawken I've routinely gotten 2" groups at 50 yards shooting off cross sticks with a load of 80 grains of Pyrodex RS. I get most consistent accuracy with an unlubed 1/8" Durafelt wad under the lubed Maxi Ball. I cast the .45, .50 and .54 Maxi-Balls as well as appropriate round balls. Out of the .54 the same charge with a patched 230 grain round ball gives the same group size and almost the same POI. GF

[longcruise]

I had good accuracy results with my TC Hawken and 50 370 grains. What I found was that accuracy deteriorated progressively when shot without wiping the bore.

I was never impressed with the killing ability of the Maxi Ball. I found balls to be quicker killers in 54 on elk and 50 on deer. IMO, it's too pointy.

This on should be more deadly if you can find one

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1200/1/LYMAN-508-656

[243winxb]

T/C Hawken 45 flint 5 shots 4" @ 100 yds. The Maxi Ball is more accurate then my round ball.

If you measure the slug, its smaller at the base. It takes a healthy powder charge to expand the slug to the rifling for accuracy.

Do you like shooting elephant guns? :-) (.54 Caliber)

[Larry Gibson]

I use a 370 gr Maxi-Ball in my 50 cal TC Black Mountain Magnum. Cast them of 16-1 alloy and load over 90 gr (V) Triple 7 fffg. They run 1550 fps and kill very well. When hunting I load one down the spout then carry 5 speed loaders. Figure if I ain't got the critter in 6 shots might as well go home....

Here's the 6 shots at 100 yards with no wiping or other cleaning between shots.

288451

[megasupermagnum]

I never could get these to shoot good with even moderate charges of powder. It's ok to start at 90 grains, but best accuracy for me in both 50 and 54 caliber is 110-120 grains. With open sights, I saw the occasional 3" group at 100 yards, 4" was more realistic. With a scoped 50 caliber rifle, I'm pretty consistent at 1 1/2".

[crandall crank]

In the 80's , I've must've shot a railcar of maxi balls through a Renegade kit rifle. Couldn't of asked for anything better...easy to load, accurate and easy to cast. I prefer them to PRB in my Renegade.

[scattershot]

That bullet was designed for the T/C 1:48 twist. Accuracy is stellar.

[brewer12345]

That bullet was designed for the T/C 1:48 twist. Accuracy is stellar.

In my 48" twist TCs I have found the same. The problem I have with them is that with a hawken curved metal butt plate they kill on both ends. Best accuracy for me was charges of 80 grains and up with a felt wad.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Still working on a maxi ball load for my .54 Hawken, I’m hoping for 3-4” at 100 yards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[panhed65]

I have both a 50 & 54 Renegade. have not shot for groups in quite a while since I worked on a load for each, but accuracy was around 2-2 1/2" at 50 yds, both have killed quite a few deer here in Pa's flintlock season, so far none got away, so must be accurate enough. I really like the sights on the Renegade much better than the Hawken I used to have.
Barry

[Larry Gibson]

I never could get these to shoot good with even moderate charges of powder. It's ok to start at 90 grains, but best accuracy for me in both 50 and 54 caliber is 110-120 grains. With open sights, I saw the occasional 3" group at 100 yards, 4" was more realistic. With a scoped 50 caliber rifle, I'm pretty consistent at 1 1/2".

Note in my post above megasupermagnum's I stated I use "90 gr (V) Triple 7 fffg". That is by volume of BP using a BP measure which is what the (V) stands for. The weight of 90gr (V) of Triple 7 fffg is just 68 gr. My bad as I just figured experienced ML'ers would understand that. Not saying megasupermagnum doesn't just pointing out that a "starting load" of 90 gr of Triple 7 under that Maxi might be a bit much. By weight a start load of 45 gr would be about right.

