Your .38 Heavy Duty Propellants of Choice?

[Bigslug]

So I've decided to start playing with my 175 grain NOE/Ranch Dog tumble lubers in earnest.

I started a load workup in my 4" GP-100 and made it up to about 12 grains of 2400 in a .357 case in front of a CCI SPM cap. Seems to leave a lot of unburned powder and the recoil - while manageable - is creeping out of the "rapid fire combat" category, and into the "slow fire hunting" zone. Not 100% sure of where I want to be yet - only that I don't want to be in the rip-snort, max load area, but I want to be well off the reservation of standard .38 loads as well.

Another concern is that my S&W's will chamber this bullet seated to the crimp groove in a .357 case, but the ogive runs into the chamber throats on my Rugers and doesn't QUIIIIIITE reliably allow "plunk" chambering without a slight shove.

Sooooooo. . .wondering if smaller charges of 2400 will burn cleaner in the shorter .38 case, or if you have a better "hot .38" propellant choice.

[dverna]

You might be better off with Unique in the .38 cases. Like you, full .357 is a bit too much (I am a wouse).

There are some good threads (IIRC from guys like Outpost and Gibson) about "hot" .38 loads that might help.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I don’t think 2400 will burn very clean for you staying in 38 Special pressure. Yes 2400 will shoot in 38 Spl, but even with the 175 grain boolits I expect you’ll have to settle on seeing some ash grains in your 38 barrel and cylinder.

Herco is where I’d go. It excels in the Special cases. It’s bulky so it fills the cases decently which leads to consistent ignition. The powder can’t get too far from the primer. It’s about a grain slower than Unique, so at the same pressure, Herco gives about a grain more velocity. Herco burns clean at Special pressures.

Also, since recoil is part of your consideration, Herco will give you less recoil than 2400 at the same boolit velocity. The recoil is based on the sum of the boolit weight and powder weight. So less powder weight, less recoil for the same velocity. Herco will probably get you all the recoil and enough velocity for .38 Special to make you happy.

I’m not a fan of the 175 or heavier boolits in 38’s, especially the slow twist S&W’s (1 in 18.75”). I’ve not been able to get group size down small enough to make me happy. They do penetrate, but really a bit too much for me. I prefer the performance I get with 140-150 grain boolits in my .38 Special S&W’s.

[Mk42gunner]

I tend to load the .38 Special just as a .38 Special, not even to +P levels. Mainly because I have a few .38 Speial only revolvers and don't want to over stress them. I mainly use either 231 or Bullseye for nice economical target/ plinking loads.

For .357 Magnum, most of my loads have been with 2400, although H110/296 works fine in some applications. I am finally getting to the point that I want to settle on one standardized load for my medium bore revolvers.

I figure if I need more power than a normal for the caliber load, it is time to move to a more powerful gun.

Robert

[georgerkahn]

Mine is a Smith & Wesson (early 1980s) Model 64, and my bullet of choice is clone not too different from your Night Owl -- most weighing in at 170 grains. My "load of choice" for "hot load" is 4.4 grains of Bullseye; same load downed to an even four grains for "regular" shooting. A have used 2400 extensively, often remarking that 3031 is my "universal rifle" powder and 2400 has that distinction for handguns.
However, a late afternoon/early evening shoot a few decades back illustrating the quantity of 2400 which appeared to be burning after bullet was expelled from 4-inch barrel... started my rethinking to another powder. Having used Bullseye in my wadcutter Model 52 loading, I thought, "why not?".
And, have been using the 4.0 / 4.4 Bullseye loading for this (and similar) .38 S&W Special revolver with good accuracy and a lead/burnt powder-clean barrel.
BEST!
geo

[Bigslug]

Georgekhan, any idea on the velocity for your Bullseye loadings? I do like the stuff

For light fiddling around loads, I have the ability to rain bullets out of an old 10-cavity H&G #50 wadcutter mold. This 175 grain option (with a second mold in an HP version) will be to dial up the "THUD" factor. I do not own a .38 Special revolver that these could be dropped into, and if I ever do acquire one, it's likely to be a historical thing that would only get the wadcutters anyway. These heavy Ranch Dog bullets will be shot primarily in GP-100's and N-frame Smiths, with the occasional foray into SP-101's and .357-rated M640's.

[jonp]

I've tried a number of 38sp powders under heavy lead including a Blue Dot load I got from an old manual. I've settled on Unique or Red Dot/Bullseye or something in that range for loads that drive as fast as safe in the 38sp. Blue Dot worked but was very dirty. All the powders seem to come in around the same velocity so I look for the lowest pressure loads.

I have not tried anything heavier than 158gr in the 38sp leaving those for my 357Mag. For 38sp loads I stop in the 140gr range.

[30calflash]

Spent a little time last year on 38-44 loads to be fired from N and L frame Smiths. I used Unique and HS6 exclusively for trials. Accuracy was decent, I think more testing would be needed for refinements. I used data from the Lee manual and others here who used the loads in 357's. BTW some 357 starting loads are listed in manuals at 38+p levels, so you aren't going blindly into it. I used those for starters.

And it's not just the powder charge but the seating depth you need to watch. Some loads in the Lyman manual had 38 and 357 loads with .015 difference in seating depth. I loaded my 358429's to the crimp groove and the 358156 to the 2nd groove, to allow more room to work at lower pressure. Keep an eye on seating depth with your chosen projectile.

Both N and L frames were 4" barrels, didn't hit 1000 fps with the loads I tried, which was what I was trying for.

I think some older published 38-44 loads are in the magnum category for performance and pressures. Same goes for some loads by writers from back in the day.

[Outpost75]

.38 Spl. Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”_______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:
_____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd___________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd___________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd___________926 fps, 37 Sd

[georgerkahn]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;5248208]Georgekhan, any idea on the velocity for your Bullseye loadings?]

Kind of embarrassed -- with an Oehler 35p, a PACT, and, a Labradar -- I've never (as yet) chronied these. Kind if a utility load for utility revolvers -- e.g., NOT for my "target" firearms, hence I'm not fussy -- and, that I use these in a bevy of revolvers... Between weather, company here visiting this week -- it may be a few days. BUT, I will hope to chrony them and report. I "paint" primers on the 4.0 rounds with a yellow Sharpie; the 4.4 with blue. I generally carry 2 of the 4.0 followed by 4 of the 4.4... Hence, I should be able to readily chrony (and report) both. geo

[slughammer]

While not 38-44 level, I have used Power Pistol for 38+p loads.

Over the chronograph, 4" 686 with 164gr Saeco 382 and 5.5 power pistol gets 890fps. Just enough thump and just enough gun to absorb it. (Unique at 5.0gr should be similar).

That load could be worked up a notch higher; but it's comfortable and safe for use in my Kframes and occasionally my Jframe.

If you want to use 2400, just ignore the unburnt powder. Run your loads over the chronograph and look at the extreme spread. Much more of the loading story is told by the chronograph.

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[zarrinvz24]

This is interesting, seems the old Colt had consistently higher velocities, which isn’t what I would expect considering it is chambered for 357, and the HD is chambered for 38Spl. Any ideas why this is what happened? Perhaps it’s the throat and bore dimensions? I have many old Colts and they consistently are tighter than the Smith’s.


.38 Spl. Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”_______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:
_____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd___________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd___________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd___________926 fps, 37 Sd

[Outpost75]

This is interesting, seems the old Colt had consistently higher velocities, which isn’t what I would expect considering it is chambered for 357, and the HD is chambered for 38Spl. Any ideas why this is what happened? Perhaps it’s the throat and bore dimensions? I have many old Colts and they consistently are tighter than the Smith’s.

Colt also had tighter cylinder gap of 0.005" vs. 0.008" for the S&W

[358429]

Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

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[Outpost75]

Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

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No. New Service .355 groove diameter with 14-inch twist, .358 cylinder throats.

[zarrinvz24]

Did old Colts have gain twist rifling and choked barrels?

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I have a couple very early Pythons and you can tell the barrel has been lapped and gets tighter towards the muzzle. In the prewar revolvers my observations match Outposts, .355-.356 grooves and consistent .358 cylinder throats. I like to size my boolits .3575.

The reason for my inquiry is that I do not have a prewar .357 and I wondered if Outpost had noticed anything different.

[1006]

I like HS-6 for 38Special heavy loads.

Reference 2400: I have read a few times that it works better with standard primers……Someone else may weigh in on it.

[jonp]

While not 38-44 level, I have used Power Pistol for 38+p loads.

Over the chronograph, 4" 686 with 164gr Saeco 382 and 5.5 power pistol gets 890fps. Just enough thump and just enough gun to absorb it. (Unique at 5.0gr should be similar).

