Lyman 358430 Heavy Bullet 38's

[lmcollins]

Some place somewhere I remember an article on bullets of this weight and profile as beiing highly recommend for defensive ammunition. I think it was in an old Handloader, but am not sure.

The crux of the article was that the bullet of this profile and weight was unstable, and tended to tumble after some penatration, yet was so heavy that it kept on going on its merry way. Back in the 60's I had a book called "Chic Gaylord's Handgunner's Guide," authored by a chap named Chick Gaylord. Midway still list it, and has it on closeout. I've looked for my old hardback copy, and can't find it.

Gaylord's entire book was about defensive handgunning. He was a great advocate of the 200 grain 38 Special round, and called it "The Manstopper." He maintained that it was the only effective 38 Special load worth a hout. I think that this was in days befoore effective hollowpoint bullets in commercial loadings, and he felt that the standard roundnose 158 grain 38 loads were very ineffective. As we all know hollowpoints still give variable action depending on what they have to go through for clothing.

Anyhow, if anyone has the book take a look at it and let me know if my recollections are valid. I'd still like to see the old Handloader article if anyone has and index for the Handloader, or a better memory than my foggy old one.

I've been thinking that I should get a Lyman 358430 mould and do some playing with it. If anyone knows of someone selling any bullets cast from this mould let me know. I might need to buy some just to play with them. Cheaper than another mould and nose punch.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Why not The old sarge was fond of saying " Hit em hard.. hit em often "
My 5 shot 38 carries 162 WC on top of 5 grains Unique. Soft mix that expands readily.
God Bless you !

[Bret4207]

That's the old 38 Super Police loading. Used to be quite popular, the mould is still available. I intend to try some one day. I don't know about the tumbling, it was said to penetrate above all else.

[johniv]

Yup, you are right about Gayloards book, he recommends the 38 spl with 200 gr boolits. I dont know what Handloader issue had the info on that boolit, but there is an article in the 1972 Gun Digest that covers this load.
John

[dubber123]

If you end up buying a used mould, be aware that the 358430 came in 2 weights, 150, and 200 gr. I bought the first one home, and discovered it plainly says "150 gr." right on it. (Duh). I did get the 200 gr. version later.

[GLL]

I have both the 150 & 200 gr versions of the 358430.

I can supply you a few of the 200 gr bullets for you to try out if you are interested.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/ADB358B06AE1F89/standard.jpg

[Bret4207]

That's a whomper out of any 35 rifle too!

[rhbrink]

Have been shooting a Ranchdog 359-195 in a 357 with 6 grains Unique. Shoots very well at 25 yards but haven't been able to do much more with it until weather improves.

[Lucky Joe]

This is my thumper, this spring I plan to cast the nose soft, hollow point it and see what kind of results I get with it. To this date I haven't cast with it.

That 200 gr. looks interesting too.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/7N07-8-2013-39.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

I've run the heavier Lyman #358430 for a long time in 357 Magnum and 38 Special loads, and even Beagled some up to .361" for the 38 S&W.

The boolit is ACCURATE. Very much so, from 700 FPS in the Special to 1200 FPS+ in the Magnum. I've whacked untold numbers of jackrabbits with the boolit in 38 and 357 loads, both intensities DO IN jacks right now--and the 357s rip 'em up considerable. Same story on a couple coyotes--DRT, and a LOT of damage got done going out.

ETA--These might get a "BruceB Softpoint" bit with 70 grain donor softpoints. Seems like a good deer boolit to me, run about 1300 FPS from the BisHawk.

[Bret4207]

This is my thumper, this spring I plan to cast the nose soft, hollow point it and see what kind of results I get with it. To this date I haven't cast with it.

That 200 gr. looks interesting too.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/7N07-8-2013-39.jpg

I have the same mould. Never shot any from a revolter, but out of a 35 Whelen they fly true and seem to hit with authority.

Sigh.:( Another design Lyman should be making.......:(

[lmcollins]

Check for a PM.
lmcollins

[lathesmith]

This looks like a great place to put in a shameless plug for our 358430 GB six cavity Lee mold! I ordered a few extras of this, IF Lee can still get GB's done in 9 months this one should be arriving about April or May. So, if anyone is interested in a 6 banger send me a note
!
I have always had a specal place for this slug in my "quiet loads" category, and normal pressure 38 Sp loads are usually quite accurate also. It is good to see this slug also has many other uses as well, and seems to be highly regarded. The only thing needed to make this slug perfect for me was a high-volume mold to cast a bunch in a hurry. I look forward to these molds arriving!
lathesmith

[beagle]

The 358430 195 grainer is a winner for heavy loads. Another "heavy thumper" if you can find one is a Lyman 35875.

Not much at long range but has really awesome punching power at ranges up to 50 yards. Also has a trajectory like a rainbow at .38 Special velocities.

I've had two of these moulds and loaded them in both the .38 Special and .357 Mag. That big bullet is awesome and will penetrate both doors of a 51 Studebaker out of a .38 Special as I've tried it./beagle

[leadeye]

This looks like a great place to put in a shameless plug for our 358430 GB six cavity Lee mold! I ordered a few extras of this, IF Lee can still get GB's done in 9 months this one should be arriving about April or May. So, if anyone is interested in a 6 banger send me a note
!
I have always had a specal place for this slug in my "quiet loads" category, and normal pressure 38 Sp loads are usually quite accurate also. It is good to see this slug also has many other uses as well, and seems to be highly regarded. The only thing needed to make this slug perfect for me was a high-volume mold to cast a bunch in a hurry. I look forward to these molds arriving!
lathesmith

I got some boolits from a friend on the board that were .357 180 grain gas checks. These came from a group buy of some sort, are these the ones you are talking about?

