Would building a derringer barrel chambered for 410 shot shells be legal ?

[Jedman]

I just bought a used Bond Arms derringer and after looking at the simple arrangement for the barrel attachment and locking lug I believe I could easily make a 410 barrel to fit .
I know that other handguns that are chambered to fire 45 Colt and 410 shot shells have a rifled 45 cal. bore and are not made specifically for firing the 410 shot shells.
If I were to build my own barrel and make the bore .410 smooth bore and the chamber correct for 2 1/2” shot shells would this make it illegal as in a short barreled shotgun or are their other considerations ?

Jedman

[Electrod47]

If your wanting to build a smooth bore handgun. As you say that's a "short barrel shotgun". Yes, that's illegal. If it were legal Bond would already sell them.

[Winger Ed.]

I have a Bond in .410/.45Colt. In the last 1/2" or so of the barrels is rifling.
That might be how they make it legal as a handgun instead of a (too short of a barreled) shotgun.

That way, chambering .410 shotgun shells, is just a coincidence they also fit in the .45Colt handgun.

[358429]

Does the law specify that the rifling must be done a certain way, to pass code?

Perhaps the rifling grooves may be done in such a way that legal requirements are met, without spinning the shot in a radial fashion.

Would microgroove or straight rifling meet those requirements?

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[SODAPOPMG]

the first 410 revolver, forgot the name of it, had straight rifling i looked just to figure out how they could make a legal shotgun pistol

[DougGuy]

It totally depends on the EXACT definition of rifling that BATFE is using (at any given moment) whether the rifling must have a twist to it or if it can be straight. No rifling at all is definitely a short barreled shotgun and is illegal at the federal level.

How much rifling has to be present would also be debatable but unless BATFE specifically spells out the length requirement to be acceptable, it would be up to a judge who just may look at rifling in the last 1/4" of the barrel and roll his eyes and say no, that is not enough rifling to satisfy the requirement, or he may say since it is obviously not smooth all the length of the barrel, 1/4" does constitute an acceptable amount of rifling.

[358429]

Are the rules about gun barrel rifling one of those subjective evaluations like obscenity, where you will know it when you see it?

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[Jedman]

This is definitely interesting ! Thinking of straight rifling…… I think I could make a straight rifling button on my lathe and push it through the bores with a arbor press and cut some shallow grooves.
Several years ago I built a single shot “ ZIP GUN “ with several barrels and know that it was legal to make but not sell and I am OK with that. I imagine that if I do make this 410 barrel it couldn’t be sold with the derringer but could be given away ?
The reason I was thinking of making the 410 barrels is I have experimented with tri ball loads in 2 1/2” 410’s shooting 3 - . 400 diameter muzzleloader balls and have had great success. Out of a longer barrel I have killed groundhogs, raccoons and a 300 lb sow hog with a single shot with these loads. Out of a short derringer barrel I wouldn’t expect that level of power but out of a 6” barrel they should be easier to hit something at 10 yards with than the 45 ACP out of the 2 1/2” factory barrel.

Jedman

[country gent]

Jedman, An interesting project for sure.

A derringer with 3" barrels would still be the same length or slightly shorter than a snub revolver.
Not sure how but several are making 12" shotguns for civilian sales. You might look into this some.
For home done rifling you could possibly etch it in in a straight form. This would be very shallow rifling maybe .0005-.001 deep on a side. Or if it does need a twist use something like 1 100 :-?

[358429]

Does the law specify that the rifling needs to contact the projectile? What if your rifle the outside of the barrel[emoji848] [emoji3]

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[Markopolo]

i know whst you mean Jed... them tri-ball 410 shells loaded over 2400 are da Bomb!!! I still have some

[Mr_Sheesh]

358429 - My bet would be that THAT experiment would end badly for you. Better to use deeper rifling in a 1:200" twist

[ulav8r]

Don't know, but suspect, that the regulations do not provide any specifications or definition of rifling. As a minimum, I think that any rifling should be very visible to a cursory inspection.