That load could be worked up a notch higher; but it's comfortable and safe for use in my Kframes and occasionally my Jframe.

If you want to use 2400, just ignore the unburnt powder. Run your loads over the chronograph and look at the extreme spread. Much more of the loading story is told by the chronograph.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I tried Power Pistol when my safety director gave me a pound for 40 cal. Good velocity but very flasy

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. Slug- I have experimented a bit for loads in my Heavy Duty and for now have settled on Unique powder. My revolver has a 5" barrel and I chronograph my loads with the 358439HP bullet at a bit over 1000 fps; my loads are about a grain more than top regular .38 loads and only for use in the Heavy Duty S&W (not K frames). I shot a number of these loads in various powder weights and settled on the one which produced the smallest standard deviation in velocity in my revolver (which was also the best accuracy). I tried 2400 powder too but the suggested starting point loads gave over 1200 fps, which is higher than I was looking for. I have not done much shooting yet with the heavier 358429 solid point bullet, and will be still experimenting with other powders to see if I can reach the old Heavy Duty velocities of 1100 fps and still retain the accuracy of the Unique powder loads.

[megasupermagnum]

To be perfectly honest, I don't care one bit about cleanliness, and would gladly shoot 2400. Bluedot would be a good option as well that could work a little better, but I wouldn't expect miracles. I think the suggestion for Herco was a good one, another fantastic choice would be 800X.

[ddixie884]

This is interesting, seems the old Colt had consistently higher velocities, which isn’t what I would expect considering it is chambered for 357, and the HD is chambered for 38Spl. Any ideas why this is what happened? Perhaps it’s the throat and bore dimensions? I have many old Colts and they consistently are tighter than the Smith’s.

I would say a tighter barrel and an extra inch of barrel and a tighter barrel-cylinder gap on the Colt is probably a factor.

[Bigslug]

Did the chrono work yesterday with the loads in .357 brass through a 5" gun. Looks like somewhere around 1000 fps is where this project wants to go, and 10.3 - 10.5 grains of 2400 will accomplish that. . .in a .357 case.

I guess the question now is regarding the best way to get there in a .38 case. 2400 certainly worked for Elmer and less of it should be needed in the smaller case. Also thinking that something faster (Unique) will give the same speeds with less powder mass added to the recoil equation. Anyway, I have a more solidly defined goal now - if that helps you to help me.:drinks:

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have a 2" Ruger SP101 38 that I would feed heavier loads to but it mostly just sits in the safe. My other 38 is a 4" K38 and it gets what's most accurate out of it. A 160 over 3.2 of BE. Just a target or pest load but really fun to shoot. My 3" Model 60 is what I want to perform in practical terms.

[zarrinvz24]

Anyone ever try the lower H110 loads listed in the Cast bullet handbook #4?

[358429]

Anyone ever try the lower H110 loads listed in the Cast bullet handbook #4?I loaded and started testing the higher H110 loadings from #4.

The chrono said that the 172 grain bullet crossed 1100 ft/sec from a 2.25" barrel.

Has any yall used Winchester Autocomp in 38 special? What bullet weights did you try?





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[Outpost75]

....Has any yall used Winchester Autocomp in 38 special? What bullet weights did you try?
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Factory .38 Special +P and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

.38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating____939 fps, 9 Sd_______1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44______994 fps, 23 Sd______1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5grs.AutoComp+P__902 fps, 14 Sd__________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

[358429]

Thank you outpost75.

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[Three44s]

I like HS-6 for 38Special heavy loads.

Reference 2400: I have read a few times that it works better with standard primers……Someone else may weigh in on it.

+10 For HS6!

I would add inside flash hole deburring to improve powder burn.

2400 operates at a lower peak pressure with standard primers than with magnum primers, everything else being equal.

three44s

[Bigslug]

Well, 2400 is officially out in the .38 case experiment. Got decent numbers over the chrono, but the unburned powder manifested itself with a functional liability - crud getting under the extractor on unloading and preventing the revolver from getting back into battery on the next reload. Magnum primers might help, I suppose but one works with what one has.

That ain't gonna fly, so rebooting with Unique. Will know how that works out in a couple weeks.

