best black powder

[Riverside]

Goex----Olde Eynsford or Swiss. Which is best?

[Savvy Jack]

I don't know which one would be first but Goex is last

[indian joe]

I don't know which one would be first but Goex is last

looks like Goex still beat the pants off Wano

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a stach of Swiss No.2 and Goex 'P" grades. Tried Elephant, C&H, Goex etc, but these two seem to burn clean and have the highest energy output!

[rancher1913]

my homemade, hands down.

[Savvy Jack]

looks like Goex still beat the pants off Wano

...of the three listed

[Bent Ramrod]

You ought to be able to get a good load with minimum finagling with either Swiss or Olde Eynsford, with grease-groove boolits. Paper-patch loads might be a little more preferential to one or the other, depending.

Swiss used to be a lot denser than OE, but a comparison of pack density (poured through drop tube into case) would indicate that, if anything, OE is now at least as dense as Swiss, if not a little more so. Which is not to say that OE was ever dense; it’s as “fluffy” as other Goex.

Too bad—it used to be almost as easy getting a good load with Swiss in BP cartridges as with smokeless and grease-groove cast boolits in modern cartridges. Compression was totally optional, and all the lots of the red-and-blue labeled Swiss seemed to be interchangeable, at least the ones I got. The pink-labeled stuff is more expensive than OE, but that’s getting close to being the only major difference between them.

[Savvy Jack]

You ought to be able to get a good load with minimum finagling with either Swiss or Olde Eynsford, with grease-groove boolits. Paper-patch loads might be a little more preferential to one or the other, depending.

Swiss used to be a lot denser than OE, but a comparison of pack density (poured through drop tube into case) would indicate that, if anything, OE is now at least as dense as Swiss, if not a little more so. Which is not to say that OE was ever dense; it’s as “fluffy” as other Goex.

Too bad—it used to be almost as easy getting a good load with Swiss in BP cartridges as with smokeless and grease-groove cast boolits in modern cartridges. Compression was totally optional, and all the lots of the red-and-blue labeled Swiss seemed to be interchangeable, at least the ones I got. The pink-labeled stuff is more expensive than OE, but that’s getting close to being the only major difference between them.

Simply measure out 40gr by volume of any black powder, then put it on the scale and see if it weighs 40gr. At the time I was using Swiss, it was the best but I think OE, never tried it, was "hard on their heels" and closing in fast on quality!!!!

Photo from John Kort's collection
12 Dec 2016
287520

https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/my-44-40-black-powder-journey.102691/

[Carrier]

Really don’t have a choice other than Goex where I’m at. So it’s make do with it.

[Riverside]

I find a difference between the swiss 1 1/2 in the red and blue can and swiss 1 1/2 in the pinkish colored can (marked 1 1/2 no. 4). The same wt. of each powder fills a case to a markedly different level. I buy my powder at The Maine Powder House and shipping for 25 cans or more is free. I get together with friends to order.

[curdog007]

I don't know if OE 1 1/2F is better or worse than anything else. Everybody's got their own criteria.
What I do know is, if I use the same weight of it as C&H No.6 in BPE cartridges, it behaves the same.

[FLINTNFIRE]

The best black powder is the one you have or can get , if availability is no problem it is what you can afford for the amount of shooting you do

[Savvy Jack]

The best black powder is the one you have or can get ,

I guess this is what folks did back in 1875 when out in the middle of the desert!!!!!

I have never been able to purchase quality BP locally. For CAS, I was able to group buy Skirmish....by far the worse BP ever...floor sweepings in my book.

[FLINTNFIRE]

It is what anyone in a desert or not no matter what year it is , like it or not , use what you can get or make your own .

Never had to buy skirmish , or use sweepings , but local is hard to find for most of us , so it is mail order or make it .

[ulk77more]

I know the preference is the three listed, but quality BP breaks down to quality materials. NO mass manufacturer of of commercial BP will use the quality of materials as a private person will. I have tried all three types and prefer a willow or poplar based BP.
the commercial grades of BP in my opinion rate close to BP alternative powders but understand, that is my opinion.

[country gent]

Since I have and douse all three mentioned with good results here is what I have found. I use 1f, 1 1/2f, and 2f in different rifles / calibers coming up with a 25.lb order isnt hard.

