10mm Auto for bear defense?

[bigbore442001]

Hello All:

One of the dangers of watching too much Youtube is that you get exposed to all kinds of ideas from others and it begins to make you think a bit.

It seems that there is a current fad to use the 10mm Auto with heavy hard cast bullets or some of the new machined copper rounds with the Philips head style of projectile for defense against dangerous animals.

I kind of like the idea and understand the logic. A Glock M40 with 15 rounds of hardcast handloads would be effective against something as well as possibly being a tad easier to shoot.

But I do wonder in the real world how effective a 220 hardcast bullet at 12-1250 fps would actually be?

What are your opinions?

Thank you

[badguybuster]

10mm is MINIMUM for big bodied animal defense. There is a youtube channel called Alaskan Ballistics that does some pretty thorough testing. That being said, a long gun is always a better choice in big bear country. I tested some of the buffalo bore 200gr hard casr from my Dan Wesson Wraith. At 20 yards it penetrated a deer hide, a side of pork ribs (broke 3 ribs) and then 22" of ballistic gel. I was pretty impressed with it but the recoil was terrible from a 5" 1911. They also had a tendency to jam up when entering the breech. I switched to 180s.made by Montana Bulletworks. The meplat isnt as large but they feed 100% of the time and are SMOKING out of the barrel

[725]

Without experience with a cast boolit in the 10 mm, I can tell you that a jacketed factory round is very effective against an angry 300# pig. Shot and wounded by another hunter using a .44 mag rifle, I was charged by a very mobile and aggressive boar. As it closed on me, two taps with the 10 mm had it doing somersaults to a DRT resting place. This story is to comment on my general approval of the 10 mm.

As to it's use against bears, there are a few items that come to mind. 1)If encumbered by anything that restricts the slide movement, failures may follow. 2)Failure from a "limp" wrist or otherwise awkward purchase on the grip. 3)Auto's have safeties and when fine motor skills diminish (normal fear reaction), it's just one more thing to have to do. Of course, the Glock doesn't have that problem. 4)Capacities beyond the 5 or 6 rounds from a revolver is a plus.

So, if you are cool with planning to need multiple shots to stop the threat, as opposed to fewer shots from an ubersupermagblaster revolver, and are willing to take the fail to function possibilities inherit with autos, I'd say go with it. Best of luck.

[memtb]

No thanks! Much better than nothing.... but, “NOT” my first choice!

Too many people rely on the number of rounds that they “MIGHT” be able to fire “at” a bear.....rather than concentrating on one or two well placed, large diameter, heavy, non-expanding bullets. Attacks generally happen quickly, from close range with little to no warning. Many encounters indicate that “NO” shots were fired.....expending a magazine full is unlikely, fired accurately.....ain’t happening! memtb

[rintinglen]

If You could get that level of performance (220 gr @ 1200-1250) I'd say good enough! That would put you in the realm of a 41 Magnum 4", which is not the worst place to be.

Unfortunately, that level of performance does not seem to be had in pressure tested, published load data, at least from standard length auto pistol barrels. In the Speer #13, they list one load that breaks the 1250 fps barrier, but it is a 180 grain bullet, not a 220, or even a 200. Hodgdon lists loads for a cast 220, but none break the 1000 fps barrier. Now I have seen higher velocities reported, but from Contenders with 10 inch barrels. Lyman lists a 200 grain Hornady at a top end of 1148 fps with a healthy charge of Blue Dot. A hot .357 from a 6 or 8 inch barrel can get awfully close to that. In fact, a .357 Coonan 6", or a LAR 6 1/2" will do that, if you can find one. Still, if you are a skilled pistol shooter, or like myself, you need only be wary of black bears or feral dogs , a 10 mm would be ample. Likewise, if you prowl the woods where hostile druggies are probable adversaries, you might well be served with a high capacity mag or two.

But ballistically speaking, the 10 mm is not a 41 magnum, and certainly not a 44, a 454 nor any of the really big bores. At the end of the day, there's no substitute for displacement.

[Cast10]

Remember, 10mm is at 37500 psi. Not much load data goes that high. Proceed with caution.

[jonp]

Bears....we have been here haven't we?

:popcorn:

[beechbum444]

I think we need a bigger boat.......

[Paul105]

FWIW,

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/

[44MAG#1]

AA#9 with 200 grain is my heavy load powder. Hornady has data for it. Brian Pierce did a chrono session with it.

[1hole]

Sitting here in my recliner tonight, I feel comfortable thinking of a 10 mm against a 125 +/- bear. I might feel different out in the woods if the bear was headed my way tho. ?? Then ... thank God for my lovely old bright blue S&W M29!

[Mk42gunner]

I don't know how realistic a 220 at 1200fps or more is out of a 10mm; I will say it will be a handful. I remember shooting some of the original Norma loads from a Colt Delta Elite and it was just about as much fun as a person wanted to hang onto.

I have never held a Glock Model 40, but back in the nineties I did shoot a buddies Model 20 and 21 quite a bit. I have large hands (size 10) and they felt uncomfortably large to me.

If I were to carry a handgun for bear protection; I would want it to comfortably fit my hands, and I would practice-- a lot.

Raw horsepower seems helpful in this situation, but I think controllability and penetration trumps it. I may be wrong, I don't live in bear country, so its kind of a theoretical question for me.