[lathesmith]

leadeye, no, I ran this GB last August, it is basically a copy of the Lyman 358430 with the top lube groove modified so that it is a crimp groove. This is the only change we made to the design, to give it more flexibility. Here is the thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=33999&highlight=358430

Check out post # 3, this is a pic of the final design. Should be a great one! And there still are a few available....

lathesmith

[GLL]

Here is a comparison of the 358430 200gr. to the 150 gr. plus the 45 2.1 design of lathesmith's Group Buy.

I really like the looks of the Group Buy bullet and suggest you join in ! :)

Jerry
http://www.fototime.com/17E47F2BF83493A/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/88D778394354D02/standard.jpg

[Bandit46]

The Lyman 358430 200 grn. bullet loaded with 2400 in .38 cases does an honest 830 fps
from my Dan Wesson 4 inch Model 715. I have loaded it to 900 fps in .38 cases and it packs a wallop. I've used the 830 fps load in IDPA for the Enhanced revolver or ESP division as it makes the
165000 power factor. The lighter load is very accurate in my gun, right out to 35 yards. It is also a Thumper in a J frame. 730 fps in a 1 7/8ths barrel. One thing though, it shoots High with the standard sights. I made a taller front sight for the DW Mdl 715 and it shoots right on.
The J frame will be no problem as they are usually close in shots if used for self defense. It is a good load for the .38 and in when loaded properly in a .357 case, really churns up the power.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Back in '68 during the riots in NYC we {cops} were burning up a lot of ammo.
Molotov Cocktails off a rooftop tended to piss us off.

I had a handfull of the super police 200 gr loads and kept the last two chambers filled with those and the first 4 with department approved 158 GR SWC's.

We had a looting problem one day and a looter fired off a shot from his handgun. Later on we found it to be a RG .22 LR Revolver made of the cheapest crap you have ever seen. I would not shoot one on a bet. Anyway since the round impacted on a brick about a foot from my head I decided to take out this guy. I got off 5 shots.

I missed with the first 3 and the fourth hit him dead center through the sternum and though his heart.

But he kept on shooting. I dropped my aim and let go No.5 which hit him just above his Johnson, hit the pubic bone and then travelled across this body to smash his pelic bone.

DRT! He dropped like a Gorilla fell on him from an airplane. He lived on for about a half hour and expired in the hospital as that .38 was not a great stopper in the thoractic area but really works when you can break the pelvis.



I don't care who you are or what you are on...IF YOU CAN TAKE OUT THE PELVIC GIRDLE ANYWHERE NOBODY CAN STAND UP WITH A BROKEN PELVIS.

After that fracas I had somebody make up some handloads using approved brass and boolits but loaded hot until they just started to have sticky problems with ejection.

Of course I could never use them on the dept range as they were loud and recoiled a mite compared to dept fodder but I knew that they would pack more punch than the anemic round the NYDPD approved.

I retired in '84 and then they went to a hollowpointed round and began to experiment with other calibers. Now they use 9's, 40's and 45 ACP's along with the old anemic .38's. But at least the .38's are stoked with a good hollowpoint not the old SWC's or 158 gr roundnose which was standard until the early 60's.

[Bandit46]

Crash: You are right about that Pelvic bone. A 200 grain round nose at 750-850 fps will smash the hell out of bone, period. Then, the secondary projectile (bone parts) does a wicked job on the remains. As a retired LEO, in NJ we are not allowed to carry Hollow point ammo. The Federal EFMJ bullets are superb. Too bad they don't make a .38 special load. I usually carry a J frame and I have it loaded with Semi-Wadcutter remingtons that chronoed at 770fps from the 1 7/8" barrel. The 200 grn. Round nose loads chronoed at 730 fps. Either is Deadly at the distances this type of weapon is used. A plus P rated J frame is a great CCW. There is a fellow shooter on another forum that has loaded his J frame with the 200 grn lyman, to 825 fps. with A2400. This is a wicked load for a heavy 4 inch, let alone the J frame, but it will really get the job done if you can shoot it accurately enough. I'm happy with my ammo. If I ever decide to carry a compact auto, it will havethe Federal Efmj loads in it. Thank the lord, I've never had to shoot at another person, or be shot at.

[FN in MT]

Unless my memory is failing I've never seen anything positive written about round nose pistol bullets being good stoppers. No matter what the weight.

And despite my love of heavy Keith style boolits I always have and continue to carry Factory ammo in any off duty or now...my CCW gun. The point is surely debateable but why carry a handload and open a whole can of worms should You USE your CCW with OTHER than a Factory load and get sued.

An Attny can bring in his paid "Expert" to say you had conconcted a deadly load one not APPROVED by ANY LE Agency, etc specifically to cause his client pain and suffering, etc.

Right now the Winchester SXT Ranger ammo (the old Black Talons) are simply amazing bullets that can do it all quite well.

FN in MT

[MikeP]

I've see several articles through the years about the effectiveness of the 200-grain lead bullet in the .38. They were sometimes called "man-stoppers."

Ironically, when the long .38 bullet is slowed down in a short-barrel pistol it may be more effective as a defensive close-in weapon than at a faster speed. This was demonstrated in the relatively puny .38-200 British round at about 600 fps muzzle speed. It was found that when the big, slow bullet hit something, it was going too slow to stabilize for very long and it soon tumbled. That 200-grain piece of tumbling lead was quite effective. I've shot a 200-grain .38 into dry newspaper at a bit less than 600 fps muzzle speed. The bullet went in straight for about the first four inches or so, then it keyholed for the rest of the trip, just as advertised.

The threat of an attorney blaming you for using a very simple piece of low-velocity lead as a bullet compared to a sophisticated factory-designed hollowpoint speedster seems a bit outlandish.

