Remember how I said I haven't had any leading problems? Scratch that.

[Airweight38]

Heh.

So far, I've thought I was doing alright with not getting much leading. I've smelted some of my Dad's old lead into ingots and I've smelted some range lead into ingots and shot low-powered loads (38SPL .358 dia. 160gr DEWC 3.5 gr. Unique) with minimal leading. Anywhere between 25-50 shots and haven't had to do any extra passes with my Bore Snake in my 4" Smith & Wesson 686.

Yea, so then Tuesday night I shot 100 rounds where I upped my charge to 4.0 gr (because my powder wasn't burning completely), and they shot very well, and my problem went away with sparks falling out of my muzzle. I did not get a chance to clean my gun that night.

Wednesday, I shot 100 more rounds of these 4.0gr-charge cartridges, and they shot well, too.

Then I got home from the range, sat down to clean my gun and stuck my pen light in the barrel and had a look-see.

Oh. Holy. Night. Did I have leading. If I had to quantify it, you might say about an hour's worth of leading. It was shearing off of the rifling in 1" flakes. I could barely drag my Bore Snake through.

So, true to form, I have a litany of questions:

1) Is it more critical to clean daily after shooting when dealing with Pb bullets? (I try to do this, but my schedule frankly does not always allow me to do that)?

2) Where do I start in fixing this? I keep reading about slugging the barrel and getting a mold that sizes out 0.001 larger than the bore. But how do I slug a revolver? Yes, I know I push a soft bullet through it, but how is that even possible when the revolver doesn't break open so I can feed it trough from the cylinder-side?

3) I keep reading different opinions on lead hardness and leading. I've read opinions that softer alloys make for a better lower-velocity round, since they mold to the barrel and seal, while harder alloys are needed for higher-velocity rounds. Others say harder alloys good for everything? What works for you guys?

I don't know what my current alloy is. I haven't added anything to it. I fills my mold cavities well and doesn't seem to shrink much. And it's much too hard to smash with a fingernail. You now know as much about it as I do.

4) Any other suggestions?

Thanks to everyone for all the continued help!

/Jason

[docone31]

What are you using for lube?
I use water dropped wheel weight and do not get any leading at all. I size .358.
I also pan lube.

[Airweight38]

What are you using for lube?
I use water dropped wheel weight and do not get any leading at all. I size .358.
I also pan lube.

I pan lube using Lee Liquid Alox. I also size .358.

[docone31]

I have never used LLA. I have never had leading either.
I make my lube.
55% beeswax
45% Vaseline
A tad of Marvel Mystery Oil
Some Castrol Stick Wax for luck.
I also use Blue Dot for my loads.

[DLCTEX]

I size 38's (WW and WW/pure) to .359 and lube with 50/50 with some carnuba added, no leading problems after hundreds of rounds without cleaning.Loaded hot or mild.

[Down South]

To slug the barrel, drive the oversized soft slug in from the bore end. Smith's are hard to measure the slug due to the five groove barrel but once the barrel is slugged the slug should be able to be pushed through the cylinder bores with little or no pressure.
I would be willing to bet that the 686 would digest a .358" slug fine if your hardness and lube are right. But I, like Dale size to .359"

[eka]

Slug the throats of your cylinder. You are wanting to match that size. Ideally, you are trying to use the largest boolit that will chamber into the cylinder charge holes. Hopefully, your cylinder throats are .001 or more larger than the groove diameter of your barrel.

As far as cleaning goes. If you start laying down lead, it doesn't take long for the condition to multiply exponentially. Lead loves to stick to lead. So, once it starts, it will get bad pretty quick. I know a lot of folks really like those bore snakes, but I'm an old fashioned patch and bronze brush kinda guy. A pass with a dry bronze brush every now and then would probably serve you better.

Lead alloy that is too hard will not obturate properly. That doesn't mean that your lead was too hard, but it can happen. I have shot boolits that are air cooled and water dropped. It really hasn't made much difference for me in low to moderate revolver loads.

I have no experience with LLA at all. I use FWFL for everything I do that needs lube. But, from what I have read from others, it works pretty well and should do OK for what you were doing.

I size my .38 / .357 loads at .358 and have found that's big enough to take care of most guns of that caliber across the board.

Any copper in your bore? I know we mostly think of that in terms of rifles, but I know when I shoot for qualification using copper jacket ammo in the .45 ACP, there are streaks of orange there bright as can be.

Other than the unknown hardness of your alloy, it appears you are doing everything pretty much OK. If you have a bunch of boolits made up and you want them softer, you could try a reverse heat treating method. Put them in the oven and heat them up and then turn the oven off and let them come to room temp. No personal experience with this method, but I have heard it works.

Don't know that I have helped you any.

Keith

[Junior1942]

I pan lube using Lee Liquid Alox. I also size .358.Do you re-lube after sizing? If not, try it.

[Bret4207]

Well, lets do this the easy way. First off get some 4/0 steel wool or a Chore Boy copper scrubber and wrap some around a worn brass brush. Use a little Hoppes or other solvent and clean the barrel and all the chambers paying special attn to the chamber's throats. You want them lead free, jacket fouling free and lube/powder residue free. IOW- REALLY CLEAN! Then lightly lube the gun and take one of your sized boolits and see if it will slide freely into all the chamber mouths. If it does that means, as a general rule, they're a bit too small. In that case try and unsized boolit. Either way, when you get one that requires at least firm pressure to enter the chamber mouth you're off to a good start. Then see if it will go in the muzzle and the barrel throat, not pushing too hard because you can stick one, especially in the muzzle end, and not be able to get it out. On a properly set up gun the boolit should NOT enter the muzzle and if anything should only start a very short distance in the throat/forcing cone end. If that's all good then take which ever boolit wouldn't go in the cylinder and load up a dummy round. See if the cylinder will accept the loaded cartridge. If so try those rounds and see if the accuracy and leading aren't better.

That's sort of the red neck Bubba way of doing things, but it's worked for a lot of guys who didn't have access to mics and measuring equipment. It ain't the best way to do it, but it'll get you there.

[44man]

Old same stuff! Jack up a fast powder load with a soft boolit and it is going almost as fast as it will go as it enters the forcing cone. INSTANT PUTTY!
Yeah, some say make it softer so it seals. :confused: That's when lead squirts out of the cylinder gap. Might as well shoot Jello. :mrgreen: I think at that point, all of the lube is also gone before the boolit enters the barrel.
On top of that the soft boolit skids and opens up gas vents because the land marks are larger then the lands.
Fit the boolit to the throats and make it harder.

Ever wonder why some calibers and boolits don't lead a bore with a soft alloy? If the boolit is long, by the time the base engages the rifling, it is turning. Shoot a real short boolit and it is down the bore before it turns, it skids too far! Wide open gas vents.
Shoot a soft boolit at 900 fps with Bullseye, then at the same speed with 2400. Which one will lead the bore more?
I have always said, the faster the powder the harder the boolit needs to be.

[jonk]

I'd agree that for revolvers, hard is good due to the jump. For a semi auto though, I prefer a medium to soft lead- not dead soft but fairly soft.

[Bret4207]

I have always said, the faster the powder the harder the boolit needs to be.

I'll stick with maintaining it depends both on the particular gun, the powders used and the boolit design. I haven't run into anything yet I couldn't handle with WQWW alloy, but that's just me and I don't play with superduperwozermagnums.

[44man]

I'll stick with maintaining it depends both on the particular gun, the powders used and the boolit design. I haven't run into anything yet I couldn't handle with WQWW alloy, but that's just me and I don't play with superduperwozermagnums.
You are entirely correct. I have even shot 50-50 WW and pure with slow powders without a problem, water dropped of course.
But some of the lead pickups and other ingots guys use can be way too soft.
The point you missed was the trouble can happen more in the little guns like the .38 very fast because guys don't realize pressure is still high but think a dead soft boolit is fine. Sometimes a magnum with larger and longer boolits will have LESS trouble.

[TAWILDCATT]

I shoot range lead and also WW.I have a smith mod 10 and a 1911 45 I shoot all season with out cleaning,no leading.I shoot a 1903 with lees 312 160 tumble lube and no leading at 1680 fts.your mix is to soft.I have not hardend them .
:coffee: [smilie=1:

[Recluse]

In my 686 and Mod 19, I shoot (traditional) banded 148 WCs that I tumble lube with a mixture of LLA, JPW and mineral spirits. First tumble is a very light coating of the mix. Let dry, then I size to .358. Then I give them another tumble lube, let dry and then either box up or load them up.

But there is only one load for me with this bullet and it's the same load I've been loading and shooting for almost four decades.

2.8 grains of Bullseye.

I've never had any leading with these boolits and tumble-lube mixture. In fact, I can shoot a hundred rounds and run a dry patch through the barrel several times, and it is as shiny as it can be.

[Airweight38]

Do you re-lube after sizing? If not, try it.

I tried two things on my last batch and the leading is reduced to the point that it's not an issue anymore:

1) I relubed after sizing (thanks, Junior!), and:

2) I water-quenched, as I understand that hardens them a bit.

So, it looks like this is no longer much of an issue. Thanks to all for the great input! Not sure which fixed it, or if it was a combination of the two, but I'm glad I'm not brushing lead flakes into my lap for hours on end anymore. :D