Robert

[dla]

I still carry a 31oz loaded, 329pd 44mag with 270gr WFN @1150fps. I've looked at the 40+oz loaded Glock 20, but I don't feel comfortable going up in weight, down in power, for more shots I'll never get off.

[Idaho45guy]

Depends on the bear. For Black bears, 10mm is fine. For Grizzly bears, it's marginal for about 80% of them, and not good enough for the big ones. We're talking 500 - 800 lb bruins.

Funny how arguments for self-defense against humans get thrown out the window for self-defense against bears.

Shot placement and being able to hit your target is critical in human self-defense, but with bears, having the biggest hand cannon is more important than being able to get hits on target quickly. I don't get it.

A 9mm is just fine for 250lb humans, but a 10mm is not enough for 150lb bears?

A lot of fuzzy math is involved in bear threads.

[ddixie884]

10mm may be a good choice if a magnum revolver is not available. Cost and availability is the main reason along with shootability for the user. I would be careful of ending up with .40 S&W ballistics from 10mm lite factory loads. I think a lot of .40s are being used, too. I go back to the old .40, 200grFP, and 1,000fps minimum and for bears 1200fps would be even better. I have never shot a bear but probably would be more at ease with a Ruger only .45Colt...........

[badguybuster]

Something to keep in mind, is that during a bear attack it usually happens so fast you are lucky to.get 3 to 4 rounds out before the bear is on you. So, it doesnt do any good to carry a magnum if you cannot.hit your target. very few people.practice enough to be accurate in a high stress situation. Now, that being said and handgun is only.good.to.fight your way to the long gun you.SHOULD HAVE HAD THE WHOLE.TIME ��

[memtb]

Depends on the bear. For Black bears, 10mm is fine. For Grizzly bears, it's marginal for about 80% of them, and not good enough for the big ones. We're talking 500 - 800 lb bruins.

Funny how arguments for self-defense against humans get thrown out the window for self-defense against bears.

Shot placement and being able to hit your target is critical in human self-defense, but with bears, having the biggest hand cannon is more important than being able to get hits on target quickly. I don't get it.

A 9mm is just fine for 250lb humans, but a 10mm is not enough for 150lb bears?

A lot of fuzzy math is involved in bear threads.


There is one important defining deference between animals and most humans when firearms are involved. Unless a human is mentally incapacitated through mental illness or drugs.....most give up the attack when fired upon. Add to this, very few humans in one on one fight with a determined 100 pound bear would win.

An animal, bears in this instance, do not have an innate fear of firearms or injury if they are pumped with adrenaline during an attack are very difficult to stop......they are fearless!

There is no logical way to compare humans to animals in this context! memtb

[Jtarm]

10mm is MINIMUM for big bodied animal defense. There is a youtube channel called Alaskan Ballistics that does some pretty thorough testing. That being said, a long gun is always a better choice in big bear country. I tested some of the buffalo bore 200gr hard casr from my Dan Wesson Wraith. At 20 yards it penetrated a deer hide, a side of pork ribs (broke 3 ribs) and then 22" of ballistic gel. I was pretty impressed with it but the recoil was terrible from a 5" 1911. They also had a tendency to jam up when entering the breech. I switched to 180s.made by Montana Bulletworks. The meplat isnt as large but they feed 100% of the time and are SMOKING out of the barrel

I watched their top 10 and thought it was pretty insightful. I’ve always been tickled by people wanting a bear handgun when they’re hunting other big game: your HP hunting rifle is probably better than any handgun.

His thoughts on the 12-gauge slug were interesting as well.

[Bigslug]

I drank the 10mm Kool Aid in the late 1980's. I've since gotten over it. In the time since I have learned:

1. I can get all the penetration necessary and more out of .45 ACP, 9x19,.38/357 at tame recoil levels with proper manipulation of alloy, shape, or jacketing, and no need to acquire a quasi-exotic round or a crew-served handgun to deliver it.

2. I've totally jettisoned the idea of foot-pounds of energy providing anything really meaningful. If you aren't knocked on your butt by the recoil, a bear won't be knocked on his butt by the impact.

3. The FBI's theory of hydrostatic displacement causing additional damage beyond bullet diameter not being significant until you are striking at around 2000 fps or more pretty much takes ALL handguns off the table if that is what you are trying to accomplish.

That leaves us with bore diameter being the only really difference between anything you're going to launch out of a pistol, and a very large animal is highly unlikely to know or care if it is bleeding out from a .35 or .45 caliber hole, or a collection of them.

If Mr. Griz wants to eat me, I'll be trying to thread one in through the soft tissues of his nasal tunnel into his brain. A small swarm of 9mm solid flat points above 130 grains should do in that scenario as well as anything. A fatter round of equal penetrating capability might be better at breaking the larger, supporting skeletal bones, but that's more of a bear hunting answer and less of a bear defense one.

The 10mm is essentially a re-packaged 38-.40, which has - what? - a 150+ year history of successfully killing all kinds of stuff. Sure, it'll work, but there's nothing mystical about it or any other round. Placement, penetration, and speed of blood loss are what it's all about, and a great many things can provide that.

[Jtarm]

Fun thread, if totally academic (at least for me).

If roaming the wilderness where an encounter with a grizzly or brown bear were a real possibility, I think I’d still want the extra margin provided by a big bore (not a 10mm though).

A hit to the skull from the wrong angle is not going to kill the bear, but a glancing blow from a 300-grain .44 slug would, I think, persuade the bear to take a different route, vs a 9mm that might not even make him blink. Also breaking the shoulder on a four-legged animal will pretty much stop their advance, or at least cause a drastic change in speed and direction.