Swiss:
Requires little compression, usually around .060 is plenty after the drop tube. Fouling is "light" when the load is right. meters and flows well. A simple load work up will normally give a good load

Olde Ensdorde:

Almost or as good as swiss, in one of my rifles its better than. Compression is a little more around .080 - .090 after the drop tube. Meters and flows good. Fouling is a little more when the load is right but manageable with lubes and blow tube. A normal load work up will generally result in a good load

Goex:

My last choice for powder but it can do well. Requires he most compression to get consistent loads usually .125 + after the drop tube. Dosnt meter and flow as well as the other 2. Fouling is the heaviest of the 3 and may be harder to control. I think its a harder fouling, lubes can make a difference here. It sometimes takes extra steps to get to the good load. I use very little of it as I can order the others. For those on a budget it is also the cheapest.

I use a chronograph during load work up and watch not only the velocity but Extreme Spread and standard deviation. AS ES and SD go down so does the fouling. I work up from no compression / no airspace in 2 grn increments then retest .5 grns above and below. With Olde Ensforde and Swiss I normally get into single digit ES. Goex isnt quite as good normally being in the high teens pr so. ( 17-19 but 20s can be there also).

I throw charge on a Lyman bp 55 measure or a Belding and Mull then weight on a scales. Primers are normally Rem LR standards ( this is going to change probably with REM out of business). Cases are Starline.

[Lead pot]

This question which is best will always be around. Swiss was good and maybe it is again after the last couple lots, I don't know I'm working on the second case since they changed the label.

Except the last two years I shot up 4 to 5 + cases a year between Swiss and OE and I personally don't see any difference between the Swiss and OE. These last two years I'm down to less that two cases a year. I load the OE as I do Swiss, treat them the same, and I get the same results using both brands. I have switched during gong matches from Swiss to OE using the same caliber and /primers/bullets and test range results here at home finding the best results and switched to OE between relays using Swiss that gave me 50% hits to OE that ended up 100% hits, and I also had the same results switching the other way also.
Is it the powder or is it the shooter????? one cant go wrong with either powder.

[Don McDowell]

Your rifle will tell you which is best. All 3 mentioned can turn in excellent accuracy. My preference is Olde Eynsford, due to what my rifles and the targets tell me.

[bedbugbilly]

Which is better? Coke or Pepsi? Well . . . gooooooooolly . . . neither . . . . I prefer q good ole Red Pop! LOL :-)

I'm guessing that some are truly better tha others , , , but I think FLINTNFIRE said it pretty well and it was pretty much what I would answer - what you have sitting on the shelf.

I started shooting BP in muzzleloaders almost 60 years ago now. In those days, the only BP available in our area was from a 80 plus year old small one man gunshot. When I started shooting - he had DuPont on the shelf - then later Goex. A pound of Goex in !F up thru $F was 75 cents a pound. If I didn't have the money and still wanted to plink and hunt, I cut down old BP shotgun shells that I accumulated from friends of my Dad who would give them to me if they ran across them. It all worked and I honestly never gave a thought if there was something "better".

I could get Goex so I just kept on using it - rifle, shotgun & cap & ball revolver. Over the years - I sometimes bought old powder horns and flasks - sometimes they had BP in them and it got emptied into a jar and eventually got used as well. When I was still shooting N-SSA, when we were down at Winchester for the Nationals some of us were given a pound of Elephant as a sample to try. For some reason, I could never bring myself to shoot a BP named after a Packaderm. LOL I still have it.

Now don't get me wrong = I fully understand those folks who try to find the "best' - especially with the types of rifles they load for and the type of shooting they do - I have a lot of respect for them. I also have a lot of respect for those that make their own - kind of intriguing when you think of it.

Lead was kind of the same way - especially when we were kids. I scrounged it where ever I could find it and old shotgun shells furnished a lot of good shot to use in the shotgun - and old newspapers furnished all the shotgun wadding we needed.

Not being able to find any BP a year or so ago when things were drying up, Grafs had some of their name brand BP left so I ordered a quantity - haven't used any of it yet but my understanding is that it is Goex packaged under Grafs name. When our local supply dried up, my brother and I would stock up each spring and fall when we went to Friendship for the Nationals - yep! Goex.

When I started shooting and loading BP cartridge - well, with the shortages and bare shelves - whatever is sitting on the works just fine for the shooting I do - if it's BP - it's all good!

I don't hunt anymore now, but there is one thing that sticks in my mind from when I was a kid. I fell in love with BP and muzzleloaders at a young age and I never remember a squirrel, rabbit, pheasant or any other critter ever knowing what brand of BP was loaded in my gun - it all worked just fine. A lot of good memories!

