Guidance for pouring concrete slab

[bayjoe]

My son lives in Killeen, TX and wanted to pour a 8x10 cement slab in his back yard for a small shed.
He contacted the city for a permit and they told him, that the slab had to be 10 feet from the property line. And he had to excavated the area, put rebar in the concrete.
I looked at what i could find and i can only find a building has to be 5 feet from property line.
Is the city code people right?

[WRideout]

Just ask the code enforcement office to provide a reference for the construction standards. Then you will know if you are both looking at the same book.

Wayne

[farmbif]

in the long run if he's having to deal with knit picking building inspectors and codes it might be well worth whatever it costs for him to hire a local architect/engineer that deals with those folks on a regular basis to draw up plans and stamp em with his legal stamp to make the code folks happy

[Geezer in NH]

I would have poured it and ask for forgiveness if caught. Never ask permission for small stuff. But that is me.

Now I would forget about it.

[rancher1913]

for an 8x10 building, I would just call tuff shed and have them drop one off, comes with the floor already and its considered a temporary structure because it has no foundation and thus can be placed right on a property line.

[bayjoe]

He already has a little shed he put together. It has a wood floor. He wanted to do away with wood floor because bees are making nest under shed.

[El Greco]

It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Poor your slab. Play dumb. Case closed.

[popper]

Flat cinder block foundation is easier and no code for it. Vapor/bug barrier under it.

[Winger Ed.]

Most places will gladly send you a copy of their ordinances and requirements.

I wasn't seated, but was called to city court jury duty once for a case involving a guy who had built a backyard shed
not in compliance with the city codes.

I didn't stick around to see how the case came out, but I'd guess he lost and had to move or get rid of it.
Your mileage may vary.

[country gent]

I was 99% done with the new garage / shop when they zoning board decided It couldnt be there, after issuing the building permit 2 months earlier.

[Kraschenbirn]

Verify the setback, thickness, and reinforcing requirements with the city's Building Safety department and get a section/page/paragraph reference, in writing, for the information. Several years ago, the subcontractor doing the electrical on one of my projects got into a rather heated discussion with the city electrical inspector over the installation of a secondary electrical panel and when the electrician pulled out his copy of the city code to back up his position, the inspector said "I don't care what the book says, it's how I interpret it is the only thing that counts." This is NOT a 'war story', I was there and heard the conversation first hand but when I went to the City Administrator about it, his answer was that the inspector had recently updated the code to comply with current NEC so his interpretation had to be correct...case closed.

[ascast]

most places 144 sqft needs no permit, certainly no rebar and poured floor. As for reference numbers to prove it. OR tear up floor in current bldg and pour floor. 80pound bag of ready mix is 0.6 cubic ft, or 2 sqft of 4 inch thick flooring. 4 sqft of 2 inch. rough estimation. So if you go with 4 inch, you need about 40 bags at about $4.25 per. That's $170 for cement. Add a 30 pack for the helpers, rent a mixer or build a mix box and use hoes - ( a wheel barrow will work), make a screeder ( u-tube). Get 'er done. Once started-do not stop till done
OR you could make your own floor tiles about a foot square-build wood 2x4 frames, now you can makes them over time and NO-ONE will notice anything, and you keep the 30 pack
best wishes

[cwtebay]

I believe that you can request his city to come approve the site ( after going before planning board and likely city council for structure approval). Have your son document the visit from the city official, and go from there. Each and every municipality I've lived in has had different 'code' - not worth finding out that an internet forum is mistaken.
The forgiveness rather than permission statement cost my baby brother $11,000 in May for a fence - just FYI.

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[NyFirefighter357]

https://www.killeentexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1867/Fences-Sheds--Accessory-Structures-Brochure


ec. 31-474. - Rear yards. Accessory buildings or structures to residential uses shall be limited to twenty (20) feet in height and in sum shall not occupy more than twenty-five (25) percent of the area when located in a required rear yard, however no accessory building or structure shall be closer than five (5) feet to the main building, nor closer than five (5) feet to any rear lot line or five (5) feet to any interior side lot lines. In-ground swimming pools and above ground swimming pools shall be located only within the side yard or rear yard and shall not be placed in the front yard or the side street yard, exclusive of any publically dedicated utility or drainage easements, and shall be no closer than five (5) feet from any side lot line and ten (10) feet from any rear lot line.
Sec. 31-474. - Rear yards.
Accessory buildings or structures to residential uses shall be limited to twenty (20) feet in height and in sum shall not occupy more than twenty-five (25) percent of the area when located in a required rear yard, however no accessory building or structure shall be closer than five (5) feet to the main building, nor closer than five (5) feet to any rear lot line or five (5) feet to any interior side lot lines. In-ground swimming pools and above ground swimming pools shall be located only within the side yard or rear yard and shall not be placed in the front yard or the side street yard, exclusive of any publically dedicated utility or drainage easements, and shall be no closer than five (5) feet from any side lot line and ten (10) feet from any rear lot line.