You don’t need a .458 magnum to brain an elephant. Ivory hunter W.D.M. Bell did it regularly with cartridges as light as the 256 Newton using heavy-for-caliber FMJ bullets. His contemporaries, who were mere mortals with a rifle, opted for calibers starting with a 5 and up. This provided a margin for error should they miss the brain, as all those extra ft-lbs would turn or even knock down a charging jumbo.

Granted, the .500 Nitro (my choice for a bear defense gun) generates several times as many foot-lbs as a .44 magnum, but a bears skull isn’t nearly as thick as an elephant.

[Cast10]

Never shot a grizzly. Big boars in Texas are as close as I come.

Shot lots of 44 mag since 18 yo. Bought ranch about 15 years ago. Hog country/thick brush. Somehow, 6 shots crawling through the brush after a wounded hog, deer, whatever, didn’t seem like enough. Too much recoil, not enough medicine pills. Glock 20 was my answer and I haven’t looked back. Lighter recoil, 15+1, and carries well on a belt.
I was in Yellowstone country some years back and took my son hiking. Was told we were in a high density bear area. I packed the G20. Never saw a bear but came upon some fresh scat. It was fresh as my finger told me when I stuck it in to test the temp. My son didn’t appreciate it later when I dove into the bag of Doritos! Anyways, never felt undergunned. I have been told its very hard to find a Glock 10mm in Alaska these days, but I dont’ know that first hand. I kinda like the statement of shooing him in the nose with 9mm. Practice, confidence, carry on.

[Jedman]

After reading many of the points about stopping a grizzly bear with a handgun it makes me remember a video I watched recently about knock down power of large caliber rifles by Ron Spomer.
What he says in the video rings true with many of my experiences is that a lot of times even the largest most powerful calibers have little to no effect of knocking down or stopping even small game animals on the spot.
Sure a hit to the CNS will do it but many times you can send a bullet clean thru game from different angles and there is no immediate reaction no matter what the caliber.
So unless you have the ability to place your shots nearly perfectly in the few seconds you may have , debating whether this caliber and bullet or that caliber and bullet may be fun to talk about but even the largest rifle calibers may not be enough.
Here is the video that I was speaking of and also believe to be true. https://youtu.be./BvWhX2MHzYQ




Jedman

[Bigslug]

Jedman, Post #22

:goodpost:

I've pseudo-scientifically been collecting data from myself and others that indicates large mammals (deer & pigs) often take something like ten (ish) seconds to fall to the ground after taking a solid cardiovascular hit. There are plenty of anecdotes regarding motivated and drugged-out humans that parallel this. We had this problem in close quarters against the Moros with 220 grain round noses out of .30-40 Krags - which otherwise given time and space to dodge, should provide adequate rapid drainage of any dangerous game on the planet.

I once shot a quail that I was immediately able to gut and pluck. Headless, gutless, and looking like a store-bought turkey fresh out of it's plastic wrap, the carcass still twitched and pulsed with nervous impulses when I rinsed it off with ice water. This was maybe 10 minutes after knocking it out of the sky. Good material for any zombie film.:mrgreen:

So in the context of a large carnivore (grizzly bear), that is angry, full of adrenaline, and determined to kill you, I think it's worth realizing/accepting that there is no 100% "RIGHT NOW!" off-switch for the scenarios we're describing. A cardiovascular kill that takes 10 seconds to a minute still allows a bear to kill you five times over - which is why I'm inclined to think in terms of brain, or nothing, and why I think hand cannons are not likely to offer real advantages over medium bore solids.

Of course, none of this answers anything - a successful 9mm bear stop will be answered by "got lucky"; an unsuccessful 9mm bear encounter will be answered by "shoulda used more gun"; and an unsuccessful .454 Casull bear encounter will be answered with "it was just the day for the bear to win", or even still "shoulda used more gun"

I am kinda curious that the Taser people haven't looked at this. You'd need longer prongs to get through the fur, and then you still have the problem of needing backup officers way out in the boonies to handcuff and transport a pissed off grizzly bear between repeated shocks. . .seriously though, the rapid incapacitation of electrical disruption is what's needed here, despite the practical setbacks.

[david s]

I haven't drunk the 10mm Koolaid but I have stirred up a couple of batches. The 10mm meets my personal bottom line. My bottom line being 200 grain NOE 403-198-WFN bullet and 1200 fps. Oddly this is my minimum for both as a bullet weight and velocity combo. If the velocity can be increased safely above 1200 fps I add bullet weight instead. The S&W 625 in 45 Colt only does 950 fps but it does this with a 285 grain RCBS-270-SAA bullet that has a better meplat/shape than the 10mm's so it not doing 1200 doesn't bother me. The 41 and 44 Magnum do 1100-1200 fps with a LBT 411-250-WLN and Noe 434-319-RF. Basically I'll take weight over velocity within reason. I don't plan on quick drawing and shooting a bear. I'm figuring we've gone past that. After I'm done being shaken like a rat by a terrier and the bear is hopping up and down on it's fore legs on me like they do it's going to be a contact shooting. I'm figuring the muzzle gasses/flash are just as likely to do as much damage as the bullet. I have no great insight to this argument as I've never shoot a bear with a handgun. Any traditional handgun cartridge would be a pretty poor choice if you knew you were going to have an encounter. So if your going to compromise how far down do you go? After breaking my thumb pretty badly in my 20's and re injuring it somewhat recently adding in arthritis the 45 Colts making more and more sense. The 10mm Glock or 10mm 1911 don't aggravate as much either. So do 9 40/200/1200 or 16 40/200/1200 beat 6 at 45/285/900?


https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/65064_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/65064_600x400/)

[Bigslug]

Some 9mm results reflecting my current thinking:

130 grain .357 NOE/Ranch Dog tumble lube. Air-cooled wheel weight and 3.7 grains of Bullseye for a muzzle velocity of 1030 fps.

