Got a question as it relates to lube grooves

[Mike8623]

OK folks just starting out here and trying to figure out lube grooves in lead bullets. Is there a formula or generalization for how many for a specific bullet ie bullet length or diameter?

Same question for lube groove width and depth.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Rcmaveric]

Depends on when the bullet was designed. The idea behind magic lube groove formula has evolved across the centuries. Elmer Keith said the need to be big. Louvern had them all them all the way down a bullet. These days most bulets 1, 2 or 3 depending on the length of the bullet. My 30 cal bullets have 3 but i fill the first two and use the third lube groove as a crimp groove. I have 6.5m rifle bullets with one lube groove.

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[Mike8623]

Thanks for responding Maveric
So I would suppose then that if go by the thought of 60% of the diam of a bullet to be driving bands the rest would be lube grooves?

How deep would you make the grooves?

I'm talking .510 diam. Bullet, 600 grains

[gwpercle]

I went over to the NOE site , they have some .512" dia. designs with :
594 grs. weight w/ 2 lube grooves , a 650 gr. weight has 1 big groove and a 887 gr. weight has 3 lube grooves .
They have dimensioned drawings on the site that might give you the width and depth of the grooves .
Being an old draftsman ... the dimensioned drawings look cool ... I've printed a few out and hang them on the wall .
The 594 grain - .512" dia. design is the closest I can find to your requirements .
That's a Big Boolit ! www.noebulletmoulds.com
Gary

[Mike8623]

Thanks Percle,

Anyone with any ideas to depth on the lube rings or any other ideas to the above

Also is anyone aware of an online bullet design program

[reddog81]

NOE has the "blueprints" for the molds when you click on a mold to buy it. The sample I looked at went from a diameter of .513 to .467 for a depth of .046.

[jim147]

Knowing more about what you are shooting would help.

[Mike8623]

Winchester 1886 50-110

[7br]

We are coming up on Waksupi's annual fall lube groove sale. You might check to see if he will sell you a sample pack.

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[jim147]

Winchester 1886 50-110


That helps. Out of my loading area but you will get better answers now. Are you doing black powder or smokeless?

I'm guessing black so a bigger lube groove would be my choice.

[Mike8623]

No, doing smokeless

[FLINTNFIRE]

I am more curious about the weight of your bullet , seems heavy for the 1886 .

[Mike8623]

Thanks all for responding.

Does anyone know of a bullet design program?

[mdi]

One of the members here sells lube grooves, IIRC; Waksupi. You could purchase various sizes and find a size that works best... [smilie=l:

[Mike8623]

Again, I am thankful to all that replied

[Rcmaveric]

Honestly, your out of my league. Lol i shoot the bullets and not design them.

Pretty sure most bullet designs are drafted in an a cad program. Not sure what is exported for the CNC machine to make them (gerber?).

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[Wayne Smith]

Thanks all for responding.

Does anyone know of a bullet design program?

Not since Dan pulled down Mountain Molds website and retired from mold making.

[dverna]

Wouldn't hurt to call NOE and discuss your needs.

[rockrat]

Or Tom at Accurate Moulds

[FLINTNFIRE]

I liked mountain molds online design program , played with it just never got around to making a order to my regret .

I go to Accurate and look through catalog and see what is close to what I want and what others have bought for same caliber / rifle model and go from there .

[gwpercle]

Al "Swede" Nelson at NOE ( Night Owl Enterprises) has designed a mould or two .
Mike ... if you click on the NOE link I posted in post #4 , it will take you to the NOE site .
Across the top is : Home ...Recently Added ... Shop ... Bullet Dimensions ... click on Bullet dimensions , then scroll down the diameters and click on .510 , that will bring up all the .510 to .517 bullet numbers . Click on .513 - 594 - SP - B15 ... there are two fully dimensioned drawings , one GC and one PB . and you can print them out . These drawings and others might give you a heads up on what works and don't works ... I know Al spends a lot of time on these designs and may know of a design / CAD program .
Gary

[oldblinddog]

Winchester 1886 50-110

This is the correct bullet for your rifle/cartridge http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=51-440D

287232

The crimp groove is in the correct place for your cartridge so that it will cycle through the action. There is more than enough lube volume in the three grooves.

