What are some of the oldest/most iconic Lyman Ideal molds?

[Stopsign32v]

While getting into casting I would like to retrace some of the footstep of famous people and even you guys with bullets that are early examples. So far I have and really really love my Ideal 358429 Keith mold but it has me wondering what are some of the iconic earlier molds that I might not know to look for?

Could you guys list what caliber and purpose they are meant for?

[farmbif]

257420 and 358156 both have been around quite a while

[Stopsign32v]

Could you guys list what they are? I know what the 358156 is but no idea of the 257420

[farmbif]

maybe pressman will chime in here
he is one person that when I read what he has to say about historic equipment I feel I can trust it 100%
if you look in the section titled molds maintenance and designs there is a link to historic ideal and Lyman bullet molds

[405grain]

The Lyman 311284. This was invented for the 30-40 Krag and is still around today. Even though it is a cast boolit, it can match the performance of the 220 grain jacketed bullet in that cartridge. If I'm not mistaken, it was also one of the first cast bullets that used a gas check.

[30calflash]

I believe some of the 45 cal rifle bullets were among the earliest and may be had today, if not til fairly recently.

[Mk42gunner]

The Lyman 311284. This was invented for the 30-40 Krag and is still around today. Even though it is a cast boolit, it can match the performance of the 220 grain jacketed bullet in that cartridge. If I'm not mistaken, it was also one of the first cast bullets that used a gas check.
That is one I was thinking of, one of the first gas check designs. It was originally the 308284 (I've got one).

The 454190 was a ~250 grain meant for the 45 Colt. The 427098 was the .44 WCF boolit, some early ones were stamped 424098 I believe.

Robert

[ascast]

457424 and 457425 and 427330 these are 45-70 bullits, very old and proven. There are several 38-55 designs that are very old, as are some 32-40. I'm sure there are a couple for every caliber out there. If Lymnan still offers them, or did until recently, they're proven designs.

[oldhenry]

358446 was the 358156 w/o the GC.
#358477 is a 150 gr. SWC similar to the 358429 except lighter (shorter nose).
358439 is the HP version of 358429.
#452432 is supposed to be a 238gr. SWC (mine weigh more): it is similar to a short nose 452424 designed for .45 ACP loads in revolvers (very accurate in ACP & .45 Colt).
454424 was the original version of the current 452424 to suit bore of early .45 Colts.

[nvbirdman]

The number after the size number tells you when the mould was designed. Thus 358311 would be older than 358429, and both would be older than 357446.

[samari46]

311291 gas checked, 31141 gas checked, 3111284 gas checked, 311316 gas checked, 3118 no gas check,457125 plain base, 457124 plain base.
1st three are 30 caliber
2nd two are for 32 caliber like 32-20
3rd are for the 45/70.
That's all I can think of at the present. Frank

[DonHowe]

308291

[bedbugbilly]

This link should give you some good info

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Ideal-Lyman_Mold_Descriptions.html#490_up_mold

[MT Gianni]

3118 is an old +Ideal mold now called 311008. Many of the 357446 mold I have seen have undersized drive bands and only shoot well pushed hard. 429421 and 454424 or 452424 are the Elmer Keith designs comparable to the 358429. Get on line and look for Lyman manuals before #42 or so. They can show a lot of what was popular 70 years ago and why.

[Bent Ramrod]

Get a copy of the Lyman Handbook Of Cast Bullets #1. It has thumbnail descriptions of the various designs by Barlow, Anderson, Kephart, Hudson, Keith et al as copied from the earlier Ideal Handbooks, plus the later developments by Thompson, Loverin, et al.

Ohland (who seems to have stopped posting stuff) copied a lot of the descriptions from the earlier Lyman Handbook #28 into posts but the pictures seem to have disappeared.

[Thumbcocker]

Any of the John Barlow designs.

[Green Frog]

If you find a four or five digit serial number on an Ideal mould (such as the aforementioned 3118, designed for the 32-20) or the modernized Lyman number (like 311008) of the same design, that’s an old one. Initially the cherries were numbered as designed, so four or five digit designs were very early and low six digit (XXX1XX) came next. Somewhere about the time Lyman took over that went out the window.
Somewhere on my laptop I have a numerical listing, but I’m on my oldest iPad right now, so I’ll have to add that citation later - unless somebody beats me to it! :coffeecom

Froggie

[gwpercle]

While getting into casting I would like to retrace some of the footstep of famous people and even you guys with bullets that are early examples. So far I have and really really love my Ideal 358429 Keith mold but it has me wondering what are some of the iconic earlier molds that I might not know to look for?

