Rifled Musket Education

[.455 Webley]

Not sure if this is the best place to post this or if the Military Rifles section would gain me more expert advice.

Well due to having some very questionable friends I have picked up a pretty bad itch for an original rifled musket. The problem is despite 20 years of patched round ball black powder, and more then a few years of BPCR fun, I just don't know much about them. Can you point me toward some good resources for the modern shooter interested in this kind of thing?
Book suggestions?
Internet articles?
Quality threads here?

Also once the learning has gotten into full swing and the funds have been assembled where would you recommend starting to look for such things?

Thanks for your time,
.455

[gunther]

An original musket to shoot will need a bore scope to be sure the barrel is good. If your friends already shoot muskets start with them. Get your friends to help you decide what you want, and to help you look for it. Talk them out of some minie bullets and decide which design works for you. Get some musket caps; they are bigger than #11's. 2F powder is what a rifled musket needs (See "Friends"). Check the NSSA website. Start squirreling away every bit of pure lead you can find.

[carbine]

I've been in the N-SSA for 40 years and I shoot original muskets. The organization is the largest musket shooting group in the world with almost 3,000 members. Check out their website N-SSA.org. BTW I and others shoot FFFg in everything. Pistols to .69 Smoothbores.

[bedbugbilly]

+1 ^ ^ ^ N_SSA

Source for 0riginal rifled muskets and affiliated supplies - Lodgewood Mfg. - I have dealt with them a number of times over the years for parts, supplies and guns - always been very happy.

[elk hunter]

If you're really serious about buying an original rifle musket you should go to the Maryland Antique Arms Collector show that is held in March in Baltimore. No modern firearms are allowed. Prices vary just like any other gun show but by shopping carefully you should be able to beat the on-line prices. You will have your pick of more muskets than you can imagine. As I was told, "if it isn't for sale there it isn't for sale anywhere". The fellow that told me that was absolutely right.

[carbine]

The MACCC show has 1,000 table last time I checked. Unbelievable, Picked up my Ballard there

[dave951]

I second the North South Skirmish Association. We shoot these critters in competition.

You might think you know muzzleloading cause of patch round ball experience, but all that goes out the window went shooting minies. It's tons of fun and very addictive.

[.455 Webley]

Good points on starting to pick up musket caps now, and building up my pure lead stockpile.

Lodgewood came well recomended, and I can drive down to save on shipping costs.

To be honest, and pardon my ignorance but up until recently I didn't know N-SSA involved live fire competition. I was on the website and couldn't find a course of fire listed. Is it uniform across all the "skirmishes" or does each group have its own match?

Before bombarding people with questions I like to have a good baseline knowledge built up, hence the request for a book recommendation or two.

[brewer12345]

I bought a 70s Zouave repro at the end of last year and shot a lot of PRB out of it this summer. I will hunt deer with it next month. I had some random minies to try, but they did not shoot well. Did a bunch of research and minies will be next summer's project (have a couple molds now). The idea of shooting originals is neat.

[Nobade]

Perhaps this would be a good read?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Destroying-Angel-Paperback-9781719857277/203088388?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=972

[Ithaca Gunner]

A lot depends on how many shekels you're willing to part with. An original Springfield 1861/1863/1864 model, Lorenz, Enfield P-53 with a good shooting bore and the gun in nice condition will probably run $2,000.00+ unless you run into an extra sweet deal. The big internet places like Gun Broker-Guns International-Guns America most want top dollar for junk. David at Lodgewood is a good guy with a lot of talent, I don't know who writes the descriptions of his stock, but they're really liberal when it comes to condition, his prices aren't bad, I'm just saying since you're within driving distance, go in person and ask to drop a tiny light down the bore and judge for yourself. No-one's going to warrant an original as a shooter unless they've shot the gun themselves and can provide load information and targets. As said, the Maryland show is a great opportunity for at least a fair deal, as is the N-SSA National near Winchester VA, (Suttlers Row).

Do you know what you want? There's a great deal of difference between the way a Springfield holds compared to an Enfield. Are you looking for a type of gun a certain regiment carried as of January 1863? If so I have books to provide that information. If not, try shouldering and acquiring the sights various models, see what fits you best, shoot them if you can. Something to consider, parts for Springfields are more numerous than for Enfields or any other imported weapon, and they're interchangeable, most imports were hand fit. The bores in Springfields tend to run BIG, .580-.585+. Sights on Enfields tend to be slightly more user friendly, but their higher comb stocks can be uncomfortable to some.

