For Browning Auto 5 experts

[Patrick L]

Had anyone successfully shortened the recoil spring in a Browning Auto 5 in order to get reliable function with very light loads? For the last several years I have been very enamored with 12 gauge 3/4 oz skeet loads. Obviously they work fine in the OU, and they even cycle the 1100 fine. But they're simply too light for my Light 12 A5. I have ordered a new recoil spring, my thought was to clip maybe 1/2 a coil at a time until she cycles.

Anyone ever try this? How did it go?

[megasupermagnum]

Have you played with the setup as it is? Make sure you have the light load friction ring setup, and clean and lube the mag tube with a 20 or 30 weight motor oil, not thin gun oil. Get a good coating on oil on there, not just a thin wipe. It shouldn't be dripping, but you should be able to leave a fingerprint.

[turtlezx]

got mine to work with 3/4oz but was a pisser to do
did it just to say i could more than anything i left the stock spring alone and removed the friction ring and reversable ring for heavy and light loads
then worked up powder charge just hot enough to get it to cycle
worked well shot about 1k rds thru it that way

was a fellow nyer utica ,vernon

[Patrick L]

So you just totally removed the bronze friction piece and spring, as well as the beveled ring that normally rests against the receiver? Didn't think of that, it would be worth a try.

I load these powderpuffs by the thousand, they are great in fixed breech guns, and like I said even my 1100 cycles them fine, but the again that's a gas gun. I just don't want to have to load A5 specific shells.

BTW, I'm not talking experimental loads or anything like that. These are sanctioned, published loads. Its just that the A5 was designed in a different day and age, and shotgun shells just were not that light back then

[NyFirefighter357]

I can never remember the adjustments for those rings:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/images/BROWNINGA5DISASSEMBLY.pdf

https://www.midwestgunworks.com/field_service_manual/browning_auto_5_field_service_manual.pdf

[Patrick L]

Guys thanks, but the rings are most definitely set correctly for light loads. I'm looking to shoot even lighter loads than the light setting normally allows.

[turtlezx]

yes pat total removal

[megasupermagnum]

How does the spring fit on the magazine? There should be no dragging at all, only a slip fit.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I removed the friction ring, and turned a new, non-split low ring from brass that matched the cone in the barrel and gave the spring a flat to rest against.

[Patrick L]

I'll give that a try. And Cap'n, that's a great idea to make that piece to maintain a flat surface, thank to you for that.

And, the replacement spring is already on the way, so if these ideas don't pan out I will then try my plan, namely clip a half coil and try, clip a a half coil and try, etc.

I really love these A5s even though they are not the "in" design these days. I have three, a Sweet 16, a magnum 20, and now this Light 12, all Belgian. The story behind my acquiring this Light 12 is amazing, but that will have to wait for another time and post

[lesharris]

Friction ring placement

[Patrick L]

Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

[Buck Shot]

Big A5 fan here, too.
Never tried cutting any springs, though I've put many hundreds of pounds of lead down my A5s on various skeet fields over the years.
I'd sure want to make sure I had a spare recoil spring before I started cutting on mine, though.
I think I'd also be tempted to try to find a spring that has the same dimensions, just thinner wire and less compressive strength...did you try the usual places (Brownells, etc) to see if they had something like that? (Or maybe even the folks in Utah?)
After my Dad gave me his old Sweet 16, I sent it off to Browning to get them to lengthen the chamber to 2-3/4"...they did a nice job for a reasonable price...

[Patrick L]

Buckshot,

No worries, TWO spares are on the way, and any cutting I attempt will be on one of these, not the original.

I don't know of anyone now offering reduced power springs, only factory spec replacement ones. I would not be surprised to learn they were offerrd "back in the day", then again back in the day men were men, shot was cheap, and you just shot skeet with 1 1/8 oz loads! Not so anymore, any of it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Do what Capt said !!!,,, Also if you are going to cut the spring cut the old one and keep the new one for when you convert the gun back to normal ammo.

Also Amsoil 20/50" Racing Oil is the hot tip for all gun lubes. 1 qt will last forever.

Randy

[gwpercle]

If you are going to cut springs ... buy two springs to work on ...
One spring you keep cutting untill ... OOP'S Too Far .
Then cut the other spring to pre-oop's .
I always save the original springs and cut on/modify the replacements .
The old stuff is better .
Gary

[too many things]

take the black ring off the brass piece . make sure you dont get a hot load . if you do it will damage the receiver
i use trans fluid for lube

[Patrick L]

OK tried it yesterday with the friction piece and ring totally removed. Still no dice.