Also note I use a 16-1 alloy which holds up a lot better to the magnum level velocity generated with the 90 gr (V) load of Triple 7 fffg. Pure lead and even 20-1 alloyed bullets did not stand up to that acceleration. At the lower acceleration level of the OP's non magnum 54 Renegade the softer 40-1, 30-1 or 20-1 alloys will probably work best. The obturation ability of the alloy under probable max level load has to be matched to that level for best results. Too much obturation is just as bad as not enough.

The TC manual shows 90 gr (weight) of BP ffg to be the "optimum load" for a 54 cal 530 - 540 gr Maxi at 1218 fps. It shows 100 gr of ffg (weight) to be optimum for 360- 435 gr bullets at 1345 to 1483 fps. Thus, if Triple 7 is used, an optimum load by weight would be in the 68 - 75 gr (weight) range.

[Edward]

If you want accuracy try lubing lower lube groove (ONLY) all that"s needed , lube the whole thing and it throws off balance ! Try it and see !/Ed

[Tripplebeards]

I've got to get out and try the Maxi balls I casted from the mold Mega sold me. Casted and lubed a bunch but never got around to shooting them. I have a 50 cal. traditions Pioneer. Didn't come with a manual so I'll have to try and Google load data for it. I also picked up 2 boxes of thompson center 50 count sabots. One for 44 cal boolits and one for 45 cal. They were around $9 each with free shipping right from TC.

[longcruise]

If it's a 1:48, then you will want to stay in the180 to 200 range in the sabots for the 44s. My Hawken spit the 200 gr 429 at 2000 fps. I don't recall the charge but it would have been goex ff. I'm not one to load extremely heavy.

[1hole]

Off a good bench, my mid 70s set trigger and TC peep sighted .54 Renegade (like Larry's no. 6) with the lighter Maxiballs smeared with Bore Butter sitting over 120 gr. charges of Pyrodex flakes usually shoots into less than 2" @100 yds. I've had some open-mouth witnesses.
(Lighter charges don't do as well.)

That is a true hunting rifle. Why the man-sized .54 died in the market while the puny little .50 thing lives on is a mystery to me.

:kidding:

[Tripplebeards]

If it's a 1:48, then you will want to stay in the180 to 200 range in the sabots for the 44s. My Hawken spit the 200 gr 429 at 2000 fps. I don't recall the charge but it would have been goex ff. I'm not one to load extremely heavy.

Mines a 1/32 twist

[longcruise]

Even better for maxi and conicals.

[longcruise]

I've heard that this works good in the faster twist.

[megasupermagnum]

I've heard that this works good in the faster twist.

Yes, my 50 caliber is 1:28 twist, and it shoots maxiball better than the 1:48 twist 54 calibers. Caveat, the 54's are open sighted, the 50 is scoped.

[megasupermagnum]

@Larry Gibson, not only the volume thing, your example shows another issue in muzzleloader powders. 777 and normal black powder like Goex or Swiss are completely different in how they burn and how much pressure they generate. I'm only theorizing that the heavier loads shoot better with a maxiball because it makes it expand to the bore correctly, where a lighter load doesn't. 777 generally produces higher pressure than blackpowder, so a smaller volume of powder might produce the same effect.

All of my shooting was with Goex black powder.

[Tripplebeards]