288610

288609

That's the recovered bullet poking out the 9th 1-gallon, water-filled milk jug in the stack. Pretty much the same performance I got with the nearly identical bullet profile of LBT's 230 grain .45 Auto bullet at 830fps. In either case the first several jugs in the stack get some displacement-created rupturing, after which the bullet simply pencils through the remainder of the SIX FEET of water before coming to a halt. For comparison, the typical jacketed police duty load will stop in 3 jugs, sometimes four. As I recall from years ago, the 180 grain .357 Magnum Black Talon (marketed as a hunting round more than SD) stopped in 5.

At 100 yards from a Ruger PC Carbine, it still has enough juice to pop a single:

288611

So, while I'm not going necessarily to argue against bigger being better, I do have to argue that - within the confines of what we can practically carry on our hip - it may not be so much better (with the only perceivable advantage being a small amount of diameter) as to outweigh the benefits of lighter weight, more control, and more rounds.

Based on the factors of my last post, this is mostly a forensic exercise in which handgun system gives your family a larger piece of meat to bury, and how far the coroner has to travel up your keister or down your throat to extract your handgun from where the bear shoved it.:mrgreen:

[david s]

Phil Shoemaker the Alaskan fishing and bear guide stopped a grizzly charge with some fishing clients using a 9mm somewhat recently, like in the last decade or so. The grizzly that killed and ate Treadwell and his girlfriend was supposedly stopped by 40 S&W. And in the 1980's there was a photo spread in an outdoor magazine where a Fish Wildlife and Parks officer was pulled down off the culvert trap by the grizzly being released and killed by the officers 357. It's been done more than a few times with lesser rounds. I wasn't at any of these events so can't comment on them. I tend to come down on the side of deeper penetration trumping all other factors but I've been wrong before.

[crash87]

I've hunted for and took exactly one Grizzly (Brown) Bear, I don't plan on ever doing it again. Why? it has gotten very expensive, with that said I really don't have a desire anymore, even if it was as affordable for me as the first time. One was enough, and I would rather hunt like about 7 other things with the money spent on one Brown bear hunt. Now,
If a 10MM was all I had, I would go with the only thing I have, the 10mm. Seeing as how that wouldn't be the only thing I'd have because I wouldn't even consider taking it, its a decision I wont even have to make. In fact I used a 338, and didn't even bring a Handgun, "backup"! I even have a few of the big boomers associated with bear backup "revolvers"! The only time I really missed it was when I was in a one man tent for 14 nights, in a drainage at 5000 ft, trying to figure out if a bear was to come, to investigate a snoring sound, would he come from/for my feet, or the source of this obnoxious sound, my head? So I rolled the dice and alternated, muzzle up or down until I got cocky and started flipped a coin. BTW when your up close and personal to one of these beasts, any rifle that has "BIG" in front of "Bore" seems small. Enjoy the debate,
crash87

[Markwell]

We have had the privilege of travelling in Griz country and living in Black Bear country for over fifty years. That said, we've never shot a bear; came close a few times though. When younger, we carried any one of an assortment of .44 magnums; Model 29-2s being our favorites, especially the 5 inch barreled ones, of which we currently have 2. Our load was a 300gr LBT at a bit over 1000fps. A 5" 29 and the 300gr LBT load was our standard armament in bear country and was our constant companion while working several seasons in a hunting camp in the Wyoming Range east of Bondurant. However, as we got older we found that recoil management with the big .44 and placing shots on target quickly was not as easy as it used to be. And, practicing with the load was down right painful. At the suggestion of a friend in Salmon we tried the 10mm in both a Glock 20 and a 1911. Being an old practical shooter (pre-USPSA/IDPA)the 1911 got the nod. It's not a magnum but our Guncrafter Industries 1911 (with a six inch barrel) sends a Montana Bullet Works 200gr WFN GC bullet propelled by 12.5gr of AA#9 down range at 1262fps. Recoil isn't even close to the old Model 29's and the multiple hit factor is way higher. Just one man's solution and opinion.

[JSnover]

Here's a revealing trend I've noticed on these 'handgun for bear' threads: The guys who have been there and done it will tell you to Place Your Shot, no matter what you use (and the .357 is adequate).
The guys who wonder what it must be like will tell you to get something bigger, no matter what you use.

[scattershot]

The world record grizzly was taken by an Indian lady with a .22. Just sayin’.