I clipped a coil off of a new spring, am heading to the range today. Will bring my tools and a few boxes of the desired reload. I will test fire, clip a coil, test fire, clip...until I get function.

Will keep you all posted.

[fecmech]

Rather than cutting coils you could grind the outside of the coils to make the coils thinner. I've done this on smaller springs to lighten them up and keep their full length. Just don't over heat it. Also maybe check with the guy at Wolf gunsprings there may be something out there with thinner wire that works.

[Patrick L]

Ok achieved success, sort of. I clipped a total of four coils, one at a time with a test fire between between clippings. I never did get my light 3/4 oz loads to function, but at 4 coils the 7/8 oz ones did. I'm going to leave it at that. The reason I don't want to clip any more is that at four coils removed, the barrel protrudes from the action only about 1/4 inch. If I clip any more the barrel will not bear against the forearm at all.

7/8 is light enough I guess.

[Carrier]

This may or may not help. I got some good information on his auto 5 videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ArtIsaacson/videos

[Patrick L]

I've watched most of his videos, he is great! In fact, I order most of my A5 parts from Art's Gun shop.

[Carrier]

I've watched most of his videos, he is great! In fact, I order most of my A5 parts from Art's Gun shop.

You are lucky as he won’t ship anything out of the USA.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm going to leave it at that. The reason I don't want to clip any more is that at four coils removed, the barrel protrudes from the action only about 1/4 inch. If I clip any more the barrel will not bear against the forearm at all.

7/8 is light enough I guess.

What exactly does this mean? Cuz it doesn't sound good ! Are you saying the barrel is not in battery? What exactly do you mean by this?

I'm having a little problem with all of this. A5's are not heavy recoiling guns with the Friction Ring set up properly. The difference in recoil between a 1oz load (which the gun should run when set up for light loads and lubed properly) and a 7/8 or 3/4 oz is so minimal it is not worth altering the gun to make it happen. If the recoil is a problem for you then I'd suggest putting a decent recoil pad on the gun, and keeping your cheek welded to the gun and pulling it tight into your shoulder. These last two things are the most effective ways to mitigate recoil with shotguns there is, and they are a learned skill.

My Tactical A5 has a new 1" thick Pachmayer Recoil pad on it and it is nothing to fire 200 rounds (Some Rapid Fire) in a day with common #8 Birdshot, and even some Low Recoil Buckshot and Slugs with no marks on me at all!!!. I'd post a picture of it but the site isn't working again.

If I was you I'd get a Brass Ring made like Capt. Morgan suggested and go from there. That way the barrel is not rattling around on the mag tube, eventually destroying it.

Another Idea is to "Call" and talk to Art at Art's gun shop and ask him if there is a safe way to do this. Art has forgotten more about these guns than the rest of us combined will ever know. His sons aren't far behind him in their knowledge of the weapon as well. He is more than willing to talk to people and I have spoken to both him and his sons numerous times and even traded guns with them. My Tactical A5 came from them in trade for a 3" Magnum A5 I had, and I even got the better of that deal. They are a great Browning Resource, and in case you didn't know it, he was an In House Gunsmith for Browning in St Louis for 30+ years. His videos on Youtube are invaluable sources of information.

What you are doing doesn't sound safe or good for the gun.

A little concerned here.

Randy

[Patrick L]

Randy, we're fine. The gun is 100% in battery and locked tight as it's supposed to be. And yes I knew all that about Art's. I've talked to them several times on a variety of issues.

What I mean is, the barrel still needs to be pushed down into the receiver when I assemble the gun, just not as much as with an unaltered spring. If I remove more coils then that won't be the case. If THAT happens, then I will have a problem.

It's not that standard loads recoil too much for me, it's that I have several 12 gauge guns and I don't want to have to load separate loads for each gun. I wanted to get it to function with the same shells I feed all my other 12 gauges.

[1hole]

Reading the comments on the A5 brings back memories. In 1955 I was a 14 year old living in Jacksonville Fla.; I had a fascination for firearms but knew little about any of them except what I saw in hunting magazine adds.

There was a good gunsmith shop on Main Street that I visited pretty often just to look at their repaired customer gun racks. After several visits the counter guys got accustomed to me and one was even friendly to a young dummy. I mentioned to him that it looked like A5s must not be very good because they took up about 80% of his rack space. He chuckled and said that was because only A5 shotguns were worth the cost of repairing.

