Got things started, got questions, open for comments

[Shadow9mm]

Well I cast my first batch of test bullets today. Thought I would relate my story of starting up and was hoping for input on ways to dial things in.

The lead
Is repurposed bullets at about 13bhn. The short version is I had a LARGE batch factory coated cast lead bullets (120lb ish) that were leaving heavy deposits of lead and bullet coating in the barrels after only 50rnds. I could not fix the issue after much testing and decided to repurpose the lead. Its a LONG story and I would rather not go down the rabbit trail again.

Cleaning it up
I got a small stainless sauce pan, and used my single burner camping stove with the green propane tanks and melted down bout 6lb at a time as more than that was too hard to pour. I have been able to melt down about 45lb so far. I got a Lee ingot mold. It was cheap, and I figured having 1/2 bar slots for making my own alloys down the road would be helpful. In retrospect getting the lyman 4x1 lb ingot mold would have been better. I have been heating it up in the sauce pan at full blast until it all melts then backing off the gas. while it was cooling a little I was scooping the bullet coatings off the top. Then I fluxed using the frankford flux to get the last of the crud out. I know there are other options, but it was cheap and does a long way. The lead pours fine in a single pour but leaves ripples in the ingots. it generally cools in 10-20 seconds. I figures since it is just going to get re-melted later the ripples are fine.

Casting
I got the Lee Pro 4, 20lb furnace, because it was cheap. I also got lee molds, because they are cheap and I am learning. I got a 125g round nose for 9mm, and a 158g wide flat nose for 38/357. I am hoping to get custom molds eventually but I want to get my technique down first. The only critique I have for the furnace is that the adjustment for the pour speed needs a lock nut as it moves when you pour. I started out with just 3lb. I set the furnace to 5, figuring I would let it warm up all the way and pour. However it was set too low. The bullets had lots of layer lines. and the lines from the mold were not clean. I had the molds on top of the furnace to pre-heat. I ended up turning it up to 9 and then backing it down. Around 7 1/4 ended up being the sweet spot. the bullets were clean and the edges were crisp. at 7 1/2 the bullets were frosting. at 7 the bullets were fairly crisp but there were some layer lines.

Sizing
I am planning to try sizing tomorrow. This is one of the things I am still learning about. How long should I wait after casting to size? I have heard if I size too soon and the lead has not reached even hardness it might end up under sized due to not spring back as much? For now this is a test batch and I am going to measure some as cast and size tomorrow.

I have a LEE app press and got the sizing kit and punches. For .357 I will be sizing at .359 (based on my cylinder size) and 9mm will be a .357. Hoping to set it up and try sizing tomorrow.

everything was done outside, and there was a light breeze.

So a few questions

Frost on bullets
From what I understand this means the lead or mold were too hot when pouring, is this right? Also does it effect the bullets in any way other than cosmetics?

water dropping
We cooled a few of the bullets in water so we could look at the, better right after casting. As I understand it this can harden the bullets. My basic understanding is that air cooled bullets start out a touch soft then evenly harden to where they started. Water cooled bullets harden and get much harder than air cooled but soften some over the next few days. But I dont understand the specifics. How much harder is a water cooled bullet? will it soften to its original hardness, or once it settles will it still be harder than air cooled. starting out at 13bhn. I understand this is not an exact science, just trying to get a ballpark idea. I plan to air cool the majority of my bullets, but am considering water dropping the ones for my full power 357 loads.


This is where I am now. I know I still have a good bit to learn. What can I do better?

288424

Quick update. did my first sizing and lube, got a couple more questions

sizing
the bullets seemed to go through fine however I'm seeing a couple things I don't understand. As best I can tell the 38/357 mold is dropping around .358 to .360 if i measure as I turn the bullets. the 9mm mold is dropping right bout at .358.
1. streaks on the bullets. the sizing process is leaving lines down the sides of the bullets, is this normal or do I need to be fixing something?
2. the bullets are not sized all the way around. there are some spots on the sides that look like they were not touched by the sizer
3. some of the ogive is getting sized. is this normal, seems a touch odd and does not look the best.

lubing
seemed to go ok as near as I can tell, but I may have put too much lube on. had a couple questions.
1. the instructions say wax paper. will using foil be a problem for now or will it stick and pull buts of foil off
2. did I use too much lube?
3. how thick is the lube supposed to be. it was like a THICK grease. did not want to come out of the bottle

288438
288439

[samari46]