[dogdoc]

I would think a cast 200 grain bullet at 1200+ FPS would penetrate great. In Alabama I don’t worry too much about bears and certainly not griz bears but I have spent a good bit of time on fishing trips in bear country over the years and always carried a 44 mag. I had to euthanize a 2000 pound bull a while back with a 44 250 Keith at around 1000 FPS. It penetrated like no tomorrow and humanely killled the animal. I know that is not a bear but I bet that 10mm with 200 grain hard cast at 1200 would be effective . Interestingly enough , a few years ago a black bear was spotted on my farm in an area no bears are normally seen. I have read they can be more likely to attack you for a meal? Don’t know though. Just another excuse to buy a new 10 mm ��

[memtb]

Heck, a properly placed knitting needle will kill a grizzly.....but, that doesn’t make it a recommended method for taking down a grizzly or any other large animal!

Obviously, bullet placement, and construction is the top priority! While I’ve not been attacked by a grizzly, I have seen a few at close range when hunting. When seen at fairly close range....they are an impressive animal. The strength and speed of a bear is remarkable! I have had my butt thoroughly kicked by a large black bear at a county fair....and he wasn’t adrenaline pumped, just whipping my butt while awaiting his next “victim” :D The largest, most powerful handgun you are competent with will seem pretty inadequate if/when needed!

The vast majority of hunters/shooters have never killed a bear with a handgun....and fewer yet have used one against a bear (any bear) in self-defense!

Use whatever makes you comfortable! You will never know if it is enough, until you use it! That is the bottom line! memtb

[dverna]

The local group of bear hunters hunts close to me (northern MI) and also hunts in the UP...where there will typically be larger bears. I have run with them a few times. They harvest 12-19 bears a year with about half taken in each area of the state. They have been doing this for decades and have taken hundreds of bears.

The preferred side arm for dispatching a bear that has been wounded is a Glock 10mm. I believe 3-4 of them carry it. These bears that are hunted with dogs and most are treed and shot, but some are taken on the ground.

I would not hunt with a 10mm and none of them do. Bears are hunted with a shotgun or rifle but no bear has survived a finishing shot or three with the 10mm.

[358429]

I drank the 10mm Kool Aid in the late 1980's. I've since gotten over it. In the time since I have learned:

1. I can get all the penetration necessary and more out of .45 ACP, 9x19,.38/357 at tame recoil levels with proper manipulation of alloy, shape, or jacketing, and no need to acquire a quasi-exotic round or a crew-served handgun to deliver it.

2. I've totally jettisoned the idea of foot-pounds of energy providing anything really meaningful. If you aren't knocked on your butt by the recoil, a bear won't be knocked on his butt by the impact.

3. The FBI's theory of hydrostatic displacement causing additional damage beyond bullet diameter not being significant until you are striking at around 2000 fps or more pretty much takes ALL handguns off the table if that is what you are trying to accomplish.

That leaves us with bore diameter being the only really difference between anything you're going to launch out of a pistol, and a very large animal is highly unlikely to know or care if it is bleeding out from a .35 or .45 caliber hole, or a collection of them.

If Mr. Griz wants to eat me, I'll be trying to thread one in through the soft tissues of his nasal tunnel into his brain. A small swarm of 9mm solid flat points above 130 grains should do in that scenario as well as anything. A fatter round of equal penetrating capability might be better at breaking the larger, supporting skeletal bones, but that's more of a bear hunting answer and less of a bear defense one.

The 10mm is essentially a re-packaged 38-.40, which has - what? - a 150+ year history of successfully killing all kinds of stuff. Sure, it'll work, but there's nothing mystical about it or any other round. Placement, penetration, and speed of blood loss are what it's all about, and a great many things can provide that."A small swarm of 9mm solid flat points above 130 grains should do in that scenario as well as anything."

I think this is the truth. If you lack competency with putting holes in your target within the allotted time your brains may come out as bear scat. Do well with what you have Where You Are. Skill set will transfer over to any handgun if you train hard and shoot well and practice and may save your life or the life of someone important to you.

Get a grip strength exerciser and use it!
Practicing shooting double action revolvers has made me more competent with auto pistols.

Start practicing rapid fire at a close distance and once you can keep them all on the plate increase the distance and increase the speed. If you are missing or pulling shots off Target slow down and decrease the distance.

Once you run the handgun like a sewing machine all you got to do is stitch them some new buttons at a thousand feet per second. I'm not sure that any animal Will Survive 10 shots to the face in 3 seconds.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[358429]

I haven't drunk the 10mm Koolaid but I have stirred up a couple of batches. The 10mm meets my personal bottom line. My bottom line being 200 grain NOE 403-198-WFN bullet and 1200 fps. Oddly this is my minimum for both as a bullet weight and velocity combo. If the velocity can be increased safely above 1200 fps I add bullet weight instead. The S&W 625 in 45 Colt only does 950 fps but it does this with a 285 grain RCBS-270-SAA bullet that has a better meplat/shape than the 10mm's so it not doing 1200 doesn't bother me. The 41 and 44 Magnum do 1100-1200 fps with a LBT 411-250-WLN and Noe 434-319-RF. Basically I'll take weight over velocity within reason. I don't plan on quick drawing and shooting a bear. I'm figuring we've gone past that. After I'm done being shaken like a rat by a terrier and the bear is hopping up and down on it's fore legs on me like they do it's going to be a contact shooting. I'm figuring the muzzle gasses/flash are just as likely to do as much damage as the bullet. I have no great insight to this argument as I've never shoot a bear with a handgun. Any traditional handgun cartridge would be a pretty poor choice if you knew you were going to have an encounter. So if your going to compromise how far down do you go? After breaking my thumb pretty badly in my 20's and re injuring it somewhat recently adding in arthritis the 45 Colts making more and more sense. The 10mm Glock or 10mm 1911 don't aggravate as much either. So do 9 40/200/1200 or 16 40/200/1200 beat 6 at 45/285/900?