Are you looking for just rifle-muskets, or include rifled-muskets like the 1842 .69 rifled and sighted muskets, or even rifles, like the Mississippi 1841, Remington 1863, Enfield P-58 Naval rifle? Or any of the above...They can all shoot great.

Say you find a nice gun you like at a good price, but the bore is less than usable, there's Bob Hoyt in Fairfield PA. Bob has made modern steel sleeves for these guns and installed them for a long time, his work is very good, $250.00 + shipping, (might take a while, he's usually busy).

Another place to keep an eye on, or better yet visit if possible, (only about 20% of their inventory is on line) ''The Horse Soldier'' in Gettysburg, PA. They recently had a pretty good LG&Y 1861 Special rifle-musket dated 1863 with a nice bore on line for $1,495.00. Some pitting around the bolster, lightly cleaned, but not bad. Worst part was someone applied a finish to the wood making it shiney. They're a high end dealer, but they got the goods. I was there in April, I would guess they had 50-75 original rifle-muskets in stock, plus another 50-ish rifles and muskets. They carry an impressive inventory with prices between several hundred dollars to tens of thousands of dollars depending on condition, rarity, and providence. Can't do a vacation to Gettysburg? Keep a close eye on their new inventory on line, but it goes fast, (be vigil, be patent, educate yourself).

These are fun to shoot and collect, they're addictive even. They aren't cheap, neither are musket caps, powder, and molds, (which you'll probably buy more than one of).

Best made rifle-musket? My vote would go to the U.S. 1864 Springfield. Most popular world wide? P-53 Enfield, it was the AK-47 of it's day, though the design was great, like the AK-47 quality could run from excellent to dismal.

What else?

[Hellgate]

As to books "The Rifled Musket" is a great historical resource on the rifled musket. If you are planning on target shooting then low charges of FFFg are in order. If you are considering hunting with it then you need a patched round ball or a thick skirted minie like the 575213-OS or the 577611 530gr Lyman slug to handle heavy charges without flaring the skirt.

[Hellgate]

You can get the book Nobade recommended for $8.76 here:
https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=cjPYSk3dqBC0CsZl8hI.iP1IAO4_1497963026_1:1:1&bq=author%3Dbrett%2520gibbons%26title%3Ddestroying %2520angel%2520the%2520rifle%2Dmusket%2520as

[carbine]

455 Webley. You're correct in that our course of fire isnt laid out on the BB.Nationals is 32 Clays on a backer, followed by 16 Hanging 4 inch tile, then 16 Hanging Clay Pigeons followed by 16 Hanging clay pots all at 50 yards against the clock. The final event is 11 6 inch hanging tile at 100 yards. About 200 Eight person teams compete at a normal Nationals. We also have individual paper targets and team events in Revolver, Carbine, Breechloading Carbine, Smoothbore, Single shot rifle, Mortar and Cannon, both smooth and rifled.
Regional musket matches are very similar. All have the Clayboard and at least two standard events. Usually totalling 5 or 6 events.
If anyone has any questions regarding the N-SSA I will do my best to answer.

[.455 Webley]

As usual with this group I am humbled by the helpful recommendations and kind offers I have received over the last few days. I have a small library of used books on muskets coming that should consume my limited reading time for a few months to come.

The N-SSA seems to be the largest group involved with this kind of thing and could be a lot of fun. I appreciate it's members who have kindly shared some insight here.

It's now time to hit the books, build up the fun funds fund, and try any and all muskets that cross my path.

[Ithaca Gunner]

What you buy is your business, if you don't mind I'll drop a few hints on condition and a few other things. I'll try and guide you to get what you pay for, and not pay more for what you get.