Some may dispute this, but I like frosty bullets. I normally cast the first dozen casts faster just to get the mold temp to where I get an evenly uniform frosty bullet. Then slow down so as to maintain the frosty condition. I use a pair of heavy welders gloves to slightly apply some downward pressure on the sprue plate and swing the sprue plate away from the mold. I get nice clean bullet bases and very good fillout of the mold. I have a Finnish M27 and shoot only cast bullets in it. Lyman's 314299 mold is THE bullet for Finnish rifles. Mine casts .303-.304 on the bore riding section and usually .314 on the body. My Finn slugs out at .3115 and size to .3135. Russian Moisin Nagant rifles and carbines need a larger diameter bullet. Frank

[Minerat]

Load and shoot them. Those are pretty good for your first go. Don't over think it you are doing it right, I cast hot at around 750. If you go to fast at this temp you sill get frosting like what you have. At the rate shown on your pictures you are just fine it will not affect the boolits. I shoot for that because I usually get better fill out, and less wrinkles with a little frosting. Just so you know, shoot for getting clean sharp bases and crisp lube shoulders, a few wrinkles on the nose does not seem to affect the accuracy for most hand gun uses like punching holes in cans or critters.

I sometimes don't size for months after casting and it seems to make little difference.

Get one of the Lyman Cast Boolits hand books and read Glen Fryxells from Ingot to Target, see link below

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[358429]

You are on the path to making excellent munitions[emoji3]. I was doing the similar twelve months ago. Brazos really leaded my guns[emoji3]. I am glad, it forced my hands to trouble shoot and find solutions.

I cast for a long time with a coleman stove and iron pot. It was frustrating to maintain temperature...

Mold temperature is more significant than alloy temperature. I started heating my molds with a propane plumbers torch (the green bottles).

Now I ladle cast with a turkey fryer and a one quart saucepan. I just like it better that way. Find what you like and refine it. I take the mold and put it directly in the open flames, to build the Heat and periodically to maintain it(heat).

Get some two cycle oil and clean cotton rags[emoji41] use to wipe the mold when up to proper temperature. Will remove lead buildup and lubricate simultaneously.

I strongly recommend looking into powder coating the bullets. Will not have the problems...if fitment is correct.

You can get surprisingly good results with simple tools.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/c4c2921c4094a564e4a90a54e02932f6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/c053304a780f41344c7830bdfc03267a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/213224ef7632e608f9672a49ef26909c.jpg

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[358429]

Frosted bullets will form slightly smaller. Water dropping will harden faster and harder if antimony is in the alloy. If you powdercoat frosted bullets then air cool things are usually ok. I am shooting plain base pc air cooled 357 mag lead bullets with heavier powder charge than I would use for jacketed, and getting no leading and ok accuracy, fantastic power.

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[Cosmic_Charlie]

A bhn of 13 is a bit hard for normal loads up to about 1,000 fps or so. Good for your 9mm though. I have found a bhn of 10 to work well for for light and medium loads. Your boolits look good.

[Wayne Smith]

You don't have to wait to size - size difference within the first month or so is insignificant. When I water drop rifle boolits I size immediately because they become much more difficult to size as they get harder. For pistol boolits this is not necessary, especially since you are using bhn 13 lead to start with.

Size, lube or PC, and shoot. Looks good for a first try.

[dverna]

Load and shoot them. Those are pretty good for your first go. Don't over think it you are doing it right, I cast hot at around 750. If you go to fast at this temp you sill get frosting like what you have. At the rate shown on your pictures you are just fine it will not affect the boolits. I shoot for that because I usually get better fill out, and less wrinkles with a little frosting. Just so you know, shoot for getting clean sharp bases and crisp lube shoulders, a few wrinkles on the nose does not seem to affect the accuracy for most hand gun uses like punching holes in cans or critters.

I sometimes don't size for months after casting and it seems to make little difference.

Get one of the Lyman Cast Boolits hand books and read Glen Fryxells from Ingot to Target, see link below

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Very good advice.

The only two things I would add is first to consider a thermometer if you cannot afford to add a PID to your pot. Alloy temperature is important. Second, try to achieve a consistent cadence. Once you are getting good bullets, resist the temptation to admire or inspect your bullets as you cast.

Well, here is a third suggestion. I do not like a lot of frosting on a cake, muffin or bullet. When I get a lot of frosting on a bullet, I use a damp cloth pad and place the mold sprue plate on it for 2-3 seconds. That lets me cast more bullets per hour instead of adding time to air cool the mold.

Once you get a rhythm going you will be surprised at how many bullets you will produce.

I size bullets well after casting so cannot comment on if they grow or not. As long as you do things the same way every time the results will always be the same. Casting is a science...not an art. I am shooting bullets 10 years old with the same recipes as when those bullets were 6 months old.

If you were getting leading, it was likely with your 9mm. That caliber can be a challenge but you have a good alloy for it at 13 Bh. In any case, I suggest starting with your .38 caliber bullets at .38 Spl levels. It is one of the easiest calibers to cast for and getting a bit of success under your belt is rewarding.

Good luck!!!

[kbstenberg]

Just my 2 cents. I also like to size as soon as posable after casting (reasons already given) and because they can still get harder in the future. I have seen information that aged bullets loose SOME BHN after sizing, but I have not seen anything about increassing BHN after later sizing.
I also like frosting on my bullets because of edge fill out. But unlike Dverna i would rather use a fan or time delay between pours.to my way of thinking, a wet rag will give inconsistant mold temperature drops. But then again i could be all wet with my reasoning on this last point. Kevin

[gwpercle]

I like to cast them right at frosty , usually the dial will be set between 7.0 and 7.5 .... when all is warmed up @ about 7.25 !
When just slightly frosty you are at a good temperature for good fill out with no "wavy lines" which indicates ... not hot enough cold mould or cold metal .
Air cool handgun boolits , water dropping / hardness not necessary in handgun boolits .
Air cooled will age harden (two weeks) so sizing them within a day or two is easier than sizing them when fully hard .
Don't forget to Flux Often when casting .
You are doing good ... the only way to learn to cast boolits is to cast boolits !
Keep On Keeping On !
Gary
Correct boolit size is way more important than boolit hardness .

[fredj338]

If you are going to powder or HT coat, dont bother water dropping,. The 15-20m in the oven pretty much undoes any hardening.

[Mk42gunner]

I've never found water dropping necessary for handgun projectiles, and rarely for rifles.

I don't like to use straight from the bottle Lee Liquid Alox, but the thinned down BLL seems to work fine. There should be a rather long thread about it in the lube section.

Robert

[charlie b]

First off, you have learned a bunch and are making decent bullets. Congratulations.

Just my opinion, I don't like water dropping or hardening. If I want a harder bullet I start with a harder alloy.

Sizing. I size the same day I cast most of the time. Not that big a deal one way or the other. The 'streaks' are not normal if they look like scratches. Lee sizing dies sometimes need a little polishing. Doesn't take much. The places where the dies do not touch shows that the bullets are slightly undersize for the die (or it is slightly out of round). Many Lee molds are designed to produce a bullet made from wheel weights that can be fired without sizing. It is not unusual for some bullets to come out a bit smaller due to temperature differences during casting or due to a different alloy.

Lube. Seems like you tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox. Looks like it is on a bit too thick. When I use it I dilute it with some mineral spirits (also look up 45-45-10). A couple VERY thin coats are better than one thick coat. It should be just enough to see a very slight color change on the bullet.

[farmbif]

your bullets look good, but if they are dropping from mold out of round, you said .358 one side and .360 the other side of same bullet, there's got to be a reason for this.usually even a cheap lee mold will drop round bullets. are you dropping them onto a hard surface before the alloy has time to harden?
I drop hot bullets onto a pile of old towels to prevent deformation

[15meter]

I've never found water dropping necessary for handgun projectiles, and rarely for rifles.

I don't like to use straight from the bottle Lee Liquid Alox, but the thinned down BLL seems to work fine. There should be a rather long thread about it in the lube section.

Robert


BLL is Ben's Liquid Lube, a contributor here, Ben came up with a modification of Lee Lube using Johnson's liquid floor wax. It works incredibly well and goes on much thinner than what you have on your boolits.

Unfortunately Johnson's quit making their liquid floor wax shortly after. I suspect the solvents they were using were part of the problem, but they worked ridiculously well to thin the Lee Lube and added carnuba wax to the mix.

Ben has since come up with a replacement formula using a different floor wax that from all reports does a great job. I lucked into a multiple lifetime supply of Johnson's so I have never tried the new formula.

Occasionally you can find a can or two of the original stuff if you prowl the back isles of hardware stores in backwater towns as I'm prone to do.

If you have a little time to read you can check out the original Ben's Liquid Lube thread, it's only up to 1367 posts.