Could you guys list what caliber and purpose they are meant for?

Take a long hard look at Lyman # 358432 in the 160 gr. form . A rather clever Wadcutter design that has proven very accurate in all of my 38 special and 357 magnum handguns .
Not many know about it , I picked up a used single cavity , when I realized how it liked to make tiny groups ... I was interested ...when I saw NOE was making the design and had 3 and 4 cavity moulds in stock ... I ordered a three cavity before I realized what I had done ... 3 cavities beat 1 all to hell and back . The 160 gr. version is my all time favorite 38 special boolit .

For the 357 Magnum ... Skeeter Skelton wrote about the Lyman #358156 SWC , it has a gas check but at 357 Magnum velocities ... that's not a bad thing . It also has two crimp grooves for doing things we did back then when 357 magnum brass was hard to find .

Lyman has stopped making a lot of moulds ... they hardly have much of a selection . I am glad NOE has re-created a lot of their discontinued designs ... some , like the #358432 are too good to let die .

You mentioned 38 cal . and over the last 50 years I've lost count of how many 38 / 357 moulds I've bought and tried . Two other classics are # 358429 (170 gr.) Keith SWC and #358431 (160 gr.) Keith SWC . I hate to say it but I found the 160 gr, K-SWC to be just a little more accurate than the 170 gr. K-SWC ... But that may just be me ... you may prefer the 170 gr. K-SWC .
NOE has re-created some of Elmer Keiths designs ... I even grabbed a Elmer Keith Signature Series Mould in 41 Magnum ... a 237 gr. Keith SWC ... it's sweet !

[brstevns]

314299 and 311299 designed for the 303 British but work great in the 30-06, 3040 krag, 308 win etc

[John Boy]

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Ideal-Lyman_Mold_Descriptions.html

Ideal 4 digit calibers are the oldest non tong molds

[oldhenry]

qwpercle is right about the 358432.

I have a '77 era Lyman 4cav. that I'll never part with (even though it's heavy).

[bedbugbilly]

In .358, there are two molds that come to mind for me – the .358-311 and the .358-242.

The .358-311 has been around since the inception of the 38 Special (38 Smith and Wesson Special) cartridge – fathered by the 38 Colt Long Cartridge. The 38 S & W Special has been around since 1898 and the 358-311 dates to that time period as well. The mold casts a 160 grain plain base round nose bullet. I have several early Ideal molds for that particular bullet as well as a single cavity Winchester mold which casts an identical bullet and which is stamped “38 S & W”. I have found it to be an accurate bullet out of all of my 38/357s and I particularly like shooting the historical bullet/cartridge in my old Smith & Wesson hand ejector revolvers and my 1910 Colt Army Special (Colt Army Special came out in 1908 - same year that my Dad was born and the Model T was introduced - the revolver was renamed for marketing purposes in 1927 to Colt Official Police). I am currently using that bullet to load in 38 special brass to use in my Henry 357 Big Boy Steel lever action as it feeds like butter in the rifle. The same bullet/cartridge loading will be shot from my Uberti 357 Bisley – 4 ¾” as it has proven to be accurate out of that revolver and will be used by me for the dual purpose of working in the revolver and the rifle.

The second mold is the 358-242. This is an old design as well that casts a .358 plain base rond nose bullet but it was available in two different grain weights – 92 grain and 121 grain. It is a very versatile bullet in either grain weight. In a 38/357, both weights shoot well. I also use both grain weights in loading both the 38 Colt Short and 38 Colt Long cartridges. (I also load “heeled bullets” in 38 Colt Short/Long/Special - .375 diameter with .358 heel diameter for use in cap and ball revolvers with conversion cylinders – but those are not cast in Ideal/Lyman molds). Bothe the 92 and 121 grain 358-242 cast bullets can be used in loading .380 ACP and 9mm Luger if desired and they make for accurate loads. I have several sets of blocks for each grain weight – a mixture of Ideal and Lyman.

