Surplus Powder and Commercial Equivalents

[bearmn56]

With Hogdgdons buying up several powder companies and the general shifting around of the powder manufacturers I have tried to do some research into the various surplus powders and powders manufactured by one manufacturer and offered as cannister powder by another. Here is some of what I have come up with..... I am not guaranteeing this to completely accurate. Remember, companies like Hogdgons do not manufacture powder..... They blend lots of powder to get their cannister powders that are a known buring rate...I suppose most suppliers do this as well.
Winchester makes most of the ball powder in this country. So I will start here:

WC540 Is HS-6 in cannister form
WC571 is HS-7 in cannister form
WC820 is WW296 and H110 in cannister form
WC844 is H335 in cannister form
WC846 is BLC-2 in cannister form
WC852(fast) is H380 in cannister form
WC852 is close to WW748
WC852(slow) is close to H414
WC860, WC870 are very close to H870 and are single based powders
There are a number of powders that are made overseas at this time....Many Accurate powders are made in the Czech Republic. The "extreme" powders offered by Hogdgons are made in Australia. Alliant powders are mostly made in Sweden.
I have come to really like the new "extreme" powders.....I live in Montana and we have nearly 200 degrees spread in temeratures from winter to summer and these powders are nearly insensitive to these extremes.
I hope that others with more info than I have been able to gather will add to this thread.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[Lloyd Smale]

wc820 is aa9 and neither are equivilent to 110/296

[Ricochet]

I don't know whether WC820 "is" either AA #9, 296 or H110, but I've got a lot of it that's closely equivalent to AA #9, and there reportedly have been lots that were very similar to 296/H110. Got to watch out for that lot to lot variability in these surplus Ball powders, it can be huge. For many years, they weren't very good at manufacturing a Ball powder to meet a specification, they got what they got and then decided how to use it and the arsenals and loading companies adjusted their loadings. I read somewhere (probably in some of Ed Harris' writings) that the original H110 was yet another WC Ball powder made for the .30 Carbine, but I forget the number. Might have been WC825. Generally as the last two numbers in a series go up, the burning rate goes down with the WC powders. There are a number of fairly closely parallel powders with different first digits, and I'm not sure what those mean. (Like the above mentioned 852 and 748, for example.)

(What is the meaning of "is?")

[wiljen]

Several of Alliants rifle powders are made in Radford, VA. Some pistol powders are imported from sweden (bofors I think) but a good # of the ATK products are made just up the road a piece.

[Ricochet]

The WC, BTW, originally stood for Western Cartridge, which became Olin Corporation and bought Winchester. St. Marks Powder Company in St. Marks, Florida is the spun off Olin/Winchester-Western Ball powder operation. Ball powders are now made in various places around the world.

[454PB]

Quote:
"I live in Montana and we have nearly 200 degrees spread in temeratures from winter to summer and these powders are nearly insensitive to these extremes."

Wow, where abouts? I've lived in Helena for the last 35 years and have seen a 150 degree extreme spread in that time.

My lot of WC820 matches AAC#9. I have shot with both powders over a chronograph in several different caliber magnum revolvers and they are a statistical match. However, compared side by side, they look different.

My lot of WC860 seems to match H870 load data from reloading manuals, but I have no H870 to compare them to.

I bought two 8 pounders of AA2200 some years ago, and it seems to fall within the approximate burn rate of H322. I wish I had bought more.

[waksupi]

Awww, geez. We aint into wind chill are we? I hate wind chill. I can recall 108 for a high, and minus 47 for a low, registered temperature. But then again, I'm in the Flathead, which is the Banana Belt, as ya know.

You can stretch things here, but not too far!

Just pokin' fun atcha, Bear!

[No_1]

Looks like you are in luck as someone just posted a thread on AA2200. Wonder if it is the same burn rate?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=43055

Robert


Quote:
"I live in Montana and we have nearly 200 degrees spread in temeratures from winter to summer and these powders are nearly insensitive to these extremes."

Wow, where abouts? I've lived in Helena for the last 35 years and have seen a 150 degree extreme spread in that time.

My lot of WC820 matches AAC#9. I have shot with both powders over a chronograph in several different caliber magnum revolvers and they are a statistical match. However, compared side by side, they look different.

My lot of WC860 seems to match H870 load data from reloading manuals, but I have no H870 to compare them to.

I bought two 8 pounders of AA2200 some years ago, and it seems to fall within the approximate burn rate of H322. I wish I had bought more.

[Lloyd Smale]

the first lot i had of 820 was slower then all the others ive had since. It still wasnt as slow as 110. Maybe half way between 110 and aa9. Most other lots have loaded about identical to 9 and the stuff even looks like it and drops out of a powder measure with the same charge weight. Ive done velocity checks on every batch ive gotten along with 3 different batch no.s of aa9 and they over lap. Theres as much differnce batch to batch with the aa9. Id have to say that at least in my testing they shown to be the same powder. Keep in mind that AA does not make powder. they got there bussiness going repackaging surplus powders.
I don't know whether WC820 "is" either AA #9, 296 or H110, but I've got a lot of it that's closely equivalent to AA #9, and there reportedly have been lots that were very similar to 296/H110. Got to watch out for that lot to lot variability in these surplus Ball powders, it can be huge. For many years, they weren't very good at manufacturing a Ball powder to meet a specification, they got what they got and then decided how to use it and the arsenals and loading companies adjusted their loadings. I read somewhere (probably in some of Ed Harris' writings) that the original H110 was yet another WC Ball powder made for the .30 Carbine, but I forget the number. Might have been WC825. Generally as the last two numbers in a series go up, the burning rate goes down with the WC powders. There are a number of fairly closely parallel powders with different first digits, and I'm not sure what those mean. (Like the above mentioned 852 and 748, for example.)