Some six years later I got out of the USAF and soon bought my first gun; a "Sweet 16" plain barreled A5, $147.50, at Sear's. It was a fine tool and I loved it but fifteen years later it got hard to find 16 ga. ammo and I didn't expect things to get any better.

So, like a fool, in 1972 I traded it so I could afford to buy a then brand new Weatherby Regency O/U in 3" 20 gauge magnum that weighted, balanced and felt the same. I still have that one, it works well and I love it too, but everytime I use it I wish I also still had that old A5. That thing never malfunctioned, not once; it got me a pile of dove, several duck, my first deer and it left a small ton of busted clay birds on the trap range.

Moral of the story: treasure your A5. Use it often, treat it well and someday you'll have some good memories too! :)

[W.R.Buchanan]

So you were saying that you had to push the barrel down 1/4" into the receiver to get the nut to start,,, OK that's better. I'd still look into getting a Low Friction Ring made for this application. Maybe the gun will cycle with no real friction on the recoil mechinism.

Anyway sounds like you've got it under control.

Randy

[turtlezx]

i would bump up the powder charge enough to get it to cycle with the cut spring
use that load for all your 3/4oz if your saying recoil is not a issue. simple problem solved

[megasupermagnum]

I was thinking about this today, and the thought came into my mind. While a shorter spring might work, I am thinking there has to be a better way. Then the thought came to me that the friction ring is the only real equalizer in the system. The faster the barrel recoils, the harder the ring clamps down. Even if you shorten the spring, or use a lighter one, that ring is only going to clamp down harder. I'm sure you could get it to work, but the idea came to me, why not modify the friction ring? I saw the suggestions for making essentially a spacer to eliminate the friction ring. My thought is you would be much better off simply modifying an existing ring. It would still serve its purpose, you would only be lowering the friction it could provide. My thought was to use a file to narrow the lands of the ring. You wouldn't have to do much. If you filed 1/2 the width of each land, and only .010" deep or so, you would have essentially cut the friction that ring can provide in 1/2. I would have to think that would function with your loads.

[Patrick L]

Actually, the friction ring and bronze friction piece is already removed. That was myfirst step, to try the gun with the friction piece and ring removed, but with the original unaltered spring. As I reported earlier, that didn't do trick

[Buck Shot]

This may or may not help. I got some good information on his auto 5 videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ArtIsaacson/videos

What a treasure trove of information on A5s! Thank you for posting that, some of those videos are getting downloaded for future reference.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was thinking about this today, and the thought came into my mind. While a shorter spring might work, I am thinking there has to be a better way. Then the thought came to me that the friction ring is the only real equalizer in the system. The faster the barrel recoils, the harder the ring clamps down. Even if you shorten the spring, or use a lighter one, that ring is only going to clamp down harder. I'm sure you could get it to work, but the idea came to me, why not modify the friction ring? I saw the suggestions for making essentially a spacer to eliminate the friction ring. My thought is you would be much better off simply modifying an existing ring. It would still serve its purpose, you would only be lowering the friction it could provide. My thought was to use a file to narrow the lands of the ring. You wouldn't have to do much. If you filed 1/2 the width of each land, and only .010" deep or so, you would have essentially cut the friction that ring can provide in 1/2. I would have to think that would function with your loads.

See Capt. Morgan's Post above. Randy

[KCSO]

First try removing the friction rings altogether. This will also shorten the recoil spring.

[megasupermagnum]

See Capt. Morgan's Post above. Randy

I only see where you made a ring, essentially a spacer. My thought is it was possible to make this work with nothing but a file, and modifying the existing ring. Patrick L says he already removed the friction piece and ring, which I did not know. To be clear, when I say ring, I mean the bronze piece.

Something doesn't seem right, if it will not function with no friction rings at all, I have to think something else is going on. The spring slides on the magazine tube easily? The barrel slides into the receiver easily? The fore end clears the barrel completely?

[fecmech]

You say the bronze friction ring is totally removed? Are you just running the spring against the barrel? FWIW I've played with a lot of A5's and I've shot 7/8@1200fps in all of them using the standard light load setting with oil on the mag tube. I even have a 1909 Model 11 Remington (original American Browning A5) that functions 100% with 7/8@1200 fps loads on the standard light setting. You should not have to cut springs and do away with the bronze friction ring to function with 7/8 loads. Are you sure you don't have something binding in the recoil spring tube in the buttstock?

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Friction Ring also aligns the barrel with the receiver. If it is not there the barrel could be cocked a little thus be in a bind. You knid of need the ring in there to prevent this.