I finally got out and shot my 1995 Traditions Pioneer two days ago. I was using some pure lead lee REAL 320 grain boolits. I don’t have the maxi balls. I tried some lube I made for cast on them. I tried Pyrodex RS in charges of 50,60,65,70,80,90,95,100, and 110 along with a TC lubed wad in between the boolit and powder charge. The best group came from 60 grains which was 2 3/4” at 50 yards. I then tried non lubed 320 grain REAL boolits that I PC’d in the two best grouping charges. Sixty grains shrunk to 2 1/4” and I tried 90 grain which stayed around the 3/4” range. I also tried lubed REALs again without a TC lube wad and groups opened up. The gun shoots to the left and I forgot to bring tools and my homemade sight pushing tool. This was my first time shooting it and I put a good 70 plus rounds through the gun. The things I noticed was the 10 pound plus trigger and the front buckhorn sight was a good 6” or more wide at 50 yards. It was a challenge to say the least to try and float 1” and 2” circle bullseyes half way up on my front sight post at 50 yards. I’m sure if I had a peep sight it would help quite a bit. Yesterday i has some time to reflect on the issues. I worked my trigger down to a consistent 30 to 32 ounces on every pull. The adjustment screw was seized in place and snapped off so I worked the angle of the Sears. After about 5 times of stoning, filing, polishing, and testing it was braking at 2 pounds or just a hair under. Once I finally got a lighter pull the trigger was getting caught on the half cock and moving slow along with binding. I had to take a little off the tip fo the half cock catch along with stoning and polishing all the trigger components. I also found the action was binding in the wood stock after adjustments. After a dozens of times of dry firing and greasing the inside of the hammer it worked out the binding. I had sawdust on the trigger every couple of firings till it starting working flawlessly again. I would have been happy at just a little under 3 pounds but I’m not complaining. I also noticesd the “delay” in the firing of the cap VS the “bang” of the powder igniting and firing. I did have two times the cap would fire but the gun would not. I put a little powder down the nipple and it fired off both times. I was even cleaning between every shot. When I got home I found a good 10 or more caps flattened and stuck under my hammer! Lesson learned to check under my hammer after every firing.

Here’s my best 50 yard group from the other day before I adjusted the trigger.

https://i.imgur.com/UvFLUvI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gvl3i0N.jpg

Now I need to figure out a more accurate sighting system. In the next couple of days I’ll have to get out and zero my gun at 50 yards and test the new trigger adjustment to see if the lighter pull tightens my groups up.
I’ll have to get my hands on some TC maxi balls to try and see if my gun likes them better than the REALs.

[megasupermagnum]

Tripplebeards, I don't know why I saw the 320 gr and thought that was a 54 caliber. I do have a 50 caliber Maxiball mold that I use. I'd be glad to send you some the next run I do. I lube them with 50/50 beeswax and olive oil, and only the bottom groove. They shoot really well.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks! Let me know when you do!!!

[cwlongshot]

Have you been able to stop the package thefts? I had to get a PO Box here...

[Tripplebeards]

Have you been able to stop the package thefts? I had to get a PO Box here...


I have everything shipped to my Pop’s house across town after that fiasco. It’s only a 10/15 minute drive to grab my mail from him now…but it’s always there. Those boolits never did surface that you sent. I still get my neighbor’s mail on a weekly basis at my house. I blame the local post office juggling route carriers every other day in my neighborhood. They don’t do that at my Pop’s address cross town.

[Tripplebeards]

I got up early and PCd a few of the 320 grain REALs this morning and headed to the range. I had some issues with the ignition system that I start a thread with questions on but here is a 4 shot,50 yard group! My load shot a 3” group at 75 yards and dropped 4”.

50 yards…. (the little holes are from someone else shooting a 22lr)

https://i.imgur.com/osOFD6P.jpg


And the 75 yard group…

https://i.imgur.com/6sYkp7m.jpg


I used 60 grains of Pyrodex RS, a TC bore button, and no lube. I had zero leading. I found that if I tried to clean my barrel I had fliers every shot. If I didn’t clean between firings I stacked my boolits! The PC wasn’t pretty. I tumbled and left it thick.



https://i.imgur.com/K4sFDaD.jpg

[brewer12345]

Tripplebeards, what was the fouling like with no lube?

[Sixgun Symphony]

Will the Lyman 4500 lube/sizer work? What top punch to get? Will Lyman Black Powder Gold Lubricant work or is there a way to load up Bore butter?

[longcruise]

One of these works great if you can find one.
288987

[Tripplebeards]

Tripplebeards, what was the fouling like with no lube?


I had a lot less fouling and mess with the non lubed PC boolit than I did with the lubed boolit… and zero leading. My gun is a lot more accurate with PC only as well. It’s nice not to have to use messy lube. I talked to a guy I got started in casting a few years ago that PCs on REAL boolits. He said no leading and great accuracy with 90 grain powder charges. My gun’s group opens up a little more with 90 grain charges. I’ll have to try a different powder eventually…when I run out of my only bottle of RS…which I’m close to doing so. I did use a lubed TC bore button between my powder charge and boolit. They are now discontinued so I will have to find something similar to use when I run out of them.

[cwlongshot]

I woulda never guessed. BP substitute powder I assume??

[Tripplebeards]

Pyrodex RS. They had a bottle at Walmart today for $26 but no #11 caps. No one in town has any #11's. Guess I'm done testing till I find some caps.

[megasupermagnum]

For the past few years I've been buying my caps along with my primers, but before that, I used to find caps in the oddest places. I'm sure everyone looks to the gun stores. I used to find good deals at Walmart. There was even a bait store that sold a few guns, as in had about 6 on the shelf, some ammo, and maybe 777 pellets for muzzleloaders, but not much else. They also had percussion caps for some reason. I've come across quite a few rural gas stations that sold bait, and also had percussion caps.

[Maven]

Trippel...., Take a look at RMC/Ox Yoke products for lubed wads: https://rmcoxyoke.com/product/ox-yoke-originals-wonder-wads-pretreated/

And I just have to put in my oar about Maxi-Balls v. REAL's. To wit, I don't think there's an intrinsic difference in accuracy between the two. However, just like CF cast bullets, how well they fit your bore is a major factor in accuracy. If they start easily with no resistance, they're likely too small. However, if you need a bit of muscle to start them [in the muzzle], you will likely have an accurate bullet. If you don't already cast them, I've found the T/C anodized aluminum moulds to be more uniform (diameter) than the more expensive Lyman "iron" ones. Lastly, Lee REAL moulds can be beagled or paper patched, or as you've found, powder coated for better fit and less mess when loading.

Hope this helps,

Paul

[Sixgun Symphony]

Thanks much!

[Tripplebeards]

Maven, those look just like the TC wad....thanks!


I do cast the Lee's. I make sure to leave a heavy PC powder build up when tumbling like on the blue ones above before baking. Don't care if it looks uneven as long as I get a thick coat to build up the diameter and protect from leading. They definitely start harder than a thin coat of PC or non PC with lube.

[Maven]

Sixgun and Trippel, Thanks! Btw, I was shooting my cap and ball revolver today and using .45cal. wads. They really work well to control bore fouling even with the Pyrodex P I was using (mostly to use it up!).

[megasupermagnum]

That's probably the biggest reason they shoot better. The REALs are so undersized as it is, I don't understand how anyone got them to shoot. All the ones I tried I could start with my thumb, then the weight of the ram rod would send them down. They all measured .517" on the top band, but that's just a little razors edge of a driving band. If the entire bullet was a good .010" bigger, they would probably shoot quite well.

[Tripplebeards]

The lees pushed with a little force with a light coat of PC. With the thick blue coating that literally looked like uneven, clumped powder on the REALS before baking seated with good force. I use the base of my palm to push the REALS down to get them started. After I feel two "clicks" (I'm guessing it's the rifling pushing through the lube grooves)the boolit stops about a quarter in or so from flush with the muzzel. I then have to use my ball starter with a good hit of the palm of my hand to get the boolit all the way into the barrel. Once it's all the way into the rifling I can see where the lead covered in blue PC pushed around the rifling when its all in the rifling. Then there is a decent amount of resistance all the way down till it stops on the powder charge.

I did try to use my ball starter right off the bat to seat my boolits but I had fliers VS starting them with the palm of my hand. I would assume the seater starts them crooked.

[brewer12345]

Very interesting. When I was hunting with a conical, my follow up loads were always round ball simply because they are a lot faster to get down the pipe. Will have to try some powder coated conicals.

[Tripplebeards]

Anyone have any idea what my velocity is on 320 grain REAL using 60 grains of Pyrodex RS? Guessing it has around a 24” barrel? Just want to make sure the load is enough for deer out to 100 yards.

Once I find some #11 percussion caps i will get back out and make elevation marks on my rear sight for 100 yards and beyond providing it groups decently at father ranges.

[megasupermagnum]

It's more than most handguns, so I wouldn't worry about it. Based on what I've seen, you are probably looking at 1250 to 1300 fps, rough ballpark.

[243winxb]

Should hear a "crack" from the bullet breaking the speed of sound.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks, that's about what I figured for a muzzel velocity. No #11's to be found anywhere so I'll save the last dozen I have for hunting.

[Tripplebeards]

Just found some #11's at the LGS. CCI's with a 1 tin limit for $11.99. I grabbed one and will play the waiting game with Walmart who has them listed on their empty shelf spot for $4.79. I'm sire I'll run into them some day there. I did pick up 2 packs of TC lubed bore buttons at the same LGS. They were $12.99 per 100 with 35% off. Helped cusion the price on the primers a little.

[R-71]

Thanks for the insight fellas, I’ve only tried the rifle out once and started with 90 grains of 2f.

I looked in some of the gear that came with rifle and there are a couple of preloaded speed loaders that have 117 grains weighed powder.

Next trip out I’ll try a heavier charge and see what I get.

I could easily hunt with the 90 grain charge at my 80 yard limit but would like a little tighter groups than 3-4”.

[brewer12345]

It's more than most handguns, so I wouldn't worry about it. Based on what I've seen, you are probably looking at 1250 to 1300 fps, rough ballpark.

Looks about right based on figures for a 350 grain conical in a 24" barrel allegedly doing 1200FPS with 60 grains according to the lyman black powder handbook. I'd guess that as long as you can be accurate with the load, it should go right through a deer within 100 yards.

I will be hunting deer next month with a 570 ball over 75 grains of OE 1.5F. Inside of the 75 or so yards I would prefer to make a shot, I have no doubts about terminal performance.

[Tripplebeards]

I forgot I was using 54 cal bore buttons in my 50 cal. I read a lot on several forums to use one caliber bigger. Well, I bought 2 bags of lubed Thompson Center 50 cal bore buttons. Hope they work just as good and accuracy stays the same.

[megasupermagnum]

As far as I know, all of those lubed wads from TC, Wonder wad, TOTW, or wherever else are all nothing but plain old felt soaked in the lube of the month. I use felt wads myself in my rifle and pistol, although dry. I started doing it in my pistol, as it completely cured my patch tearing problem. I then started doing it in my rifle, as it allowed me to compact the powder first, before seating the ball or bullet. Now I do it just because I feel good knowing there is a barrier between lubed patch and powder, although during hunting season it is so cold, there is almost no chance of lube running out. Some claimed to get improved accuracy with a felt wad under a REAL or Maxiball. I tried them with both, and saw no difference. You can use them very oversized. You can easily stuff a 5/8" wad in a 50 and 54 caliber, and that's the size I use. I'm pretty sure you could stuff a 3/4" in there with hardly any persuasion. Try multiples at once, not just 1 wad. I've heard plenty of times 4-6 felt wads under a bullet can help overcome a bad crown of the TC QLA muzzle. I never got a chance to try it, as I cut mine off. I only bring it up, because in the case of my pistol with a standard muzzle, a single 1/8" felt wad does little, my patches still tear. Adding a second 1/8" felt wad 100% cures the problem. It is amazing how such a small change made such a huge difference.

[Sixgun Symphony]

In my 48" twist TCs I have found the same. The problem I have with them is that with a hawken curved metal butt plate they kill on both ends. Best accuracy for me was charges of 80 grains and up with a felt wad.

Don't put the crescent butt in your shoulder. Instead, have the crescent butt rest on your arm between bicep and shoulder. That means you shoot with the elbow up.