[1006]

Here is a pic of some older Alliant Data that I have saved:

292394

[gwpercle]

You might want to give Accurate #5 or maybe #7 a try in the 38 Heavy Duty .
Accurate #5 is a bit slower than Unique and has a good pressure / burn rate in the 38 special case .
I have been trying Acc #5 out with 160 gr. cast Wadcutters and so far it seems a good match with a heavy load ... Acc #7 might be even a better match in the 38 HD loads .
Both Accurate #5 and #7 are faster than 2400 but that might be just what you are looking for .
Gary

[Tracy]

To be perfectly honest, I don't care one bit about cleanliness, and would gladly shoot 2400. Bluedot would be a good option as well that could work a little better, but I wouldn't expect miracles. I think the suggestion for Herco was a good one, another fantastic choice would be 800X.

Agreed on both, Herco and 800X. Those are a couple of my favorite powders for heavy .38 Special loads.

[smkummer]

For my 38 plus P, I was going to switch to power pistol over unique until I got some older lots of Win. 571 ( HS-6) and Winchester published a plus P 158 SWC load for it. Clean and measures wonderful. When I run out of it, I’ll go to power pistol if I can get it.

[1006]

W571 is HS-7

W540 is HS-6

[Orchard6]

I’ve been loading the Lee c358-200 rf in 38sp cases with IMR 4227 with great success. 12 grains gets me to 915 fps out of a 4 3/4” barreled Pietta SAA clone and is very accurate and actually shoots to the sights! The bonus is the bullet is long enough that it won’t chamber in any 38sp revolver I have so I can’t mix them up.

[RJM52]

Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.

Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)

Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing

Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated

In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.

Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps

Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115

All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.

...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.

Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...

These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.

From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch

ITEM 20H

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.

This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.

This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.

We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.

➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL

[RJM52]

Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...

The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.

The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.

Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity

148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380

150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps

155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210

No barrel length is listed...


Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)

148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380

150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310

158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240

165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025


I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.

S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps

I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.

As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...

Start low and work up using a chronograph...

Bob

[ddixie884]

Thanx the oldest lyman book I have is the #45. It came out in the early 70s. It is a contemporary of the Speer #8 and has similar loads except for the 4756 loads for .38spl..........

[Tim357]

Chrono'd results of 11.0 A2400 w/158 Lee RNFP gave 1100+ fps from 3 and 4" bbl

[RJM52]

Tim...if you are getting over 1100 fps with a 3" that is impressive...

What guns and what was the velocity difference....

[avogunner]

I tend to load the .38 Special just as a .38 Special, not even to +P levels. Mainly because I have a few .38 Speial only revolvers and don't want to over stress them. I mainly use either 231 or Bullseye for nice economical target/ plinking loads.

For .357 Magnum, most of my loads have been with 2400, although H110/296 works fine in some applications. I am finally getting to the point that I want to settle on one standardized load for my medium bore revolvers.

I figure if I need more power than a normal for the caliber load, it is time to move to a more powerful gun.

Robert

This is exactly my way of thinking too. My 38's are inherited pre-war S&W M&P's and I love shooting them, but they only get cast target loads. For my .357's I've settled on 2400 (I save my dwindling suppy of H110 for the M1 Carbine - where it really shines).
Semper Fi

[Tim357]

Tim...if you are getting over 1100 fps with a 3" that is impressive...

What guns and what was the velocity difference....

Ruger SP101 3" .357 chambered, and S&W 686 4" .357 Chambered. Oddly, the difference between the two was less than 30 fps IIRC. Away from my notes now, but I'll confirm when I get to the house. I've not fired any in .38 Spl chambered arms yet. Also, just because I could, years ago I loaded some 12.5 A2400 .38 Spl loads from Skeeter Skelton. Used Ideal 357446 crimped in center lube groove. Same arms, velocity was near 1300 fps with very low deviation.

[Char-Gar]

Were I to load 38-44 I would start with AA5. A smidge slower than Unique and meters like water. It will give a good clean burn with full charge loads. AA5 has always produced good accuracy for me.

[BunkTheory]

the problems we face now is actually finding powder. sure hodgdon is selling a very limited selection now, but if the only thing they have doesnt do well at less then full elmer or skelton level loads,,, your kind of screwed. And if you gun doesnt like that particular powder, your screwed again.

Its like me and my loading attempts to learn the 38 and 357. Most of my results have been in the 38/44 to bottom 357 magnum land. Have tried powders that are considered the universal choice, and gotten horrid results.

like the bullseye loads for 148 hbwc. cant get less then 6 inch groups double handled slow fire unless i seat them upside down with about 1/8" sticking ouf of the case.... at 5 YARDS.

