Heat treat and PC?

[longcruise]

I'm hoping some of you have tried this and can advise me.

I want to harden my COWW castings AND PC them. It would seem that if I water drop or oven treat them they will simply be annealed in the PC process.

What if they are dropped into cold water straight from the PC oven? Has this been tried and if so what are the results?

[bangerjim]

What "super hardness" do you think you need????? One of major things PC brings is that we no longer need uber-hard alloys like in the old days of casting. That is old school. Today Fit is King! I shoot 9-12 hardness standard alloys + PC up to 2K FPS inn all cals with no leading or problems.

Why do yo think you need to use water hardening?????????????????

Yes, people have water dropped after PC but I have not heard of it gaining anything to speak of. Nothing new around here. You loose most of the water hardening by re-heating your boolits to 400F and then leaving them at that temp for 10-20 minutes. ( I always use 10).

Just mix your alloy for 9-12 (saving expensive alloys!) and PC.

[rancher1913]

yes you can but you need to be able to submerge the whole tray at once otherwise the boolets will stick together and leave bad spots when you break them apart.

[jcren]

I have water dropped right out of the pc oven and it certainly hardens the lead, as it makes it very difficult to size wheel weight bullets. Just a matter if you need that hardness or not.

[charlie b]

Hardening by heat treat also has time factors involved, both the process itself and age related change in hardness.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Before you go to the trouble, determine why you want to do this. When powder coating there is not much need for harder bullets unless you are trying to push for high velocity rifle bullets.

[Huskerguy]

I found this chart helpful, I did not do the work, just copied it. I do not water quench my bullets when pouring them. I have quenched bullets right when taking them out of the oven from coating them. I just grab the tray and slide them right into a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. I have no way of knowing if it really does make the lead harder as I do not test. I also use primarily range lead that tends to run a bit softer but in many thousands of bullets, I have never had a leading problem even with I used 45/45/10. The one advantage of water quenching freshly coated bullets is I can get started sizing them right away. Never had a problem with sticking or bumping them together. I would add that I do not push bullets hard, I don't have the need and I do not load lead for rifle.

TATV Test

Alloy= COWW BHN Hardness Gain
air cooled 12.22
water cooled 27.2
air cooled PC 12.86
air cooled cast/quenched PC 21.62 75%
quenched cast/air cooled PC 14.46 -50%
quenched cast/quenched PC 23.18 -15%

Note: This is dependent on the amount of antimony and arsenic in the alloy.

[longcruise]

Hardening by heat treat also has time factors involved, both the process itself and age related change in hardness.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Before you go to the trouble, determine why you want to do this. When powder coating there is not much need for harder bullets unless you are trying to push for high velocity rifle bullets.

Thanks for that link. :) that is excellent information.

For what im doing now, the AC and aged WW will be fine but I will be playing with some higher velocities in 270 later this year. Pending deciding on a mold.

[longcruise]

I found this chart helpful, I did not do the work, just copied it. I do not water quench my bullets when pouring them. I have quenched bullets right when taking them out of the oven from coating them. I just grab the tray and slide them right into a 5 gallon bucket of cold water. I have no way of knowing if it really does make the lead harder as I do not test. I also use primarily range lead that tends to run a bit softer but in many thousands of bullets, I have never had a leading problem even with I used 45/45/10. The one advantage of water quenching freshly coated bullets is I can get started sizing them right away. Never had a problem with sticking or bumping them together. I would add that I do not push bullets hard, I don't have the need and I do not load lead for rifle.

TATV Test

Alloy= COWW BHN Hardness Gain
air cooled 12.22
water cooled 27.2
air cooled PC 12.86
air cooled cast/quenched PC 21.62 75%
quenched cast/air cooled PC 14.46 -50%
quenched cast/quenched PC 23.18 -15%

Note: This is dependent on the amount of antimony and arsenic in the alloy.

Thanks for that chart. I'm going to play with it later this year. Thinking to get a hardness tester.

[longcruise]

Did some casting and PC today. Mostly getting some 44 stuff ready for September. While at it I PCd some 105 9MM for the little 380. Went ahead and dumped them into cold water then did a pliers squeeze test compared to the same bullet straight from the casting bench. The quenched PC bullets were harder but not a very scientific test.

I'll compare them again in a few weeks.

Also learned that nonstick foil is only nonstick on one side. :groner:

[charlie b]

LOL, I think most of us have had that problem once. That's why I use the silicone baking mats these days.

[longcruise]

I have some of those but I'd have to get them past the war department. :grin:

[30calshooter]

If you want to harden them, drop the powder coated bullets into water when you take them out of the oven when powder coating. It works very well, and there is really no need to drop them into water when casting if you plan to powder coat them later. As others have said, I also no longer water quench pistol or rifle bullets, as I've had no leading with powder coated 45/70 wheel weight cast 350 gr. at 1750 FPS in my sharps rifle. I only water quench buckshot after powder coating as I want that hard, everything else is just cast and powder coated. Alloys vary from pure lead, wheel weights, scrap lead with a little tin and or linotype added. Works fine with no leading when just powder coated.

[hickfu]

I tried water dropping after PC but it made the bullets have a weird texture so the next time I did it I pulled them out and let them cool, later I heat treated them and then water dropped them. Looked a lot better that way.

[longcruise]

I wondered about doing that. I'll try that next time. I did drop some small nines straight from the PC oven and that seems to have worked pretty well.

[Walks]

I've been doing it for a while now. I stand them up to PC & RAPIDLY dump them into a 3/4 full 5gal bucket of cold water.

My SAECO Lead Hardness Tester says there is a definite hardness increase from air cooled to water quenched.

[Dragonheart]

Banger Jim gave you good advice. Just curious, if you PC do you realize you are putting a jacket on the bullet? A very slick jacket, but still a jacket.

[charlie b]

If you aren't going to load a ton of rifle bullets, why not just add some tin to the alloy. Then no need to bother with quenching or age of bullets. Heck, plain WW alloy is probably good for 2000fps with GC and PC. Maybe a bit more depending on caliber and rifling twist.

[longcruise]

I'll be looking to move 270 COWW cast at around 2600 fps. I'll do a pure lead soft point and heat treat straight from the pc oven. What has been posted here and my experiment with the 9mm seems to confirm that the process will work. Of course the proof is in the pudding!

These are some 44 mag that I just loaded. WW and PC then aged for three weeks. I don't think there's any need to heat treat these but I might give it a go just for funsies.

288744

288745

[Nrut]

longcruise,
Out of curiosity which mold are you going to use for .270 project?

[longcruise]

I'm leaning toward the LBT 150 grain. Not many 277 options out there. Lee has a 135 grain but I'm looking for more weight. Custom is an option but probably won't go that route.

[Taterhead]

I PC, size, then heat treat. Easier to size when just cooled from the initial bake. Then back onto the oven and quenched.

To test hardness, I add a couple of uncoated culled bullets to the tray to "bake" along side the coated bullets. Then those get heat treated along with the batch of coated. I figure that since the culls have been subjected to the identical heat cycles and quenching, hardness should be a good proxy for the alloy in the coated bullets. Of course hardness testing with uncoated is much simpler, hence the exercise.