[cwtebay]

https://www.killeentexas.gov/DocumentCenter/View/1867/Fences-Sheds--Accessory-Structures-Brochure


ec. 31-474. - Rear yards. Accessory buildings or structures to residential uses shall be limited to twenty (20) feet in height and in sum shall not occupy more than twenty-five (25) percent of the area when located in a required rear yard, however no accessory building or structure shall be closer than five (5) feet to the main building, nor closer than five (5) feet to any rear lot line or five (5) feet to any interior side lot lines. In-ground swimming pools and above ground swimming pools shall be located only within the side yard or rear yard and shall not be placed in the front yard or the side street yard, exclusive of any publically dedicated utility or drainage easements, and shall be no closer than five (5) feet from any side lot line and ten (10) feet from any rear lot line.
Sec. 31-474. - Rear yards.
Accessory buildings or structures to residential uses shall be limited to twenty (20) feet in height and in sum shall not occupy more than twenty-five (25) percent of the area when located in a required rear yard, however no accessory building or structure shall be closer than five (5) feet to the main building, nor closer than five (5) feet to any rear lot line or five (5) feet to any interior side lot lines. In-ground swimming pools and above ground swimming pools shall be located only within the side yard or rear yard and shall not be placed in the front yard or the side street yard, exclusive of any publically dedicated utility or drainage easements, and shall be no closer than five (5) feet from any side lot line and ten (10) feet from any rear lot line.^^^^^what this guy said

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[namsag]

I lived in Texas for years, have no doubt they will not grant forgiveness, they don’t care of you’ve already built something, however small it is, they will order you to tear it down. Saw it several times during my years there. Sometimes I miss living in Texas but I do not miss the bureaucracy there.

[MrWolf]

Might as well do what the city wants. I was putting up a shed in NJ years ago that was One Foot to close to the line and had to be moved. Luckily it was caught early and the inspector wasn't a total jerk. I have seen where a fully completed house had to be torn down. I know because the guy gave me the windows just for taking them out.

[jsizemore]

I'm in Wake county NC. If you haven't had the lot boundaries surveyed then your better off to pull a string and pour your slab 12 feet off the line if they said 10. In Wake they take into account all the structure. If your roof eve hangs past your back wall 1 foot, like on most houses, than the measurement is from the eve. In Raleigh the rain runoff from the roof can't fall in the setback area. I add an extra foot so there's no chance to be wrong and have to pay for a survey.

Our slabs cannot be poured on top of any organic material which includes top soil. We have to dig down to base material and makeup the height with compacted stone or abc to get our slab to the height we want. As long as we build according to state building code we don't have to get an engineer's letter or architect's drawing. Don't know why you need rebar when contractors fiber added to the mix will take all the load you'll put in a shed. One yard of concrete will give you a slab 8'x10'x 4" thick with enough leftover to give you an apron to roll your stuff in the door.

Around here the city and county pay a reward for folks turning in others that are doing construction without a permit. Not just neighbors, but the trash guys, meter readers, cable installers....whoever will rat you out.

Now, Texas may be a whole nother thing.

[rockrat]

I have used the fiber concrete (fibercrete) before for a slab where I park my truck, and have seen some people use cut up wire "hog panels" (usually 4'x16') for re-enforcing the concrete pour, instead of rebar.

[Mal Paso]

There is also 6x6 inch steel mesh, 9 gauge I think, in panels or 6 foot wide rolls. Use blocks or pull it up into the middle of the slab.

[1hole]

Sometimes I miss living in Texas but I do not miss the bureaucracy there.

Building Departments are rarely accountable to anyone. They are commonly staffed by what we might call "low level" people who have rarely had any real authority before; "power corrupts, absolute power absolutely corrupts." No matter how nice they may be otherwise they usually become petty tyrants in their official capacity and written standard variations they may ignore, neither private citizens and most local contractors have no sway over them.

Building anything without their department's prior approval (and sometimes even with prior approval) often gets ordered destroyed if it pleases the inspector - or if he just wants to teach another non-govie pee-on a lesson.