https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/65064_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/65064_600x400/)Fantastic lot of pistols to choose from man. Which one is your favorite one to shoot for fun?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[44MAG#1]

I hope I am not inappropriate with this summation on these threads.
They are about as useful as the threads on Handgun Stopping Power such as the one awhile back concerning self defense which isn't much.. Human nature dictates how we believe. Some will not change their mind even if Jesus says it. Some will change their mind no matter who says it whether the person saying it has no credentials or has a list of credentials as long as the Empire State Building is tall.
Bottom line is all will do as we want when we want regardless.
I have been waiting for PETTYPLACE to reveal his revelation he said was coming on the Handgun Stopping Power thread a while back but still haven't seen it. Probably never will. He knows it won't change a thing like this thread

[david s]

358429, In semi auto it's the 1911 Kimber. I began looking at the 10mm's about 5 years ago. I wanted to like the Glock 20 as they seemed to have a better record for longevity. But I just couldn't. This winter I fell into a nice deal on the Glock, if it hadn't been a 10mm I'd still have passed though. That said the model 20 does everything it's suppose to and well, there just so clunky though. My N frame round butts get all set up the same so there pretty much interchangeable. The 329 44 magnum gets carried the most because it's the lightest. This air weight magnum makes an okay 44 magnum but a truly great 44 Special. If I was going to pick the favorite it would be the 41 magnum Mountain Gun. I've always liked the 41's. The 45 Colt is seeing more use because of my thumb problems. Early this spring after a long Montana winter (at least for a Florida native) we had a very nice spring day. On the spear of the moment I went to a gopher field carrying a T/C Contender pistol in 22 Hornet about two miles from where the lady bicyclist was later killed by the grizzly this summer. Being I was only going to be about 1/4 mile from my vehicle and I left sort of on the run I stuffed a 3 inch model S&W 65 in my back pocket loaded with your name sake at about 1200 fps.

[1hole]

The first thing to know about big bears is they can and will kill you if they want to. Second thing to know is that bullet "knock-down power" mostly exists in movies and TV, not the real world. I love my 1911 and stout 250 gr. boolit reloads but the one living thing I ever shot with it was a +/- 30 pound feral dog hit lengthways from upper right shoulder to nuts. It did not exit, he soon died but he was NOT knocked down, so he absorbed it all. I don't believe a bear hit with a .458 Win Mag will be knocked down either.

There is a vast difference between what's theoretically possible and what's reasonable to expect. Some (silly) folk seem to think that a .22 rimfire short can kill a bear so, if hit right, the .22 long rifle should be plenty. Well, Karamojo Bell killed hundreds of elephant with a 7x57 in his day but even he would not have suggested it was a nice elephant cartridge.

A bear's skull is quite thick and, from the nose back, that's enough tapered armor to easily deflect low powered (handgun) bullets. I doubt that even a dozen puny 9 or 10mm hits into a ticked-off bear's face would be a reliable stopper. YMMV.

[mac60]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj7Z5oMWuIU

We don't have any Grizzly bears in Alabama, but after seeing that I don't think a 10mm handgun is gonna offer much protection at all.

[358429]

I saw that video years ago and somebody was saying he used #8 birdshot

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[rintinglen]

Going whitewater rafting? Go to the guide and say "I want the least effective flotation device that might keep me afloat, just the bare-bones minimum." "Here's your vest, 10MM of plastic foam."

[memtb]

Going whitewater rafting? Go to the guide and say "I want the least effective flotation devise that might keep me afloat, just the bare-bones minimum." "Here's your vest, 10MM of plastic foam."

[smilie=l: memtb

[dogdoc]

I would think penetration would be the most important . Reach the vitals or break the skull. A solid hard cast or full metal jacket 180 or 200 grain bullet from a 10mm at around 1200 FPS ought to do just fine. Granted I do not want to be the test monkey. I can shoot an auto faster with accuracy than I can with a revolver(although I am a revolver fan. USPSA competition taught me that.

[Jtarm]

Fish Wildlife and Parks officer was pulled down off the culvert trap by the grizzly being released and killed by the officers 357

If that’s the same story (and it sure looks like it) I saw recounted by Brian Pierce, the first four rounds, which were described only as “properly placed”, skipped off the bears skull. No. 5 went in the air (we’ll give a pass since he had a 400-lb bear chewing on him.) He put the last round in the neck and broke the bears spine, killing it.

It didn’t state what load, but I wouldn’t call it a ringing endorsement for the .357 as a bear gun.

If I ever frequent country where I might need to stop a charging 800-lb predator, I’ll be carrying a BAR (“Big-Assed Rifle”, though the other would be a viable option.)

[RugerFan]

An article for your reading enjoyment....

I was living in Alaska at the time of this event and know one of the guys present during the bear charge. I usually carried a .41 mag (Ruger Blackhawk) for bear protection, but eventually switched to a 10mm auto. I preferred the ability to have a quick follow up shot compared to a single action revolver. Of course it's easy to argue that a 12 ga or big bore rifle is more effective, but not always practical to carry and won't deploy as quickly when it's slung over your back while fishing. Everyone has to balance their own needs and comfort level. While running bear baits I would commonly carry a pump 12 ga or 458 SOCOM, but for hiking/fishing/bowhunting, it would be a pistol.

"Alaskan Stop Grizzly Bear Charge with Glock 10mm On Elmendorf-Richardson"
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz772jfr0P

[charlie b]

If that’s the same story (and it sure looks like it) I saw recounted by Brian Pierce, the first four rounds, which were described only as “properly placed”, skipped off the bears skull. No. 5 went in the air (we’ll give a pass since he had a 400-lb bear chewing on him.) He put the last round in the neck and broke the bears spine, killing it.

It didn’t state what load, but I wouldn’t call it a ringing endorsement for the .357 as a bear gun.

If I ever frequent country where I might need to stop a charging 800-lb predator, I’ll be carrying a BAR (“Big-Assed Rifle”, though the other would be a viable option.)

But what kind of bullets did he have in his pistol? Typical .357 law enforcement types used to carry 125JHP. If he fired similar bullets from a .44mag they probably would have performed the same.

Or, if the bullets hit at such a shallow angle, then even solids might not have worked, from any caliber.

That's the problem with a lot of these stories. The person shoots with a xxx pistol but no one lists what kind of bullets were used. Kind of important information.

I agree about the rifle :) Just glad I don't visit grizzly country. Black bears are bad enough for me :)

[Idaho45guy]

An article for your reading enjoyment....

I was living in Alaska at the time of this event and know one of the guys present during the bear charge. I usually carried a .41 mag (Ruger Blackhawk) for bear protection, but eventually switched to a 10mm auto. I preferred the ability to have a quick follow up shot compared to a single action revolver. Of course it's easy to argue that a 12 ga or big bore rifle is more effective, but not always practical to carry and won't deploy as quickly when it's slung over your back while fishing. Everyone has to balance their own needs and comfort level. While running bear baits I would commonly carry a pump 12 ga or 458 SOCOM, but for hiking/fishing/bowhunting, it would be a pistol.


Bingo!

A lot of non-outdoorsy people seem to think that those who live and work in bear country don't need to use their hands for anything other than carrying a big-bore rifle or shotgun in the low-ready position.

Also, the single-action revolver is probably the worst style of pistol for animal attacks. The speed of a double-action revolver or an auto is much more effective.

[robertbank]

Cuz I was born and bred in Aberta I amd duty bound to post this video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/oYAwiBU3OiQ?feature=share



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpmCuRCNF78

Ruger GP100 i9n .357mag hard cast 200gr pr 10MM with 200 gr FMJ

Take Care

Bob

[358429]

Cuz I was born and bred in Aberta I amd duty bound to post this video.

https://youtube.com/shorts/oYAwiBU3OiQ?feature=share



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpmCuRCNF78

Ruger GP100 i9n .357mag hard cast 200gr pr 10MM with 200 gr FMJ

Take Care

BobHe just wants a bite of you.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[robertbank]

From the Kitimat, BC Royal Canadian Mounted Police Weekly Report

"
Black bear scare
On September 27, 2021, at 2:56 pm, Kitimat RCMP received a report of a black bear in the Kildala area. The complainant reported that there was a bear trying to get into her residence through an exhaust vent and was eating garbage outside her residence. Police attended and located the bear near Columbia Ave. and Yukon St. The bear got scared and ran up a tree. Police spoke to the complainant again who said the bear tried to get into her house first, possibly because she was baking and then got into the garbage outside. Police gave the woman a verbal warning for the unsecure garbage, and she said would remove it. No further police action was taken at this time."

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

I have yet to be obliged to shoot a bear. My closest and most hazardous encounter with a black bear came in August 2002, during which time I could hear him 10 yards away (CHUFF, CHUFF, CHUFF) and smell him ( their bowels loosen a bit when they gorge upon over-ripe wild berries) but could not see him in the berry briar tangle Marie and I were backing out of s-l-o-w-l-y. I was covering our retreat with a Redhawk x 44 Magnum, and my thoughts at the time were that the tackle brought along for this engagement felt a bit light-for-circumstances. Not long afterward, I purchased my CZ-550 Lux in 9.3 x 62, and you would be correct in assuming that those two events were related. That rifle, a Marlin 1895 in 45/70, or a Win 94 in 38/55 now go along on berry-picking forays in the local mountains. Our local bears are JERKS, most are progeny of pest bears removed from Yosemite, Kings Canyon, or Sequoia NPs from the 1940s to the mid-1980s and hauled to the San Bernardino NF. Thanks loads.

The 10mm Auto. The Norma-level loads (200 grain jacketed bullets @ 1200 FPS) can do BAD THINGS to Colt 1911-series receivers without some upgrades and reinforcements. And did. Load levels come in several categories--the Federal 10mm Lite (for the FBI types), a 180 grain JHP at 1030 FPS; a large number of loads by several makers that run 180 grain bullets in the 1125-1150 FPS range; the Winchester Silvertip's 175 grain STHP at 1225-1250 FPS, depending on barrel length; and the Norma-level loads as above. A few boutique loadings claim or attain heavier ballistics, but the Norma stuff and the boutique loads might shorten service life in Glocks and OEM Colts. For those, the Winchester Silvertip ZIP Code is about as high as I would run mine.

10mm fanbois claim the 10mm to be a magazine-fed 41 Magnum; 10mm detractors say it is no better than the 357 Magnum (as if that is a bad thing?) Using the Win STHPs, it is a mid-point between 357 and 41 Mags.