The argument about a bullet not being approved by a law-enforcement agency seems to me to be applicable only to a law-enforcement officer. A civilian has no connection to such approvals and cannot be charged with breaking any departmental rules or regulations. I can see that it would be different for an officer who is subject to such specifications.

[FN in MT]

"The point is surely debateable" .... I'm simply bringing up a point that I have seen on several other firearms/LEO boards.

An Attny's goal is to MUDDY the waters. I don't think I'd want to give one the opportunity.

FN in MT

[anachronism]

Chic Gaylord's recommendations are based on ancient history. There are much better defensive loads than the old 38 "Super Police", which was discontinued decades ago because nobody wanted it.

[9.3X62AL]

I carry the WW SXT in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP carry pistols--REAL GOOD STUFF, and I've seen the results through investigations of LEO shootings.

I'm not one to recommend the carrying of handloads for self-defense, but again by virtue of investigative experience I've never seen the issue of "handload vs. factory round" come up in any context during the criminal investigation phase of the matter. As for the civil side of things, I've not seen a citizen-involved shooting case go to trial. Early in the process, the homeowner's insurance carrier comes up with $5K-$15K to make the perp/his entourage go away--the lawyer gets a yacht payment or two out of it, and the clients all buy 22" spinners for their roach coaches. Game over, and all are happy with Justice American Style. Kabuki theater, really.

Tell ya what--those Lyman #358430s tear the daylights out of any critter I've shot with them. I'm reminded here of Bret's statement regarding "all arrow, and no Indian" concerning terminal performance of handgun bullets. There's a lot more going on than just the bullet, and there are no magic bullets.

[Bret4207]

Oh jeeze, the "handloads" in a gunfight" thing again. I'll just keep my mouth shut......

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

This looks like a great place to put in a shameless plug for our 358430 GB six cavity Lee mold! I ordered a few extras of this, IF Lee can still get GB's done in 9 months this one should be arriving about April or May. So, if anyone is interested in a 6 banger send me a note
!
I have always had a specal place for this slug in my "quiet loads" category, and normal pressure 38 Sp loads are usually quite accurate also. It is good to see this slug also has many other uses as well, and seems to be highly regarded. The only thing needed to make this slug perfect for me was a high-volume mold to cast a bunch in a hurry. I look forward to these molds arriving!
lathesmith

I just joined the forum, while looking for molds to cast bullets for my 5 .38 S&W's (4 S&W and 1 Colt PP)

I saw this posting and was wondering if the 6 gang mold ever came in and if it is still available, or can it be ordered from Lee, I don't know if on custom jobs they will sell molds after the initial run.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Ben! I can't help with your question, but someone will likely chime in shortly with info.

[Beerd]

Hi Ben & welcome
This thread is kind of an old one. The 358430 group buy was completed some time last year. If you are interested in a 200 gr SWC for your 38's I think there is a buy going on now for one by NOE in the Active Group Buy forum area.
..

[GLL]

Benn:

Welcome !

I ran the 358430GC Group Buy version of the 358430 and have two extra 6-cavity LEE available (new). Drop me a PM if you are interested.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/E226C762BD2C6A5/standard.jpg

[Landric]

As mentioned above, here is the link the the recently run 200 grain SWC group buy with moulds still available for sale. Its available as a plain base, and for the .38 S&W, I doubt you will need a gas check.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=100258

[GLL]

I would agree the gas check is not needed for the .38Special revolver !
The bullet was designed for my .357MAX carbine.
Just an offer !

Jerry

[Landric]

Jerry,

What are those Lee GB moulds going for? I happen to have a .357 Max carbine and Contender barrel.

[GLL]

Landric:

They were $68.00 + $9.00 Priority Mail shipping for LEE 6-cavity . I now have only one left if you are interested.

Jerry

[Landric]

Jerry,

I am interested, let me see if Santa is good to me tomorrow. I'm in on a lot of group buys right now, and I have to pay for those too!

[GLL]

Landric:

If you want one I will send it now and Santa can send a check when he finally arrives sometime next year ! :)
The mould is just sitting here doing nothing productive !

Jerry

[Landric]

GLL, PM sent.

[GLL]

Landric:

Santa will be on his way Monday ! :)

Jerry

[Landric]

For anyone who may be interested in the NOE 360200 SWC group buy mentioned above, here are a couple of boolits cast from my RG4 mould. They have gotten a little dinged up since I cast them, but the mould works very nicely.

Here are a couple of the PB solid boolit:


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/Landric/IMG_2106.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/Landric/IMG_2112.jpg

And one of the GC-HP version:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c85/Landric/IMG_2116.jpg

[Ohio Rusty]

Crash Corrigan wrote:
...IF YOU CAN TAKE OUT THE PELVIC GIRDLE ANYWHERE NOBODY CAN STAND UP WITH A BROKEN PELVIS.

Kinda off topic but:
I actually practice shooting my Keltec .380 into the pelvic area of targets. A shot there exploding the hip socket or busting the pelvis will slow down a perp even if they are on drugs or alcohol. I can put 5 rounds with my Ruger .38 snub in quick succession in that area.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[bhn22]

Landric- I just bought one of those moulds for this seasons bowling pin wars. I figured on casting some soft HPs for general usage, then switching the pins & pouring a bunch of solids to teach bowling pins some manners.

[Love Life]

I am guilty of raising a thread from the dead. I have been busy pursuing 200 gr boolits in the 38 special in the hopes of creating a load that tumbles consistently once it encounters liquid.

I came across this absolute jewel of a thread: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/98025-38-s-w-200g-bullets-penetration-tests-2.html

Now back to my research...