Buy the gun, not the story! I see a lot of junk out there with high price tags which say, ''Confederate used!'' I don't care! I'm not paying three times what it's worth just because you invented a story, (or fell for one yourself) and wrote ''Confederate used'' on a tag! Some of these guns did see service on both sides. How is one to prove, ''Confederate usage'' of a common 1861 Springfield? I ask for certified documentation, lacking that I ask, ''Pried it out of the cold stiff fingers of a dead Reb yourself, did ya?'' (that usually ends any civil conversation right there and it's time to move on). There are people who will take a $1,200.00 junker Springfield and tag it, ''Confederate Used'' and ask $4,000.00 for it. There are some guide lines though, A-if it's got a name, initials, rank, regiment carved into the wood, it could be Confederate used. A Yank soldier would have faced severe punishment for defacing Gov't property and would have only done that IF he purchased the weapon himself or bought it after the war upon discharge. B-A small discrete letter stamped on the belly of the stock just forward of the trigger guard ''can'' be a sign of a ''Collected and Cleaned'' weapon, (it's something freshly researched by Steve Knott who has a book out on it). From what I see from reputable dealers, they will bring this to attention and may raise the price a little according to the gun and condition, but not near double or more, (10-20% maybe). One true, but extraordinary example is a member on another forum who bought a P-53 Tower Enfield marked with initials and unit. He paid a fair going price for the gun, not jacked up. He did some research and came up with a name and rank of the soldier in that regiment. I took the name and on a WILD gamble found this soldier was mortally wounded at Gettysburg on July 3, 1863 in ''Picketts Charge'' near the Brian farm, what hospital he died at, grave number at the hospital, and reinternment grave number in Richmond Hollywood cemetery! Looking at a map, I even concluded two possible Northern units may have inflicted the wounds that eventually brought about his death. That was very much not the normal. This rant doesn't include Confederate made arms, that's an entirely different animal, or ''J/S+anchor'' Enfields generally accepted to be Confederate purchase. Buy the gun, not the story.

Condition-look closely and commit to memory what an excellent specimen looks like in detail. Look for sharp edges where there should be sharp edges, if rounded, chances are it was sanded by one of ''bubba's'' kin folk. Some rounding from normal wear and use is okay on a shooter gun, even so on a U.S. gun there should be a visible cartouche, (2) on the flat opposite the lock. Be aware of cracks in the stock, particularly in the wrist area. Ask to remove the lower barrel band and check for a ''stretched'' stock, (one that's been pieced together and aged to match). Minor dents, dings, scratches, and even minor missing wood splinters are normal on a shooter grade gun. Look behind the bolster area for, ''burned out'' wood, a little is normal for a gun that's been there and done that, percussion caps caused it from normal firing, but excessive burn out is/was poor cleaning after firing. Musket caps of the day were hotter than what we now have, and very corrosive, plus the nipples were coned large allowing plenty of blow-back, (replace with a modern nipple designed to fire to the charge with little blow-back). Minor rust pitting around the breech, bolster drum is normal, at times making the date, (on a Springfield particularly) sometimes difficult to read, normal on a shooter grade gun. Screws should show little evidence of being turned, though some buggering is okay on a shooter. There should be NO vice markings around the barrel, and the breech plug tang should also be free of marks around the edges, (if there is, bubba was there!). On an Enfield pattern, no matter the maker except Enfield there should be no broad arrow markings, broad arrows with a crown, or V.R./V*R anywhere on it. That means British Crown property which were forbidden to be exported to either side during the war as England wished to remain neutral during the conflict. A genuine Enfield is a given as Crown property. The one exception is the ''Windsor'' American made P-53 type II Enfield possibly sold out of store as surplus prior to the American Civil War, but they're very rare to begin with and command high dollar because of their blood line and history.
Bore condition should be sharp from breech to muzzle, some scattered light pitting won't affect the accuracy, but must be cleaned well after firing or residue will collect in any small pit and cause further pitting, (as it attracts moisture). Great gun at a good price, but a not so great bore?..Bob Hoyt.

Edit to add, drop a small light down the bore on one of these and you'll see the muzzle end the rifling is shallower than the breech. It's not worn, it's the way they're supposed to be, .015'' deep at the breech progressively getting shallower to the muzzle end to .005'' deep. This facilitates loading as fouling builds up and keeps the weapon shooting accurately.

A Springfield is a Springfield is a Springfield, even when it's a contract gun. The U.S. Gov't made no difference in issue, Springfield, Harpers Ferry, Contract, 1855-1865 were all issued the same if serviceable. Some dates bring better money, as well as some contracts. It's up to you to do your homework and ask questions. My interest in these arms is 50+ years old, and I keep learning everyday! When looking to buy something, I have reference books handy just in case I miss something. Claude Fullers book on the Civil War Rifle-musket is one of my Bibles.