[DonHowe]

I have no idea whether or not a lube formula exists ut have come to believe that rifle bullets used with smokeless powder hold far more lube than necessary for use in good barrels. On the other hand,, bullets intended for use with black powder an hardly carry too much lube.
When I ventured into schuetzen most of 20 years ago the bullet I used (and those used by most shooters) was very similar to those used in the black/semi-smokeless powder Era. These were/are per rules and tradition plain base bullets and were no doubt the inspiration for all the lube grooves on Lovetin style bullets. Then I got a mold designed by the late Barry Darr which cast a Spitzer bullets with 3 very small lube grooves. On occasion I fired that bullet with smokeless powder, with accuracy and without leading with only two grooves lubed. If that experience did not fully convince me of the "too much lube theory" the success of the NOE 310-165-FN has done so.

While I have great respect for Elmer Keith' experience and opinions, his views regarding lube grooves on revolver bullets may have been different had he used stronger alloy than 16-1 lead/tin in his heavy revolver loads.

[oldblinddog]

I need to add: lube your bullet with Carnauba Red. You won’t be sorry.

https://www.lsstuff.com/

[MT Gianni]

Lube groove requirements have changed as lubes have evolved. It is super easy to over lube your bullets and bore, resulting in a loss of accuracy. If you know your lube the shallower, multi-grooves give you more versatility than the older single deep groove molds. I don't see it a lot at 25 yard handgun but it will show up at the 50 yard line and in rifles.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

OK folks just starting out here and trying to figure out lube grooves in lead bullets. Is there a formula or generalization for how many for a specific bullet ie bullet length or diameter?

Same question for lube groove width and depth.

Any help would be appreciated.

You are asking a question that has no simple answer, there is no "generalization". The crux of the matter is more complex that can be disseminated in a typical internet discussion.

Most of us rely on proven existing designs and proven existing lubes.

If you look at NOE's boolit drawings, you'll see specification of Grease groove volume in CC's.
That tells you how much lube capacity of the Lube grooves is. If you are designing a mold and plan to use it for typical applications and a typical Lube, you could just "copy" a proven existing design's lube groove size. If you have a "out-of-the-norm" shooting application or lube formula, you can adjust it accordingly.

Also, a round lube groove makes for easily releasing the boolit from the mold, but if you have a lube that isn't as sticky as others, that lube may not stay in grooves during handling. By contrast, a Square lube groove acts the opposite.

I prefer a single lube groove, as it's easier and less messy to apply the lube. But as Rcmaveric mentions the multi-lube groove, like the loverin design, offers you the ability to adjust the amount of lube you apply for your specific application or Lube formula.

Good luck

[gwpercle]

I have no idea whether or not a lube formula exists ut have come to believe that rifle bullets used with smokeless powder hold far more lube than necessary for use in good barrels. On the other hand,, bullets intended for use with black powder an hardly carry too much lube.
When I ventured into schuetzen most of 20 years ago the bullet I used (and those used by most shooters) was very similar to those used in the black/semi-smokeless powder Era. These were/are per rules and tradition plain base bullets and were no doubt the inspiration for all the lube grooves on Lovetin style bullets. Then I got a mold designed by the late Barry Darr which cast a Spitzer bullets with 3 very small lube grooves. On occasion I fired that bullet with smokeless powder, with accuracy and without leading with only two grooves lubed. If that experience did not fully convince me of the "too much lube theory" the success of the NOE 310-165-FN has done so.

While I have great respect for Elmer Keith' experience and opinions, his views regarding lube grooves on revolver bullets may have been different had he used stronger alloy than 16-1 lead/tin in his heavy revolver loads.

And have you seen the lubes they had to use ... " Pure beef tallow or a mixture of beeswax and tallow ..." that's pretty low tech lube ... I think they needed a lot because it wasn't that good .
This is the 1930's and Elmer lives out in the "sticks" ... no NRA 50/50 lube was available .
Gary

[DonHowe]

And have you seen the lubes they had to use ... " Pure beef tallow or a mixture of beeswax and tallow ..." that's pretty low tech lube ... I think they needed a lot because it wasn't that good .
This is the 1930's and Elmer lives out in the "sticks" ... no NRA 50/50 lube was available .
Gary

That they needed a lot of lube in the black powder era was not so much because the lube was not that good as because what is reqiired of a lube used with black powder is quite different from a lube used with smokeless powder. This is as true of black powder lube in 2021 as it was 1885. BP lube certainly must "lube" but of equal (or greater) importance is that it keep powder fouling soft in the barrel for sustained accuracy. This requires a fair amount of lube. A lube containing beeswax and tallow can be as effective with BP or low velocity (below 1500fps) smokeless today as in 1900. On the other hand, pure tallow is no better for strings of shots from cartridges than it was back in the day.
My "modified Emmerts lube" costing of approximately 50% beeswax, 40%tallow, 7%peanut oil and 3% lanolin works well with BP as well as the bullet I described with 3 tiny grooves at 1425fps.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned many, if not most, of the older lube groove designs on cast bullets was because of the lubes being used "back in the day". With modern lubes (developed in the '50s) such as Javelina, Tamarak NRA 50/50 Lubes, neither are available any longer, and others such large lube grooves with such large amount of lube were no longer needed. Todays lubes such as White Labels 50/50, Carnauba Red, 2500+ and 2700+ work as well if not better and they also do not require the larger lube grooves.

