Finally got my M1A!!

[inspector_17]

Yep, finally got my M1A. 22" barrel and synthetic stock. really looking forward to shooting it. Now to reloading. I have plenty of 308 brass, but have a question regarding 7.62 brass: I know the walls in 7.62 are thicker meaning less interior volume. So can I reduce the amount of powder by a couple of grains or more or should I use a different powder? Already using BLC-2 in my 308 bolt and AR, so this is hopefully going to be my go to powder. Will eventually be using the Lee 160 grn gc.

[downzero]

M1As, like M1 Garands before them, really ought to only use loads that are designed for them at the velocities they are designed for. I would start low, use a chrono, and duplicate military loads for that rifle. I would not try to push the velocity upward.

308 and 7.62 cases all have different capacities. Let the chrono be your guide. Don't assume the case has a lower capacity just because it's labeled 7.62x51. It may not.

[Winger Ed.]

They don't seem to mention it in the newer reloading books,
but in the old days- all manuals said to reduce your powder charge listed in the book by one full grain when using GI brass.

The best loads I've found with my M1A has been with GI FMJ bullet pulls, or 150-ish grain SPs
pushed along with Win748.

For short range plinking, a 170 cast RN with enough IMR 4198 to lock the bolt open on the last round does well too.

[starnbar]

150 to 168 grain fmj IMR 4895 LRP LRM I have thousands through my M1A and Garands

[hc18flyer]

My 9th addition Hornady Guide has a section specific to 'Service Rifles. Maybe I can get you the info? hc18flyer

[bimus]

What I use in my 308's has worked for me

All loads shot through a chronograph

Factory Winchester 7.62 mm 147 FMJ
M1a Scout squad 2655 FPS
Remington 700 24 inch barrel 2757 FPS
HK 91 2539 FPS


44 grains IMR 4064 147 grain FMJ
M1A scout squad R-P brass 2621 FPS MIL brass 2640
Remington 700 24 inch barrel R-P brass 2751 FPS
HK91 R-P brass 2524 MIL brass 2529
All FPS where averages

[Butzbach]

Do yourself a favor and join this forum.

https://www.m14br.com/

[charlie b]

And here is some general .308 data with some references to milsurp brass and specs.

https://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

[NuJudge]

Best repository of loading data for M1A: http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm
The best target bullets are from Sierra, and here's what they have to say: https://www.sierrabullets.com/reload-basics/reloading-for-semi-autos-and-service-rifles/
Read everything you can find written by Zediker: http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf
Another forum that would be good to look at: http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/
Bruce B, here on this forum, had the best thread I have seen on cast bullets in the M1A: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3558-7-62x51-NATO-(-308-WCF)-in-the-Springfield-M1A

[inspector_17]

Thank You everybody. Geez, I love this forum!

[iron brigade]

Here you go

http://www.provenreloads-handloads.com

My m1 A loaded loves H 4895 and 168 hornady match
Well that didn't work the way it should have.
Go to menu then articles and scroll way down. You'll find old school 308 loads

[fastdadio]

I just posted this up in a different thread recently, but, here it is again. Good stuff for service rifles.
https://www.bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html
I load H4895 under Sierra Match King 165s, and for hunting I use the same load/weight with Game Kings, which I believe are the same or very close in BC which makes sighting in for hunting very simple. I also use the Game Kings on occasion in my 30-30 and 06.

[Buck Shot]

Might as well start looking for a jug of 4895 now, it might take a while!

[dogmower]

40-43 grains of IMR 4895 with Lake City Brass and 168 grain match bullets works great in mine.

[fastdadio]

40-43 grains of IMR 4895 with Lake City Brass and 168 grain match bullets works great in mine.

40.7 to 41 grs. has been my sweet spot with the Sierra's.

[Buckshot]

.............I have a SA with a stainless NM bbl, but it's not match bedded or anything. I wanted to be able to take it apart if I have to, and not worry about the bedding. I have three M1 Garands. Two '43 produced SA's and a '55 HRA. Some may laugh, but the Garands were all eager to please, but this M1A was an equine of an entirely different hue.

I read all the "Danger Will Robinson" warnings about possible primer issues, and possible commercial brass problems also. So far no problems. I should have bought a lottery ticket at the same time I bought 1K LC-18, and 1K LC-19 7.62x51 milsurp brass. They were all primed (YAY!) and had the black asphalt sealant in the case necks (which turned out to be a PITA). This was all like 6 hours before the Chinese Communist Whuhan virus BS erupted, and all the IDIOTS and MORONS lost their freaking minds and ran around in circles crying, "MY GOD, MY GOD, we're all gonna die".

In any event, I suppose the reason these lots of military brass was surplused was due to primer issues, otherwise the brass was great, but primer performance not so much. Glad I'm not big on sitting in front of the IDIOT BOX (wife takes care of all the TV watching) so I ran all the brass through the Dillon to de-prime. Then they got tumbled (rotary) in really hot water with concrete floor cleaner and stainless pins added. They were absolutely dazzling. It was kinda like a second freaking career but got it finished. Then I ran them all past a primer pocket swager to get the pockets ready.

I was always one to partake of the surplus market so I have several jugs of milsurp 4895 AND WC846, which also was a powder used in the 7.62x51. Having several friends who were also casters and reloaders, we could practically put together some truckload orders in years past. Another was 4475, which is now commercial production and labeled 5744. Speed is/was similar to 3031. Not being bashful about stocking up I had quite an assortment of primers on hand. Paying close attention to what I'd been told I laid in a good supply of those CCI #34's to go with the rest. The bullets used in testing were Hornady #3037 150gr FMJBT all from the same lot. All seated to have a nice crimp applied into the crimp groove. Then a test was performed a couple weeks later.
The load for them all was 43.0grs of Canister IMR 4895, same bullets & powder for all, just a different primer for each batch of 20 rounds.

FIRST UP: were the UNIX-GINEX (Serbia Milspec) primers. These things required a BUNCH of effort to seat. AVG 2772 fps ES 71. All 20 rounds fired, no problem.
SECOND UP: CCI #34 Mil Spec primers. A little effort to seat. Had 4 fail to fire. Retry and 3 fired on 2nd hit. One wouldn't go off at all. 2765 FPS. Also produced the highest extreme spread of 103 fps.
THIRD UP: RUSSIAN PMC. Okay to seat. 19 fired, 20th fired on 2nd hit. 2765 FPS, ES 58 FPS.
FOURTH UP: FEDERAL LR MAGNUM: Easy to seat, all 20 fired first time. 2821 FPS, ES 85 FPS
FIFTH UP: WLR STD PRIMER: SEATED normally all 20 fired normally. 2799 FPS, ES 70 FPS.

Winchester factory 7.62x51 Factory Brown box. Caseheads stamped WMA-16. 19 of 20 fired. 1 dud. 2823 FPS, ES, 95 FPS.

That magazine on the M1A is nice, and maybe I'll get it figured out, but my lord! Those Garands were sure eager to please compared to THIS contraption! :holysheep

..................Buckshot

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Gotta love them Garands, don't you? :D No complaints here about the M1As either, but somehow I never get mine out of storage, and keep an M1 handy all the time. As for the M14 (M1A) magazine, the Italians got the right answer with the BM-59.

DG

[7br]

.............I have a SA with a stainless NM bbl, but it's not match bedded or anything. I wanted to be able to take it apart if I have to, and not worry about the bedding. I have three M1 Garands. Two '43 produced SA's and a '55 HRA. Some may laugh, but the Garands were all eager to please, but this M1A was an equine of an entirely different hue.

I read all the "Danger Will Robinson" warnings about possible primer issues, and possible commercial brass problems also. So far no problems. I should have bought a lottery ticket at the same time I bought 1K LC-18, and 1K LC-19 7.62x51 milsurp brass. They were all primed (YAY!) and had the black asphalt sealant in the case necks (which turned out to be a PITA). This was all like 6 hours before the Chinese Communist Whuhan virus BS erupted, and all the IDIOTS and MORONS lost their freaking minds and ran around in circles crying, "MY GOD, MY GOD, we're all gonna die".

In any event, I suppose the reason these lots of military brass was surplused was due to primer issues, otherwise the brass was great, but primer performance not so much. Glad I'm not big on sitting in front of the IDIOT BOX (wife takes care of all the TV watching) so I ran all the brass through the Dillon to de-prime. Then they got tumbled (rotary) in really hot water with concrete floor cleaner and stainless pins added. They were absolutely dazzling. It was kinda like a second freaking career but got it finished. Then I ran them all past a primer pocket swager to get the pockets ready.

I was always one to partake of the surplus market so I have several jugs of milsurp 4895 AND WC846, which also was a powder used in the 7.62x51. Having several friends who were also casters and reloaders, we could practically put together some truckload orders in years past. Another was 4475, which is now commercial production and labeled 5744. Speed is/was similar to 3031. Not being bashful about stocking up I had quite an assortment of primers on hand. Paying close attention to what I'd been told I laid in a good supply of those CCI #34's to go with the rest. The bullets used in testing were Hornady #3037 150gr FMJBT all from the same lot. All seated to have a nice crimp applied into the crimp groove. Then a test was performed a couple weeks later.
The load for them all was 43.0grs of Canister IMR 4895, same bullets & powder for all, just a different primer for each batch of 20 rounds.

FIRST UP: were the UNIX-GINEX (Serbia Milspec) primers. These things required a BUNCH of effort to seat. AVG 2772 fps ES 71. All 20 rounds fired, no problem.
SECOND UP: CCI #34 Mil Spec primers. A little effort to seat. Had 4 fail to fire. Retry and 3 fired on 2nd hit. One wouldn't go off at all. 2765 FPS. Also produced the highest extreme spread of 103 fps.
THIRD UP: RUSSIAN PMC. Okay to seat. 19 fired, 20th fired on 2nd hit. 2765 FPS, ES 58 FPS.
FOURTH UP: FEDERAL LR MAGNUM: Easy to seat, all 20 fired first time. 2821 FPS, ES 85 FPS
FIFTH UP: WLR STD PRIMER: SEATED normally all 20 fired normally. 2799 FPS, ES 70 FPS.

Winchester factory 7.62x51 Factory Brown box. Caseheads stamped WMA-16. 19 of 20 fired. 1 dud. 2823 FPS, ES, 95 FPS.

That magazine on the M1A is nice, and maybe I'll get it figured out, but my lord! Those Garands were sure eager to please compared to THIS contraption! :holysheep

..................BuckshotBuckshot has gone soft. He is shooting a military rifle that is less than 100 years old that he didn't restock from a blank made from reclaimed pallet wood in a chambering that he doesn't have to turn individual cases from raw brass stock. I am shocked. Of course, if I had a tenth of the talent that Buckshot has, I wouldn't be commenting on this thread.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[flint45]

I don’t know about anyone else but my M 1A is a brass eater two to three reloads and get case head separations and no I don’t resize them to much.

[Buck Shot]

THIRD UP: RUSSIAN PMC. Okay to seat. 19 fired, 20th fired on 2nd hit. 2765 FPS, ES 58 FPS.


Gotta love those Russian primers. I get good consistency out of the Tula and/or Wolf SRMs in my AR service rifle too.

But, I guess now they're banned because RUSSIAN COLLUSION!!!1!!1!1! or, I dunno, the Chinese cut a better deal with Chore Boy Biden for "the Big Guy"

[Larry Gibson]

Been shooting M14/M14A1s since '64 and M1As since early '70s. Been reloading for them since the early '70s and have loaded thousands of rounds for them. No idea why some have so many problems with them other than they read too much internet misinformation, myths and old wives' tales.

The number of misfires buckshot had in his above post tells me one of several things is the problem;

The SS NM barrel has very tight headspace for the cases he bought and sized. Given all 20 rounds of the factory fired I suspect his reloads (some of them) may have just a tudge too long case headspace for the chamber. That would allow the bolt to not completely close. The bolt slightly not closed would result in a light hammer strike resulting in the misfire. The bolt may have closed sufficiently on the subsequent tries as the case shoulder may have been "set back" enough by the two or more chambering actions. Insufficient case sizing is the most common cause of misfires with reloads in the M1A.

The rifle chamber may be minimal as it is a "match barrel". That would exasperate the headspace issue with many dies, especially if they are adjusted in the press so the ram "cams over".

The use of a RCBS 308 Winchester X-die, properly adjusted, is to be much recommended. A SB or "AR" is not needed. The use of the X-die will increase case life dramatically over any other FL die. I have loaded thousand of 7.62 rounds (commercial and LC along with other makes) for use in my own Match M1A and rack grade M1A along with use in M14s and M14A1s with the X-Die and have yet to lose a case to incipient case separation. [flint45: 3-5 firings per case was about the max firings per case with other FL dies]. I lose cases now from split necks usually around 18 - 20+ firings (annealing would help with that) or from the grass brass gobbler.

Here is a test I conducted years ago when the X-die was first introduced:

RCBS X-DIES: A TEST

By Larry M. Gibson


Surprisingly, there was little fanfare with the introduction of RCBS’s X-Dies. All I saw were small blurbs in the trade magazines and mention of them in Rick Jamison’s Shooting Times column. Advertised to reduce or eliminate case stretch the question is; do they? My real interest was: Will they reduce case stretch, i.e. increase case life, of 7.62 NATO (that’s .308 WIN to you non-mil types) cases fired in M14/M1A’s?

The number of reloadings per case for M14/M1A’s is probably the worst of any rifle/cartridge combination short of the .303 Lee Enfield family. Incipient head separation is the reason for case loss. My experience with rack grade M14/M1A’s is five good firings per case with the sixth being a “throwaway”. This only if the brass was fired in a bolt gun or M14/M1A to begin with. A match M14/M1A with a tight “match” chamber may get 1-2 more firings but more often not. If surplus oncefired brass is used the first firing was more than likely done in a machine gun and only 1-2 reloadings/firings are possible before head separation.

Most head separations can be identified as a speckled crack forming around the case just ahead of the web at the expansion ring. This crack is sometimes quite obvious. Then on some cases the head will separate from the case on ejection. Many times both parts of the separated case are ejected. But sometimes only the head is ejected leaving the front half of the case in the chamber. The rifle picks up the next round attempting to chamber it and things get jammed up. Not good! The other question here; is there gas cutting damage to the chamber?

What causes this incipient head separation to happen? Simply put, on firing, the case expands to grip the chamber walls sealing off the gas pressure. When the bullet leaves the barrel pressures are reduced and the case contracts (not to its original dimensions) releasing it’s grip on the chamber walls and allowing extraction. However, it appears that the M14/M1A begins extraction prior to the pressure dropping completely. The cases do not contract as much as they would if fired in a bolt action for instance. Compounding the problem is the mil-specs for military chambers are somewhat generous in their diameter dimension to allow for functional reliability during combat conditions. When full-length resizing (necessary for M14/M1A) case walls are squeezed in first. This pushes the shoulder forward. The shoulder is then set back by the FL die and the brass flows forward into and elongating the neck. This increases the case length on each resizing considerably. Also, since the brass at the expansion ring expanded and was squeezed in and forward during resizing the case gets progressively thinner in that specific area. The result is, eventually, a head separation at that thinning location. Most mil-spec (US) chambers allow for a maximum case length of about 2.045”. I, like most M14/M1A users, have found trimming unnecessary. Incipient case head separation will occur, and cases discarded, before maximum case length is reached and trimming is necessary.

Are these RCBS X-Dies a cure for this? I decided to use my rack grade M1A to put them to the test. The issue GI barrel has quite a generous mil-spec chamber with headspace being within tolerance. This usually results in the fifth firing being the “throwaway” for brass in this rifle. It has untold thousands of rounds through it, many rapid fire. Accuracy capability is 2 1/2-3 MOA with M118 Special Ball or equivalent reload. This would be the best “worst case” test rifle. All rounds would be fired with the rifle loading from the magazine in normal semi-auto function. Slow fire single loading technique would not be used.

For ammunition I selected 10 rounds of LC 92 M118 Special Ball. A check for concentricity revealed a runout of .011” for one round with the others being .004-.007”.

My M118 equivalent load is:

BRASS: The 10 LC 92 cases from the selected M118 Special Ball
PRIMER: Winchester WLR
POWDWER: H4895 – 41gr
BULLET: M118 174gr
CARTRIDGE OAL: 2.8”

Other than deburring the flash hole, chamfering the case mouth and removing the primer pocket crimp, there was no special “case preparation” done. Cases were measured after each resizing with the minimum to maximum case lengths recorded. Concentricity was checked after each loading. Two cases (marked and tracked) consistently had .004-.005” runout with all others being .0005-.003” throughout the test. Neck thickness (outside diameter) was measured after each loading to check for brass flow into the neck area.

The test would be concluded based on any one of these criteria:

Any sign of incipient head separation.
Case buckled or dimensionally damaged/deformed during resizing.
Split neck or body.
Case length exceeding 2.045”.
Loose primer pockets.
Neck thickening to cause excessive runout (.010”).

Drastic deterioration of accuracy. (6th, 12th and 18th groups will
be fired in Fulton Armory Match M1A to verify accuracy)
Malfunctions caused by damaged (dinged up) cases.

All test firing was conducted at Tacoma Rifle and Revolver range.
The range has solid cement benches, which were used with sandbag rests front and rear. A 100 yard reduced “A” bull target was used. All targets were at 100 yards. I set up the Oehler 35P to chronograph all rounds fired for each 10 shot string. But as the test went on, and on, and on I quit after the 10th string. Chronograph results were consistent and showed no variation other than that normally expected. The LC 92 M118 averaged 2600 FPS and the M118 equivalent reload averaged 2575 FPS for the subsequent 9 ten shot strings chronographed.

The RCBS X-Die was installed in my Pacific single stage press and adjusted as per the instructions. It’s really quite easy. These dies differ from other FL dies in the dimension and design of the decapping rod. The diameter of the rod is larger and appears to act as a mandrill of sorts. There is a shoulder on it, which controls the length as the case. Apparently the case is prevented from stretching by the case mouth butting against this shoulder. Thus the decapping rod must be carefully adjusted as per the instructions. This shoulder is the key to the success of the die.

I found on the second resizing that the expander was really getting hard to pull through the necks. Also, the lengths of the cases were varying more than I thought they should. Case lubing technique was changed to standing the cases in a tray. They were then sprayed lightly with Dillon case lube. With this method the necks (lube gets sprayed lightly into the case mouth) pulled over the expander quite easily and the uniformity of case length dramatically improved. Cases are cleaned again to remove the lube. This should also remove the lube from the inside of the case neck.

Throughout the test case length never exceeded 2.027” and actually remained quite consistent. After the 12th resizing the necks had begun to thicken by about .001” at the shoulder to taper forward about 1/3 of the way to the case mouth. However, this did not adversely effect concentricity or accuracy.

The case rims got a little beat up but there were no malfunctions of any kind. This included the 2 firings in the match chamber M1A. Primer pockets remained tight throughout the test. I thought the case mouths would require rechamfering but they did not. Accuracy remained consistent with the rack grade M1A. The LC 92 M118 ten shot group was 2.8”. The last (15th) ten shot group with the M118 equivalent load was 2.4”. The average of groups 2-15 being 2.7”. Groups 6 and 12 were fired with the match M1A to verify the accuracy and both were 1.6”.

The test was concluded after the 15th firing based on incipient head separation. One case developed that slight speckled circle at the expansion ring. There was no clear-cut crack and probably no gas cutting happened. I may or may not continue the test with the rest of the cases.

Tabulated below are the measurements after each resizing:

RESIZING MINIMUM MAXIMUM INCREASE
CASE CASE IN CASE
LENGTH LENGTH LENGTH

1 2.013 2.019

2 2.021 2.025 .006

3 2.025 2.027 .002

4 2.025 2.027 .000

5 2.022 2.027 .000

6 2.023 2.025 -.002

7 2.023 2.025 .000

8 2.024 2.026 .001

9 2.024 2.027 .001

10 2.025 2.027 .000

11 2.025 2.027 .000

12 2.024 2.026 -.001

13 2.025 2.026 .000

14 2.024 2.027 .001


Case length evened out at the third resizing and remained fairly consistent. Interestingly #’s 6 & 12 that were fired in the match M1A show a decrease in length! At #12 is where I detected a thickening (.001”) of the case necks in the shoulder area which tapered forward. Again this did not effect concentricity or accuracy.

Questions not addressed in this test:

1. Case life when used in match chambers or bolt guns?

2. Case life of cases already fired several times?

3. Case life of surplus once-fired (in machine guns) cases?

4. Case life of civilian manufactured(Rem,Win,Fed,PMC,et all) cases?

The answers to these questions will probably have results as positive, if not more so, than this test.

My technique for loading M14/M1A ammo now will probably be as follows:

1. Clean cases
2. Stand cases in loading trays and spray lightly with Dillon case lube.
3. Size with RCBS X-Die using Pacific single stage press.
4. Clean cases. Clean primer pockets. (On 1st resizing prep cases by: remove primer crimp, deburr flash hole, turn necks, trim to uniform length and chamfer case mouth). Conduct visual inspection for defects (split necks, head separation, etc.).
5. Load on Dillon 550B. Use a Bonanza neck size die or a Redding bushing die at station 1. This may or may not be necessary. The idea here is to iron out any dents the second cleaning may have caused in the case mouth and maybe uniform neck tension on the bullet.

This limited test revealed that; using the RCBS X-Dies, when reloading for the M14/M1A, one may expect 3 times or more firings per case as when using standard dies. I have been using Bonanza Benchrest FL Dies prior to this. I’ve never found the need for small base dies, as some recommend, for they really shorten case life.

This increase of case life is, in my opinion, truly astounding. Also, it appears case trimming is unnecessary. I would hope RCBS would make them in a wider array of caliber’s than currently available. I will buy more of them. When I think of the thousands of 5-6 times fired brass I have thrown out … Oh well!

[Buckshot]

.............Well, it appears to me that I'll glom onto one of those Magic RCBS - X dies. Thanks Larry. That was a buttload of work you did. Not only all that time spent with the brass, but the shooting also claims it's share. Nice of you to pass all that along.

The newly acquired "3rd Garand" hasn't made a range trip yet. Due to a forestry closure due to a fire, the range won't be open again until the 17th. The action on this'n is a SA Feb 43 manufacture and all the parts are SA (of the same era) but the barrel is a nice H&R dated 3-54.

Oh, and speaking of older "Previous "80's & 90's" importations, I have been selling some of them off since it's not the 6 mile jaunt to the range that it "Usta wuz", and the traffic is, ah, plentiful in both directions. I've done well price wise, realizing 6 -8 times what I'd paid for them. But of course our paper money isn't worth squat these days. The sales have been slow. I think that is because it's missing 30 round detachable magazines and all that perforated aluminum that goes along with today's rifles.

................Buckshot