[9.3X62AL]

Hey, Love Life--quite a thread on DC. One of its contributors--Louisiana Man--lives here too, and he and I have gone on at length concerning the 38 S&W and the 200 grain bullets I use in the British service revolvers of the 38/200 variety. Those bullets are principally the NEI @169A, but as I wrote 5 years ago in THIS thread (!) I have a long history with the Lyman #358430 in the 38 Special and 357 Magnum, plus a little bit in 38 S&W.

Overall impression--even at sedate velocities like 600-650 FPS, when 200 grains of soft lead connect THINGS HAPPEN. The iron plates at my local range REALLY jump about, and there seems to be an inertia effect going on that isn't present with the 150-160 grain 38s at 800-850 FPS. Those lighter slugs need to run 1000 FPS before the steel starts cavorting around like it does with the 200 grainers in the 700 FPS ballpark.

Specific to the Lyman #358430 and the 38 Special--absolutely no doubt that at 700 FPS these bullets are tumbling through jackrabbits and coyotes--doesn't matter if the twist rate is 1:16" (Colt), 1:18-3/4" (S&W) or Ruger (1:20"), the bullets emerge ragged and sideways, more ragged than a simple stellate-aspect of RN of FMJ outward penetration. Run those same bullets at 1100-1300 FPS, and the damage is wider through the wound track and at emergence point. I can't say if they are tumbling or not, but they track straight--so perhaps not. The slower bullets don't always track straight, but veer off-trajectory once entered in the critter. This may be another indicator of tumbling behavior.

[Love Life]

Thank you for the info Al. I need to get me one of the 358430 moulds. I also want a mould that mimics the profile of the 38/200 bullet and even the 178 gr FMJ boolit profile.

I believe the 358430 will be a great penetrator, but will have straight line penetration. It is too well balanced basically being a cylinder of lead with a round nose. Now the 38/200 boolit has great potential due to it's light/narrow nose profile and heavy butt. That boolit has the classic makings for a tumbler!!

[Outpost75]

I prefer the NOE 359-190 flatnose for this type of load.

A flat nose has more dependable game killing effect, providing reliable crush with straight-through penetration, rather than trying to rely on a round nose tumbling and having a less predictable path in trying to hit an offside shoulder, etc.

103045

[LouisianaMan]

Love Life,
You have intoned the magic words that bring dead threads roaring back to life: ".38" and "200 grain." Used in the same sentence, these words will also bring me, 9.3x62AL, bmcgilvray, and probably ricinyakima and Dale53 a-runnin' like the proverbial dog whistle :-) I know there are others I'm leaving out by mistake, too.

I think all of those guys have more practical experience just with various .38 caliber 200g loads than I have, period. Of course, that's no deterrent to me running off at the mouth about it! Especially because I'm a pretty tough hombre when it comes down to using such loads in the cold-blooded killing of milk jugs full of water. They had me surrounded, but I shot my way out, 6 jugs at a shot. If they'd packed their lines tighter, I would've gotten more. . .

All bad comedy aside, I've bought, used, and shot the bullets from an RCBS .35-200 LFP rifle mold, the 358430 GB, the Webley 200g GB, the Mark I/Super Police GB, and the 200g SWC GB. Mostly I've used them in .38 S&W's of various sorts at 550-675 fps, and in .38 Special at vels from about 600-825. Others have pointed out some of the characteristics that my field-expedient experiments tend to verify. The slow roundnose 200's will start tumbling in jug #2, typically, and veer wildly. They may go thru another 4 jugs in a row, or they can come spinning out of jugs 3 or 4 and then "kill" #5 and #6 in the next row over. Once I get up to 750 fps, the few I tested would smash through 6 in a row.

The 200g SWC, the .35-200 LFP, and the 358430 ("smushed" into a meplat very similar to a round-edged wadcutter), all hit hard, stay straight, and strike deep. Even at 600-650, they'll get thru 6 jugs from a 4" gun every time; they're good for 5-6 jugs from snubs at a true 550-600.

Total penetration is 30-36" of water, plus 12 plastic jug sides. If I loaded the flatpoints to 800+, I think they'd penetrate 8-9 jugs (48-54"). Every 200g load I've spotted in the old ammo company ads ranges between 600-730, with the higher numbers coming from 6" guns.

My choice in .38 S&W has been to go for 650-700 with flatpoints, and 600-630 with roundnoses. The former blast straight through, the latter tumble through. I generally put the FP's in longer-barrelled guns, the RN's in snubs, which optimizes controllability and power. JHP's loaded a bit hotter routinely stop in jug #3.

Shooting hard surfaces at acute angles and/or long ranges, I'd expect the RN's to glance off like LEO's experienced back "in the day." But if you shoot a soft, unarmored target, these loads are no slouch at any angle. Cast hard at 800+ in a sharp-shouldered bullet at a more perpendicular angle, they'd probably pass thru one car door and out the other side.

[LouisianaMan]

I have no proof, but here's my best guess: hit a 160 lb. BG frontally, passing between the ribs and thru the lungs, you might get a shoot-through with unspectacular effects. Hit ribs & the bullet will smash through. Hit a BG from 3 or 9 o'clock through the shoulder, I'd expect the LRN to tumble and stop in the off-side shoulder or even pass through. At 700 fps and higher, I'd expect the flatpoints to blast straight through.

I might be overly conservative, though. Colonel Askins shot a German soldier with his "creakingly slow" .38 SPL 200g Lubaloy roundnose at 20-25 yards. The bullet passed through the German's leather harness, into one side, and out the pectoral muscle (IIRC) on the far side. As Askins succinctly put it, the bullet knocked the German "heels over jockstrap."

[9.3X62AL]

Oh, Outpost--THAT is a bullet design I might need to obtain. One tool to cast 'em about .360", the other about .365" or so. A couple of my 38/200 revos are wide-bodied critters.