If I'm in bear country--I have a rifle. Black, brown, silver, or white. The End.

[Thumbcocker]

Have there been any studiesof the effectivenessof a rolled up newspaper swattingthe bear on the nose while yelling BAD BEAR over and over?

[rintinglen]

Sadly, with the decline of the newspaper business, whacking a bear with one has become almost futile as the loss of advertising revenue has made the newspapers so thin they are no longer effective. Now, if you could find a 1976 Christmas Sunday LA Times, those things could stop a charging Rhinoceros.

[downzero]

A 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps is an absolute joke compared to a magnum revolver.

[44MAG#1]

A 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps is an absolute joke compared to a magnum revolver.

What if that 200 grains at 1200 is placed in a vital spot and the magnum revolver round hits in a non vital spot?

[robertbank]

A 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps is an absolute joke compared to a magnum revolver.

I guess it depends if you are the recipient or the giver. If you are the giver you better be able to shoot your hand cannon accurately, under stress, more than once in under a couple of seconds. If you can't you might find yourself in a wrestling match.

The good thing is Bears feel about the same way towards humans as you you do about bears when you meet each other. That is why John over in Oregon ignores them for the most part. Kind of why I prefer a loud radio or a robust conversation whith my walking buddies when we go fishing around here. I like to let Winne the Poo know I am about. I have seen more tails of Black Bears then noses.

2020 was the worse for bears around here due to a bad berry crop from all the rain we got. This year it was a better berry crop so less bears in town looking for lunch. Leave it out like the lady in the post above and you get them trying to get into houses/ In her case she got a warning from the RCMP about leaving garbage out in the yard and the bear got off Scot free aside from a climb up a tree.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

No dealings with the large, serious bruins--other than seeing a pawprint in frozen mud outside Hythe, AB in Oct. 2005 while deer & elk hunting. My size 13 Caribou Sorel's length just about matched the track's width. That CZ-550 over my shoulder felt all right, I'll tell you--5 x 286 grain Nosler Partitions of .366" diameter at 2400 FPS on deck brought a bit of comfort.

Closer to home, black bears are JERKS. I had dealings with them at work at the Sheriff's Office, once at a homicide scene with a surprise visit to the decedant's place of repose. He sauntered off after a beam from an aircraft landing light (upgrades to unit spotlights and alley lights) divided his attention. !Vamanos, oso!

A few years later, working midnights in the Cherry Valley area I got called to the weekly bear nuisance complaints at 2:30 A.M. on Monday mornings--trash day at a mobile home park built right up against the forest edge/brushlands. 1 to 4 of John Muir's "shaggy freebooters" (what an apt descriptor) would attempt to access the goodies boxes rolled out into the street overnight. The bears would sometimes run off when spotlights/alley lights/red & blue discos got directed toward them, sometime we had to herd them with our push bumpers toward the park's NW exit and the canyon from whence they came initially. One morning, purely by accident, I discovered a counter-measure while pushing a rather indignant bear toward the exit when my knee bumped against the P/A system mic, and the P/A made a nasty feedback sound as the mic button got jostled on and off. That bear took off like he got stung by a cattle prod. Bears REALLY didn't like that feedback sound, and it was used to good effect thereafter.

[Anchorite]

I think the 10mm makes sense for hunting hogs - where I live on the gulf coast it’s wet, slippery, and swampy. I’d rather have polymer than blued steel or stainless, if I somehow dropped my pistol in a muddy puddle, I think it would fare better than a revolver.

Has anyone seen the new XDM elite 3.8” in 10mm? Now that might be the better mousetrap. YMMV

[robertbank]

I think the 10mm makes sense for hunting hogs - where I live on the gulf coast it’s wet, slippery, and swampy. I’d rather have polymer than blued steel or stainless, if I somehow dropped my pistol in a muddy puddle, I think it would fare better than a revolver.

Has anyone seen the new XDM elite 3.8” in 10mm? Now that might be the better mousetrap. YMMV

You will want a stainless slide on the pistol you choose if you have wet salty conditions. We have a guide up here who goes throufh a Glock in a season but then he does not have the time to maintain his pistol like you might and he is at it for days on end in the wettest of conditions.

Dropping a revolver in the mud would turn it into a rather sophisticated club. I good water rinsh might get it going again until you got it cleaned again. I am running a GP-100 in 10 MM this year for my runing about.

Take Care

Bob

[Anchorite]

Thanks Bob. I think a stainless slide would make sense, but I can’t find a 10mm with one, so I’m limited.

[murf205]

But what kind of bullets did he have in his pistol? Typical .357 law enforcement types used to carry 125JHP.

The wardens name was Luis M Kis and he was carrying a S&W model 66 with issued 158 gr jacketed ammo. At last account he was living in a Veterans home in Montana in 2018 at the age of 92. I have a friend in Kalispell who knew him from his warden days and he told me he was a fair but tough officer. He had to be tough with a bear gnawing on him to get those shots off!

[robertbank]

Thanks Bob. I think a stainless slide would make sense, but I can’t find a 10mm with one, so I’m limited.

You might want to consider the Ruger GP-100 in 10MM. I m very happy with mine. You have less rounds eg 6 BUT if you are carrying for defense say foir bears or in your area Boars if you have not ended the threat with 6 you are going to be in a world of hurt. You are right though if you drop the revolver in soupy mud you are going to nave to wash out the mud before the gun is going to work.

Take Care

Bob