[Outpost75]

[QUOTE=BunkTheory;5316396...

like the bullseye loads for 148 hbwc. cant get less then 6 inch groups double handled slow fire unless i seat them upside down with about 1/8" sticking ouf of the case.... at 5 YARDS.[/QUOTE]

What manufacturer's bullets are you using, how much Bullseye and what brass and dies are you using? Have you shot your loads off bags? Any HBWC loaded correctly should shoot 2-inch, 12-shot groups off sandbags at 25 yards.

[Bigslug]

Got the science done on the 4" GP-100 yesterday. Unique turns out to be a solid winner:

293237
293238

The 6.1 grain load is where I'm going to settle and it is probably reasonable to regard as max charge considering this was with mixed brass of unknown origin. The 6.7 an 7.0 charges gave a little gas blow-by around the primers. Probably just dandy in better controlled cases or a full-length .357 hull, but 6.1 got my 175 grain slug to the 1000 fps I was looking for, so I feel little need to explore that more deeply.

It's also a very clean combination with the CCI WSP and White Label 45/45/10 lube. A single tug of a fairly loose-fitting Boresnake left the barrel and chambers gleaming like factory new.

:happy dance:

[Eddie Southgate]

Thanx the oldest lyman book I have is the #45. It came out in the early 70s. It is a contemporary of the Speer #8 and has similar loads except for the 4756 loads for .38spl..........

It came out in 1970 . I bought the first one I saw at Clark Hardware in Nashville with birthday money on the 20th of November 1970 . Still using it . It's one of the books I never intend being without . The 100 grain jacketed accuracy load from that edition has been the top performer in every .243 rifle that I have ever tried it in .

[Tim357]

Ruger SP101 3" .357 chambered, and S&W 686 4" .357 Chambered. Oddly, the difference between the two was less than 30 fps IIRC. Away from my notes now, but I'll confirm when I get to the house. I've not fired any in .38 Spl chambered arms yet. Also, just because I could, years ago I loaded some 12.5 A2400 .38 Spl loads from Skeeter Skelton. Used Ideal 357446 crimped in center lube groove. Same arms, velocity was near 1300 fps with very low deviation.

OK, I finally was able to find my notes. The difference between the two revolvers, from 11.0 to 12.0 was never more than 33FPS. 12.0 A2400 was 1163 avg in 3", and 1196 avg in 4" bbl.

Also, I was a mite wrong on the velocity of the 12.5 load. In the 3" bbl it was 1158 avg, with ES of 16 and SD of 5.
The 4" bbl recorded 1219 avg, with ES of 11, and SD of 4.

[RJM52]

...not enough velocity difference to make the .5 grains worth it... May have to try that next time I reload the .38-44...

Is there much unburned powder?

[Outpost75]

Don't have recent data, but many years ago Herco showed promise. These days am using AutoComp

[badguybuster]

Ive been working on Longshot in 38 but havent tried anything over 125 yet

[serger]

I haven't posted since the discussion on heavy .32ACP loads
(thanks Outpost75) but here's piece of one I posted in the S&W
forum a couple days ago about the 6 grains of Herco I use with
a 158gr LSWC :

"Went out Friday between storms to chrony my buds 5gr Red Dot Jeff Cooper load,
but that's another story.

I took some of my Herco loads to see what they actually do. Been shooting them
about 10 years now and finally got to see 'em in action. The bullets I used
were the last of the ones I tumble lubed prior to going with powder coating.

Here's the results of the 5 shot strings:

2" 966fps SD 15.41
3" 1026fps SD 16.88
4" 1077fps SD 15.44

Something I also noted was the sooting was way down. I'm pretty sure it
was because I used a lot heavier crimp than I usually do because of
wanting to use the 2" revolver.

I found this load years ago and now can't find the book I got it out of.
The nearest I can now find is from Sierra's 1978 2nd Edition on page 311.
That one is for the 158gr JSP. It's the one in the middle of the scan and the
second slowest load out of the 6" Colt Trooper they used with that jacketed bullet
rated at 800fps."

For those who use Quickload I guess this is in .357 mag territory and Mr. Gibson's
tests substantiate that. But as a jacketed load the velocity is is down under 850fps.

Herco is a good powder.



293725

[ddixie884]

I'm glad you posted over here as I posted in your thread on the S&W forum. Good data. I also got easy extract and round primers with my Herco loads.

How did the Jeff Cooper Red dot loads go? Thanx.........

[serger]

I'll dig up the data and post it.

