Thinking about molds for long range subsonic

[Daekar]

Admittedly, "long range" and "subsonic" don't really go together, but I started thinking about what caliber and mold would be for a nice efficient boolit for longer range shots with something like a groundhog at the other end. Usually I don't consider BC or boat tailing or anything like that when looking at molds, but now I am curious. Do we really have access to any molds which are appropriate for that kind of thing? Maybe one of the more streamlined NLG designs for 300BO?

EDIT : Would be nice to pair that with an easy to load case. Do you figure a 30 Carbine with a fast twist would be able to get a 250gr boolit to 1050fps?

[dverna]

I would try a .357 Mag with 250 gr bullet. Might even be able to use .38 brass. Cheap and easy to load.

But you need to define what long range means to you...lol

[Nobade]

I would think that any bullet that works well for black powder silhouette could be loaded just a bit lighter to be subsonic and be quite effective way out there. My 40-65 has a muzzle velocity around 1250 fps and smacks the 1100 yard ram at Whittington with no problem, load it to 1000 fps and just use more elevation and it would probably do the same thing. A bit bigger than a 30 carbine though.

[Daekar]

I would try a .357 Mag with 250 gr bullet. Might even be able to use .38 brass. Cheap and easy to load.

But you need to define what long range means to you...lol

So, I actually have a subsonic 357 load for an Accurate 35-245P which is quite accurate out of my Encore pistol. It doesn't have traditional streamlining features though.

I guess part of my wondering is that I am trying to figure out the answer to your question: in this context, what is long range? I imagine that bullet drop gets quite difficult to manage after 200 yards if you don't have a rangefinder and chart for holdover, especially with the BC of a typical cast boolit... or does that matter less than I am imagining?

[DougGuy]

At first the image in my mind of a 250gr .30 caliber boolit has it almost as long as 30 carbine brass.. So, let's say you did find a parent case that might launch this thing, probably wouldn't be the 30 carbine, most likely 300BO, 30-30, 30-06 or 30-40 Krag, it might be a fair assessment that it would keyhole at the lower velocity you want to launch it at.

This thread seems to be not just one factor that would be a no-no for me but several no-no's. First, this much lead at subsonic speeds would need to be a caliber large enough to stabilize it like a 41, 44 or 45 caliber, have a fast enough twist to stabilize it which would be no slower than 1:20 and preferrably no slower than 1:16, it would also need a parent that would be up to the pressure which in a large straight walled pistol case would be pretty normal but a case the size of the 30 carbine pressure would be horrendous to even make 1000fps with a 250, and you wouldn't be able to successfully see much distance with it.

I think if there was a way to do what you want to do, Elmer would have already done it or figured out why he couldn't. He got exactly the performance you are after out of his handguns, none of which were 30 carbine but the velocity would definitely have to be supersonic if you are to achieve anything over about 200 yards and even then the holdover would put the sights up in the treeline (or higher) to keep the boolit on a target.

Otoh, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time I thought something would be near unachievable and then someone posts that they did it.

[Daekar]

At first the image in my mind of a 250gr .30 caliber boolit has it almost as long as 30 carbine brass.. So, let's say you did find a parent case that might launch this thing, probably wouldn't be the 30 carbine, most likely 300BO, 30-30, 30-06 or 30-40 Krag, it might be a fair assessment that it would keyhole at the lower velocity you want to launch it at.

This thread seems to be not just one factor that would be a no-no for me but several no-no's. First, this much lead at subsonic speeds would need to be a caliber large enough to stabilize it like a 41, 44 or 45 caliber, have a fast enough twist to stabilize it which would be no slower than 1:20 and preferrably no slower than 1:16, it would also need a parent that would be up to the pressure which in a large straight walled pistol case would be pretty normal but a case the size of the 30 carbine pressure would be horrendous to even make 1000fps with a 250, and you wouldn't be able to successfully see much distance with it.