[Outpost75]

The information in this thread is "golden" and I would nominate it to be made a "sticky".

[dave951]

Good points on starting to pick up musket caps now, and building up my pure lead stockpile.

Lodgewood came well recomended, and I can drive down to save on shipping costs.

To be honest, and pardon my ignorance but up until recently I didn't know N-SSA involved live fire competition. I was on the website and couldn't find a course of fire listed. Is it uniform across all the "skirmishes" or does each group have its own match?

Before bombarding people with questions I like to have a good baseline knowledge built up, hence the request for a book recommendation or two.

There are two types of Skirmishes- National and Regional. National will always follow a standard "course of fire" and use 8 man teams except for smoothbore and revolver. I'll use the musket as an example. For each arm, there are generally 5 events. To get all the shooters through each event may have several relays.

First event in musket- the "pigeon board". 32 clay pigeons mounted on a cardboard backer at 50yd. That's an 8moa target shot offhand against the clock with a max time of 5 minutes. Penalties for unbroken clays.

Second event in musket- 16 hanging tiles, 4in square at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

Third event in musket- 16 hanging clays at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

Fourth event in musket- 16 clay "pots" at 50yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

Fifth event in musket- 10 hanging tiles 6in at 100yd. Again, 5 minutes, penalties for unbroken tiles

Regional Skirmishes vary the target sequence and type a bit and are usually shot with 5 man teams and reduced teams in revolver and smoothbore.

In this type of competition, accuracy and speed are king. To be competitive, you need both at the same time. And while you're trying to be fast and accurate, so are the rest of your team and all the other teams that are on the line as well. How many teams on the line in a relay? Depends. At Nationals, our range can accommodate 73 teams at once though that's a rare thing. At Regionals, it depends on the range. At our range in Statesville, NC, we have places for 8 teams.

I'll say this as a certified Instructor. Nearly everything you know about round ball is pretty much useless shooting minies, especially if you're serious about hitting anything.

[dave951]

Here's a video to give you an idea of what we do-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1qho8DLuw

and yes, we shoot artillery live fire in competition as well. Being on a gun crew shooting live ammunition isn't something you get to do at most competitions.

[.455 Webley]

That looks like a lot of fun. I will have to keep clear of that or else I may start hunting for a good shooter grade Burnside carbine.

As a person who spent a lot of his youth doing grounds keeping work at an outdoor range with his dad, I have to ask. What happens to all those broken tiles?

[Ithaca Gunner]

Pigeon board first event at 50yds. team pulls the board down and slides it under the frame to catch ''most'' of the falling material from later events, then most teams come with a rake and clean up their area onto the cardboard backer, then a truck or tractor comes along and the boards and material are put on for the dump. Probably the most difficult thing to clean up are the 2x4x4 wood hanging targets at some regionals, they burst into pieces and fly all over the place.

[.455 Webley]

I am looking at a few online retailers who deal with these. It has me wondering if any of these places have reputations that I should be steering clear of. Particularly curious if you have a first or second hand story of questionable practices from a seller. I don't want to turn this into a thread bashing sellers and small business owners. But if you know of a questionable seller I would like to hear about it. Feel free to message me if you don't want to share a negative experience in the main thread here.

[carbine]

.455 Webley, many teams stake a tarp under the frame before the match. Cleanup is easy and no bleeding fingers. Dave is correct regarding accuracy. It is a competition you need accurate reliable equipment. There are some issues with some of the Burnside brass available today from what I've read.
Good luck

[toot]

what are some of the issues with the BURNSIDE BRASS? I would like to know what to look for in them, before I purchase any of them. thanks'.

[.455 Webley]

I hear the plastic \ nylon cases hold up very well considering.

[Ithaca Gunner]

As far as dealers go, there's a few on places like, Guns International, Gun Broker, etc. I tend to ''generally'' avoid, but sometimes take a look at their stock, just in case. None that I know of are out and out thieves, you just have to know what you're looking at, what it's really worth, the flaws about the arm, and how the seller presents it. Some tend to be rather liberal, particularly when it comes to bore condition, some simply omit obvious flaws, like sight leaves missing, or sling swivels not there, ''strong rifling with some light pitting in places''-unless you can inspect the bore in person, or get a written statement they will refund your money if not satisfied with the bore, walk away. And my all time favorite, a worn piece of junk marked, ''possible Confederate used!'' and a price tag far above what the arm is actually worth. No kidding, jerkster! That could be truthfully applied to tens of thousands of arms used in that conflict. Some could be right, it was not unusual if a Southern soldier got his hands on a good gun, he might mark it with his initials, or even full name and unit, (a practice very much forbidden in the Northern armys). There are some weapons ''Collected'' from various battlefields, ''Cleaned'' or repaied at Confederate arms depots and so marked with a simple single letter stamp in front of the trigger guard. Reputable dealers may add somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% to the price if so marked, but not double + the price as some do on a ''hunch'' or story.

Look for sharp edges where there should be sharp edges, wood or metal. Some pitting is normal, as is some nicks, scratches, dents, even small areas of missing wood, (these went through a war, and some show it more than others). Some stampings can be forgiven such as the date on a Springfield on the top barrel flat at the breech due to percussion cap erosion, same with the eagle stamp on the bolster on 1863/64 Springfields and Special Model 1861's as made by Colt, LG&Y, Amoskeg, these erode with usage, no big deal for a ''shooter'' grade arm. Avoid obvious ''bubba'' stuff, like someone used a pipe wrench and a non padded vice to remove the breechplug, and sanding the stock to where an 1861 Springfield looks like a Trapdoor around the lock mortise. I knew a ''modern gunsmith'' who not only sanded the stock of an 1861 Springfield, but blued it as well, the muzzle showed wear, so he cut the barrel back an inch and wanted the price of a clean untouched gun. One thing pretty normal is some wood burn out behind the bolster, you have to set your own limit for that, I consider about 1/16'' acceptable. It's normal with use, set your own standard, I've carefully laminated a piece of old walnut and shaped it with a file on one or two bad cases and looked good. American muskets, rifle-muskets, and rifled muskets left the manufacturer ''Armory Bright'' with the exception of the rear sight which was dull blue and on most 1864 models in particular, color case hardened locks and hammers. Learn what they looked like new and commit that to memory, educate yourself, don't be afraid to ask questions or have a mentor, and lastly, don't be afraid to walk away.

They were only new once and degraded with use, some were fought with hard and remained on a battlefield for days before being picked up and cleaned to be returned to service. Some, like the men who carried them bear the scars of war and will never be the same again, some are unusable. Many were bored out and cut down for cheap shotguns after the war, some were hidden away to rust, a lot of 1864's were converted to .50 Trapdoors, and a very few were purchased by those who carried them upon discharge and lovingly cared for, for generations, (these are usually accompanied with leather gear, uniform pieces, and even the receipt of purchase-big bucks!).

As for who do I trust, The Horse Soldier in Gettysburg. I've known and dealt with Sam and Wes Small for over 30 years. They will, (upon request) provide a letter of authenticity with your purchase within a month or so, (they're very busy). Trouble is, only a small percentage of their inventory is on line, and what is on line has already been picked through. I'm spoiled, I can go almost any day I choose and look at what they have, it's just over an hour drive for me. Their prices aren't usually the lowest, but they're not out to rob anybody either. It's not a hobby, it's their lively-hood and they have overhead and expenses probably in excess of the average large gun shop. They have to show a profit or not be there. I've seen higher prices for lesser arms from some hobby dealers on line, so I would say The Horse Soldier is fair in their pricing, (although sometimes I see a nice arm at a silly low price, and sometimes I see a not so nice arm at a price that makes me wonder if one of them had a bad night playing cards or something-you ignore those).

What to expect to pay for the more common rifle-muskets?

Wall hanger, non-shootable-around $800.00 +/-

Low shooter grade, usually requiring a trip to Bob Hoyt for a liner, $1,500.00 +/- (usually + 2-300 hundred dollars)

High shooter grade, shoot as is, but low collector grade, $2,000.00-$3,000.00+

High collector grade, $4,000.00-$6,000.00 usually

Prices for carbines, rifles, muskets, revolvers, etc. are in a different pricing structure and do not apply to the above.

This is what to expect for around $1,500.00, (I had Bob Hoyt sleeve it, the bore was not shootable).

U.S. Springfield 1863

288763

Some wood burn out, but edges still sharp, eagle on bolster all but gone, some light pitting around bolster, all through honest wear and shooting during it's time in service.

288764

Cartouches in tact, reasonable sharp edges on the wood, but some wear during it's time in service.

288765

Breech shows normal usage and some pitting from percussion cap blast, stampings visable, but not perfect.

288766

Hard to see, there is a sliver of wood missing along the barrel channel between the front and middle band, no problem to me as it happened during it's time in service, a battle wound. Click on pic for bigger view.

288767

This is what to expect from a $1,500.00 Springfield or contract gun, some better, some worse this Springfield is average for the money.

[rockrat]

I remember going thru a cedar closet at my Grandfathers. Couple of guns there. Shotguns and a Springfield. Don't remember the year (too long ago), probably the 70's, but I remember being drawn towards it. Also remember putting a wood dowel rod down the bore, then comparing it to where the nipple was. Quite a bit of difference. Figured it was still loaded and wondered how many decades it had been sitting that way.
About two weeks before he passed away, I went to look at the Springfield again, as he said earlier he had left his guns to me. The closet was empty. I did end up with a couple of pump shotguns and a 22, but that was it. Gave the 22 to my cousin.

Sure would like to have heard the story of where that Springfield came to be in the closet

[Ithaca Gunner]

Somebody apparently wanted that Springfield and figured you had forgotten about it.

Here's a high condition Enfield P-58 Naval Rifle.

Sharp edges all around, color case, blue, no burn out. Remember, Springfields were Armory Bright during the 1860's.

288768

288769

A few nicks and scratches, but almost as new.

288770

288771

[Ithaca Gunner]

Here's an exception. P-53 Type II ''Windsor'' Enfield made in the U.S.A. by Robbins and Lawerence for the Brits during the Crimean War.

288772

288773

288774

288775

The old gal has seen better days, pitted it's entire length, stock has some serious gouges and oil staining, but remains pretty sharp, Hoyt liner in the bore, lock internals gone over. Not a junker by any means though due to who made it, rarity, date, (1856) use, and simply because I won more individual medals in the N-SSA with it then all the other guns I competed with combined, (over 30). It was and still is my favorite, and priceless.

[Ithaca Gunner]

What is this?

288776

288777

288778

288779

Confederate Fayetteville Rifle type II 1862. Not an original, but a hand made contemporary copy with all the proper markings and cartouches. An original in this condition would possibly bring something in the lower-mid $40,000.00 range. I can't afford an original of one of those to shoot. How do you tell it's a copy at a glance? (besides looking just too good) Look closely at the barrel near the breech, you'll see a faint line going around it, (a patent breech). The barrel gives it away quickly as a modern made Dan Whitacre barrel. Typical price for a good quality hand made contemporary gun would be somewhere around $1,200.00 to around $1,750.00 an extremely accurate copy using some original parts, some high quality modern made parts give the feel of what being issued a new original would have been like in 1862...and it shoots fantastic!

[rfd]

An interesting thread for sure. Thanx to all for sharing,

"Rifle-musket". People of their times sure like to confuse firearm terms, particularly when comparing the long guns of the 18th and 19th centuries, where in the 18th a "musket" (eg, Brown Bess, Fusile, etc) was a military version of the ubiquitous smoothbore/fowler, and a "smooth rifle" was just a smoothbore with a rear sight, and all sported flintlock ignitions. When the good minister Forsyth invented the percussion ignition in the earliest of the 19th era, that sparked lots of long gun changes. Awhile thereafter it appears we had the birth of the "rifle-musket" moniker.

[Ithaca Gunner]

You have the musket-40ish inch barrel smoothbore, U.S. .69 paper patched buck and round ball.

Rifle-musket-40ish inch designed and purpose build rifled barrel with sights. U.S. Models 1855-1861-1861 Special-1863-1864 Using the .58 ''Burton'' bullet. British Pattern 1851-Pattern 1853, using the .577 ''Pritchett'' bullet.

Rifled-musket-40ish inch barrel, originally smoothbore, rifled sometime after, usually sights. U.S. Models 1842 rifled and, (most) sighted-1816 converted, rifled, and sighted using a .69 ''Burton'' style bullet.