[John Taylor]

I talked to the ATF about this same thing. The 1934 gun control act was about cutting off shotgun or rifle barrels and just happens to be the same year that H&A stopped making the handy gun. If the gun was originally made without a butt stock it is not a shotgun and can have a short barrel I was asking about the H&R because I ended up with one and thinking it was not legal as a 410 I made a rifle barrel for it. While up dating my license I asked about why there are modern mad handguns in 12 gauge and got the answer about the butt stock. Now about changing the barrel, might be best to check with ATF. Copy of letter,

Mr. Taylor,

This is what I found,

The H&R Handy-Gun is a single-shot, breech-loading handgun produced from 1921 to 1934 by Harrington & Richardson. Two principal variants were produced; one with a rifled barrel and one smooth-bore. The rifled-barrel variant was produced from 1930-1934 and it featured a 12¼" barrel. It was available in.22 WRF, .32-20 and possibly other centerfire cartridges. Some guns were originally factory fitted with a wire stock. Production was halted with the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. Rifled versions with a detachable wire stock are a short-barrel rifle under federal law and require registration. Pistols without the stock are exempt.

The Remington “Shockwave” is considered a pistol by definition. If it was originally manufactured as a rifle, with stock, then it is a NFA short barrel rifle. Even if it was redesigned and a pistol grip was put on it is still considered a NFA due to the original design.

If it was originally designed to be a pistol, then it is exempt from the NFA registration.

The definition of the original manufactured design, determines the classification of the firearm.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Victori

[John Taylor]

An after thought on a 410 derringer. There would be vary little stopping power with a 410 in a very shot barrel, all you would do is make someone mad.

[Mr_Sheesh]

You'd definitely make their ears ring, too, I'd think? And maybe set them on fire a smidge :p

[Jedman]

An after thought on a 410 derringer. There would be vary little stopping power with a 410 in a very shot barrel, all you would do is make someone mad.

What I was thinking is 3 -.400 diameter lead balls weigh about 280 grains. With a 6” barrel with a 2 1/2” shot shell loaded to maybe 15000 psi it would have some respectable power. I know 15 K pressure in a plastic shot shell hull sounds like STUPID but hear me out. Myself and another member here on castboolits built several rifles / slug guns that used 410 hulls with 209 primers first loaded with 44 cal. bullets to use for deer hunting in our home state of OH years ago before they legalized straight walled rifle cartridges. One was a 444 Marlin handi rifle , another was a Marlin 336 rebored by JES to .412 bore and another was a Mossberg 500 410 pump shotgun that I rebarreled with a 44 cal rifled barrel for from a blank. All of these guns were shot with powders from 2400 to 3031 and what we found is the plastic hull wasn’t the weakest link. When the maximum pressure was reached in these guns we found the 209 primers started to separate and we would see gas leakage from the primers.
I know most are thinking we are nuts but there were no accidents or any guns blown up but we found a 410 hull especially the Win AA compression formed hull to be very strong. We didn’t have any means of pressure testing any of our loads but by the velocities we were at some of them had to be 25000 + psi so I am saying when you load something like a shot shell with 3 balls you are on your own as far as safety and there is no reason to push it to extremes but these derringers are chambered in 357 mag, 40 S&W, and 9 mm and the case head is completely supported so whatever a 6” barreled pistol shooting a 280 - 300 grain bullet in a cartridge case with the volume of a 2 1/2” shot shell hull at a safe pressure will do should do more than make someone mad ��
I might be full of BS ? but like stated before a 410 loaded with 3 - 40 cal. lead balls is pretty big medicine.
Anyway it’s just a idea and if it can be done legally I may do it just for fun ��

Jedman

[358429]

1 turn in 200!!! Hahaha mr sheesh that's fantastic!

And I thought one my shooting buddys rifle was slow twist, he hunts and shoots the round ball from 50 caliber black powder rifle. I think he told me 1:60 or 1:70, I don't remember which one.

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[358429]

What I was thinking is 3 -.400 diameter lead balls weigh about 280 grains. With a 6” barrel with a 2 1/2” shot shell loaded to maybe 15000 psi it would have some respectable power. I know 15 K pressure in a plastic shot shell hull sounds like STUPID but hear me out. Myself and another member here on castboolits built several rifles / slug guns that used 410 hulls with 209 primers first loaded with 44 cal. bullets to use for deer hunting in our home state of OH years ago before they legalized straight walled rifle cartridges. One was a 444 Marlin handi rifle , another was a Marlin 336 rebored by JES to .412 bore and another was a Mossberg 500 410 pump shotgun that I rebarreled with a 44 cal rifled barrel for from a blank. All of these guns were shot with powders from 2400 to 3031 and what we found is the plastic hull wasn’t the weakest link. When the maximum pressure was reached in these guns we found the 209 primers started to separate and we would see gas leakage from the primers.
I know most are thinking we are nuts but there were no accidents or any guns blown up but we found a 410 hull especially the Win AA compression formed hull to be very strong. We didn’t have any means of pressure testing any of our loads but by the velocities we were at some of them had to be 25000 + psi so I am saying when you load something like a shot shell with 3 balls you are on your own as far as safety and there is no reason to push it to extreams but these derringers are chambered in 357 mag, 40 S&W, and 9 mm and the case head is completely supported so whatever a 6” barreled pistol shooting a 280 - 300 grain bullet in a cartridge case with the volume of a 2 1/2” shot shell hull at a safe pressure will do should do more than make someone mad ��
I might be full of BS ? but like stated before a 410 loaded with 3 - 40 cal. lead balls is pretty big medicine.
Anyway it’s just a idea and if it can be done legally I may do it just for fun ��

Jedman410 winchester super ultra mega magnum!

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[lar45]

The smooth bore barrel will not be legal.
It's just like the flare gun adapters. If they have rifling, they are legal. If they are smooth bore, they are considered short barreled shotguns.
You will need some rifling. I would suggest about 1/2" of rifling.
I read an article about a revolver Bowen built for Ross Seyfried years ago. It was a Ruger 357 maximum that had a new cylinder and 45 cal barrel put on. He bored out all but the last 3/4" or 1/2" of rifling so they could play with shot loads. The short section of rifling acted as a choke and kept the shot patterns tight enough to hit thrown clays. There was still enough rifling to stabilize a regular bullet as well.
You might check www.GunPartsCorp.com , they used to have short sections of 45 cal barrel blanks. Or maybe check with one of the pistol smiths for a take off 45 Colt barrel from a Ruger or whatever.

If you could make a rifling button and press it through some 4140 or 4130 DOM tube, that would be very cool also.

[lar45]

Hawes 45 Colt barrel
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/81290E
286960

Redhawk Hunter barrel
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1553530
286961

30" Octagon 45 cal barrel blank $61.25
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/584510
no picture.

EMF 7.5" 45 Colt barrel $41.50
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1560290
286962

[Jedman]

286969286968Thanks everyone for the help and clarification of the rifling needed. Now I need to find a piece of bar stock to use I don’t think I will attempt using stainless as drilling the bores would be difficult. This is what the simple barrels look like.

Jedman

[lar45]

https://www.speedymetals.com/searchsuper.aspx?Material=Alloy&Grade=4140&Shape=Flat

I've used Speedy Metals in the past when I needed a small piece of 4140 for building gun parts.
This is an ejector for an over/under shotgun that we couldn't find spare parts for.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/ejector/ejector-02.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/ejector/ejector-03.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/ejector/ejector-04.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/ejector/ejector-05.jpg

[John Taylor]

286969286968Thanks everyone for the help and clarification of the rifling needed. Now I need to find a piece of bar stock to use I don’t think I will attempt using stainless as drilling the bores would be difficult. This is what the simple barrels look like.