[ddixie884]

Is anyone using Longshot for this application?

Larry Gibson ran some tests for me with Rim Rock 158gr swcbb on VVN340 oal 1.500 Rem 1 1/2 primer. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing the results as I think they are useful as .38-44 loads for HDs and .357s. From a 7.9" solid contender barrel; 6gr gave 1109fps and 21,900psi, 6.3gr gave 1159fps and 23,200psi, and 6.5 was 1191 and 26,000psi.

There are a lot of good .38-44 loads in this thread.

[RJM52]

Too much good information here to bother starting another thread....

Took a Heavy Duty and a 649-2 to the range the other day. Don't know why but this batch of 6.0 grains of Unique with the 357156 bullets were going a little slower than my last batch...

Just found some 2400 and do have Longshot that I'm going to try... AAC7 or 9 may get a try also...

Interesting in looking at a 1952 GUN DIGEST under the Colt firearms section, it lists the .38-44 rounds as acceptable for use in the D frame Detective Special and Police Positive Special. Just looked at the 1968 SHOOTER'S BIBLE and under the Colt D frame section the steel frame Detective Special is still listed as being able to use "High Speed" ammo but the aluminum frame Agent and Cobra "mid-range and regular service loads" only....

There are also four factory loads listed in the 1952 catalog:
Winchester 158 Lead and Metal Piercing at 1175 from a 5"
Remington 158 Lead at 1115 and Hi-Way Master Metal Piercing 110 grain at 1330...out of a 5"

In the 1968 only two loadings:
Winchester: 150 grain Metal piercing @ 1080/6"
Remington: 158 grain Lead @ 1080/6"

Bob

[Hi-Speed]

I duplicate 1950s/1960s 38 Special “Hi-Speed” and “Super X” factory loads (these are not the hotter 1930s vintage 38-44 loads as the “Rem/UMC 38-44s”… these hot loads were discontinued shortly after WW2). Remington “Hi-Speed” 38 Specials were listed in Remington catalogs at 1,090 fps in 6 inch factory test barrels…these loads eventually became the 38 Special +P 158 gr lead loading starting in the early/mid 1970s (Remington catalog at the time listed its +P designated loads at 915 fps from 4 inch vented barrels and still 1,090 fps in their 6 inch solid test barrels).


You can obtained these ballistics using Power Pistol with Speer 38 Spl +P 158 gr lead reloading data.

[Tim357]

Did the chrono work yesterday with the loads in .357 brass through a 5" gun. Looks like somewhere around 1000 fps is where this project wants to go, and 10.3 - 10.5 grains of 2400 will accomplish that. . .in a .357 case.

I guess the question now is regarding the best way to get there in a .38 case. 2400 certainly worked for Elmer and less of it should be needed in the smaller case. Also thinking that something faster (Unique) will give the same speeds with less powder mass added to the recoil equation. Anyway, I have a more solidly defined goal now - if that helps you to help me.:drinks:

In regards to 2400 in .38 cases, I chronographed some years ago for a buddy his 2400 loads. 10 gr 2400, Lee 158 RNFP showed 912 fps in a .357 S&W 686

[RJM52]

CWlongshot made some of the 140 grain Lyman Spire Point bullets probably originally made to defeat body armor... As I have a few pounds of SR4756 left I'm just going to expend it where it does the most good...HiSpeed .38 Special rounds...

Ran them in two guns...a 1968 Colt Diamondback 2.5" and a S&W Heavy Duty 4"

8.0 grains/1154/1230
8.5 grains/1153/1255
9.0 grains/1192/1307
9.5 grains/1247/1337

With the 8.0 and 8.5 grain loads the cases dropped out of the chambers when inverted. Round primers, zero pressure signs.

With 9.0 grains it was odd...smooth effortless ejection. Round primers on the DB and slight primer firing pin cratering on the HD...and here where it gets real odd...at 9.5 round primers on both guns and zero cratering...just normal firing pin marks...

Found an article the other day that listed the 110 grain Highway Patrol loads...1350 fps from a 5" barrel...

Bob

[ddixie884]

CWlongshot made some of the 140 grain Lyman Spire Point bullets probably originally made to defeat body armor... As I have a few pounds of SR476 left I'm just going to expend it where it does the most good...HiSpeed .38 Special rounds...