(What is the meaning of "is?")

[bearmn56]

454pb,
I have lived in Helena since 1978. I moved from Florida in 1977. Way too many people moved to FL and much of what I grew up with was ruined. I loved Montana from the first look. I liked the way Montanans did business and started doing the same and thiry years later I still love the place. I love all of the public land that is available to play in. Don't much like what the enviros, the Forest Service and Fish, Wildlife and Parks has been doing, but it is still the last best place.
I once attended a sled dog race in Avon years ago and the thermometer showed -53 degrees Farenheight. Once hunting prairie dogs the thermometer, according to a local rancher, was nearly 110 degrees F. I know Rogers Pass has seen lower than 60 below. Maybe 200 degrees was a little exagerated but not too far off.....:-D
I am a member of the PPSA and love their range on McDonald Pass. I also have several places to shoot on Forest Service around my home. Have been a shooter since I was 4 years old. My dad was a gunsmith for over 50 years.
Bearmn56

[clearwater]

454pb,
I have lived in Helena since 1978. I moved from Florida in 1977. Way too many people moved to FL and much of what I grew up with was ruined. I loved Montana from the first look. I liked the way Montanans did business and started doing the same and thiry years later I still love the place. I love all of the public land that is available to play in. Don't much like what the enviros, the Forest Service and Fish, Wildlife and Parks has been doing, but it is still the last best place.
I once attended a sled dog race in Avon years ago and the thermometer showed -53 degrees Farenheight. Once hunting prairie dogs the thermometer, according to a local rancher, was nearly 110 degrees F. I know Rogers Pass has seen lower than 60 below. Maybe 200 degrees was a little exagerated but not too far off.....:-D
I am a member of the PPSA and love their range on McDonald Pass. I also have several places to shoot on Forest Service around my home. Have been a shooter since I was 4 years old. My dad was a gunsmith for over 50 years.
Bearmn56

Other Temperature information
Greatest 24-hour temperature change
- 103°F (-54 to 49) at Loma on January 14-15, 1972
- 100°F (44 to –56) at Browning on January 23-24, 1916
Greatest 12 hour temperature change
- 84°F (63 to –21) at Fairfield on December 24, 1924
Most Rapid temperature change
- 47°F (-32 to 15) in 7 minutes at Great Falls on January 11, 1980
Longest consecutive number of days minimum temperature at or below freezing
- 251 days at West Yellowstone September 1970 through May 1971
- 180 days at Outlook October 16, 1949 – April 14, 1950
Longest consecutive number of days maximum temperature at or below freezing
- 118 days at Lake View November 4, 1948 – March 1, 1949
- 73 days at Outlook & Medicine Lake December 6, 1949 – February 16, 1950
Longest consecutive number of days minimum temperature at or below zero
- 56 days at Outlook December 11, 1949 – February 4, 1950
- 52 days at Lake View December 20, 1948 – February 9, 1949 4 4

[Jim]

I suppose it might be of interest to know what cannister powders our milsurps are akin to. The information is of no interest to me, though, because I develop my data with my milsurps and really have no need to know what cannister powder it burns like.

[454PB]

We have a lot of Montana guys on here, and I bet every one of them has a weather story to tell. The memory that will be etched in my mind the rest of my life is of the "great train wreck" in Feb. of 1989. I was called to work at 3:00 AM when a run away train rolled down from Austin, exploded near Carrol College, and took out all the transmission lines into Helena. It put the whole town in the dark at -42 degrees. As the foreman at Hauser Dam, I had to get the spillgates open. When the generators trip, that water has to be bypassed to prevent the river from drying up. I spent an hour on top of the dam at -42 in a spraying mist with a 30 MPH wind hand jacking the gates open.

I'm a member of PPSA as well. We're very lucky to have such a nice range to use.

no 1: thanks for the link. I may resupply but at a much higher price than my last purchase!

[mainiac]

454pb,
I have lived in Helena since 1978. I moved from Florida in 1977. Way too many people moved to FL and much of what I grew up with was ruined. I loved Montana from the first look. I liked the way Montanans did business and started doing the same and thiry years later I still love the place. I love all of the public land that is available to play in. Don't much like what the enviros, the Forest Service and Fish, Wildlife and Parks has been doing, but it is still the last best place.
I once attended a sled dog race in Avon years ago and the thermometer showed -53 degrees Farenheight. Once hunting prairie dogs the thermometer, according to a local rancher, was nearly 110 degrees F. I know Rogers Pass has seen lower than 60 below. Maybe 200 degrees was a little exagerated but not too far off.....:-D
I am a member of the PPSA and love their range on McDonald Pass. I also have several places to shoot on Forest Service around my home. Have been a shooter since I was 4 years old. My dad was a gunsmith for over 50 years.
Bearmn56

Still the best last place? You aint never lived in maine I presume? We have pretty near unlimited access to millions of acres.We pretty much do as we please.We shoot,fish,and hunt pretty much where we please.