I have been a BP shooter for nearly 60 years but only got interested in re-loading cartridges perhaps around 20 or so years ago. I like to cast and reload for what I consider “historical cartridges” – cartridges that have been around for many years – 38 Colt Short/Long – both in .358 and in “heeled” loads, 38 Special, 45 Colt/Schofield, 30-30, 8 X 57 Mauser (to shoot out of a 1905 Danzig GEW98), etc. and I am all set up now to load 45-70. Many I load in both BP and smokeless. I don’t pay much attention to “who” came up with the design of the bullet but I do like to read about it and try molds that duplicate what was available at the time the cartridge was born. That is just my preference and others enjoy those designs that were developed by noted shooters such as Kieth, etc. We all like different things.

The other bullet mold I will mention is the .454-190. I have several sets of Ideal blocks for this traditional 45 Colt bullet that has been around since it was adopted by the Army. A nice RNFP – 250 grain bullet that casts well and shoots even better in my 45 Colt revolvers – whether loaded with BP or smokeless. While I use a number of different .452 - .454 molds and designs in the 45 Colt/Schofield cartridges – there is just something fun about shooting the same bullet that goes back to 1873 and which has been used for many generations.

A fourth mold that I almost forgot about is the 450-225. This mold was designed for a 170 grain plain base round nose bullet to be used in the original .44 caliber cap and ball pistols from the Civil War - Colt, Remingtons, etc. I have both an old Ideal mold and a set of Lyman blocks for this bullet that I cast and sometimes use in my Colt 1860 Army and Remington 1858 New Model Army clones. The Ideal mold is a very early one and it still casts excellent bullets. So many of these revolvers ended up in the hands of those who carried them during the war, carried them in the westward movement, etc. that Ideal saw a marketing opportunity for bullet molds and took advantage of it.

[Green Frog]

Somewhere in my Web Surfing I found a table that goes through the series numbers of all the Ideal and Lyman Moulds. It's 12 pages long, but I'll try to post the first page;

Ideal/Lyman cherry numbers & weights...

Harsh obscenity!! When I tried to post it, the file lost its formatting and became a jumbled bunch of numbers. OP, if you would like me to send it to you as an attachment, send me a PM with your e-mail address.

Froggie

[Green Frog]

BINGO! Check out the following URL;

http://www.castpics.net/subsite/HistMolds/IdealCN.pdf

It's the one I had also stored away as a 12 page pdf.

Green Frog

[45-70 Chevroner]

457122. This one has been around sense I can remember. Made in the Ideal line and later the Lyman. My favorite 45-70 boolit, a hollow point that drops from my Ideal mold with my alloy at almost 350gr.

[Green Frog]

Yes, there’s much to be said for some of those classic designs that have stood the test of time. The 3118 has long been a favorite of mine, and now I am tracking down one tha shouldn’t exist, a 3119. I don’t know it’s history but there is a 3089, IIRC that runs right around 100 grains, so the same design a couple of thou larger would be maybe a 103 or 104(?). It may be a misprint, but it should be worth a look.

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

The 3118, the 308284 aalong with it's PB'd version the 308282 and the 308291 are what pops into my mind from memory.

[Green Frog]

I got it out and looked at it again very closely… it was a 3118 with the 8 stamped crooked and a little lightly. It’s a single cavity I found many years ago at the famous Hillsville Gun Show and Flea Market. It was up on the hill across the street from the VFW Hall, and IIRC I paid $10 or $15 for it. Needless to say, I’m keeping it!

Froggie

[Forrest r]

I'd have to say the 35870 & the 356402

Don't know how long the 356402 has been around for but the 35870 is in the 1898 ideal handbook.

The 35870 is a fn bullet that also had a hb version. 50yd 10-shot group from a nm 1911 shooting the hb version of the 35870 bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

[oldhenry]

I have 2 single cavity Ideal molds that got me into casting in 1960 after I lucked into a perfect '73 Win. in 38/40 aka 38WCF.

The 401 43 is a classic RFN weighing 172gr. . It will feed through the magazine with the original 40 Gr. of black powder, but light charges of Unique require a filler as it has no crimp groove (cream of wheat will do).

The 401 88 is a SWC (with crimp groove, but did not feed due to shape).

Both are very accurate.

[Green Frog]

One thing I expect with these earliest designs is a round nose or flat meplat on an otherwise rounded nose.

Froggie

[MT Gianni]

If you are after rifle molds look at the Guy Louverin designs. In general, several even bands with a gc. They can run with as little lube as you need. 311466 has always done well for me.