Mystery Linotype

[Avenger442]

I recently purchased off of Ebay what was advertised a "pure" linotype. After receiving it I did, as I always do when purchasing of Ebay, some checking of the product. The BHN was 16.9. I verified the accuracy of my instrument against a known sample. Now we know that pure linotype is about 22 BHN. You could probably still get away with the pure if it was 21. It is brittle like linotype. But this is not pure linotype. So I contacted the seller and he offered a return. But since this is a 24 pound bar I really was not interested in returning it. I asked him to correct his description on Ebay and he removed the word pure. But since it still said linotype I left a neutral comment saying tested below 17 and was not linotype.

Now to the guy's credit he did offer a return and said that he had bought a print shop and was told the bars were pure linotype.

But to my question. I now have 24 pounds of mystery metal that I would like to know the composition of. Is there anyone I can send it to to have it tested to find the composition?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ingots can measure different from a cast boolit, due to mold temp or age or other factors. I'd melt some and cast with it, then measure hardness of the boolit.

[Conditor22]

Linotype runs between 19-21 bhn; BUT, it depletes over time and they have to add more hardener.
Some print shops cast their own spacers -- lower BHN

I quit worrying about alloy content and just went by BHN. IF it doesn't cast well at 700° I'll throw in a .5 oz pewter boolit or 2.

I don't know if BNE still does alloy tests in exchange for lead.

[dahermit]

The problem with the work "Linotype" is that there are/were several different lead alloys used in different printing processes. Monotype, Stereotype, Foundry type (three kinds I believe), etc. and to the relatively ignorant, "Linotype" seems to have become a generalization for those who did not know any better. All of the various type metals were harder than pure lead all usable for bullets. However, the exact alloy being sold as "Linotype" is very likely to vary.

[JimB..]

Sounds like the OP bought an ingot for a linotype machine. Sounds like the seller thought that these were always foundry produced.

User BNE was doing testing as of a few months ago. He’s got a sticky somewhere that describes the process for getting his assistance.

[rbuck351]

In the old print shops the type was used then recast into a linotype bar for reuse. After a period of reuse it lost some of the hardness so when they recast they added more hardener. How low in BHN they went before adding hardener would depend on the print shop manager. At 17 BHN it would still make type hard enough for limited runs so would still be considered linotype metal until it was not hard enough for use. It would not have been recast in a linotype bar with added hardener unless it could make usable type. So yeah, it is linotype. It is not new never used or rejuvenated lino.

It's kind of like calling a boolet a lead bullet. It is but usually not pure lead nor of any specific alloy. New lino will have slight variations depending which company made it. Used lino is a guess without testing and many on Ebay only have a vague idea of what they are selling. Clipon wheel weights are of somewhat different alloys depending on manufacture.

I am very wary of Ebay descriptions of items.

[Avenger442]

Thanks for all of the replys and understand that what I am about to say is from a guy that has studied and cast bullets for about six years. So it can be corrected.

287255

For years I have been using the above chart from the LASC site http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy to determine compositions of metals and their BHN. You will notice the types of "type" are listed. With the exception of electrotype none are under 22 BHN.

Words have meaning. If not then we don't have a language that we can communicate with. And you are right about Ebay. Descriptions sometimes are a bit muddled and some down right inaccurate. Some of the people selling an item are not in any way familiar with what they are selling. That's why we should ask the seller questions.

There are several reasons to know the composition and BHN of the metal you cast with. But the reason that I want to know is that it can impact accuracy at distance. My understanding is it doesn't much matter at 25 or 50 yards. You are talking fractions of an inch at those distances. But when you stretch it out to 200 yards the difference can be a couple of inches.

I believe you are right about the metal loosing BHN every time you melt it because the composition changes. If I understand it correctly you can loose tin and I'm not sure about the antimony. We use a layer of something on top of the melt to slow this down. Sawdust works well.

Since this metal is so brittle I don't think I would use it without mixing something else with it. Now if I knew the composition I might be able to correctly adjust for my use. May contact BNE to see what we can work out.

[Conditor22]

https://i.imgur.com/FMztmCg.png
https://i.imgur.com/H0TUQYj.png

[JimB..]

Buying “linotype” from ebay is like buying “car” from ebay. Even foundry “linotype” isn’t perfectly consistent, and print shop “linotype” can be all over the place for reasons discussed. Worst case, an ebay seller lists zinc as “linotype” knowing that someone will buy it. In this case you had a specific expectation, it wasn’t met, seller offered to unwind the deal, you declined. Lesson learned cheaply and sounds like nothing that can’t be fixed.

About alloy composition and accuracy at 200+, I’m curious what you’ve learned from experimentation. I do not yet shoot cast in rifles.

[dondiego]

Sounds like you got some good, usable, alloy to me.

[BNE]

I believe you are right about the metal loosing BHN every time you melt it because the composition changes. If I understand it correctly you can loose tin and I'm not sure about the antimony. We use a layer of something on top of the melt to slow this down. Sawdust works well.


I respect the work that Fryxell explained in his work "From Ingot to target." BUT I think a lot of damage has been caused by stating that the Tin can "Oxidize out" of a mix. YES, the Tin on the surface does oxidize, but the oxide layer is microscopically thin. I took a pot of alloy, and heated it well over 800F for a couple of hours. I took samples from the top scrapings every 15 minutes or so. I XrF'ed the samples and they were all the same. So, even if the Tin does oxidize, the amount that gets thrown out in your scrapings is SOOOOOO small, it will not have a measurable effect on your alloy. I still use sawdust, but I don't stress about it.

The alloy hardness does change, but that is from age hardening, not the Tin dissapearing.

BNE

PS - That BNE guy still does testing....Just be patient, he's busy. ;)

[JimB..]

I sent BNE some samples a few months back, they were all from the same 200lb batch. Sample from the first ingot, the last ingot and an ingot in the middle, there were no significant differences. When I was done pouring ingots I took everything that I’d collected from the top of the melt and threw it back in the pot with more sawdust and wax. Managed to squeeze 2 ingots out of that, they tested the same too.

We always talk about printer’s lead alloy deteriorating/softening from use, but I’ve quietly wondered if it wasn’t really that they bought softer lead spacers that got mixed back in when type was melted. Haven’t found an old printer to ask.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

There is a thread somewhere here with discussion about molten alloy oxidation, by people that are far more educated than I am and the conclusion was, that the oxidation layer on top of a molten alloy contains all the same elements as the alloy it came from.

[Avenger442]

I have some lino 21 BHN that still test 21 BHN after five years. Anybody know how long it would take lino to go from 22 to under 17? Which is what this mystery metal is. I don't think it has much lead in it. It is brittle.

[JimB..]

I have some lino 21 BHN that still test 21 BHN after five years. Anybody know how long it would take lino to go from 22 to under 17? Which is what this mystery metal is. I don't think it has much lead in it. It is brittle.
It will not soften with time. XRF is the best next step, but you could do an acid test for zinc and determine density to get more data about what it might be.

[Ilwil]

My dad was a linotype machinist at a large daily paper, and while attending school, I worked the linotype pot every day, melting the previous days type, pouring 250 22 lb pigs, and distributing the previous days pour to the linotype machines. Every day I added a 5lb ingot of tin/antimony alloy to replace the depletion, before I drossed off the pot, then poured pigs. I can imagine there were other, perhaps smaller newspapers or print shops that were not so diligent about keeping to the 22% level. The machinists also ran the spacer machines, and they also used linotype for that. This was 50 years ago.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Melt some, then cast some boolits for hardness testing... cast with a mold that you know the weight, if cast with linotype alloy you know to be correct. ALSO, when melting, watch for melt and freeze temps and watch for slush-state temp range.
>>>These are things you can do...compare weights... and look up melt/freeze temps to compare...to give you an idea if this ebay alloy is correct.

But as JimB said, XRF test is best.

[Avenger442]

Well test by BNE show this Mystery Metal to be:
Pb = 85.0%
Sb = 11.9%
Sn = 3.1%

Which is close to the content of pure linotype which is considered to be:
84% Pb
12% Sb
4% Sn

It is interesting that a 1% increase in lead a 0.1% decrease in antimony and 0.9% decrease in tin can produce a 4BHN reduction.

I have been trying to control BHN in my alloys. Consistency in everything equals accuracy of a load. Now I can adjust the alloy mix to give me not only the equal BHN but the equal composition of an alloy. Thanks BNE.

[lightman]

BNE is a great asset to this site. We are lucky to have him. I have sent him numerous samples over the past couple of years.

[bruce381]

"We always talk about printer’s lead alloy deteriorating/softening from use, but I’ve quietly wondered if it wasn’t really that they bought softer lead spacers that got mixed back in when type was melted. Haven’t found an old printer to ask."

I always thought same thing.

[carelesslove]

carelesslove, here!

Many years ago, I was lucky enough to meet up with an old printer who poured & machined linotype and he "tried" to teach me about linotype & casting it.

He had harsh words for those printers that used soft lead as spacers and swore he only used linotype - and in his words - "if you let the tin burn off, or put ANY other metal in your pot, your type metal will go soft".

My seemingly intelligent question was "how will you know if the tin has burned off?". His reply was quick & terse - "Hell boy, just look at it!".

Knowing then, that I was technically dead in the water, I asked him what to if it went soft. He replied - I'm going to give you a bucket of "Parting Metal". If you need to bring up the hardness, just knock off a chunk of this in your pot and it will "sweeten it right up!"

After that, the only question I had was "What do I owe you, Sir". I took all the metal he would sell me + the "Parting Metal" and ran home like I had stolen something.

To this day, I do not know the constituency of the mysterious parting metal, but a chunk of it did make my bullets instantly harder and made the sharp edges on my bullets even sharper.

Success without knowledge is usually rare, but I enjoyed it.

Later in my casting life, I figured out, that for my revolver shooting, a "push thru" fit in the cylinder throats was more important than bullet hardness, so I use my linotype metal for alloying - not casting bullets from it.

I am absolutely certain the old printer knew what he was talking about. I just wasn't smart enough to figure it out.

Now, the old printers are pretty much gone - and along with them, their stories.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Couple years back I ordered 25# of linotype from Roto Metals when it was on sale. Came in 5# ingots. I used one yesterday along with some pewter and 76# of pure to batch some 10 bhn ingots for my revolvers. Came out right at 10 bhn like the alloy calculator said it would. With wheel weights going extinct linotype is nice to have. Makes your scrounged lead and pewter more useful.

[Half Dog]

Our local college has a geology department that has all of the fancy equipment. I took a lead sample to them and they could tell me everything in it.

[MEB]

The pawn shop near me has an machine that tells the percent of each metal in sample/jewelry but it worked just fine on a cast bullet.

[Rickf1985]

I don't know whether it is a good thing or bad thing to admit I am old enough to have run a linotype and the Heidelberg presses that used it for printing? I also set the type by hand. I can assure you that the spacers used in a small shop were for the most part soft lead. They could be cast on the lino machine but if you were handsetting you might as well use spacers from the galleys. If these spacers were mixed in with the linotype and melted in then it would lower the hardness. This was not a big issue for small runs on a small press where the impression is set by the pressman. On production machines it became a problem because the type would round off quickly and you would lose definition in the letters. I don't know if this makes sense and I do know it goes against what Fryxal says but I am talking about what I saw in the real world.