Jedman

416 stainless is the type used for rifle barrel and machines easy.

[John Taylor]

The smooth bore barrel will not be legal.
It's just like the flare gun adapters. If they have rifling, they are legal. If they are smooth bore, they are considered short barreled shotguns.
You will need some rifling. I would suggest about 1/2" of rifling.
I read an article about a revolver Bowen built for Ross Seyfried years ago. It was a Ruger 357 maximum that had a new cylinder and 45 cal barrel put on. He bored out all but the last 3/4" or 1/2" of rifling so they could play with shot loads. The short section of rifling acted as a choke and kept the shot patterns tight enough to hit thrown clays. There was still enough rifling to stabilize a regular bullet as well.
You might check www.GunPartsCorp.com , they used to have short sections of 45 cal barrel blanks. Or maybe check with one of the pistol smiths for a take off 45 Colt barrel from a Ruger or whatever.

If you could make a rifling button and press it through some 4140 or 4130 DOM tube, that would be very cool also.

As noted in my earlier post, a pistol that never had a shoulder stock can have a smooth bore. Now making flare gun into a cartridge pistol comes under the manufacture of a firearm. Might want to ask ATF about it and get the truth. From what I have heard you can make a pistol for yourself but you can't make one for someone ells or sell it. Don't know how true it is, there's lots of miss information out there.

[Handloader109]

Legally you have a pistol. You do not have a shotgun with or without rifling. You would have a pistol that fires shotshells.
But I would work to try and cut some grooves in case someone wanted to examine the gun and questioned it. The atf can twist however they want.....
With a couple of three grooves you would be legal. Even if they were a half a thou deep, they would be grooves.

[pietro]

.

Smooth-Bore, Shot-Pistol

Notice: All "Any Other Weapons" have a mandatory tax of $200.00 for making; the transfer of an "Any Other Weapons" is an additional $5.00.

Classification - Any Other Weapon, Distinctive Characteristics

A pistol having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire shot shells.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-8

.

[kerplode]

If you can, have a look at how Altor rifles their barrels...They use a very shallow, almost non-existent, microgrove arrangement (4 grooves @ 0.014″ wide and 0.005″ deep). These tiny groves are not enough to really stabilize a bullet (tons of keyholes), but it's enough to meet the criteria of a rifled barrel and make the firearm a handgun per ATF.

[country gent]

With 3" barrels and 3" shells the rifling wouldn't matter as the case mouth will be almost right at the muzzle when fired :bigsmyl2:

[JHeath]

I think that type of barrel is called a "Paradox Gun", was patented by Fosbery and the patent sold to H&H in the 1880s. Does ATF have a policy on Paradox Guns?

[Traffer]

I have a Bond in .410/.45Colt. In the last 1/2" or so of the barrels is rifling.
That might be how they make it legal as a handgun instead of a (too short of a barreled) shotgun.

That way, chambering .410 shotgun shells, is just a coincidence they also fit in the .45Colt handgun.

Being able to chamber and shoot 45lc is how Taurus and then S&W got by the regulations when they brought out the "Judge" type revolvers.

[JHeath]

H&H still makes them.

https://hollandandholland.com/guns/the-paradox-gun

Tomorrow I will have my valet phone H&H and order a Paradox Gun with 16" barrels. If ATF objects I will throw my valet under the bus. I wanted a new one anyway.

[Jedman]

My idea of making this is just a fun project that will cost me little and give me something to play with. Making a broach to cut some shallow strait grooves in the bores should be one of the easiest parts to do. The more I think of this project the more I change my mind on what I would chamber it in. I have strait walled brass such as 445 SM that I could use and load 2 .429 round balls so it wouldn’t be considered a shotgun and I can make the barrels as long as I want. I know with the small two fingered grip it has the recoil will be hard to control so it may not make a lot of sense. Maybe use 30-30 brass blown out strait and use 3 balls around .390. ??? So many ideas.

Jedman