[brassrat]

I can't say much but my one lb can of Gearhart -Owens is my favorite and only. Only have a Pietta .36 but the last six shots were loaded for a yr. with a hand rod and covered with wads that I also stumbled on and shot around a quarter at 50' on bench. I'm set for life, blackpowderwise,

[stubshaft]

For hunting and fine target work I prefer Swiss. Goex gets the nod for everything else.

[toot]

it will all go bang. it all comes down to what you can get & is available.

[Buzzard II]

Gee, I thought my KIK 3F was pretty good & accurate in a 44-40. I would go in this order-Swiss, Old Ensford, Goex. For me Swiss is very good. Old Ensford is a little less money, but still good. Goex works, but for me it's dirty and not so accurate. Whichever you have, then it's the powder for you. Some powder is available to some shooters, some may not be. Shoot what you've got and be happy. I shot a .58 cal. in N-SSA matches in Winchester Va for 10 years and local ranges for more years than I care to remember. Good luck shooting.
Bob

[Riverside]

I have read that the black powder of old (particularly English) burned cleaner and gave better velocity than todays powder. I don't understand why, with today's technology it should be better. Anyone have any experience with the old powder and have you done comparison tests?

[Don McDowell]

Not all the powders of old live up to the modern-day myth.
Olde Eynsford and Swiss are just as good as powders of back in the day, if not better.

[hylander]

Wish I could find some Olde Ensdorde locally.
Only one shop around that carries Black and only carries GOEX :cry:

[dnegative]

I have read that the black powder of old (particularly English) burned cleaner and gave better velocity than todays powder. I don't understand why, with today's technology it should be better. Anyone have any experience with the old powder and have you done comparison tests?

There was a recent test done locally with some vintage curtis and harvey powder and even though it was probably 100 years old it grouped the best and offered good velocity.
All I can get is Wano, I wouldn't say its a bad powder but its a bit docile.

[curdog007]

Like I've said before, for a given charge weight, OE 1 1/2F behaves just like C&H No.6, both velocity and pressure-wise.
That tells me something.

[gunther]

If .you are in the West, in a dry climate, Swiss is the way to go. If in the east, where humidity is always with us, GOI will do fine. Swiss will give you softer fouling in a dry climate, but is kinda expensive when the humidity is 90 percent on a good day. Some years ago, I saw one of the best shots in the country light up like a Christmas tree to get a good price on 75 year old DuPont. I believe he was getting a sponsorship from either GOI or Swiss at the time. By "best", that's shooting in the 180-190 range on the Ky Corps of Longriflemen aggregate consistently.

[Don McDowell]

Wish I could find some Olde Ensdorde locally.
Only one shop around that carries Black and only carries GOEX :cry:
If that shop gets Goex, they can get Olde Eynsford, as it's made by Goex.
They should be able to get any brand of black available, probably just have to ask them to get a few cans of what ever on their next order.

[Lead pot]

Try this once to decide which powder fouled harder.

Shoot a few rounds of each powder just pushing one damp patch, not wet through the bore and look down the bore to see what is left behind and watch what gets pushed out in front of the patch.

If the stuff that is pushed out rolls out like sand you will decide which powder burns moister. You don't have to east or west to see the difference.

[toot]

beggars can't be choosers, take what you can get and be thankful you can get it to shoot & have fun in the sport! as stated it all goes bang. jmho.

[rfd]

Swiss ... or OE if no Swiss is available, but online Swiss is almost always up for sale.

[jednorris]

At the National Shoots Swiss 1-1/2 seems the most popular

[toot]

what caliber / type of guns is Swiss 1-1/2 used in? pistol, rifle, smooth bore?

[Riverside]

Will someone describe the process of making your own black powder?

[John Boy]

* Both Swiss and Wano charcoal is made from Alder Buckthorn. Swiss controls the retort processing better than Wano which creates a higher velocity and fouling control
* Olde E charcoal is made from Yellow Maple, fouling control not as good as Swiss. Reason Olde E velocity is in same range as Swiss is because they ‘juice’ up the 20 & 30 grains with 40 grains in their ratio mix
* Goex is run of the mix powder for fouling control & velocity … except for Goex Cartridge. They did an overall very good processing with this discontinued powder grade and the grain ratio mix is dead on as FFg. A tad slower than Swiss 1.5Fg but have had very good success with it shooting long range with 535 & 550 gr bullets
* But IMHO, the best grade of BP to be shipped to the US was the 2010 lot of Kik, all grades. It too had charcoal made from Alder Buckthorn branches loaded with glucose

Not within the initial OP’ request for best powders… in the 1970’s, Nobel Industries in Ardeer Scotland was making powder and shippng it cloned from the processing recipe of Curtis’s & Harvey powder, the best overall powder ever made using the packaging label … Meteor. I lucked out finding this powder, tested it and hoard it like fine scotch whiskey