(Texas bureaucrats and their silly building rules are not unique. In Jacksonville, FL, a building permit is required to build a dog house - and it will be inspected when completed. In south FL, home owners are forbidden to replace their own failed light switches.

(It wasn't always that way but many yankees have occupied and they work together to make Southern things all better, meaning to do things the way they did up Nawth. And the Nawth has lots of government controls to protect them ... and they supply lots of taxes to pay for it too.)

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!!

[30calflash]

He already started the process in speaking to the town, don't go ahead and do it and expect forgiveness.

It sounds like some places would like you to do just that so they can hit you for a big$$$ fine when you avoid their regs.

At this point I think it's best to do it the right way and get a copy of the ordnance before proceeding.

[Half Dog]

Here, I can call and have the buried utilities marked at no charge. I would just make sure your slab isn’t over anything buried then enjoy.

[gwpercle]

When dealing with any Building Offical , Plan Review Deputy or Building Inspector ... Hold your tongue and try your best not to use the words ... Idiot , Fool , Forrest Gump , Moron , Dolt , Ignoramus or Clown ... bite your tongue if you have too . No matter what Do Not Get Any of them teed-off or mad at you ... They relish their power and enjoy finding exceptional ways to look at things in obscure and skewed fashions ... so they can deny you a building permit or turn down an inspection ! Their favorite thing to say , and they enjoy saying it , is "Sorry , you can't do that ... it's against Code !"
The one thing you must do is get on the good side of the Ladies who answer the phone ... Secretaries ( Office Manager's) run the world ... I could get more done being nice to the Building Officals Secretary than I could talking to him ... She knew what to say , how to say it and when to say it and get anything I needed approved and signed off on ... Be Nice To the Ladies ! If the lady office workers like you and you are super nice to them ...you're in like Flynn !
Gary

[DougGuy]

Sounds like a wooden floor portable shed is well worth the offset in pure BS the OP will needlessly endure before his shed gets built.

Wake County NC has it's rules, then the town of Wake Forest has it's rules and the two often conflict. I lived in the Historic District of Wake Forest, and we couldn't have a carport, a garage built, and the size of any outbuilding had to be less than 10% of the square footage of the main dwelling. There was one 8x10 shed on blocks on the property already, 2' off the back line and they never said a word about it, 80% of the homes in the area have sheds that are in violation of the rules but they are old sheds and they aren't forcing owners to tear them down.

[chambers]

Work with the local building official. This will go a long way. If you do it without permit, they have the right to to have you remove it. Just follow local code and all will be good.

[William Yanda]

It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Poor your slab. Play dumb. Case closed.

Our locality is looking for someone who ignores building permits to make an example of. Hope your son's municipality is not the same.

[Bmi48219]

Ten years ago we decided to heat our pool. I visited the county building dept for the info I needed to get it permitted. My pool pump slab was 18 inches too short to set the heater on. I asked if I could form and pour an 18” x 36” extension to the slab. He said sure but I’d have to pull an excavation permit (additional $80.00). Plus if the extension was within 1 foot of the house (it would be) I’d have to get a new termite bond for the property (about $750.00). I asked if I could just install a precast slab and he said that would eliminate the excavation and termite bond requirements. I formed and cast the slab 18” away from where it was needed, dug out & leveled the area it was to go in and slid it into place. Once I installed the heater you couldn’t even see where the old slab ended & the new one started. Passed inspection with no problem.
In the OP’s situation, most municipalities require a permit anytime you pour concrete where there previously wasn’t concrete. Many now require a rat wall and some type of reinforcing steel too. The slab makes the shed a permanent founded structure, subject to permitting and often property taxes.
If you covertly pour the slab and don’t get caught, it can still cause problems when you try to sell the property.

[Acorn]

We recently bought a pre-built shed. According to the zoning regs. it has to be no closer tha 10’ from the property line. When the man delivered it it wound up behind about 9’6” away. If the time ever comes that they call me on it, I’ll move it. It’s built on 2 4x6 treated rails sitting on a limestone chip bed.
I could have applied for a variance for a $400 non refundable fee, which I could easily seeing them deny being there was nothing “in it” for them to approve it.

