What is essential to shoot the Holy Black? [Archive]

Boerrancher

01-08-2009, 10:20 AM

I am going to Graf's today Here is a list of what I am going to pick up to shoot the Holy Black in my 45-70. If anyone can think of anything else please post it as I will check this list while I am there at Graf's with my phone.

1. Holy Black
2. Compression die
3. Ballistol-for clean up

I have everything I need for card wads and grease cookies. Brass, boolits, and primers I have. If any of you think of any thing else just let me know.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranc,

Joe

cajun shooter

01-08-2009, 10:40 AM

Just remember that 45-70 case is big and as the name implies uses alot of powder. 1lb won't go a real long ways. You will be out just as the fun starts. Mike Graf called me back yesterday afternoon and thank me for my posting on The service at Graf's. If you can ask for him and tell him you are passing a hand shake from David Shultz aka Cajun Shooter.

freedom475

01-08-2009, 11:15 AM

Drop tube... I know you can make one from an arrow shaft but the commercial ones with the funnel and loading block are sure nice.

Vegitable fiber wads...some loads really like these and they're pretty cheap.

Case brush for cleaning your cases.

One of those hand crank media seperators will come in real handy for cleaning and drying cases.

I use a little Ballistol....but Citrus Solvent and BoreButter(toothpaste, Not bucket) are so handy to have,.... they just make shooting blackpowder a LOT more fun and easy....."Aren't you going to bring your blackpowder gun?" "Nope, I'm out of BoreButter."

Buy as much black as you can afford..... you just can't have too much....

You might want to consider a mixed package of 2ff and 3ff..my 45-120 sure likes the 3ff better.

Have fun:drinks:

Hip's Ax

01-08-2009, 11:49 AM

I wasn't aware that Graf's had compression dies? Got a link? I've only been able to find them at Buffalo.

Ballistol is good stuff but expensive. I use 10:1 water soluble cutting oil to make Moose Milk. Cheap and works great. You'll need more if your going to wipe between shots, if not your going to need a blow tube.

Patches, since I wipe every shot it just seems I never have enough patches.

I clean at the end of the day by using Moose Milk patches until they come out clean, then Shooter's Choice (regular, not special for BP) and brushes and patches. Then Lots of oil. I also spray some Rem Oil down into the action, that Moose Milk dripping in there all day, well, I feel better if I know theres gun oil in there after all is said and done.

Hip's Ax

01-08-2009, 11:52 AM

BTW, I know this is always an argument but I hope you have a BP powder measure.

missionary5155

01-08-2009, 12:02 PM

Good morning
Something you can make at home...CROSS STICKS. I can near shoot my heavy barrel 45-70 RB as well off sticks as a bench and I return home without a weeklong bruise from the 500grainers.
God Bless you !

Boerrancher

01-08-2009, 12:02 PM

I will add a drop tube to my list, and some bore butter. I have a case brush, and a way to dry cases. I am going to buy at least 5 lbs of powder or more. If nothing else I can use it for stump removal. Also I have noticed over the years that 3F tends to shoot better in 45 cal front stuffers than 2F, and 2F better in the larger cals. It would stand to reason that 3F would work best in 45 cal cartridges and smaller.

Thanks for the added info,

Joe

BPCR Bill

01-08-2009, 12:37 PM

Joe,
If grafs doesn't have the compression dies, you can get them right from the guy who makes them at Montana Precision Swaging. His phone # is 1-406-494-0600. I have compression dies I rarely use anymore as I quit compressing my loads and get better accuracy. (That's just me, please don't crucify me guys!) Also using Federal Match large pistol primers in my 45-70 as well as the 45-110. Kirk Bryant at Shiloh turned me on to that bit of advice. Have fun experimenting with powders. I use Swiss 1 1/2 or 2F in the big boys, and they work pretty well in my 38-55 as well. Some people have vehemently cursed them, but I have gotten great service from my Lyman 55 BP powder hopper. It throws a very consistent load, and it is equipped with the drop tube.

Regards,
Bill

montana_charlie

01-08-2009, 12:54 PM

It would stand to reason that 3F would work best in 45 cal cartridges and smaller.
You didn't say what brand(s) of powder will be available to you.

Those who load 3F in .45 cartridges (a minority in the BPCR community) usually do so to try for more muzzle velocity.
Most who have then talked about it say that it burns 'dirtier' than the larger granulations.

If you will be buying Goex, you might consider the 'Cartridge' granulation. It is (sorta) between 2F and 3F, and more uniform than the F grades...unless you are talking about Goex Express.

Your shopping list doesn't include a tool for decapping cases without resizing the brass. I use a press-mounted Lee 'universal' die, but a portable number is good for decapping at the shooting bench...prior to dropping empties into the water jug to soak.
A Lee hand press would get that done, using the same die that I have.
CM

Don McDowell

01-08-2009, 03:45 PM

Make sure you have a good blackpowder bullet lube. You likely won't need grease cookies.
Depending on what dies you already have if you need a die set then get the Lymans, if you have dies then just get the M die for the 45-70 you can use it for a compression die.
Droptube not really needed but helpful.

For the powder I'ld suggest getting a couple of pounds each of Grafs 2f, Goex Cartridge, and Goex 2f Express. The Goex powders , specifically the Cartridge happens to be the hands down favorite of 2, 45 rifles living here at my place.

JeffinNZ

01-08-2009, 05:15 PM

Joe - for a drop tube I am using a alum. arrow shaft. A lot cheaper than buying a ready made tube.

boommer

01-08-2009, 06:06 PM

RCBS universal de-capping die works for a compression die pull the pin . just take a 1/4 28 (fine thread ) 3 1/2 inch long bolt take a threading die run the thread up the bolt inch or so then grind the bolt head round to what ever caliber you need. Adjust to where ever you want, works for me

Boerrancher

01-09-2009, 09:21 AM

Graf's was sold out of lots of stuff. I have been going there for about a year and have never seen them out of as much stuff as they were yesterday. I did get 4 lbs of Goex, got all 4 lbs for $43 including tax. I also bought a drop tube that fits on my old lyman 55, and yes it is one with a brass rotor. They were out of most of the common caliber moulds. I couldn't buy a 30-30 reloading die set as they were sold out. They were out of a good amount of brass. People are going nuts stocking up it would seem.

I have a decaping rod that I knock the primers out with. I don't resize as I don't need to with my Sharps, and it is easier to load the PP boolits if I don't. I also found out that I can use my Lyman 310 expander die as a compression die. I loaded up 10 last night with 77 gr of the Holy Black. I can't wait to get to the range this afternoon just to see how they shoot.

I can see how this could be come a serious affliction. I had more fun loading up those 10 rounds for the range today than I have in a long while. I am sure that there is a learning curve with this just like anything else, so I will see how it goes today and start making adjustments to my load.

I know to keep the Holy Black away from anything plastic that or that might generate a static spark, and the common sense stuff like heat and open flame. Is there any thing else I need to be aware of when it comes to safety? It has been a long time since I played with Black Powder and I am sure I have forgotten some of the do's and don'ts.

Best wishes and Thanks for all your help.

Joe

Boz330

01-09-2009, 09:54 AM

Joe, what boolit are you shooting? 77grs sounds like a bunch of powder, although Goex likes a bunch of compression.
Yeh, it is addictive, the next thing you know you start doing extra little operations that you wouldn't even consider with smokeless to get that extra little grain of accuracy.:mrgreen: After loading BP for awhile and you go back to the smokeless it seems so quick and easy, you think you have forgotten something.
As far as safety, BP equals common sense. There is a web site that sparks the he!! out of some BP with static electricity and NOTHING. Personally I wouldn't push my luck though. My old Lyman Ideal 55 has a brass rotor and plastic hopper and I have used it for BP before, but then I used to run with scissors to.
If you aren't getting into serious BP competition and don't want to deal with the fowling, you could always use a duplex load.
Have fun.

Bob

cajun shooter

01-09-2009, 10:02 AM

Boerrancher, It does my heart good to read your post. You have already noticed that just shooting Bp takes some extra time but it's filled with gratification. Knowing that you are doing it the old way and are in a different group from the smokeless crowd. They have several people that use BP in the plastic hopper measures, I don't. I have the Lyman and RCBS BP measures. WE just finished a thread about it. My Luck will keep me playing by the rules. Your brass drum is a big help. Graf's with everyone else is going through the Obama scare. If you need anything and can't find it ,Please give me a PM and if I have it , You have it. I bought from Lyman, the 7/8 adapter, small drop tube and lock nut for $6. You might bive them a call and see if you can purchase the aluminum hopper for your 55. Welcome to the "DARK SIDE"

montana_charlie

01-09-2009, 12:26 PM

The biggest problem with static charges, where BP meets plastic, is when the granules stick to the plastic instead of dropping through. A dryer 'softener' sheet removes most of that problem.
CM

zampilot

01-09-2009, 07:50 PM

It would be easier to post a pic of my ...gun room than list all of the stuff. It's fun as can be, most of your stuff will be a one-time purchase.

Catshooter

01-09-2009, 08:10 PM

zampilot,

I'd say post away! We'd all like to see your gun room I'm sure.

Cat

Knarley

01-09-2009, 08:35 PM

Don't forget a blow tube!!!! Helps keep the fouling softer at the range.
Knarley

Southern Son

01-10-2009, 02:07 AM

Joe,
You should add a sense of humour to you list of must haves. This black powder will take over your life. IT IS GREAT.

I don't know what your rifle will throw it's boolits out at, but 75gr of Wano FF is getting 1175fps with a a 535gr Steve Brookes Creedmore out of my Spagetti Hiwall. Shoots good. The boolit has the first 2 driving bands at .459. the next .450 and the rest .449. With only 2 driving bands in the case, there is room for more powder (which is always a good thing). In the past I have used a 0.150 grease cookie in the case, I am thinking that if I chuck that, I will get to 80gr and still only have minimal compression (at the moment I am compressing less than .100).

Boerrancher

01-10-2009, 09:21 AM

I ordered a new mould yesterday, should be here on monday for my 45-70. I ordered an original 405 gr Hollow base mould. I am wanting to see how it shoots with it. I am hoping it will drop at around 460 to 461, instead of 459 like it says. My bore is 460 in the groves just like the original Cav Carbines that were produced for the Army. I beagled my 340 gr mould so that it would drop 460, and so far it is doing well with 60 gr of IMR3031, and not leaving any lead. I know that If I am not leading with 3031 I shouldn't have any problems with the Holy Black. I will be going back to Graf's on the 29th of this month and I am going to pick up another 4 lbs of GOEX this time in 2F.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

SharpsShooter

01-11-2009, 03:57 PM

Joe,

Even if the HB mould drops them at tad bit small, the HB aspect will compensate by expanding to proper diameter when fired which was the sole purpose of the design to start with. (You knew that I'm sure) Cast them soft and of course use the correct lube and it will likely be good to go if your twist rate is suitable for the boolit. It is terribbly addictive and I have very few smokeless firing arms because of it. Your 44-40 levergunis a prime candidate for BP too ya know.

SS

RMulhern

01-15-2009, 02:07 PM

Patience!!

Boerrancher

01-15-2009, 10:11 PM

I stopped by Graf's again today as I had to make a run up to Mexico with a neighbor and friend. He was impressed with Graf's as he had never been there. I picked up a couple founds of Graf's 2F. I want to see how it compares to the 3F Goex as far as fouling, velocity, and accuracy. I can't complain about how clean the Goex burns, but I am hoping the Graf's is better since it is suppose to be the swiss formulation.

Should I compress it or shoot loosely packed? I was thinking about 55 gr of it slightly compressed with a 405 gr HB boolit. Since this is a new game for me I am open to any suggestions. I don't think I can get 70 gr in the case with the 405 boolit as this is new brass. I am also not sure I am tough enough to shoot 70 grs on a 405 gr boolit. Once I get the brass fire formed I may try it.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Don McDowell

01-15-2009, 10:21 PM

You can do it.:-D
I shoot 70 grs 2f, or Cartridge with 535s' and 75 grs with 520 gr paperpatch.

The fouling Grafs (sheutzen) powder leaves isn't bad, but I don't get the accuracy that Cartride or 2f Express gives.

How much to compress is anybody's guess, you, the rifle, bullet,powder and target are all going to have to reach a mutual agreement.

Boz330

01-16-2009, 10:34 AM

This is just my personal opinion but I would go with at least .100 and about 60gr. Just use wads to make up the difference if you have to. You can start experimenting from there.

Bob

SharpsShooter

01-16-2009, 11:09 AM

This is just my personal opinion but I would go with at least .100 and about 60gr. Just use wads to make up the difference if you have to. You can start experimenting from there.