I think if there was a way to do what you want to do, Elmer would have already done it or figured out why he couldn't. He got exactly the performance you are after out of his handguns, none of which were 30 carbine but the velocity would definitely have to be supersonic if you are to achieve anything over about 200 yards and even then the holdover would put the sights up in the treeline (or higher) to keep the boolit on a target.

Otoh, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time I thought something would be near unachievable and then someone posts that they did it.

Mould would be something like this for 30 caliber:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-250Z
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-250E

288301
I just threw 30 Carbine out there because it's got carbide dies available and I love that about my 357mag, I know almost nothing about that cartridge. For the record, a 245gr boolit is no problem in a 357 with the right powder. In fact, I had to reduce from the starting charge recommended by the manufacturer of a 230gr boolit to get it subsonic. The accuracy is excellent, too, with a 1:14 twist. Not sure at what range it was destabilize, though, all my testing has been inside 100 yards.

I agree holdover would have to be managed somehow, but exactly how much and how much could be mitigated with boolits with good BC, I'm not sure.

[Burnt Fingers]

Ya might be able to do it with the 350 Legend.

[Daekar]

I would think that any bullet that works well for black powder silhouette could be loaded just a bit lighter to be subsonic and be quite effective way out there. My 40-65 has a muzzle velocity around 1250 fps and smacks the 1100 yard ram at Whittington with no problem, load it to 1000 fps and just use more elevation and it would probably do the same thing. A bit bigger than a 30 carbine though.

So... that's actually a good place to start the mental exercise. Clearly, if a cartridge like 40-65 can make it happen at such a velocity, then more streamlined boolits with less cross sectional area certainly can too.

[popper]

Long range, subsonic & prairie dogs don't seem to go together. What is the cyclic rate of Pdog pop-up?

[Nobade]

You might check out Kenny Wasserberger's one mile black powder match. Held once a year on his ranch in Wyoming, you get 10 tries to hit a full size buffalo target at a mile with your BP rifle. Subsonic, and long range. The good shooters connect with it most tries.
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=330775

[Daekar]

You might check out Kenny Wasserberger's one mile black powder match. Held once a year on his ranch in Wyoming, you get 10 tries to hit a full size buffalo target at a mile with your BP rifle. Subsonic, and long range. The good shooters connect with it most tries.
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=330775

Good gravy, A MILE? Holy smokes!

That is darned impressive.

[rockrat]

Maybe the 327 Federal is what you want, carbide dies and all.

[Jack Stanley]

If the main thought is actually ruining a ground hogs day , I would consider a hollow point or flat nose cast soft somewhere in the 165 to 190 grain weight class . A thirty caliber with a ten inch twist should be able to take care of what you want .

Jack

[stubshaft]

I used to shoot a 7.62X39 with the Lee 230gr. 30 caliber mold at 950fps. I used 8.0 gr. Red Dot with small rifle primers and xlox lube, out of a 14" Encore pistol. It was VERY accurate out to 200yds which is the furthest I regularly shot it at.

[farmbif]

groundhogs are pretty tough little critters. are you wanting subsonic because your using a silencer? like popper says if your wanting to dispatch destructive critters out of your garden or something get something like a 22-250 or a 25-06 with a bull barrel and you can reach out and touch them critters at long ranges like 300-400 yards if you do your part and have practiced at those kind of ranges. when I hear long range, I'm thinking 500-600 yards and beyond where you really need to understand your dope, one area of shooting that I have yet to learn or master.

[Daekar]

Yeah, thinking about what to do when my suppressor gets out of ATF jail. I have some much faster, flatter shooting options if I need that, but I am really wanting to know if there are any boolit molds out there that drop slugs with a really good BC, and how much difference that would actually make out to, say, 300 yards, compared to a simpler shape that's just heavy for caliber.

[farmbif]

in 30 cal in guns other than lever actions, the 311299 is my go bullet, with 30-06 using 4198

[GregLaROCHE]

I found out that getting a gun to shoot accurately subsonic is a lot more difficult than supersonic. Granted, I probably had too slow a twist rate, I still think it’s challenging to achieve.