[beltfed]

I have an old full can of Hodgdon's Black Powder FFFg that is marked
Made in Scotland. I wonder if it was made by that Nobel Ind. plant in Ardeer?
May just give it a try, comparing it in my 38-50RH to other 3f BP I have, including DuPont and Swiss
beltfed/arnie

[echo154]

I have found Swiss 1 1/2 and 2 FG to have the softest fouling in my 45-2 7/8 but must admit the only other powders I have used were GOEX an Elephant. Both of the latter were ok but the fouling was not as easily wiped out .....of course the 45 2 7/8 burns a lot more powder.

[Newtire]

looks like Goex still beat the pants off WanoJust curious, what’s not to like about Wano? I like Swiss myself when it can be gotten.

[echo154]

I live in the UH great state of Illinois:roll:....where I can only have 5lbs of BP in my possession . I like Swiss and can get it in 5 lb lots from some dealers. If I get it from a nearby county I have to buy 50lbs of Goex and have 10 other FOID holders go in with me.

[John Boy]

Arnie, didn’t mention it, but Hogdon also was selling for a couple of years the C&H clone powder made in Ardeer Scotland … labeled as Made in Great Britain. Austin Powder Co also was selling the same “rifle” powder for several years. The Austin powder was what I used to compare 2Fg Meteor powder to… exact match, sieve ratio,density, velocity and fouling residue that verified the Meteor powder was the C&H. I have full cans of Meteor in 1.5, 2Fg and 3Fg … vintage 1973

[one-eyed fat man]

GOEX, for all its flaws exists because DoD uses millions of pounds in everything from primers for artillery and tank gun ammunition to the delay element in hand grenades. As long as the stuff meets the MILSPEC it will still be most widely available.

[John Boy]

One-Eye …. The one reason why Hogdon bought Goex is because of a Federal law that says any military black powder use has to be from a US Company. And when Hogdon bought Goex, the next month of January … they jacked the price of the powder up … and have done so ever since. From $16 a can to $33 a can

[veeman]

I live in the UH great state of Illinois:roll:....where I can only have 5lbs of BP in my possession .

I didn't know that. oops.

[one-eyed fat man]

One-Eye …. The one reason why Hogdon bought Goex is because of a Federal law that says any military black powder use has to be from a US Company. And when Hogdon bought Goex, the next month of January … they jacked the price of the powder up … and have done so ever since. From $16 a can to $33 a can

Back in the Seventies, after the PA plant blew up and production was shifted to Louisiana the Army suffered some unwanted variation performance in artillery. It was eventually traced back to the changes in the charcoal from regional differences in maple trees. As to pricing, sole source equals monopoly...and we are not their primary customer.

287846

[John Boy]

One eyed… here’s the date of the Moosic plant operations move to Minden, LA…

In the early 1970’s, the Belin Plant became a part of GOEX. GOEX continued to supply black powder for Military and Industry and for a growing Sporting interest. In 1997, GOEX moved to Minden, Louisiana to continue the tradition of manufacturing fine quality black powder. Fine quality are Goex’s words

Thanks for the charcoal article. Another factor not mentioned for poor powder lots was the Moosic source of water. They used to draw it out of the river and they found chemicals in it and then had to use well water for the ball mill process.

Further note on Goex charcoal …. They outsource the purchase of prepared yellow maple charcoal from several vendors. They don’t make their own charcoal and the only way to determine the charcoal quality is to test the prepared powder at the plant with a powder bomb tool. When they moved to Minden, Bill Bagwell, a Knowledgeable BP shooter used to test all lots at his ranch in Texas. But after Hodgden bought Goex, they fired Bill

[one-eyed fat man]

But after Hodgden bought Goex, they fired Bill

They do it because they can. Having absorbed Dupont, Olin, and Accurate they have eliminated all competition in smokeless powders except Alliant. Oh well, they are cornering BP substitutes as well.

Thanks for the correction on dates. I remembered artillery primer problems, an explosion, a move and mistakenly connected them.

[John Boy]

As far as I am concerned, Hodgdon is in violation of the Sherman Anti Trust Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act_of_1890

[Captain*Kirk]

As of yesterday, with the announcement of the closure of the Fort Minden BP manufacturing facility, better get whatever brand you can find...and start looking for substitute alternatives.

[toot]

Goex----Olde Eynsford or Swiss. Which is best?
it doesn't matter now that the GOEX PLANT IT KAPUT. the fire put them out of business!!