Bob

Boz,

If he uses that 405gr hollow base boolit, he won't want a wad as they cause fliers with that sort. I'd fill any extra space with COW.

SS

Boerrancher

01-16-2009, 11:46 AM

I found out I could get almost a 10th of an inch compression by using 66 grains of the 2 F with that 405 gr HB. This was before I read your post Bob. I had thought about using a wad and 55 grs but I really didn't think it would work with the HB. I am trying to figure out a way to shoot reduced loads with that 405 gr HB other than using COW. I have issues with COW. I have shot my breakfast with my rifle before but I just can't get past shooting my breakfast in my rifle.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Boerrancher

01-16-2009, 12:00 PM

cajun shooter

01-16-2009, 12:58 PM

You might want to try Goex Cartridge for some good results. This was made for this very purpose. I tried to send you a pm about this before your trip to Graf's but my PC cable box took a nose dive and I just now had it repaired. Kenny Wassenburg has set some records with it and posted his results. I'm so happy that you are now hooked on the "HOLY BLACK". There is no going back and why should you. You are now shooting the correct way.

Boz330

01-16-2009, 01:26 PM

Yep I agree with you, but that doesn't seem that it works the way you think it would. After the rung chamber that I had and talking to Ernie Stalman I like some level of compression, YMMV. I didn't think about the hollow base.
As far as filler another option might be Kapok I have tried that in my Martini Henry but wasn't as accurate as the active filler. Plus it looks like a snowstorm after the shot. If you would like to try some I have a couple lifetime supplies of it I can send you some.

Bob

RMulhern

01-16-2009, 01:48 PM

Don McDowell

01-16-2009, 02:12 PM

. Kenny Wassenburg has set some records with it

Not sure what Kenny used to set his previuous records, but the latest batch of them have been using GOEX 1 F Express.

Boer don't make this any harder than needs be. F size does matter as even tho we turn the bp charge into a solid plug, the burn rate and velocity still matters as to what size the powder started at. The higher pressures generated by the more f's in a powder will make the fouling less bother. The lower pressured loads will foul more.
Just make sure the powder and bullet or wad and bullet are in firm contact. (don't even need to compress it) and go from there. Sometimes with some bullets zero compression works rather well. Ever heard of a champion muzzleloader shooter mention compression?

"reduced" loads are better left for smokeless.

Boerrancher

01-16-2009, 04:22 PM

I know that when I use to shoot my Hawken front stuffer, I would very gently seat the ball against the powder. I found that it was much more accurate than what some other guys I knew were doing, like slamming the rod down the bore until it bounced. I always figured the closer the ball was to round the better it would shoot. I didn't think of compression, I just knew the ball had to touch the powder.

I was going to shoot today and it started snowing. I don't mind shooting when it is 10 below but when the wind is whipping and the snow is blowing I would rather stay inside and feed the fire place.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Irascible

01-27-2009, 11:22 AM

One thing I found very handy is a Lee hand press equipped with a Lyman (or?) universal decapping die. I de-cap right at the range and throw the cases into a 2 liter juice jug full of water and a good shot of dish soap. It rolls around on the floor of my truck during the trip home and acts like a washing machine. When I get home, I give the cases a quick rinse while running a large nylon bore brush in and out of the case. then I throw them in the tumbler wet, leave the lid off and tumble until they're dry. About every 5th loading you can soak the cases in some vinager to remove the stains if it really bothers you.

BPCR Bill

01-27-2009, 11:59 AM

I have been thinking about this and can't quite wrap my head around it. We take different 1 1/2 F, 2F or 3 F black powder and load it into a cartridge and then just mash the crap out of it until it is almost a solid block, like a pyrodex pellet, in some cases. It would seem to me that once it is compressed the FFG size would no longer apply. Also would it not stand to reason that if you wanted to pack something tighter wouldn't you use a smaller FFG? It just seems to me that the rules are running backwards to the way they should be.

As you all can tell, I have been thinking a great deal. Not always a good thing as it usually results in my trying something I shouldn't. Once again every one of you Holy Black cartridge shooters here need to kick yourselves for me, for making me think so long and hard about this. Not only did you get me hooked, but now I am trying to figure out the science, i.e. physics behind the internal ballistics of BPCR.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

P.S. Don't forget to kick yourselves for me.Joe, Your thoughts are on a good track regarding compression, and I guess that term can be widely defined. The reason we use a drop tube of between 18" & 24" is so the powder will settle in the cartridge, but that only happens to a degree. If you drop charges, and then tap the case rim on the table, you will notice that the powder will settle even more. That being said, some of us use compression dies, some of us will hold cases against a vibratory tumbler, and I've even seen some fellows use a vibrating etcher tool to settle powder in cases. Dan Pharris, noted single shot gunsmith and contributing writer to The Black Powder Cartridge News, wrote an article on powder compression a few years back. His argument was that back in the day of "Extreme Black Powder Accuracy", shooters went through the trouble of screening all their powders. When a guy does that, why would he mechanically compress a load (using a compression die) and risk breaking up the granules, thus changing the burn rate of the powder? I quit mechanically compressing loads and the accuracy of my ammunition has improved dramatically. Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to go kick myself.

Regards,
Bill

montana_charlie

01-27-2009, 01:35 PM

Boerrancher

01-27-2009, 02:59 PM

Joe, Your thoughts are on a good track regarding compression, and I guess that term can be widely defined. The reason we use a drop tube of between 18" & 24" is so the powder will settle in the cartridge, but that only happens to a degree. If you drop charges, and then tap the case rim on the table, you will notice that the powder will settle even more. That being said, some of us use compression dies, some of us will hold cases against a vibratory tumbler, and I've even seen some fellows use a vibrating etcher tool to settle powder in cases. Dan Pharris, noted single shot gunsmith and contributing writer to The Black Powder Cartridge News, wrote an article on powder compression a few years back. His argument was that back in the day of "Extreme Black Powder Accuracy", shooters went through the trouble of screening all their powders. When a guy does that, why would he mechanically compress a load (using a compression die) and risk breaking up the granules, thus changing the burn rate of the powder? I quit mechanically compressing loads and the accuracy of my ammunition has improved dramatically. Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to go kick myself.

Regards,
Bill

Bill,

What little I have gotten to shoot because of the bad weather, I have noticed that I seem to get my best accuracy so far out of the Graf's 2F Run through a 24 inch drop tube and then tapped on the bench until it has completely settled. By doing this with 70 grs of powder when I seat the 405 gr HB boolit on it their is just minimal compression i.e. a 1/16 of an inch when I crimp the case mouth on to the boolit. I am going to have to try this with the 3F and see if I get any better results. I am not trying to my my rifle into a target rifle, as it is a military carbine, but it would sure be nice to find a load that will give MOA groups at 100 yds. This load of 70 grs of 2F may do it, I didn't have a blow tube nor did I wipe between shots. The last time I shot I was trying to adjust the front sight and after 10 rounds the accuracy went to pot right after I got it hitting where I wanted it to. I came home and cleaned it, and later on I shot it at my 100 yard square plate target while standing on my deck, and had five shots in less than 6 in. I could easily cover all 5 of them with the palm of my hand. Not bad for off hand shooting. Good enough to kill a deer or a 'yote and that is all I need that rifle to do.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

PS thanks for kicking yourself

montana_charlie

01-27-2009, 03:36 PM

i.e. a 1/16 of an inch when I crimp the case mouth on to the boolit.
It is generally advised that you not crimp when using BP...at least not more than enough to barely remove any 'flare' created to get the bullet started without damage to the base.
CM

SharpsShooter

01-27-2009, 05:16 PM

It is generally advised that you not crimp when using BP...at least not more than enough to barely remove any 'flare' created to get the bullet started without damage to the base.
CM

.......or you can use a taper crimp. Crimping can enhance accuracy due to a more consistent ignition and powder burn. The .22 Rimfire is an example, being heavily crimped and one of our most accurate rounds.

Works for me anyway. I observed a competitor at a sillywet match carry his ammo to the line leaving a trail of postells in the gravel and grass. It was amusing to watch him on hands and knees searching through the grass. Try both methods. Your rifle will tell you what it likes

SS

w30wcf

01-28-2009, 10:15 PM

Joe,
Regarding the .45-70 Military Carbine cartridge of 55 grs. b.p. / 400 gr. bullet, the bullet was seated deeper into the case right down on top of the powder. The original cartridges did look a little strange with a lot less of the bullet sticking out of the case.

w30wcf

Toothmaker

01-28-2009, 10:53 PM

Boerrancher

01-29-2009, 09:30 PM

MC,

I have to put a slight crimp on the boolit since I don't resize my cases. It is much easier and my rifle seems to like it better than when I resize the cases, and besides I don't like picking up boolits off the ground.

SS,

I don't roll crimp anything. All I have are taper crimp dies. Years ago when I first started casting and reloading for my 1894 Marlin 357mag rifle, I found that I went through brass faster, and my accuracy was not as good when I roll crimped. I backed the seating die off enough to remove the bell and then had problems with the boolits being jammed back in the case while in the magazine because of recoil. My mentor and friend suggested a taper crimp, so I saved up my hay hauling money and bought one. I was all of 9 years old then. That was nearly 30 years ago this summer, and I have been taper crimping my cast boolits every since. It seems to work in all of my lever guns, pistols and revolvers, so I figured it would work in my single shot Sharp's.

Best wishes form the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Boerrancher

01-29-2009, 09:52 PM

I have a Kropaycheck 8x60R rifle. It is a black powder cartrage. The rifle is a bear to clean after shooting. I would like to know if there is a conversion to smokeless powder somewhere out there. I under stand there are some powders I can use.

Toothmaker,

I am not familiar with that particular cartridge, but it shouldn't be much different than an 8X57 mauser round. I would try about 10 grs of Unique to start out and work your way up to no more than 14 grs and see how that works for you. I am making the assumption that the old gun is in good shape and is serviceable. I would also like to see some others chime in on my suggestion as I said, I am not familiar with a Kropatcheck 8x60R.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

SharpsShooter

01-30-2009, 09:52 AM

I have a Kropaycheck 8x60R rifle. It is a black powder cartrage. The rifle is a bear to clean after shooting. I would like to know if there is a conversion to smokeless powder somewhere out there. I under stand there are some powders I can use.

Not to hijack Joe's thread, but Toothmaker, if you are having trouble cleaning up after a Black Powder cartridge rifle, you are doing something wrong.

Black powder cleans up fast with very little effort providing the correct boolit lube has been used. There are many elixirs and potions out there to use, but plain hot water with a squirt of Dawn dish soap is just dandy. If hot water is not available, cold will work also. For many years I used windsheild washer fluid. A gallon jug of that blue stuff would cost a little over a buck and last a long time. Of course it is important to dry patch it thoroughly and oil it well to prevent corrosion. I simply patch it dry and spray WD40 down the bore until it runs out. Some say WD40 is not a good choice, but I have used it for over 25 years and never lost one to rust, even when stored for 6 months at a time.

I mentioned boolit lube earlier and if you are not using a lube that is formulated for Black Powder, therein lies your cleaning problem. Petroleum based lubes that work for Smokeless powders, do not work for Black. The combination of petroleum and black powder create a tar-like coating in the bore which is difficult to remove and will impair accuracy as well.

SS

Addenum: If you have to shoot smokeless, 28gr of IMR 4198 and the Lyman 321232 will give you 1670fps according to my cartridges of the world 11th edition. It is interesting to note that 75gr of Fg and the same boolit is nearly a hundred fps faster. The military load was a 247gr lead boolit and 70gr of Fg and it would runn 1700fps. Neat old cartridge.

BPCR Bill

01-30-2009, 12:10 PM

I've seen a few pictures posted (by guys who are into the 'history' of the BPCR buffalo guns) which show the 'kit' used by old time hunters.
One of the standard tools has a round handle like a screwdriver, and an end shaped like a Lyman 'M' expander. However, the small diameter part is a slip fit in a rifle case, while the large diameter prevents entry into the mouth. The tool (called a 'follower') is used to compress the powder charge to a given depth.

CMCharlie, I have seen the followers you mention. It was a part of the kit, yes, and it was used. I was speaking of the guys that were shooting for accuracy, like the Creedmore matches. I have attached a photo of my wooden homemade follower, and I use that pretty much for squarely seating a wad over the powder column. You really have to put some pressure on that device to compress powder, and I built that with a palm sized hardwood ball. The stop is a standard drill bit stop, and the dowel is 7/16" hardwood. Pictured above that is the .45 cal compression die that sees very little use anymore.

Regards,
Bill