Randy

[Patrick L]

Fechmec,
I'm a little surprised myself. I have two other A5s, a Sweet 16 and a Magnum 20, and both of them, when set for light loads, function with my powderpuff skeet loads. I was especially surprised with the 20, because even on the light setting they are really only supposed to go as low as a field type load.

But this 12 is just a different gun I guess. That is correct, friction piece totally removed, just barrel and clipped spring. It will cycle my 7/8 oz loads that way, and today I tested it with 3/4 oz loads, where I went up 2 bushings, but was still within the recommended range for the powder I'm using. It ejected the empties right at my feet, and locked open when empty.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I'm a little surprised myself. I have two other A5s, a Sweet 16 and a Magnum 20, and both of them, when set for light loads, function with my powderpuff skeet loads. I was especially surprised with the 20, because even on the light setting they are really only supposed to go as low as a field type load.

I wonder if the low recoil actually adds to the problem: Less recoil means less rearward velocity of the gun, and subsequently less inertia in the barrel/bolt unit. When the gun is stopped by the shoulder, the barrel/bolt has not enough momentum to cycle the gun properly. Its been thirty years since I last shot an A5 (but I still have a Sweet Sixteen sitting around) and I don't remember if the way you hold the gun will interfere with how the gun cycle. It would be easy to check by trying a more loose hold on the gun (perhaps shooting from the hip) and see if it changes anything.

[Buck Shot]

I've shot 1-1/8 target loads from the hip (and with one arm) and mine (Belgian 12 from the 1930s and Japanese Light 12 from the '90s) cycled them fine.

I also once shot a mess of Red Dot reloads that got cooked in my mom's attic for a number of years, to the point that they were almost duds...and the Miroku even cycled those, though I believe I might have had to rearrange the friction rings to the "light load" configuration for those. (If I recall right, I was able to keep the rings in the "heavy loads" configuration through several years of weekly trips to the skeet field using the club's standard AA skeet loads and my own reloads of same...my theory was that if the gun cycled this stuff without any problems, I might as well leave the friction rings in the "heavy loads" position to better protect the gun from battering, and also not have to worry about the friction rings when I shifted to hunting.)

I've always kept my mag tubes clean and oiled...they're great guns. Mom and Dad ran a skeet field when I was a baby and I wouldn't even want to guess how many tons of lead have gone down the barrel of Dad's Belgian...I think he had it reblued two or three times...and he inherited it from his father. Talk about Energizer Bunny guns.

[W.R.Buchanan]

People need to understand that A5's are not guns,,, They are machinery that shoots. JMB recommended 30wt. Motor Oil for lubricant.

With an occasional Cleaning which can be done by removing the barrel and stock and then hosing the insides out with solvent and then finishing with brake cleaner, and then re-lubing everything with good 30wt or better oil,,, the guns will last indefinitely. They are made that well.

Small parts can fail but are available on Ebay or from others that have stashes of parts. All the main parts will never wear out as long as they are relatively clean and most importantly "Lubricated." (Made form good quality steel and Heat Treated correctly, which has been learned over a century of the designs improvement and use.

Arguably one of the best guns of all time. Surprising how many guns in that category came from the same designer.?

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

People need to understand that A5's are not guns,,, They are machinery that shoots. JMB recommended 30wt. Motor Oil for lubricant.

With an occasional Cleaning which can be done by removing the barrel and stock and then hosing the insides out with solvent and then finishing with brake cleaner, and then re-lubing everything with good 30wt or better oil,,, the guns will last indefinitely. They are made that well.

Small parts can fail but are available on Ebay or from others that have stashes of parts. All the main parts will never wear out as long as they are relatively clean and most importantly "Lubricated." (Made form good quality steel and Heat Treated correctly, which has been learned over a century of the designs improvement and use.

Arguably one of the best guns of all time. Surprising how many guns in that category came from the same designer.?

Randy

I think the surprising thing is the popularity of the 1911, but not the model 8. I don't mean that the 1911 is not a great handgun, but some just about worship it as the end all be all. The model 8 is a fantastic and rugged semi-auto rifle, just like the model 11 shotgun, and yet not everyone has heard about it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Any Bonnie and Clyde fan should know that they were ended by a bunch of M8's.

Randy

[Patrick L]

A model 8 or 81 in either . 35 Remington or . 300 Savage would be high on my coolness factor.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been looking for a model 8 or 81 in 35 remington for a while now. Can't seem to touch them under $1000 for a half decent one. 300 savage seems to be up there as well. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the 30 Remington.