[Handloader109]

Ten years ago we decided to heat our pool. I visited the county building dept for the info I needed to get it permitted. My pool pump slab was 18 inches too short to set the heater on. I asked if I could form and pour an 18” x 36” extension to the slab. He said sure but I’d have to pull an excavation permit (additional $80.00). Plus if the extension was within 1 foot of the house (it would be) I’d have to get a new termite bond for the property (about $750.00). I asked if I could just install a precast slab and he said that would eliminate the excavation and termite bond requirements. I formed and cast the slab 18” away from where it was needed, dug out & leveled the area it was to go in and slid it into place. Once I installed the heater you couldn’t even see where the old slab ended & the new one started. Passed inspection with no problem.
In the OP’s situation, most municipalities require a permit anytime you pour concrete where there previously wasn’t concrete. Many now require a rat wall and some type of reinforcing steel too. The slab makes the shed a permanent founded structure, subject to permitting and often property taxes.
If you covertly pour the slab and don’t get caught, it can still cause problems when you try to sell the property.I'd have never let anyone know that I was doing that. You had a pump, you needed to update it. add heater and get warm in the pool. Inviting an inspector in is very much like bringing the fox into the henhouse. They will find an issue. Just don't.
And to the Original poster, I'd just rebuild a wood foundation. way too many issues getting it approved. And yep, it will then be subject to larger tax bill as it is a permanent structure.

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[Bmi48219]

I'd have never let anyone know that I was doing that.


Not saying people haven’t forgot to pull a permit on occasion, sometimes they’ve lived to regret it later.
The property tax record reflects every permitted improvement and taxes are based on that data. Most municipalities physically examine properties on a 5-10 year schedule to confirm the tax rolls are accurate. If there have been improvements since the last exam that aren’t on the property tax roll, you can hope you weren’t the owner during the last exam. The examiner can’t usually enter structures, so recently finished attics, slabs in sheds etc, that aren’t apparent from outside aren’t often found and held against you. If the tax assessor discovers un-permitted improvements the best case is you have to pay a fine, pull a permit (at double the cost) and provide access to inspectors so they can verify the improvement meets all CURRENT (not when the improvement was done) codes. That can mean removing drywall for framing, electrical and plumbing inspections; digging to expose foundations etc. Or they can also just condemn the improvement and force you to remove it.
To make it worse, you can’t advertise the finished attic / 4th bedroom that wasn’t permitted, when listing the house for sale. The mortgage appraiser can’t include it when valuing the house as it wasn’t legally installed.
Municipalities are looking for ways to increase revenue. Un-permitted construction is a gold mine to them.
I am well versed in construction and tend to think of the permit process as another tax. On the other hand without code enforcement the average homeowner is alway at the mercy of unscrupulous builders.

[jsizemore]

Sounds like a wooden floor portable shed is well worth the offset in pure BS the OP will needlessly endure before his shed gets built.

Wake County NC has it's rules, then the town of Wake Forest has it's rules and the two often conflict. I lived in the Historic District of Wake Forest, and we couldn't have a carport, a garage built, and the size of any outbuilding had to be less than 10% of the square footage of the main dwelling. There was one 8x10 shed on blocks on the property already, 2' off the back line and they never said a word about it, 80% of the homes in the area have sheds that are in violation of the rules but they are old sheds and they aren't forcing owners to tear them down.

Lots of old stuff gets/got grandfathered in. New in Wake Forest, not so much. Did a house closing punch list off Camp Kanada. Since it's in the Falls Lake watershed, you have to provided permeable soil to control runoff. Inspector was digitally photographing stepping stones and comparing it the original plot plan to see if it was in violation.

Sometimes if you have a septic system you can't put in a shed if it impinges on the repair area. There's a concerted effort for residents in this county to get rid of their septic systems and wells and go on Raleigh city and water since they own most of it.

[David2011]

When I had a new workshop built last year it was 100% permitted. I found the city to be pretty reasonable and got my self-drawn plans approved with only one small piece of additional information. This surprised the builder because the city isn't known for being lenient in the building department. I did my research first and worked many hours on the design to make sure every element met all applicable codes. All of my design work was done in SketchUp and I was new to the program at that time. I did need a registered professional engineer to design the slab but that was less than 1% of the total building cost. The inspector invited me to his house to see his shop after my build was completed.

[john.k]

yep,you can be lucky......when the council here decided to hang me out to dry,they sent an inspector who turned out was a tractor collector,and of the very same ones I was collecting.....he did a cursory check,overlooked a lot of stuff with just a comment ,and invited me to join a tractor club......the good part is because the complaint was inspected and okayed once,its now grandfathered for all time.......he also gave me a nod nod wink wink on who was complaining (I have a lot of adjacent properties) and I hit the guy with a fencing demand for an upgraded fence ....his share was some $4000,demand enforcable by law,not just a debt.

[1hole]

.... and I hit the guy with a fencing demand for an upgraded fence ....his share was some $4000,demand enforcable by law,not just a debt.

Ahhh, karma can have such large teeth! :lol: