Slug Gun False muzzle

[Whitesmoke]

G day gents

A muzzle loading shooting friend has a .38 cal Slug gun. He obtained it 40 years ago, did bugger all with it, and now has no idea where the false muzzle for the rifle, is. The barrel makes me think that someone was missing a truck axle at the time it was made.

Since I own a lathe I have been approached about making another false muzzle.Lucky me!. I have endeavored to post as much info as I can in the hope you guys are able to assist.

The barrel mikes out at 28.65 mms ( thats 1.128" ) diameter. I have a piece of 43 mm ( 1.69") diameter cold rolled round steel bar, so the current rush of poo to the brain, is to counter bore the said 43mm bar so it drops over the muzzle and stops short of the front sight that is set some 32 ( 1.25") mm back from the muzzle face.

I have a couple of slugs he cast :cbpour: for it and they measure 9.32( .366' ) and 9.33 mms diameters respectively.x26.5mm ( 1.04") long flat nose rounded top and 6 grooves.

The rifle bore ( measured with a telescopic gauge ) is 9.44 (0.371") .The rifling grooves are hard to measure but I'm guesssing 0.005" deep
I am supposing that the discrepancy shall be made up with paper patching.

I did some internet searching and found one .38 cal slug gun that was patched with freezer wrap. I have raided my ladys roll of freezer paper for a sample and if measures very thin at .03mm. If I haven't bolloxed up the conversion I think thats around .001".

I dunno,maybe I have the wrong freezer wrap.

Another question is boring the false muzzle.I have been requested to make it the same diameter as the slug. Not sure as to drill it and finish with a lathe tool or just ream it. If I could get my sticky fingers on a suitable adjustable reamer ?

Nobody down under seems to shoot them any more and the old blokes who shot them aren't with us any more. Me and my mate, now being bona fide old blokes are qualified in that respect to take on this project.It will keep us from getting into mischief.

If you have some slug gun information and comments you think may be of use to us ,I sure would like to hear about it.

Thanks
Whitesmoke

[mozeppa]

G'day Bluesmoke!

it's 5:49 in the morning here in oklahoma U.S.A.

i have no info to help you with ....just wanted to say that i enjoyed reading your post with the Australian touch.
i have an interest in what you are doing and will be watching what others say as well.

regards to ya down under! , mike

[country gent]

The hardest part of this job will be he 2 or 3 dowel pins and holes that mount the false muzzle to the barrel in alignment, these need to be exact on size location and square to be easily removable by hand. Next you need a "Flag" pin or wide blade so it blocks sights if left on. As to bore here its easy enough to drill and bore close to size then lapp to finish and size.

[jaguarxk120]

Many times the false muzzle was actually part of the barrel it self. The barrel maker drilled, reamed, and rifled the false muzzle with
the barrel. Then the muzzle was reamed to take the bullet.
Good Luck!!

[Whitesmoke]

The hardest part of this job will be he 2 or 3 dowel pins and holes that mount the false muzzle to the barrel in alignment, these need to be exact on size location and square to be easily removable by hand. Next you need a "Flag" pin or wide blade so it blocks sights if left on. As to bore here its easy enough to drill and bore close to size then lapp to finish and size.


I forgot to mention ,the barrel is already drilled for the pins.

As you say the hard part will be working at the alignment.I reckon I can turn 3 drop in "points", like small centre pop ends similar to those used in marking out for woodwork dowels.

Once the bores are aligned using a short length of brass turned bar for bore alignment, I can mark the holes in the new false muzzle.

Fortunately I do have a copy of Captain Ned Roberts book The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle which has much information and many illustrations.

However it just presents information but has nothing on the how to's.

Thanks for the help,so far.

Bluesmoke.

[oldracer]

Please see the long winded post I put in the Gun Smith area as the holes are drilled (3 or 4) then the barrel has a couple inches cut off and then the pins added. The rifling has to match exact on both parts once done.
John

[charlie b]

I guess the problem I see is how do you know you can drill/ream a hole perfectly concentric with the existing barrel? That's the reason the factory would cut the existing barrel. One that I remember reading about would cut and pin the false muzzle first, then ream and rifle the barrel. Otherwise when the barrel end was cut the rifling would have a very small 'step'.

[Whitesmoke]

Guys
There was never any intention of rifling the False muzzle. That train left the station a very long time ago. Ideally if we had that option that is what we would do,but that's not possible.

To provide false muzzle bore alignment to the barrel, my intention is to turn a brass bar to the land to land bore size of the barrel and use that OD as the finish ID for the false muzzle.
The barrel already has 3 pin holes, so I will turn some points to set in the holes and use them as one does for woodwork dowel marking out. Think of the pointed buttons the woodies place in a dowel hole and press that into the adjoining wooden part. The holes are fairly big 4mm or or so so turning a high carbon steel point and hardening it won't be all that difficult.

With the bores aligned with the brass bar, all it should take is a tap on the false muzzle to mark three pop points and then drill the pin locations on the false muzzle. I shall be without doubt doing some practice runs. We don;t have a sheep station riding on the outcome just the satisfaction of having a good attempt at it.

Thanks
Whitesmoke

[pietro]

.

I'd leave it be, since the point of a false muzzle is to start/rifle a projectile perfectly inline with the bore in the interest of better accuracy - not possible without matching rifling inside the false muzzle.

If it's just wanted for show, drill the bore oversize & install a sight blocker atop it - remove it when actually shooting.



Alternately, the pin holes in the muzzle that accept a false muzzle can be drilled to a depth of (say) 2", then cut off the barrel end ahead of the hole(s) depth.

The result is a true false muzzle, original to the gun, that needs a bit of fitment


Install locator pins and a sight blocking pin after first aligning the rifling, to be good to go.

.

[JSnover]

As I understand it the other benefit was to avoid damage to the crown/muzzle. The false muzzle would take the abuse when loading or cleaning.

[mooman76]

I also thought it was to make starting easier.

[Whitesmoke]

Thanks for your words of wisdom thus far ,gents.


.Alternately, the pin holes in the muzzle that accept a false muzzle can be drilled to a depth of (say) 2", then cut off the barrel end ahead of the hole(s) depth.

.
If one thinks of the rifling as a long stretched out thread, cutting the barrel after drilling the pin holes will remove a segment of that thread ( the saw kerf).

From what I do understand a rifled false muzzle matched to the rifle bore by the pins will result in a mis-match-, an offset where( expressed in degrees of rotation) the rifling lands meet.

I think you mean to say is that, the barrel is only rifled after the false muzzle segment is match drilled and fitted to the barrel and the false muzzle and barrel assembly are rifled as a whole unit.


We don't have the tools,equipment and/or experience to rebore and re-rifle the gun so for now an approach of
smooth bore for false muzzle has to be utilised as it is all we are capable of.

Only time will tell.
I started muzzleloading in the 90's but my friend started in the 70's and has two national tiles to his name using a scratch built flint lock rifle with components purchased from TOW. Certainly he and I are not novices and have been around slug guns but not owned and shot them in competition.

Half the fun is experimenting to understand what works and what does not.

Cheers

[bedbugbilly]

You do realize that if you do all the work to make a false muzzle, that your friend will find the original one stashed away somewhere. :-)

[KCSO]

Once again a false muzzle is made and rifled with the barrel. Pin Holes drilled and barrel cut after reaming and BEFORE rifling so the False muzzle will be 100% in sync with the bore of the barrel. You can make a straight starter after the barrel is finished but not a proper false muzzle.

[Woodnbow]

Thanks for your words of wisdom thus far ,gents.



.
If one thinks of the rifling as a long stretched out thread, cutting the barrel after drilling the pin holes will remove a segment of that thread ( the saw kerf).

From what I do understand a rifled false muzzle matched to the rifle bore by the pins will result in a mis-match-, an offset where( expressed in degrees of rotation) the rifling lands meet.

I think you mean to say is that, the barrel is only rifled after the false muzzle segment is match drilled and fitted to the barrel and the false muzzle and barrel assembly are rifled as a whole unit.


We don't have the tools,equipment and/or experience to rebore and re-rifle the gun so for now an approach of
smooth bore for false muzzle has to be utilised as it is all we are capable of.

Only time will tell.
I started muzzleloading in the 90's but my friend started in the 70's and has two national tiles to his name using a scratch built flint lock rifle with components purchased from TOW. Certainly he and I are not novices and have been around slug guns but not owned and shot them in competition.

Half the fun is experimenting to understand what works and what does not.

Cheers

You’re certainly approaching the project (a faux false muzzle?) with a sense of humor and some common sense. It’s already a success…

[country gent]

its much easier to drill the 3 hole pattern in the solid blanks end then rifle and cut off. Than to match dead on 3 existing holes. You will need to make sure the machine is dead True and square and pay close attention to back lash and dimensions.

[Geezer in NH]

IMHO it is Junk without the false muzzle so no matter what you do to make a new one cannot make it any worse than what it is.

Myself I would turn the muzzle round and make a straight line seater for it.

I have to wonder how the false muzzle got separated only a dufass could manage that..

[charlie b]

Use the same kind of formula that others use for target muzzle loaders with PP or lubed bullets.

Soft alloy bullets, heavy charges. PP or lubed bullets sized to a slip fit. The bullet should slide down with just the weight of the ramrod. Card and/or lubed felt wad over powder.

[Whitesmoke]

Myself I would turn the muzzle round and make a straight line seater for it.

I have to wonder how the false muzzle got separated only a dufass could manage that..


I am not sure what a straight line seater is.Perhaps you might care to elaborate on that one.


As for the false muzzle there was a time years back when my friend was in hospital and an another non shooter friend moved some junk for him and its believed the muzzle may have been mistaken for scrap. The "helpful " friend has passed on is no longer around to ask.
You might hold hard on those sorts of accusations,OK?

We have decided we don't need the alignment pins as there is no " false Muzzle" rifling to align to the rifle. The front of the FM block will be counter bored to slip over the rifle muzzle for 1 1/4" or so.

Again the sole purpose of the unrifled FM is to keep the slug straight and true as it enters the rifle muzzle.

We have no idea if or not it will work but its better than nothing. I'll report back when we have something to report.

Thanks

[JSnover]

IMHO it is Junk without the false muzzle so no matter what you do to make a new one cannot make it any worse than what it is.

Myself I would turn the muzzle round and make a straight line seater for it.

I have to wonder how the false muzzle got separated only a dufass could manage that..

I'd bet some very talented, experienced shooters sent their false muzzles downrange at least once. Like dryballing or double-loading, things happen.

[Nobade]

In a way this sort of applies...
Recently some customers have been getting me to build smokeless muzzleloaders based on modern bolt action rifles. Not my thing, but it pays the bills. They want to shoot thin jacketed bullets at bore diameter which evidently are soft enough to bump up if loaded heavily enough. And of course they want a muzzle brake, since these rifles have tremendous recoil. So I have learned that a brake with a fairly large diameter bore can accommodate a turned funnel which not only allows them to get the powder charge in, but also functions as a false muzzle and allows the bullet to be started straight with no effort using a fitted short starter. Of course you wouldn't want a brake on your slug gun, but the concept is somewhat similar to what you're doing. Just make enough engagement area to keep everything straight and you should be just fine.

[Geezer in NH]

I am not sure what a straight line seater is.Perhaps you might care to elaborate on that one.


As for the false muzzle there was a time years back when my friend was in hospital and an another non shooter friend moved some junk for him and its believed the muzzle may have been mistaken for scrap. The "helpful " friend has passed on is no longer around to ask.
You might hold hard on those sorts of accusations,OK?

We have decided we don't need the alignment pins as there is no " false Muzzle" rifling to align to the rifle. The front of the FM block will be counter bored to slip over the rifle muzzle for 1 1/4" or so.

Again the sole purpose of the unrifled FM is to keep the slug straight and true as it enters the rifle muzzle.

We have no idea if or not it will work but its better than nothing. I'll report back when we have something to report.

ThanksYou just explained what a straight line seater is. NOT a false muzzle.

[navyvet]

If you go with a straight line seater, you might also need to crown the muzzle.