They love-love-loved the 17 inch triangular bayonet and the reach a 40ish inch barrel gave in conjunction with it as an infantry arm. The bayonet was so well thought of, it was also called the soldiers, ''side arm''.

The 33 inch usually heaver barreled rifles were called, rifles. Intent was to issue them to the flank companies of a regiment and sometimes skirmishers or sharp shooters. This began to fade with the rifle-musket. Bayonets were of the saber variety up to 10 inches longer than triangular bayonets to make up for the shorter barrels, (these bayonets were unpopular with the troops unless serving as Dragoons-(mounted riflemen) because of the weight and excess length).

I think Thomas Jefferson had something to do with the rough pattern for the first official pattern U.S. rifle, the 1803 Harpers ferry .54 doing so with a half stock and no provision for bayonet for the western expedition of Lewis and Clark, (he didn't want it to look like a military arm, but be of a uniform pattern). The 1817, ''Common rifle'' 1819 Hall rifle, and 1841, ''Mississippi rifle'' all were .54 intended to shoot round ball in a greased patch. The U.S. 1855 and later took the .58 Burton bullet as well as many earlier conversions to .58.

Musketoon-muzzle loading short arm smooth bore or rifled, barrel around 24 inches, usually standard caliber as infantry weapon, issue to ships party, engineers, pioneers, artillery, and cavalry.

[.455 Webley]

This thread has turned into an educational experience. Thank you Ithaca for the eye candy and very descriptive statements on condition.

Thanks to all for the book recommendations. Fullers book is a treasure, glad to have gotten my hands on a good used copy. Gibbons two books "The Destroying Angel " and "The English Cartridge" are fantastic reads that gave me a better perspective and cleared up a lot of my own misconceptions .

[ResearchPress]

There’s a variety of rifle-muskets to choose from and some good advice above on purchasing an original arm. If you can, get to at least hold as many types as you can and check for ‘fit’ by trying in the shooting position you will adopt. Drop on stock varies, as does length. A rifle with more drop on the stock may better suit offhand and a straighter stock suit prone, particular if shooting long range. The sight placement / form also varies, for example the rear sight on the P.53 Enfield being quite close to the eye, while that on the Enfield Short Rifles is further forward - one may give a clearer sight picture than the other.

The following regarding shooting may assist:
Managing the Enfield (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/firearms/british-military-longarms/enfield/managing-the-enfield)
Long Range Shooting with the Military Muzzle Loading Rifle (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/lrml/mmlr-in-great-britain)

Here in the U.K. we shoot muzzle loading military rifle in MLAGB National Championship and other matches at 50 yards to 600 yards.

David

[Ithaca Gunner]

Hello, David. Good to see you here again!

He's quite right about the ''fit'' between Springfield and Enfield stocks. Myself, I kinda naturally fit with an Enfield for 20-some odd years and did my best shooting with one, until I buggered up my shoulder, now an Enfield feels uncomfortable at best while the Springfield now comes up more natural and painless for me, but that's a rare occurence. I'll add I made my best team event, (breakable targets) with a rifle-musket I didn't even like shooting, an 1861, 1862 dated Springfield. It always felt, sloppy to me, but a 4'' hanging tile event proved concentration and skill over the weapon. Somehow the tile had gotten sideways presenting a 1/4'' target at 50yds. Hold, breath, hold, front sight, squeeze and dust! Nailed it!..to my own amazement. The Colt, LG&Y, and Amoskeag Special Model 1861's hold somewhere between a Springfield and an Enfield. As David mentioned above, sight placement. On a Springfield they're pretty far back and young eyes generally work well with them, a P-53 may be an inch or so farther away, and a P-58, a lot farther away and suited for older eyes in my opinion.

All this above information is geared for shooters, if you want what the 1st. Minnesota carried at Gettysburg, that would be an 1861 Springfield type according to E. Coats book on issuance as of early 1863, or possibly a Special Model 1861 as that's what appears to be on their monument at Gettysburg.

I finally got a photo of the other side of the monument, they did make good effort to present the arms the Regiments used during the battle on the monuments, and that looks very much a Special Model 1861 to me rather than a Springfield or contract 1861. Possibly either is correct though. Click on the photo for a larger view, you'll see a curved butstock and ''S'' shaped hammer typical of the Special Model 1861.

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