Ran them in two guns...a 1968 Colt Diamondback 2.5" and a S&W Heavy Duty 4"

8.0 grains/1154/1230
8.5 grains/1153/1255
9.0 grains/1192/1307
9.5 grains/1247/1337

With the 8.0 and 8.5 grain loads the cases dropped out of the chambers when inverted. Round primers, zero pressure signs.

With 9.0 grains it was odd...smooth effortless ejection. Round primers on the DB and slight primer firing pin cratering on the HD...and here where it gets real odd...at 9.5 round primers on both guns and zero cratering...just normal firing pin marks...

Found an article the other day that listed the 110 grain Highway Patrol loads...1350 fps from a 5" barrel...

Bob

WOW.............. That is pretty hot for a Diamondback but the PP was approved for the 38-44 factory load so.........

[downzero]

My lighter 357 Magnum loads of choice use CFE Pistol. Full magnums use H110/W296. Strong but not quite full magnums use 2400. I do not try to load baby magnum loads in 38 cases. I load it in magnum brass and select the powder for the level of power I want. Something slower than CFE Pistol like AA #7 or Blue Dot will split the baby between my 2400 loads and CFE Pistol loads if that's what you need.

[RJM52]

"Interesting in looking at a 1952 GUN DIGEST under the Colt firearms section, it lists the .38-44 rounds as acceptable for use in the D frame Detective Special and Police Positive Special. Just looked at the 1968 SHOOTER'S BIBLE and under the Colt D frame section the steel frame Detective Special is still listed as being able to use "High Speed" ammo but the aluminum frame Agent and Cobra "mid-range and regular service loads" only...."

If they were approved for the post war Detective Special, they will run in a DB...

[Outpost75]

I can speak authoritatively that a post-1970 light alloy D- frame Colt will last 500 rounds of +P or 100 rounds of PGU/12-B or Q4070 +P+ before it develops end shake to the point of producing misfires. Setting back and refitting a barrel to reduce gap is problematic on a light frame. Unless able to refit a "+" .005" cylinder you are done.

My advice is to limit +P. to 100 rounds spread gently over the life of the gun if you want it to last?, unless you know a factory-trained armorer having access to over sized parts.

[Hi-Speed]

Chronographed VV N340 and 158 gr LSWCHP last month:

Firearm: Ruger 4 5/8 inch NM Blackhawk
Cartridge: 38-44
Bullet: Speer 158 gr LSWCHP
Powder: VV N340
Charge: 6.0 grs
Primer: CCI 500
OAL: 1.455”
Shot#/MV:
1. 997 fps
2. 1,003 fps
3. 1,023 fps
4. 1,009 fps
5. 997 fps
6. 1,008 fps
7. 992 fps
8. 995 fps
9. 1,000 fps
10. 1,001 fps
11. 1,013 fps
12. 1,006 fps

Avg - 1,004 fps
ES - 31

This load can be duplicated with 6.0 grs Power Pistol with 158 gr cast SWC seated 1.440”.

If I need anything more powerful, I’ll use a 357 Magnum…

[Kosh75287]

Alliant 2400 for barrels 4" long and over. Alliant Unique, Herco, BE-86, or AA#5 for shorter barrels.

[Hi-Speed]

…and at least 11.0 grs 2400 with 158 gr bullet (38-44 for 357 Magnums only); otherwise, too much powder residue…I prefer 13.5 grs 2400/158 gr in 357 Magnum cases. I don’t need any other magnum load than this one since it shoots very accurately even with generic Magma mould dropped 158 gr SWCs.

[Char-Gar]

Clean smeen! Unique and 2400...Hercules Powder Company got it right.

[Hi-Speed]

Clean smeen! Unique and 2400...Hercules Powder Company got it right.

Unique is on “the endangered species” list…good luck ever finding it again…

[RJM52]

A friend last week sent me a note about 3:00pm that Mid South Shooter Suuply sent him a notice that morning they had UNIQUE in 8# jugs for $221...went and checked and they were already sold out.

So maybe it is coming back...?

[Kosh75287]

We can only hope...
I use a fair amount of BE-86, which is a perfectly acceptable substitute for Unique (better in some respects). But I've done the most "research" with Unique, and have a better "feel" for what I can do with it.
I'M fearful that Alliant may discontinue Herco, for BE-86, despite their NOT being interchangeable. It's been my experience that, when I've "topped out" on a work-up with Unique, I can often continue with Herco and get a bit more velocity and consistency.

[tejano]

Thanks Hi-Speed, I have both powders on hand so I will try both loads.