Swaging 40/s&w brass to make 45/acp full jacket 210/gr tc nose bullets, 1000/pc lot

[KAYDADOG]

As promised here is the second 1000 piece lot I wanted to complete in my spare time.
Because there are so many cycles to complete I work only about two hours at a time.

Using 40/S&W mixed cases to make 45/ACP 210/grain TC-nose, full jacketed bullets.
These come out very consistent using 147/gr cores with a finished weight of 210/gr +/- 2/gr.
For 45/ACP target shooting at short range I don't think +/- several grains will ever be noticed.

These took about ten hours to complete using my hydraulic press and there are a few steps to get a finished bullet.
This caliber and most others cost about $35-$40 per 1000 bullets. For me that's what justifies making your own.
To purchase something comparable can easily cost $250-$400 for 1000 bullets.
Component costs right now are way to high even if you can find what you need. I don't see it getting any better for years, if then.
I'll be working on a second 1000 piece lot to stock up.

Steps involved to make:
SWAGE CORE WIRE
CUT CORES
ANNEAL BRASS
FLARE BRASS CASE
SEAT CORES
FINISH WITH NOSE POINT
CLEAN AND DRY FINISHED BULLETS
ADD CANNELURE GROOVE
READY TO LOAD TO MAKE FINISHED ROUND

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If anyone wants any further information let me know.
Previous comments were appreciated that support this hobby.

Thank You

[para45lda]

I'd love to see your process.

Especially home made setups. Human ingenuity thrives on this site.

Thanks for your post.

Wes

[dverna]

Your cost seems low. .40 brass was around $35/1000 last time I bought some...may be higher now. Lead is well over $1/ lb and you have used about 20 lbs of lead...so another $20+. Looks more like $55-60/1000.

Never good to base costs on what you paid for stuff years ago. I use replacement cost unless I have a lifetime supply. And even then, I will sell stuff if people want to pay silly prices for stuff.

[KAYDADOG]

Based on your last sentence your more concerned about what it cost for me to make swaged bullets versus the information I'm giving others on this site to review.
Matter of fact I may have a lifetime supply of components.
Currently 12,000 rounds of 40/S&W purchased when brass was cheap, not like at today's prices.
Probably 2500/lbs of lead, some free some at $0.50 per pound.
Pretty much a lifetime supply to make 45/ACP bullets and all the other calibers.

As far as the cost, what I stated is correct.
I will never need to purchase any of these components in my lifetime to make any caliber bullet.

For everyone else I grew up learning as much as I could about everything. Finally got my Elec/Engr. Degree and worked on Automated Equipment, designing and programming them for over twenty years. From everything learned over time I could now build and automate my own equipment within reason to make swaging bullets as easily as possible. Everyone has a budget and I do understand that. To make 1000 piece lots of bullets I don't see myself making them on a manual reloading press. Almost started that way eight years ago but decided to spend the time and make my own automated hydraulic press and automated induction Annealer. I have thousands invested in material but my time is free. This has been a very satisfying hobby. When you can build equipment and get everything to work then it's all worth the time and effort.

Thank You

[dverna]

Based on your last sentence your more concerned about what it cost for me to make swaged bullets versus the information I'm giving others on this site to review.
Matter of fact I may have a lifetime supply of components.
Currently 12,000 rounds of 40/S&W purchased when brass was cheap, not like at today's prices.
Probably 2500/lbs of lead, some free some at $0.50 per pound.
Pretty much a lifetime supply to make 45/ACP bullets and all the other calibers.

As far as the cost, what I stated is correct.
I will never need to purchase any of these components in my lifetime to make any caliber bullet.

For everyone else I grew up learning as much as I could about everything. Finally got my Elec/Engr. Degree and worked on Automated Equipment, designing and programming them for over twenty years. From everything learned over time I could now build and automate my own equipment within reason to make swaging bullets as easily as possible. Everyone has a budget and I do understand that. To make 1000 piece lots of bullets I don't see myself making them on a manual reloading press. Almost started that way eight years ago but decided to spend the time and make my own automated hydraulic press and automated induction Annealer. I have thousands invested in material but my time is free. This has been a very satisfying hobby. When you can build equipment and get everything to work then it's all worth the time and effort.

Thank You

So, it looks like I was correct?

BTW, I am also engineer but got out of “real” engineering decades ago. There was a lot more money to be made managing other engineers and eventually companies than designing neat stuff.

Would love to see pictures of the machines you have designed and built. You make fine bullets.

[rbuck351]

I make a 270gr jacketed bullet from 40S&W cases for my 41mag. I anneal the cases then size them through a push through home made sizer. Next I push them into a 308 sizer die with a specific length punch to get the nose area tipped in a specific amount. Then I set them on a flat piece that fits in place of a shell holder in a press and fill them with melted lead. Then push them up against a piece of 7/8 x 14 redi rod turned flat on the end. I don,t have the press or dies to swag cases larger but it's easy to make them smaller.
My son brought me 800+ pounds of soft lead and I worked as a RO for Corrections where we shot 40 S&W. So already having everything I need for making these bullets and never going to use that much soft lead or 40 S&W cases, they cost me nothing but time, a bit of electricity, and a couple pieces of scrap steel. If I was using material that had to be replaced, then I would use replacement costs.

[KAYDADOG]

When you have the right equipment the finished product will come out equal if not better than a factory bullet.
I may start to work on a lot of 44/Mag bullets using copper jackets, have about 12/K from RCE before he stopped making them.
With my setup you will think they look like factory bullets. Using cases for jackets still work as well just look different.
40-S&W cases also work as good because with the heavier bullets the full case length can be used.
If the case has to be trimmed I won't make that weight bullet. Just to much extra time involved.
Had that issue making 300/gr 50/AE bullets using 45/ACP cases for jackets.
Finally was able to use the full case length to get a good finished bullet without trimming.
Did try using 45/Gap shorter brass. Couldn't get the case to expand enough to get any finished usable bearing surface.
Applying higher pressure just tore the cases apart. The base of the case would never expand and just tore out at that point.
Just sold off the lot I purchased to recover some of the cost.
Sometimes you need to experiment to see what works and what doesn't.

As far as pictures I probably wouldn't post any until several years before I sell off everything. That might be awhile.

[Sasquatch-1]

The fun part about using .40 S&W brass is the expressions you see on peoples' faces when they find the remains at the base of a steel plate target. I call them range stars.

As a side note...I can pick up enough 40 brass off the range that I shoot at that I will never have to buy any for this purpose.

[ReloaderFred]

The fun part about using .40 S&W brass is the expressions you see on peoples' faces when they find the remains at the base of a steel plate target. I call them range stars.

As a side note...I can pick up enough 40 brass off the range that I shoot at that I will never have to buy any for this purpose.

If you think that's funny, you should have seen the looks on the reps' faces from Sierra Bullets when I gave them some of my .429" bullets made from .40 S&W brass at the SHOT Show a few years ago. The looks on their faces was priceless, but after some discussion they agreed that it was a viable solution for the home hobbyist. The word they settled on was "innovative"..

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Rfeustel]

Do you clean after annealing (citric acid bath)? Do you use swage lube and, if so, do you clean the jackets and cores before seating? I’m new to the process. Thanks.

[ReloaderFred]

The cleaner the brass before each step, the better quality bullet you'll end up with. At least that's been my experience.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[KAYDADOG]

Rfeustl, I use to clean my brass after Induction annealing but found out it wasn't really necessary.
All my brass has been previously cleaned and annealing at 750/deg just discolors the brass.
The last 2000 rounds here that were made were not cleaned after annealing.
The discoloration doesn't hurt anything.
The cases have to be lubed and I just use spray lube or Corbin's swage lube.
You never want tot put dry cases in core seating dies or point forming dies, very little is needed.
Once the cases are lightly lubed for core seating, they do not need to be lubed again for point forming.
Cleaning with soap and citric acid when done the cases turn out looking bright and shiny, like in the pictures.

I guess if you want to clean after annealing that's everyone's choice.

[Sasquatch-1]

Do you clean after annealing (citric acid bath)? Do you use swage lube and, if so, do you clean the jackets and cores before seating? I’m new to the process. Thanks.

When I anneal I use a torch and anneal each piece individually. The torch leaves a black mark on the brass. As stated by Kaydadog, I don't think it really affects anything. Sometimes I throw them in the wet tumbler to get get the marks off and sometimes I don't.

I definitely lube when seating the core and leave the lube on through point forming. I barely dip my finger in the lube and rub together with thumb and it is good for 3 to 5 bullets. I use a home made lube I made several years ago. I think the formula was a 50/50 mix of lanolin and castor oil. Don't hold me to that. If interested do a little research on the formula.

I don't think you need to clean the lube off. To me it can act as a bullet lube.

Also the swage lube makes an excellent case sizing lube and does need to be cleaned off after sizing cases.

[rustyshooter]

Do you trim your .40 cases? If so, what length? I have had success with the old CH4D .45 swage dies. My latest are both .228gr I just got a cannelure tool which will be nice to add for the heavier boolits for the Rossi.

[Sasquatch-1]

Do you trim your .40 cases? If so, what length? I have had success with the old CH4D .45 swage dies. My latest are both .228gr I just got a cannelure tool which will be nice to add for the heavier boolits for the Rossi.

First off, those are real pretty bullets.

Check out this thread. Post #3 is how I trim. Just remember to trim before annealing.

Trimming Brass for Swaging
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?315221-Trimming-Brass-for-swaging

[ausrobbo]

I’m not sure if I should raise this here, but brass jacketed bullets in handguns are banned by the ATF.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-bans-all-ammo-manufactured-from-brass-which-can-be-used-in-a-pistol/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[KAYDADOG]

rustyshooter, in my #7 post I stated I do not trim brass and will not make a bullet that requires it to be trimmed.
There's more than one additional step involved if you have to trim. The case ID and OD have to be deburred after trimming.
Using the full length of the 40/S&W to make 210/gr 45/ACP bullets works out almost perfect.
The case mouth actually gets rolled in giving a very consistent finished look. I've tried many different punch depth settings to see what works and what doesn't. This setup is pretty much dialed in and will probably never change.

I've experimented in the past trimming some cases to see what the finished bullet would look like. Everything I currently swage I will never have to do any trimming. This is only my take because when your doing 500 or 1000 piece lots the time to complete that many bullets just gets longer and longer to complete.

[TyGuy]

I’m not sure if I should raise this here, but brass jacketed bullets in handguns are banned by the ATF.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-bans-all-ammo-manufactured-from-brass-which-can-be-used-in-a-pistol/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The projectiles referenced in the linked article are machined from solid brass, not brass jacketed. Totally different animal in the eyes of the .GOVs

[rustyshooter]

First off, those are real pretty bullets.

Check out this thread. Post #3 is how I trim. Just remember to trim before annealing.

Trimming Brass for Swaging
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?315221-Trimming-Brass-for-swaging

Thanks. Those obviously are from factory jackets. I have a 5 gal. bucket of .40’s is why I inquired about trimming. As mentioned by kaydadog deburring after will be VERY time consuming. But if I’m not mistaken these 2 profile tips is all I can do with these dies. I’ll have to see once I get into it. I like the idea of annealing each case to cherry red as I have no way to anneal on a large scale. My oven clean mode doesn’t work. lol

[Sasquatch-1]

Thanks. Those obviously are from factory jackets. I have a 5 gal. bucket of .40’s is why I inquired about trimming. As mentioned by kaydadog deburring after will be VERY time consuming. But if I’m not mistaken these 2 profile tips is all I can do with these dies. I’ll have to see once I get into it. I like the idea of annealing each case to cherry red as I have no way to anneal on a large scale. My oven clean mode doesn’t work. lol

As you proceed you will find that the entire process is time consuming. I have swaged 44's with and without trimming. I am willing to take the extra time, 1, because I like the look better, 2, I think it delivers slightly better expansion. No scientific data behind #2 just my opinion.
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[fivegunner]

Great post thank you.

[rustyshooter]

As you proceed you will find that the entire process is time consuming. I have swaged 44's with and without trimming. I am willing to take the extra time, 1, because I like the look better, 2, I think it delivers slightly better expansion. No scientific data behind #2 just my opinion.
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What do you use to “catch”/recover your boolits?

[Sasquatch-1]

What do you use to “catch”/recover your boolits?

The two on the left (now mind you this was a while ago) I think came out of the berm when mining lead. The one on the right I believe cam from a bowling pin.

Also, if I remember correctly, The bullets are 240 grn. with 22 grns. of W296. I can't remember if I shot them out of a 7.5" SBH or a 9.5" SRH.

[Rick459]

here is a video of a friends YT channel that i sent some .45acp bullets made with .40s&w cases for jackets using a .243 sizing die that i modified to test in his balistic gel. also i sent him some lead swaged bullets using the C&H 101 swage dies. the results were suprising. the cores were made from Lyman #2 mixture so they were fairly hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQZdJucYcl8