Open Source Guns?

[Daekar]

I was thinking a bit after reading today's Open Source Defense newsletter, where they pointed out that the AR-15 platform is a de facto open standard. I will be honest, I don't like ARs, but I have never been more intrigued by them as I am after having them described that way.

Are there any other guns that would qualify for such a moniker? It seems remarkable that there isn't an open source design for break action or bolt action rifles.

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[megasupermagnum]

Do you mean De Facto Standard? I'm not sure that is quite the way to describe an AR-15. I'm pretty sure the SKS and AK-47 are at least as much of a standard, and probably more so worldwide.

[Daekar]

Do you mean De Facto Standard? I'm not sure that is quite the way to describe an AR-15. I'm pretty sure the SKS and AK-47 are at least as much of a standard, and probably more so worldwide.

LOL yes, "de facto"... God I hate typing on a phone.

So that's interesting, what makes you feel that the SKS and AK-47 are different? I wasn't aware that the blueprints for making them were widely available like the AR, but maybe I just haven't been paying attention!

[downzero]

LOL yes, "de facto"... God I hate typing on a phone.

So that's interesting, what makes you feel that the SKS and AK-47 are different? I wasn't aware that the blueprints for making them were widely available like the AR, but maybe I just haven't been paying attention!

They are so simple that they look like they were designed to be manufactured by peasants at gunpoint. They make the AR look like the most advanced skyscraper ever built.

Back to your original question, even the 2011 patents expired now. All sorts of stuff out there is copied. Look at the Taurus Beretta and S&W clones, even.

[Daekar]

They are so simple that they look like they were designed to be manufactured by peasants at gunpoint. They make the AR look like the most advanced skyscraper ever built.

Back to your original question, even the 2011 patents expired now. All sorts of stuff out there is copied. Look at the Taurus Beretta and S&W clones, even.

Oh, I agree that they are simple, but simple and open are not the same thing. I mean, did Russia release the schematics for the SKS? I didn't know they were in current production. I assume that AK schematics are easy to get, but that's an assumption...

So maybe this is a symptom of my ignorance, but I assumed the Taurus copies of those guns were not parts interchangeable, simply copies of the general layout and aesthetic, or reverse engineered.

I guess I would love to see the gun equivalent of an open source design for other items, where there community works on the project and the designs and specifications are all together in one place.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm pretty sure there's home gunsmiths in the middle east who have been making a living building AK's. I've not heard the same thing about an AR.

[BunkTheory]

since your are trying to figure out a way to get gun plans....

the de facto open source weapon that i have ever thought of was from the phillipines. they used a nail as firing pin, attached it to a steel rod that was inside one pipe and the barrel was another section of pipe. used as single shot shot gun.

Then are are alot of books a person can purchase online, that will DEFINITELY put them on a government watch list that will demonstrate how to create a felony called "illegal automatic weapon".


The ONLY genuine opensource firearm using the standard concept of open source and no copy right infringement would be muzzle loaders and bolt action rifles.

[Handloader109]

no copyright on a gun. Patent yes, and AR is past patent infringement. I wouldn't really call it open source, but I guess it would be as close as any. The 1911 would be similar, but there is no easy caliber changes that are anywhere like the AR. The AK, by design is uncomplicated, but not easily changed from caliber to caliber. And as it's receiver is stamped, they aren't really interchangeable from maker to maker. I'd have to say the AR is in a class by itself as far as commercial firearms are concerned. No other can change from rimfire to a dozen different center fire by changing out half of the gun in a minute.

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[Daekar]

since your are trying to figure out a way to get gun plans....

the de facto open source weapon that i have ever thought of was from the phillipines. they used a nail as firing pin, attached it to a steel rod that was inside one pipe and the barrel was another section of pipe. used as single shot shot gun.

Then are are alot of books a person can purchase online, that will DEFINITELY put them on a government watch list that will demonstrate how to create a felony called "illegal automatic weapon".


The ONLY genuine opensource firearm using the standard concept of open source and no copy right infringement would be muzzle loaders and bolt action rifles.

So actually I don't have any interest in making any gun myself... I have what I need and only the suppressor awaiting ATF approval is lacking. It will come eventually. If I wanted to make a slamfire 12 gauge single shot, I could pull that off without asking someone for schematics.

I was thinking about the possible benefit to industry and shooters of open platforms beyond the AR. As was pointed out in the newsletter, that type of thing tends to be a catalyst for innovation and an opportunity for businesses.

[1006]

I think it was CNC machining that made parts for the AR and and other blue print pattern gun parts as standard and interchangeable as they are today. Before computers made sure that parts measured all had the same critical dimensions, every manufacturer had slight variations of a blueprinted design.

Ak’s and SKS’s are (I am guessing)probably not as well standardized, for drop in part applications.

[Traffer]

As far as building your own gun...All guns are open source as long as you don't go into business selling them. Anything that is past patent protection date can be replicated. I don't know how long that period is but most gun designs are over 50 years old.

[downzero]

As far as building your own gun...All guns are open source as long as you don't go into business selling them. Anything that is past patent protection date can be replicated. I don't know how long that period is but most gun designs are over 50 years old.

I'm not an expert but I believe the longest patents in the United States are issued for a period of 20 years.

The actual blueprints to the AR receiver, I'm sure are available somewhere on the Internet. I suspect that those who are making their own are buying a commercial example and using some sort of scanner to replicate it, but there might even be publicly available sources (FOIA and similar) where such information could be compelled in software form if you reallllly had to have it in that manner.

There are no real secrets with firearms, communist bloc, commercial/American or otherwise. All of that stuff could be reproduced with the right equipment.

[dverna]

You can build anything you desire, even something patented. The patent only protects the patent holder from the item being sold for a profit.

Many years ago, one of our competitors design a very efficient machine. We “infringed” on the patent and produced the item for use on nearly all out production lines in many locations. There was nothing they could do as we did not sell it....just used it.

Let’s say a company has a patent on a unique type of suppressor. You could get the tax stamps and produce a dozen for every gun you own. As long as you do not sell them, there is nothing they can do.

[downzero]

Many years ago, one of our competitors design a very efficient machine. We “infringed” on the patent and produced the item for use on nearly all out production lines in many locations. There was nothing they could do as we did not sell it....just used it.

I'm far from an expert, but I suspect they could have prevailed if you benefited from the invention. There probably just weren't enough damages for them to think it was worthwhile. Or they weren't aware.

[TyGuy]

They are so simple that they look like they were designed to be manufactured by peasants at gunpoint. They make the AR look like the most advanced skyscraper ever built.

Back to your original question, even the 2011 patents expired now. All sorts of stuff out there is copied. Look at the Taurus Beretta and S&W clones, even.

While these commie rifles are very simple and can be (and commonly are) resurrected in a garage, making certain parts from scratch is beyond the abilities of the average Joe. The trunnions and bolts are forged and heat treated. This is critical to longevity, as many who have bought the American made rifles with cast trunnions have learned the hard way. Rifling a barrel is another task that is a daunting challenge to those of us without the proper tools and know-how.

That’s not to say that it can’t be done, merely that design simplicity does not always equate to easy manufacturing. As pointed out, the Pakistanis and Filipinos, among others, have been cranking out hand made knock-off firearms for generations. I’m not sure how willing I would be to test fire one though…

[Ed K]

You can build anything you desire, even something patented. The patent only protects the patent holder from the item being sold for a profit.

Many years ago, one of our competitors design a very efficient machine. We “infringed” on the patent and produced the item for use on nearly all out production lines in many locations. There was nothing they could do as we did not sell it....just used it.

Let’s say a company has a patent on a unique type of suppressor. You could get the tax stamps and produce a dozen for every gun you own. As long as you do not sell them, there is nothing they can do.

Patent rights are exclusive rights: they give the owner the right to exclude others from making, using, and selling the content claimed in the patent.

Editing to add that if you are doing something non-commercially and in the spirit of this thread then there is little to worry about. Infringing on a patent is not the same as breaking the law: the patent holder's only recourse is civil court and at considerable cost - not something they are likely to consider even if they were to find out about it. Now an act of infringment by a commercial entity brings along a lot of risk...

[john.k]

Open source generally is taken to mean the patent is out of time.......as to use,I was once hit with a patent infringement lawsuit ,as a party to an infringement of a detail of a patent......The device patented was a tube bending machine for exhaust shops ,and was only available as part of the (costly) franchise contract.....The detail infringed was a chain that was flexible when pulled,but rigid when pushed..........So despite the detail not being made for sale,it was protected............An adverse finding is not a joke like a parking ticket.....the penalties can run into millions.

[444ttd]

the russians have done ar15 thing already. they call it ADAR 2-15


https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/05/24/adar-2-15-russian-ar-15/

also they have brought out promtekhnologiya llc. rifle
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/could-russia%E2%80%99s-new-ar-15-rifle-become-next-ak-47-180056

[Hick]

AR-15 might be the Open Source standard for something that shoots-- but not for something that accurate hits.

[downzero]

AR-15 might be the Open Source standard for something that shoots-- but not for something that accurate hits.

Huh? The AR-15 is probably the most inherently accurate semi auto rifle design of all time.

[1006]

$ for $, the AR 15 is a very accurate.

Rock River Arms factory gun, cost today less than $1400.

Result of 20 shots at 600 yards with a rest and a good scope. Powder loaded on a progressive press-no hand weigh.

288371

[dbosman]

I nominate the British Sten. Parts were manufactured in small shops and garages so there wasn't a factory to bomb. Distributed manufacturing.
One used to be able to purchase parts kits at gun shows forty or fifty years ago. The barrel seemed to be the only difficult part.

[lksmith]

where they pointed out that the AR-15 platform is a de facto open standard. I will be honest, I don't like ARs, but I have never been more intrigued by them as I am after having them described that way.

.

Ar15 is like a grown man's erector set. The popularity of them is the near infinite variations that can be made by even a minimally skilled person and one of the widest ranges of compatible "calibers". you can get uppers from 22lr to 50BMG that fit the same lower so you can have the same trigger on multiple calibers, even cross bows. Pretty sure you can also get muzzleloader, shotgun and airgun uppers for it, I just haven't run across those