Black Powder substitute

[beemer]

I have always used Goex, never liked fake powder. I talked to my local guy, he said that BP is sometimes hard to find. That being the case what is the best substitute powder for a ML rifle ? I already know I ain't going to like it, probably don't smell right. Just don't want dive into making my own.

Dave

[rodwha]

I only have experience with Pyrodex and Triple 7. I much prefer Triple 7 because it barely fouls, however I’ve generally just used it in revolvers. I’ve often read of the dreaded “crud ring” which I’ve seen explained as due to heavy charges through inlines mostly or from too hot of an ignition that the 209’s provide. Percussion caps ignites both for me just fine.

Pyrodex fouls much more but isn’t quite as strong as Triple 7, which is on par with (in handguns) sporting grade powders such as Swiss and Olde Eynsford (and a few others). From what little I’ve seen Pyrodex tends to either produce similar results to Goex or comes closer to Swiss (in handguns). It could well be differences in powders tested and reported on 20 years ago compared to last year. Who knows? However you could easily use less powder to achieve similar results. Another consideration is that these powders weigh a fair amount less than BP so you’re getting more powder per pound bottle, a little something for the elevated cost.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello beemer,

I've been shooting Triple Seven 3F in my long guns for years.
Unable to pick up real Black in our area.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Shawlerbrook]

Another satisfied 777 user.

[Tar Heel]

Been using Pyrodex for decades in percussion guns, mostly revolvers. Great stuff. I only use holy black in the flintlocks. I also hunt with a patched RB, not a sabot slug. If you have one of those modern thangs, an inline I think it's called, the 777 may be what the doctor ordered.

[freakonaleash]

You can mail order real black powder and they will deliver it right to your door. There must be a 1/2 dozen outfits that will do mail order.

[mooman76]

I've had good luck with Pyrodex. I've shot it for over 30 years because getting real Black was hard to come by.

[frogleg]

I started with Pyrodex when I bought my 1st. Caplock Thompson center in the 80s and it worked fine and it was easy to find. I joined a local club and we bough’t real black in bulk, and I began shooting flintlocks so I quit using pyrodex. I have used 777 in my cap locks and it does clean up easy but kind of expensive. —-If I could not find real black ——and I was shooting cap locks I would shoot 777. Or I would use Pyrodex and make sure I cleaned soon after shooting, and follow up soon after. It seems to be more corrosive than real black.

[Buzzard II]

Try Powder, Inc. for the real black. Jerry is good to deal with. Good shooting.
Bob

[Sasquatch-1]

If you ever get to the Washington D. C. area there is a guy just outside Winchester Va. that sells real black powder. The name of his business is Back Creek Gun Shop. Only thing is you have to call and make an appointment.

BACK CREEK GUN SHOP, INC
863 Chestnut Grove Road * Winchester, VA 22603
PHONE: (540) 888 3349 -
E-MAIL: bcgsi@hughes.net
barrel
Web page: blackpowderva.com


Back Creek Gun Shop, Inc. has been selling black powder since 1972.
We are located 7 miles north of Winchester, VA
Adjacent to the North - South Skirmish Association Range
as you exit Ft. Shenandoah Range

[Buzzard II]

If you ever get to the Washington D. C. area there is a guy just outside Winchester Va. that sells real black powder. The name of his business is Back Creek Gun Shop. Only thing is you have to call and make an appointment.

BACK CREEK GUN SHOP, INC
863 Chestnut Grove Road * Winchester, VA 22603
PHONE: (540) 888 3349 -
E-MAIL: bcgsi@hughes.net
barrel
Web page: blackpowderva.com


Back Creek Gun Shop, Inc. has been selling black powder since 1972.
We are located 7 miles north of Winchester, VA
Adjacent to the North - South Skirmish Association Range
as you exit Ft. Shenandoah Range

Jackie is good to deal with too! He always has a good stock on hand!

[FLINTNFIRE]

I used to be able to buy black powder at several places in the local area , but years ago as shops closed it became harder to find , then in the late 90's I saw it for sale in the shotgun news , since the internet has come along there are places like powder inc. , back creek , jacks powder keg ,powder valley , and grafs where it can be ordered .

I tried pyrodex when it came out , never had the rust issue as I clean when done shooting , but there was a hot day and it seemed to change as the day got warmer and it was exposed to sunlight , have bought no more and never needed to use any other subs .

[wgr]

Real black is not hard to find. the thing is dealers have to have aproved storage for it.

[mooman76]

Just because it's not hard to find in your area doesn't make it not hard to find. Some places just flat quit selling it and there is No place close that sells it.

[Tar Heel]

Everybody knows that Black Powder (and BP substitutes) can be purchased ONLINE and delivered to your door right? If you "can't get it in your area" then you are simply not trying to get it and are just whining about it. If you are reading this then you are online. So go to Grafs.com or several other places online and order your powder. Then the UPS or FEDEX truck will show up with Black Powder for you and bingo - there will be black powder in your area. :-)

[beemer]

My favorite gun shop sells black, he was the one that said it was getting hard to get. He does have some but not the amount he usually does, might just pick up another pound or two. All the other dealers in this area have quit selling it. I have several traditional rifles I have built and am gathering parts for a couple more, also have been dabbling with flintlocks.

I might try a can to see how it works. Want to thank everyone for your comments.

Dave

[megasupermagnum]

777 is the best substitute that I'm aware of for muzzleloaders. There's others that work, Pyrodex works, but I can't think of anything they do that 777 can't. Blackhorn 209 is good in an inline rifle with 209 primers, but nothing else. I'm not aware of anyone that is happy with any substitute as a prime for a flintlock.

That said, blackpowder is still easy to get with some thought, especially when you live in the eastern USA. Not every store sells it anymore, but I've never seen anywhere you were more than a hundred miles from the nearest source. A quick search shows Lead Chunkers Sporting Goods in Rockwell, NC sells Goex powder. There's probably more without you knowing it. If all else fails, buying powder online is as easy now as it ever will be. Brick and mortar stores simply have not been good at being competitive with online prices. Yes, shipping adds cost, but you can buy Goex right now for $22.19 a pound from Grafs, $19 a pound from Jacks, or even $16 a pound for Jacks name brand, which is Goex in FFFg only. Buying in person from Track of the Wolf, that price of Goex was around $28 two years ago, maybe more now with the shortages. I could buy powder from Track of the Wolfs website, and have it shipped to the store for cheaper than they were asking for the powder in their safe. My last purchase was from Grafs. Very good price, 10 pound minimum, but I could mix and match all I wanted. If you buy 25 pounds without mixing, Jacks Powder Keg has outstanding prices, especially if you can pick up that order from a shooting event.

[Gtrubicon]

A week ago I was looking for fff powder, 2 days ago it was delivered. And I live in California.

[idahoron]

I have used nothing but Pyrodex P in all my rifles for well over a dozen years. No place local to me carries black and to be honest I wouldn't buy it if it were here. I have way too much good luck with the P. That said you have already said you don't like fake powder so buy a bunch of real black pay the hazmat fees and get what you want. That way guys like me that want the "fake" powder don't have competition from guys buying it that don't like it.

[centershot]

I've been fortunate to be able to buy BP locally, although it's expensive. When I get low, I'll go mail order, saves me about 40%. As far as a substitute, the only one I would ever use again is Triple 7. None of the other subs are as clean burning or have the shelf life of T7.

[toot]

can T-777, be used in flint lock as a main charge? and will a pan of 4-FG. make it happen? in other words will it work straight up as the only powder charge, no 10 GRS. of black powder under / behind the T-777?

[rodwha]

can T-777, be used in flint lock as a main charge? and will a pan of 4-FG. make it happen? in other words will it work straight up as the only powder charge, no 10 GRS. of black powder under / behind the T-777?

No, it would need a small BP booster charge to be reliable.

[Adam Helmer]

I have always used Goex, never liked fake powder. I talked to my local guy, he said that BP is sometimes hard to find. That being the case what is the best substitute powder for a ML rifle ? I already know I ain't going to like it, probably don't smell right. Just don't want dive into making my own.

Dave

beemer,

What are you shooting a flintlock or caplock? ONCE we know the question, we may have a good answer. Be Well.

Adam

[toot]

rowdha, thank you for the reply. how much of a booster charge is needed to make it happen / fire off the T-777 main charge? toot.

[toot]

rowdha, I forgot to ask , the booster garage, what granulation of black would I use? 4F, 3F or 2F, ? thanks again, toot.

[mooman76]

5 or 10 gns. Whatever granulation you want or would normally use in it.

[rodwha]

^
This. Doesn’t need much, 5-10 grns should be good, and any BP granulation would work. Just reduce your T7 charge by the amount of BP you used. Do post back your experiences when you try.

[toot]

mooman, thank you sir for the reply. toot.

[toot]

rodwha, thank you for the reply to my question. I am going to try it out today. will let you & mooman76, how I make out. toot.

[beemer]

beemer,

What are you shooting a flintlock or caplock? ONCE we know the question, we may have a good answer. Be Well.

Adam

I have caplocks and a flintlock, a half stock caplock is currently on the work bench with another flintlock not far behind. I figured I would need BP kicker for the flintlock.

[Sasquatch-1]

Excuse my ignorance, but if you have access to real black powder why use it as a kicker instead of the full charge? Is it that scarce in your area?

[toot]

yes, it is non existent!

[toot]

well I got out and tried it. it went well out of 15 shots I only had to reprime once. with a limited amount of BP, this is the way to go. T-777 is very clean burning. clean up is quick. toot.

[rodwha]

well I got out and tried it. it went well out of 15 shots I only had to reprime once. with a limited amount of BP, this is the way to go. T-777 is very clean burning. clean up is quick. toot.

Thanks for posting your results!

If you had access the plenty of BP would you still do it? I’ve used a lot of T7 but not through my muzzleloader. I don’t even need lubed wads when shooting ball through my revolver! I still buy and use it a little but Olde Eynsford gives me the same results and is cheaper, and the smoke and smell is a little better.

[megasupermagnum]

yes, it is non existent!

In another thread you said you went to a skirmish, presumably one in Chaplin, CT. There is a Goex dealer only 35 miles away in North Stonington, CT.

You can have it shipped right to your door, have it shipped to your event, or drive 35 extra miles to the distributer. It is not non-existent. I only say this because the thought of having to use a booster charge sounds horrible. I'd give up muzzleloading if I had to do that.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been fortunate to be able to buy BP locally, although it's expensive. When I get low, I'll go mail order, saves me about 40%. As far as a substitute, the only one I would ever use again is Triple 7. None of the other subs are as clean burning or have the shelf life of T7.

Technically Blackhorn 209 is as clean (actually seems cleaner), and has as good a shelf life as 777, but BH209 doesn't work in anything besides an inline rifle with 209 primer ignition either.

[Edward]

Technically Blackhorn 209 is as clean (actually seems cleaner), and has as good a shelf life as 777, but BH209 doesn't work in anything besides an inline rifle with 209 primer ignition either.

It does with a Mag spark 209 conversion ,use it on 6-7 sidelocks but you probably knew that/Ed

[toot]

yes I went to CHAPLIN, CT. where is a BP, dealer in NORTH STONINGTON? it is 7 miles from my house. what is his address and what is the name of his business? the last place to have it close by was FOSTER BEAR ARMS, in FOSTER, RI. and he had a fire and never got his BP, license back.

[megasupermagnum]

This is according to the Goex Dealer Locator.

M&B Sports
647 Lantern Hill
North Stonington, CT 06359-1222

860-536-6640

[megasupermagnum]

It does with a Mag spark 209 conversion ,use it on 6-7 sidelocks but you probably knew that/Ed

I've heard mixed reviews on the mag spark with BH209. I never tried it myself, but I tried it in my Knight TK2000 (inline 12 gauge) and the 2nd or 3rd shot was a blooper. Even the primer you use matters. I'm sure it can work in a sidelock under good conditions, but BH209 is already a powder on the razors edge of not burning unless you use the strongest 209 primers they make. Even in the inline market, when BH 209 first came out people made conversion breech plugs to work with it. I'm glad you have luck with it, but I can't recommend BH 209 for anything besides an inline rifle of 45 to 54 caliber, and with the CCI 209M or Federal 209A primers.

[mooman76]

That dealer locator is crap. I tried it here and it showed 3 places and none of them sell BP. I guess one might call first to double check.

[toot]

megasupermagnum, thank you so much. I am going to give the # a call. never heard of the gun shope? toot.

[toot]

I sure hope he sells real BP,? don't want any substitutes.

[toot]

megasupermagnum, I called him and he only does only appointments. I made one. he said he has been in business for 37 yrs, WOW, I can't beleave that I never even heard about the gun shop? thank you so much for the help you gave me.

[hylander]

can T-777, be used in flint lock as a main charge? and will a pan of 4-FG. make it happen? in other words will it work straight up as the only powder charge, no 10 GRS. of black powder under / behind the T-777?

Yes it will, 777 FFF works best.
Will not work for the flash pan, you still need to use real FFFF

On a side note I have used nearly every sub ever made.
777 is my go to Sub, I have been using it since it first came to market. Works as well and sometimes better than any real BP.
That being said, Real Black is Real Black, just fun to shoot.

[megasupermagnum]

megasupermagnum, I called him and he only does only appointments. I made one. he said he has been in business for 37 yrs, WOW, I can't beleave that I never even heard about the gun shop? thank you so much for the help you gave me.

I'm very glad I could help. As moonman pointed out, sometimes those online dealer locators can be out of date, so you sometimes have to play tag for a while. I'm happy to hear he has the good stuff. I'm surprised there are not more dealers in CT. There probably are, and I've found a number of dealers near me are not listed as such online. A lot of dealers are real old guys, and aren't even listed on google.

[toot]

megasupermagum, yes the old out of the way gun shops are / seem to be the best. he is 85, and retired ARMY. works out of his house, and when I told him how I found him, he said a guy from South Dakota, amazing. I told him every thing now days are just a click away. again thank you for the responce. toot.

[toot]

hylander, thank you for the reply. I was afraid to load my flint lock up and have T-777, not work and have to pull the load. you have allayed my fears about it working in my flint lock. I figured that I would still have to prime with real BP? I am going to step out in my back yard and give it a try. do I have to poke the pan charge into the touch hole or will it flash into it? the guys on this site are just the best, thanks to all. toot.

[hylander]

hylander, thank you for the reply. I was afraid to load my flint lock up and have T-777, not work and have to pull the load. you have allayed my fears about it working in my flint lock. I figured that I would still have to prime with real BP? I am going to step out in my back yard and give it a try. do I have to poke the pan charge into the touch hole or will it flash into it? the guys on this site are just the best, thanks to all. toot.

No worries,
On the Flinters I have used, I did not have to poke the pan charge, however a friend used to poke his.
777FFF was the best.

[toot]

hylander, it went off like a load of real BP. it is amazing that a substitute will work in place of BP. I wonder why that 7-777 doesn't' let the shooting public know that? again thanks guys for the help. toot.

[hylander]

hylander, it went off like a load of real BP. it is amazing that a substitute will work in place of BP. I wonder why that 7-777 doesn't' let the shooting public know that? again thanks guys for the help. toot.

Good to hear it is working for you.
Again 777 is my go to Sub.

[toot]

I just got several LBS. of black powder from the CT, gun shop that megasupermagnum, turned me onto. thanks bud! and I got a PARKER BROS, 12 GAUGE SXS DBL OFF OF HIM!

[maillemaker]

Everybody knows that Black Powder (and BP substitutes) can be purchased ONLINE and delivered to your door right? If you "can't get it in your area" then you are simply not trying to get it and are just whining about it. If you are reading this then you are online. So go to Grafs.com or several other places online and order your powder. Then the UPS or FEDEX truck will show up with Black Powder for you and bingo - there will be black powder in your area.

Well, sure. The problem is that buying mail order is not a cost-effective option unless you're able to buy in bulk. If you just need a pound of powder, you're going to pay $20 for the powder and another $20 in hazmat. Maybe shipping on top of that. Powder Inc sells 5 pounds minimum and it works out to $33 a pound ($166 total).

I think most people that want to buy local want to run down to their local store and spend $25. You buy online you're going to be dropping a hundred bucks or more.

[freakonaleash]

Well, sure. The problem is that buying mail order is not a cost-effective option unless you're able to buy in bulk. If you just need a pound of powder, you're going to pay $20 for the powder and another $20 in hazmat. Maybe shipping on top of that. Powder Inc sells 5 pounds minimum and it works out to $33 a pound ($166 total).

I think most people that want to buy local want to run down to their local store and spend $25. You buy online you're going to be dropping a hundred bucks or more.

When I have BP mail ordered I order between 10-25lbs to make it cost effective. The days of running down to the store and buying a single pound of powder was over about 25 years ago.

[rodwha]

When I have BP mail ordered I order between 10-25lbs to make it cost effective. The days of running down to the store and buying a single pound of powder was over about 25 years ago.

That’s odd, used to stop in Bass Pro to pick up just one pound of powder all the time…

I buy from Grafs because I found buying 3 lbs broke me about even but allowed me to add Olde Eynsford and Swiss as options and I don’t have to worry about showing up and them not having it again, which is what pushed me online back during the shortages

[sharps4590]

Been following the thread. Best thing is you found a source for real black. There's a gun shop not that far from me that carries black if I need a pound of something particular. Generally I bought in case lots and only had to buy every 2-3 years. I don't shoot it like I used to and currently I probably have enough to last the rest of my life.

As to subs, T-7 would be my choice. I tried a pound each of pyrojunk P and RS when it first came out. It will never darken my door again.

[toot]

sharps4590, roger that. PYRODEX is BAD JU, JU! in any form ! and any grade!!

[salvadore]

I'm with idahoron, been using pyrodex since74,75? and it worked a lot better than the Holy black batman, less fouling and corrosion. When the holy black wowsers start waxing poetic I just roll my eyes. Anyway to each their own.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well after the pyrodex on a sunny hot day I will not buy it or use it , but to each their own , I also roll my eyes over the subs rule crowd , hey remember the inventor got cooked in the fire and they thought they lost the recipe , remember when it first came out it was touted as the safe alternative .

[salvadore]

Thank God no one has ever died in a bp accident he says rolling his eyes. That's a good natured joke fnf.

[toot]

at least he can roll them. he is entitled to his opinion. jmho.

[sharps4590]

I don't recall that anyone ever proclaimed the manufacture of BP as an incident free proposition. Old records frequently mention the "looseness" of how the buildings were constructed precisely NOT to contain an accidental blast. The death of Dan Pawlak all those decades ago was sad, as was the death of the two guys who formulated the original GOEX Cartridge. The death of Mr. Pawlak did not change my experience with or opinion of pyrojunk. It was a good start ut needs to be further developed as far as I'm concerned. That others have good results with it and like it is beyond dispute. I won't argue that but, it remains in the junk column at my house.

[toot]

sharps4590. ROGER THAT! if any one is happy with PYRODEX, so be it. just not me.

[salvadore]

BTW, I saw 45/90 buying pyrojunk at the local walmart.

[sharps4590]

If you're referring to me, you're lying, in more ways than one.

[archeryrob]

I use 777 in the inline that I setup for my daughter.

I use American Pioneer Powder as a sub for 3f in the revolvers as I don't have to worry about rust if I don't clean it right away or as good as it is sulfur-less. The can label says it is cleaner, but damn if I can see the difference. Still have to oil or clean the cylinder pin or it will bid up. I thought with cleaner powder and paper cartridges and I'm set. Three loads dry and bound up Cylinder pin needing oil and a wooden dowel to bang it out. ;) Supposedly a smokeless powder that smokes. Since it is not black powder I use it in the Lee perfect powder measure to drop Paper cartridges.

Pyrodex is awful stuff and said to be more corrosive than BP it self. I started using it in the inline before 777 and damn was that thing hard to clean. I got 1/2 pound and won't use it.

Buckhorn 209 is really nice, easy to clean, but expensive