I was heavily involved in the design of the NOE 310-165-FN 30 XCB bullet. I had several conversations with Swede nelson regarding the size of the lube grooves [depth and width]. The idea was to give the bullet just enough and no more lube for high velocity out of 26"+ barrels. Additionally the minimal depth of the lube groove would increase the diameter of the bullet column at the base of the groove. That would increase the strength of the bullet to resist collapse when shot at high velocity/pressure. We decided on 3 lube grooves plus a small scraper space above the GC based on the desired 65- 70% bearing length of the bullet. We decided the grooves should be, given a .300 bore with a .308 groove diameter barrel, twice the groove depth or .016". The width should be twice that depth or .032". The grooves should be evenly spaced along the total full diameter bearing surface. Tim Malcom of MBT had already come up with the taper from the full diameter of the front drive band to match the leade of the 30 XCB chamber. The secant ogive nose length should be 2.5 diameters of where leade started. If you look at the tech drawing on the NOE site you see Swede matched out concepts exactly. The end result is an excellent and very accurate 30 caliber bullet.

That design concept is fully applicable to other custom made bullet moulds. It uses only the amount of lube necessary and having fired probably 10,000 of them out of my 30x60, my Palma .308s and my M70 Target .308 at 2400 - 3000+ fps with absolutely no leading and excellent accuracy I'd have to say the concept worked perfectly.

[popper]

It's actually more complex, don't know how long that heavy is but stuff like center of gravity and center of pressure come into play. Changing lube groves in a design can upset the 'design'. Although your fps will be barely super. You do need a relatively long rear drive band to take the pressure/prevent gas cutting. Grooves also provide a place for the alloy to go when your barrel 'sizes' the bullet - you don't want it all to move the the rear of the base. I've pushed 185gr 'grooveless' in 30 cal with just 2 thin tumble lubed coats of 50/50 johnson liquid wax and LLA to 2k fps. Accuracy and no leading. 'Old' style lubes use larger grooves as the lube hydraulically (compression) feeds lube and adds strength to the bullet. Peanut (butter) oil (Mazzola cooking oil)is actually rapeseed oil and is a fantastic bullet lube. I've used it straight.
I'd try a T/L design with a strong base band.

[ddixie884]

And have you seen the lubes they had to use ... " Pure beef tallow or a mixture of beeswax and tallow ..." that's pretty low tech lube ... I think they needed a lot because it wasn't that good .
This is the 1930's and Elmer lives out in the "sticks" ... no NRA 50/50 lube was available .
Gary

Yes, simple lubes required larger grooves for more volume.

[Bloodman14]

I had asked this question some time ago, and someone had actually posted the math formula for determining lube groove volume. Confused me to no end, as algebra is not my strong suite. I just use a modified Ben's Red recipe, keep my loads at approximately 1800fps, and call it good.

[carelesslove]

carelesslove, here! I have accumulated a lot of molds, for pistol / revolvers, over ~48 years of bullet casting. Some worked great, some are a constant fight.

A year, or two ago, I called Veral Smith, at LBT and after a long and deeply philosophical discussion, I ordered one of his molds - .432-260-WFN-PB, for some older S&W .44's, that had larger cylinder throats. I left final design up to Veral, and the mold came back with one, small, and relatively shallow, lube groove.

At first, I was somewhat disappointed, but this mold throws perfect bullets, all weighing the same, all looking great - and they drop from the mold on opening. You don't have to touch the hinge.

Per Veral's instructions, I size the bullets for a "push thru" fit in the throats and use his LBT Soft blue Lube. I use a lead alloy that runs about 6.5 on my SAECO hardness tester. This is just a little harder than clip-on wheelwrights and I have not been able to make this bullet lead any of my older guns. The lube - even with the single, tiny lube groove - leaves the cylinder and bore with a slick, pasty film - and again, no leading. Veral recommended to NOT clean it.

The moral of this story is: You might not need multiple, wide, or deep lube grooves - you just need one that works!

Thanks, Tom "carelesslove" Love