Read it here:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259285-NEW-!-!-T-L-Liquid-Lube&highlight=Ben%27s+liquid+lube


There is also 45/45/10 that is highly recommended, I've never used it but this thread gives a good tutorial on tumble lubing:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free

[GregLaROCHE]

Frosted boolits are fine to shoot. I’ve never had a thermometer for my casting pot. I heat the alloy until the Boolits start to frost and then turn down the pot some. An important thing to know is that as the level in the pot goes down, you need to turn down the setting on the pot. Also, the right setting one one day isn’t always the right one for another. Maybe something about ambient temperature or limitations of the thermostat.
If your boolits don’t like to stand up by themselves, there are ways to help them. Some people use a grid made of hardware cloth, silicone hot plate pads with the appropriate size spaces in them, holes drilled in a piece of sheet metal, etc.
I use a silicone baking sheet, but with time it has become deformed, making it more difficult to stand up boolits. I’m thinking about going to non stick foil.

[Cast10]

I’m kinda new too. I noticed when sizing some marks were showing up. I sprayed some case lube up into the sizer die and it took care of it. Now, before I start sizing I give it a shot.

[358429]

Periodically my cartridge full length sizer die, seat-crimp die and the bullet sizing bushing require more resistance to do their respective operations. Five passes with the brass bore brush removes any buildup that occurs and restores functionality of the tools.

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[Shadow9mm]

been reading and listening

hoping to get a thermometer in the near future, but its probably a payday or 2 out
frosty is ok, but I need to allow a little extra time for my mold to cool between pours
sizing same day will be easier as the lead is still a touch on the soft side


thin the alox a bit with mineral spirits or wax
need to make sure there is no junk in my mold and drop bullets on a soft surface so they dont go out of round.
try a touch of case lube before sizing to prevent marks. maybe a touck of polishing if needed.

does that sound about right?

[megasupermagnum]

Don't even worry about the alloy or bullet lube at this point, it doesn't matter much. Frosty bullets are perfect. It takes an old hand to make perfect shiny bullets. You ask about the ogive being sized, and that's not only normal, it's desirable. That is called the front driving band, it determines how the bullet goes into the barrel. The base of the bullet is the steering end when it leaves the barrel, but the front is the steering end into the barrel.

You have one major flaw that doesn't seem to be pointed out. At least one of your molds is casting bullets very much out of round. They look very bad, I would not bother shooting them. They need to be melted back down. This could be caused by a few different things, but since the castings appear filled out, I'm going to say most likely is a mold that is not aligned properly. This could be caused by not closing the mold tightly, the alignment pins being pushed out, or maybe a little lead on the face of the mold blocks.

[Shadow9mm]

Don't even worry about the alloy or bullet lube at this point, it doesn't matter much. Frosty bullets are perfect. It takes an old hand to make perfect shiny bullets. You ask about the ogive being sized, and that's not only normal, it's desirable. That is called the front driving band, it determines how the bullet goes into the barrel. The base of the bullet is the steering end when it leaves the barrel, but the front is the steering end into the barrel.

You have one major flaw that doesn't seem to be pointed out. At least one of your molds is casting bullets very much out of round. They look very bad, I would not bother shooting them. They need to be melted back down. This could be caused by a few different things, but since the castings appear filled out, I'm going to say most likely is a mold that is not aligned properly. This could be caused by not closing the mold tightly, the alignment pins being pushed out, or maybe a little lead on the face of the mold blocks.

the 9mm mold seems to be dropping very round. I will have to tinker with the 38 mold to see if I can find the problem. I will probably load up a few to shoot and a few to save as it is my first batch and will melt the rest back down. Thank you!

[Minerat]

Close the 38 mould and look to see of you can see light between the blocks, if you do it means either the alignments are out too far or you habe something on the mould face. If you hold the blocks together there should be very little play when you try to rob them together if there is the the pins may be set too deep and need to be tapped out a little so they seat into the pin races.

[44Blam]

One thing you need is a thermometer.

I find that some molds I run hotter and some I run cooler. I have a piece of paper that I put in my box of molds that I make notes on so I can pick up the mold and know that I should heat up the pot to 715 and cast fast... Or 650 and cast slow, etc.

[Beaverhunter2]

A little addition to what has already been shared:
I'm shooting an NOE 126gr GC PC out of a 6.5 Grendel at 2300fps. COWW water dropped at the last coat of PC (2 coats - shake and bake) shot significantly worse than AC. 3"+ groups vs just over 1" at 100 yards. Replicated it 4 times before "annealing" the rest of my water quenched boolits. Hard is not always better- even at rifle velocities.

[Wayne Smith]

Are your molds Lee 6 cavity molds? If so holding the sprue handle when casting will open the mold slightly - more at the outside of the mold than close to the hinge. Try casting consciously keeping your hands off the sprue handle and see if it works better.