[Love Life]

Good info and I thank you for it!!! I'm currently in the "Must have a Webley" phase so this thread popped up during my research on the google mobile. Plus I have been meaning to play with the 358430, but I got sidetracked a couple years back when the 358429 came into my life.

[MT Gianni]

I have sized mine with a flat faced punch, bumping the nose nearly flat. It groups as well as the original in my guns.

[LouisianaMan]

OK, here are a few pics of the 200g heavyweights, plus other .38 S&W ammo.

1. .38 SPL Super Police 200g and .38 S&W 200g LRN ("Specially adapted for Police use")
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg5.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg5.jpg.html)


2. (L-R): 358430 GB; vintage .38 S&W 200g cartridge; hardcast NOE .360-200-Mk.1/Super Police GB
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/3e3b7b73-6dc3-4665-8fe1-3d901f942363.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/3e3b7b73-6dc3-4665-8fe1-3d901f942363.jpg.html)

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg3-1.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg3-1.jpg.html)

(L-R):
1. 125g LSWC, Buffalo Bore
2. 146g LRN, Peters
3. 146g LRN, Lyman Ideal tong tool
4. 148g LWC, Lee .358-148-WC (loaded long)
5. 150g LFP, Remington-UMC .38 Colt New Police
6. 150g LFP, WRA .38 Colt New Police
7. 150g LRN, Lee .358-150-RN-1R
8. 150g LSWC, Lyman 358271
9. 158g LRNFP, Lee .358-158-RNFP
10. 158g LSWC, Lee .358-158-SWC-TL (bumped to .32" meplat)
11. 178g FMJ, CIS (Singapore) Mk. 2Z service ball
12. 200g LSWC, NOE .360-200-SWC GB
13. 200g LRN, NOE .360-200-LRN (Webley/long ogive)
14. 195g LRN, Lee 358430 clone GB, pure lead (loaded long)
15. 200g LRN, NOE .360-200-LRN GB (Mk. 1/Super Police clone), pure lead
16. 200g LRN, Winchester
17. 200g LRN .38 SPL, Western Super Police (Lubaloy)
18. 195g LRN .38 SPL, Lee 358430 clone GB

.38 S&W handloads not pictured: 110g Winchester JHP; 110g Hornady XTP-JHP; 115g Hunters Supply PHP; 125g Lee .358-125-RNFP; 135g Speer GDHP-SB; 140g Lee .358-140-SWC; 150g Lyman 360271

.38 S&W factory ammo not pictured: Winchester 145g LRN; Remington 146g LRN; Magtech 146g LRN

I have not yet tried the Fiocchi 145g FMJ or the Ten-X Cowboy Action load.

[LouisianaMan]

Better focused lineup you can enlarge. I initially misplaced the Lyman 146g tong tool in the NOE 200g position, unintentionally omitting the latter-- see 4th from right. The ogive on both is very similar.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg6.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg6.jpg.html)

[9.3X62AL]

NICE demo photos, for certain.

[Love Life]

Thank you, Louisiana Man, for the photos.

This thread is great and will be a great aid to me.

[scattershot]

I prefer the NOE 359-190 flatnose for this type of load.

A flat nose has more dependable game killing effect, providing reliable crush with straight-through penetration, rather than trying to rely on a round nose tumbling and having a less predictable path in trying to hit an offside shoulder, etc.

103045

I like the looks of that boolit. Are they available commercially? I think that in addition to the .38, they would be spectacular fodder in a .35 Whelen.

[Outpost75]

103131

Mold is in the NOE catalog. Don't know of anybody selling just the bullets commercially.

Hunter's Supply has a 190 flatnose of different profile, same as NEI #161A, Midway has them and they are OK, but HARD!
103132

[Love Life]

Looking through pet loads, there are a couple loads for the 358429 that are claimed safe for the Webley top break revolvers. Only 2.0 gr of bullseye. That's 3500 rds per pound!!

[LouisianaMan]

Outpost, what loads & guns do you use with that 190, and what are your observations on them?

Clearly you think highly of the bullet & I completely understand the flatpoint rationale. I get the flatpoint effects from the 200g SWC; however, the Colts that I used to have, plus my Indian Ruger, are tight-chambered and won't accept most sharp-shouldered bullet profiles.

[Outpost75]

I use these in my Ruger Service Six and Ruger Convertible NM Blackhawk. Cylinder throats are .358 across the board in the .38, 9mm and .357. I size the bullets .358 for all.

In "9mm Cowboy" (.38 S&W case trimmed to 0.750" for 9mm Blackhawk) I load 2.5 grs. of Bullseye for 700 fps.
Too much for your Colts, but 2 grains of Bullseye, 2.5 of W231 or 3 of Unique should be OK.

In 9mm Luger +P brass, seated out long to 1.285" for use the Ruger revolver only (intentionally too long to fit into an autopistol magazine) 7 grains of #2400, lightly compressed, Federal 200 primer. Puts lead in your pencil!

In .38 Special +P brass for the Rugers and Marlin 1894 4.5 grains of Bullseye and 9 grs. of #2400 both shoot well.

No leading with 1:25 tin/lead. From exit holes on large varmints they are expanding. Have not whacked a deer with one yet, but should work. Never recovered one, they give through and through penetration and in water jugs clean a whole 4 ft. stack!

[GLL]

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg6.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg6.jpg.html)

Very nicely done ! :)

Jerry

[Love Life]

Very nicely done ! :)

Jerry

No S&W porn?

[LouisianaMan]

No S&W porn?

OK, OK, tonight I'll get some pics up "with their clothes off." The cast keeps changing on me! :-)

[johniv]

Since this thread has been brought back to life , I would like to mention that Remington also made a 200 gr 38. I have a box here somewhere and they do not have the basketball nose like the Winchester. They look just like the old 158 gr service load. I got them at a gun show and shot a few( they shoot high ) and pulled one to weigh. Do any of you have any background on these?
John

[Jupiter7]

Are any of these 200gr RN molds in current production? I looked at NOE's website but don't see the 360-200 anywhere. WFN designs are abundant, I could live with a small meplat. Do I smell a new group buy?

[LouisianaMan]

Since this thread has been brought back to life , I would like to mention that Remington also made a 200 gr 38. I have a box here somewhere and they do not have the basketball nose like the Winchester. They look just like the old 158 gr service load. I got them at a gun show and shot a few( they shoot high ) and pulled one to weigh. Do any of you have any background on these?
John

Bmcgilvray should be along soon to refresh our memories on that. He had several boxes of Remington component bullets, and has some tales to tell about those pointy-nosed devils.

John, do you have the capability to see how they do vs. water jugs, and/or what they register over the chronograph? I don't think we've ever had direct access to that info on your Remington loads.

I find it especially interesting because of an on-line report by a Dallas police ballistician who was involved in testing ammo for that PD back when they were seeking a replacement for the 158 LRN. In the narrative, he emphasized that he tested two different 200g loads, one of which was well-known for its tendency to tumble. In his tests, that load--whatever it was--tumbled through the target medium and shed a lot of energy in the process, far more than the load that did not tumble. Unfortunately, he didn't say which was which!

My own impressions are that the blunt nose tumbles if it's <650 fps, but not when it's up well over 700.

[LouisianaMan]

Are any of these 200gr RN molds in current production? I looked at NOE's website but don't see the 360-200 anywhere. WFN designs are abundant, I could live with a small meplat. Do I smell a new group buy?

Jupiter,
Swede shows the .363 Mk1/Super Police in-stock at http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=38&osCsid=o6s8tqrlbamathvg3us0cc1852

[johniv]

It will take me awhile to get the chrono out, and I will have to save some jugs for testing, but I will give it a try.
John

[MT Gianni]

103131

Mold is in the NOE catalog. Don't know of anybody selling just the bullets commercially.

Hunter's Supply has a 190 flatnose of different profile, same as NEI #161A, Midway has them and they are OK, but HARD!
103132

It looks like NOE's version of the Ranch Dog 169-190 with conventional grooves.

[Jupiter7]

Jupiter,
Swede shows the .363 Mk1/Super Police in-stock at http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=38&osCsid=o6s8tqrlbamathvg3us0cc1852

That'd be where I didn't look! Thanks

[GLL]

Jupiter,
Swede shows the .363 Mk1/Super Police in-stock at http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=38&osCsid=o6s8tqrlbamathvg3us0cc1852

It is a great bullet for .38Special and .357MAX ! :)

http://www.fototime.com/5D4BAC03881A1B0/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/DB60540F5DFFA4C/orig.jpg

Jerry

[psychicrhino]

I am a 38 fan and have several to prove it. I really like the Lee 150 gr RN I cast and think that 200gr RN HP is dead sexy.

[Jupiter7]

It is a great bullet for .38Special and .357MAX ! :)

http://www.fototime.com/5D4BAC03881A1B0/orig.jpg

Jerry

That pic is a sales pitch by itself.

[Love Life]

I just won an Israeli contract Webley Mark IV. Let the fun begin!!

[LouisianaMan]

Love Life,
Congratulations, you got a two-fer: a piece of history, and a seviceable sidearm. Feed it 170-200g bullets and it'll be happy as a clam. Do you have a copy of "Shooting to Live" to go with it?

[Love Life]

I do not. I reckon I should get a copy? From all the research I have done this is an Israeli contract gun manufactured from 1968-1970. It is a B suffix and is proofed to 4 tons. Should be super fun. Now an order into Matt's bullets is in order.

[Outpost75]

Please post pics when able.

[Love Life]

I might be in luck. In my die cabinet I have a set of steel RCBS 38 S&W dies with a sizing die with no decapping pin/rod, a 38/357 expander die, and a 38 S&W seating die. Looking through my collection of manuals there are loads listed using unique for bullets from 110 gr-200 gr. This thing is going to sip powder. I'm hoping to extrapolate a bit and come up with a load using the 358429. Its roughly the same weight as the FMJ service cartridge.

I might be able to get this thing rolling with minimal layout of dough!

[LouisianaMan]

I claim no expertise. Never been a LEO, never served in combat, never been involved in a shooting.

That being said, the book "Shooting to Live" provides the distilled wisdom from Fairbairn and Sykes, each of whom participated in more than 100 pistol fights, if I recall aright. I stand ready for anyone to correct their record, or my understanding of their record. But assuming that their record stands, then I believe that they each had more experience taking it, and dishing it out, than anyone else who has written up a different system.

Even though their experiences were in Shanghai in the 1920's and 1930's, plus the ETO in WWII, they were fully aware of the basic tools available to the average concealed carry/home defender today: the revolver and the automatic pistol. And they were the primary trainers responsible for much/most of the handgun-fighting techniques taught to British conventional and special ops forces, plus various allied forces and resistance movements. And they also taught Lieutenant (later Colonel) Rex Applegate, who became the primary trainer of our OSS, the elements that formed the basis of his close-combat and pistol techniques.

All taken together, it seems to me that these guys were in a unique position to say what worked and what doesn't. And although they taught advanced techniques, the focus of "Shooting to Live" was to teach the BASICS of close-range handgun fighting, which seems particularly appropriate to most of us on this forum.

And although their preference was the 1911, they well knew that the majority of British servicemen would have the Enfield or Webley revolver as their issue handgun. Thus their book amounts to the Handgunner's Bible for the very gun you've just acquired. I recommend it highly, and definitely welcome suggestions from anyone who can point me towards anything better.

[LouisianaMan]

LL, I think the 358429 should be an excellent choice.

[Love Life]

These are the photos from the auction:

[9.3X62AL]

My example of a Webley-Enfield has throats at .362"-.363". With NEI #169A (202 gr. RN) it shoots right to the sights at 25 yards with 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. Velocity is in the 700 FPS realm. The Webley--like the Lee-Enfield--looks to have been developed as a committee project, but works quite well.

[LouisianaMan]

9.3,
I think I'll "steal" those two recipes and give them a try. I haven't loaded .38 S&W in a while, and was looking to increase vels a bit from what I reach with 2.5g - 2.6g of W231. What you're using with Unique & Herco is right in line with what I want to use as a max "service" load that I can also use relatively often for practice.

[9.3X62AL]

Those loadings are likely too much for a Colt Police Positive or an I/J-frame S&W. I reserve these for the Webley-Enfield and a S&W K-frame M&P Lend-Lease return. I have no experience with the Ruger Service-Six variants chambered in 38/200, but I'm sure these loads are appropriate for those revolvers as well.

[LouisianaMan]

Yes, I plan to try them in my Victory and the Indian Ruger. Will stop short of that for the J frames. I use only factory-equivalent loads in my I frames.

[Gray Fox]

Not to hijack this thread, but do any of you know of any use/research done with the .44 Special and something like the Lee 310 grain boolit? I have a 3" S&W 696 that would be a great platform for such a big and slow load. Thanks, GF

[Love Life]

Can somebody provide me the measurement from the crimp groove to the base of the boolit for the 200 gr 358430?

[LouisianaMan]

Let's see, here are the dimensions I was looking at when comparing 358430 to 169A 200g bullets. Looks to me like .330" is the number you're looking for.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg1-3.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg1-3.jpg.html)

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/imagejpg2-3.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/imagejpg2-3.jpg.html)

[Love Life]

Thank you very much for that information.

[9.3X62AL]

You will note that both bullets are significantly longer than the cases they are seated into. Weirdness becomes the 38/200.

[Love Life]

How are you all loading powder for these cases with the tiny charges?

I have dippers, manual powder measure, auto disk, and a Chargemaster. My mind is telling me that a dipper and bowl of powder is probably the most efficient way.

[Outpost75]

In .32 ACP I use the RCBS Little Dandy measure. The #00 drum throws 1.7 grains of Bullseye, the #0 does 2.2 grains and the #1 is 2.5 grains. They throw the same amounts in Universal Clays, and 1.4, 1.8 and 2.2 grs., respectively, of International Clays, or 2.0, 2.6 and 3.2 grs. of TiteGroup, acording to the charge table which comes wih the measure.

[9.3X62AL]

I have used an older RCBS Duo-Measure (c. 1978), and now use an RCBS Competition powder measure with its smaller-bored cylinder. I've run pretty lengthy test drop sequences with the powders I use in small quantities in the smaller calibers, and using the newer measure WW-231 at the 3.0 grain level the "total indicated runout" in 25 drops spanned 3/10 of 0.1 grain, as indicated on my jeweler's electronic scale I use for bullet weighing--it weighs to the 1/100 grain. Unique at the 3.0 grain level scaled a TIR of 4/10 of 0.1 grain.

[LouisianaMan]

Compared to 9.3x62AL, I'm still using stone tools! :-)

I do, however, still have all the fingers I was born with. . . .I use an RCBS Uniflow powder measure. The smallest charge I generally can get it to throw is 2.0g, or 1.9g with VV N310. It's generally dead accurate, with almost all deviations occurring on the light (good) side by about .1g. Occasionally it throws a charge a hair heavy, but that's quite rare and manageable. Accurate #5 is practically perfect; W231, N310, Bullseye, Herco, and PowerPistol are all very good; but Unique is much more variable until I get up towards 4-5 grains, at which point it settles down to +/- .1g. Red Dot is a great powder, but it doesn't get along with my measure, so I don't use it.

[9.3X62AL]

LA Man, your Uniflow differs little from either of my measures. Same basic chassis, the Duo-Measure just comes with a second cylinder; the Comp'er is like the Duo but has better-delineated index marks. My motive for the test series was to weigh the need (bad pun) for a Little Dandy like that used by Outpost 75. The pre-set rotor cavity size has the potential to be more accurate and repeatable with the smaller charges. After the series, I felt that the present measure would be sufficient to the task for my current crop of cartridges.

[Love Life]

After much reading, I will be using a set of 9mm Makarov dies to reload my 38S&W.

[9.3X62AL]

After much reading, I will be using a set of 9mm Makarov dies to reload my 38S&W.

Da, tovarich......I see you were reading over my shoulder, nyet?

[Love Life]

Gotta love the plethora of info available on this forum. Perhaps cornucopia is the correct term?

[Love Life]

The Webley Mark IV is here and it is awesome. I did a complete disassembly, clean, and reassembly and didn't have any spare parts left so I headed to the range. The bore is pristine in this gun.

All I had was a box of 50 PPU loaded with 148 gr LRN. They leaded a it at the forcing cone, but I'm not surprised.

I was impressed with the accuracy of this little bugger, and the trigger is pretty cool. A heavy pull and then a very clean break. It wasn't hard to shoot 3 inches and under at 15 yds and at 25 yds most groups could be covered with a hand. Pretty cool!

I have some 200 gr boolits from Matt's bullets sized to .362 along with Starline Brass, Lee 9mm Mak dies, and a RCBS crimp die. I did a dummy rd and 1.240 fits in the cylinder with the 200 gr boolit seated to the crimp groove.

Enough chatter here. I'll do a full write up with pictures once I get some hand loads through it.

[LouisianaMan]

LL,
Congrats on the Webley, it sounds nice & I'm glad to hear you like it. Once you start shooting your 200's, I think it will sound and feel much more authoritative! I look forward to seeing what you come up with. What powder are you planning to use?

[Love Life]

I have Herco, Bullseye, and Unique to play with.

[LouisianaMan]

Today's companions "out on the town" for Mothers' Day:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/2480435c-f11f-446a-8dd7-e8880709859b.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/2480435c-f11f-446a-8dd7-e8880709859b.jpg.html)

[9.3X62AL]

A nice brace of 38 Terriers you have there!

[LouisianaMan]

They're fun to "stack" and fire simultaneously when up close to a target. Double trouble :-)

[Love Life]

Check this guy out.

[9.3X62AL]

LL, that looks like a commercial variant from the barrel length and the grip conformation. Is the action single-action-capable? My service W-E is DAO, and the hammer is spurless. NICE EXAMPLE.

[Love Life]

It is single action capable. it has the Star of David on the right side. Serial number with a B prefix puts it at 1968-1970.

[LouisianaMan]

Going from memory here, but I believe all Webleys retained the hammer spur and SA/DA function. The Enfield (government arsenal) went from an initial version with hammer, SA/DA, to a subsequent standard of DAO and spurless hammer.

Perhaps it's true that the Armor branch pushed for the spurless hammer, so as not to get hung up within the tight confines of armored vehicles. That's what all the books say, anyway. I'm no expert on web gear, but the pattern 37 (?) webbing holster completely covers the hammer, so I would think that sufficient.

It has long struck me that the DAO Enfield was designed in close conformity to the pistol handling techniques advocated and taught by Fairbairn and Sykes in prewar Shanghai and wartime Britain. See "Shooting to Live with the One-Hand Gun." A natural-pointing weapon usable only in DA for close-combat point shooting, light & handy, packing only as much punch as the average conscript could handle. F & S, if asked to design a general service revolver for British troops, might very well have laid out a concept that looked much like the eventual Enfield. The sources I've encountered, however, make no mention of F&S having anything to do with the Enfield design, which was credited to Capt. William Boys (also of anti-tank rifle fame), who bootlegged Webley's commercial design.

I wonder if Boys drew guidance, inspiration or ideas from F&S during the 1920's and -30's?

[9.3X62AL]

You could be correct, Dana--I haven't read Fairbairn & Sykes, nor am I conversant on the adoption of the Webley-Enfield by the Empire's using services. I read from an unrecalled source that the 38/200 bullet was deemed "roughly equivalent" to the striking power of the WWI-vintage 45 caliber revolver which ran a 265 grain .455" at a 650-675 FPS clip. My preference personally would be to avoid either bullet's effect, but I'm funny that way. As stated above, those 200 grain 38 slugs at 700 FPS put a THWOCK on steel or animated targets not present when the #358477s connect from the Police Positive at the same speed. SOMETHING is occurring with that heftier bullet. I wouldn't recommend it for the deer woods as a first choice, but it beats hell outta throwing rocks.

[Love Life]

You mean you don't want to stand down range and catch the boolits with your hand?

[9.3X62AL]

Or with a fielder's glove. I'm all about recycling bullet metal, but not to THAT degree.

[Love Life]

Don't be a stick in the mud. Everybody knows you can catch boolits from the 38 S&W, 32 S&W long, and possibly the .455 Eley.


*********DISCLAIMER********
I AM SERIOUSLY JUST FUNNIN' ABOUT THE WHOLE CATCHING BOOLITS THING. IF YOU ACTUALLY DO TRY TO CATCH BOOLITS, THE YOU WILL END UP WITH A HOLE IN YOUR HAND AT A MINIMUM AND POSSIBLY DIE AT THE EXTREME. DO NOT TRY TO CATCH BOOLITS WITH YOUR HAND!!
*********DISCLAIMER********

[9.3X62AL]

I hope your disclaimer didn't spoil too many peoples' morning plans, LL. Ya never know.......

[Love Life]

I had to add the disclaimer. With today's education system I can see somebody reading the previous post and having their buddy go try and catch boolits.

[LouisianaMan]

Yeah, as a budding genius in 9th grade P.E. I tried to use my foot to stop a bowling ball. Seemed easy enough to kinda catch it from the top with enough pressure to stop it, because it was moving SO SLOOOOWWWW. Suffice to say that "slow" described my cognitive processes more than it did the momentum of the bowling ball, or the alacrity with which I hopped away like the proverbial one-legged man in an a$$-kicking contest. Was *very* tough to pull off the "I really meant to do that" act.

You won't be surprised to learn that I was not a physics major in college. I wisely (?) stuck to History and German, and was mollified somewhat to later read of a Civil War soldier who had tried to stop a slow-rolling cannonball with his foot. You probably can guess how that worked out for him.

[robertbank]

Revolvers were issued to Officers and the Military Police in the Canadian Army during WW1 and 11. I suspect this would be true with the other Dominion armies and the Brits.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Major_david_currie_vc.jpg/220px-Major_david_currie_vc.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Major_david_currie_vc.jpg)

The above shows David Currie winning a VC. He is holding a 38 Webley or an Inglis, having just negotiated the surrender of a column of German troops. He had at the time approx. 17 infantry left at his disposal and my uncles platoon of Sherman tanks. The German colonel surrendered his column of troops not knowing exactly what he was up against. Uncle Newrt, then a Captain, said after the battle they lined us all up, the first guy, Currie, got a VC. By the time they got to me all they had was a Bronze Star. I have read his citation and he may have down played what went on at Falaise in the summer of 1944. The photo is likely the only photo of a serviceman actually winning a VC.

The photo Sargent in the foreground appears to have either an Inglis or Webley on his hip/

Take Care

Bob