45-70 deer alloy - mixing 20/30:1 with Lyman #2?

[M48scout]

I’m slowly working toward accumulating supplies to cast 45-70 boolits for a deer and hog hunting application. The idea is a 405gr flat nose (Lyman 457193, 457463, RCBS 45-405 etc) up around 1500-1600fps or so.

I don’t care for the idea of completely non-expanding, but I’m sure not looking for giant mushrooming either. More like the bullet should “upset” upon impact and just continue driving after that.

My first thought is to blend maybe 3 parts 30:1 with 1 part Lyman #2. Should maintain a heavy weight bullet (avoiding excess tin) while getting a little hardness with the watered down antimony. Using online calculators perhaps 10.7 BHN or so.

Thoughts from you experienced hunter out there?

[bishopgrandpa]

Don't over think it. I use 10:1 with a 385 gr. Lyman at 1400-1450 that is more than adequate.

[shortlegs]

I use a 50/50 mix of ww& pure. A 255 gr lee in 45 colt and it has penetrated thru both shoulders of a 300 lb hog. Velocity was a little over 1300 fps

[scattershot]

I would think that with a 45/70, you don’t need to worry about the alloy.

[725]

Agree with those above. Doesn't have to be too hard and it doesn't have to go too fast. The .45-70 is a marvelous design and works very well in the lower ranges. I generally load at the trap door levels and the performance is stunning. Accuracy is king and familiarity with ammo's trajectory is vital. Knowing where it hits at various distances will give you a full freezer.

[Edward]

What they said 100%/Ed

[M48scout]

Thank you men. Maybe I’ll just do a 20:1 haha

[Dom]

I'm using old scrap WW. BHN 10.5, @ 1500 fps with a 350gr FP bullet. Expansion not really necessary. A 405gr bullet at 1500 fps, I find overly punishing as to recoil. I have a heavy Marlin 45-70 LRX with 24" bbl.

[white eagle]

I tend to over think it as well
I use 25-1 in my 45-70 when I use that particular rifle
I do powder coat them though I don't know if you
have gotten that far into this craziness yet or not

[RickinTN]

I saw a bumper sticker the other day which read "Hold still while I overthink this". I believe this may be the case here. I use a softer alloy, half wheel weights and half pure, plus a bit of tin. Shoots well out of 3 of my 45-70's. Not sure about the other as it's never been fired.
Good Luck,
Rick

[M48scout]

I'm using old scrap WW. BHN 10.5, @ 1500 fps with a 350gr FP bullet. Expansion not really necessary. A 405gr bullet at 1500 fps, I find overly punishing as to recoil. I have a heavy Marlin 45-70 LRX with 24" bbl.

That’s a good data point, thank you

[M48scout]

I saw a bumper sticker the other day which read "Hold still while I overthink this". I believe this may be the case here. I use a softer alloy, half wheel weights and half pure, plus a bit of tin. Shoots well out of 3 of my 45-70's. Not sure about the other as it's never been fired.
Good Luck,
Rick

Y’all have me figured out for sure. LOL

[MT Gianni]

Play with your allow for accuracy with a 45-70 not for expansion.

[ChristopherO]

M48scout, I, like you, want a bit of expansion with the Accurate 460-405 WFN out of my 45/70. Maybe due to all the years shooting pure lead out of muzzleloaders. When I hear folks say expansion doesn't matter with a boolit of this size I am not one to accept that as gospel. First deer I ever shot was 35 years ago with a T/C Hawken in 45 caliber using the T/C Maxi Ball conical. The shot was perfect at only 30 yards or so. Yet that little buck didn't read the memo and didn't fall over as if poleaxed. The next year I 'upgraded' to a T/C 50 caliber with Maxi Hunters that I molded out of pure lead. That rifle has accounted for numerous deer over the years, but even with a 1/2" hole they didn't just fall over. Unless spined they ran from 20 yards to a hundred. Once doe, in particular took that slug just behind the front legs, spilled a bucket of blood after jumping the fence next to her. Both round patches of hide were found on the off side, and yet she ran through the woods as if nothing was wrong and eventually the spoor dried up. After many hours searching she was never found. Makes no sense to me to this day, nearly 30 years later. I got to drilling a small hole about 3/16" deep in those soft conicals to assist in expansion. The few I found upon autopsy/butchering were pleasing.
I know hard cast is the trend, but personally I like to see some expansion for additional damage along the way through. It hasn't hurt in the 45/70 either. To each his own.

[M48scout]

Thank you ChristopherO. That’s my line of thinking as well. I’ve either shot, or helped hunting club members track, dozens and dozens of deer over the years. With high powered rifles (30-06, etc) if shot behind the shoulder and not CNS hit, they may run 15 yards, might run 120 yards until their brain runs out of O2 and they figure out they are dead. So I just want take advantage of some of this round’s power and cause some reasonable tissue destruction while the bullet plows it’s way through.

I am very curious to see with my own eyes how “heavy big and slow” compares with “small light and fast”.

[beltfed]

My 9+1 COWW/Lino alloy ( BHN 15) has worked Well on many deer I have
shot with my '86 win 45-70 ( 385 gr RNFP at 1740fps)
and my 358 Win Sav 110 (358318 bullet 250gr RN paper patched, clocking 2350fps)
Always one shot one kill. And minimal bloodshot meat
beltfed/arnie

[M48scout]

Thank you beltfed

[Tar Heel]

I wonder if all the cave men sat around the fire discussing the relative hardness of their flint projectiles. Thugma use flint from the upper valley region where the softer color overtones and languid flow patterns assure deeper penetration. Ufgar use flint from mountain region where more brittle characteristics and delicate color transition from brown to blue assure a keener edge. Mrokba use flint from coastal region where the colder weather makes working the material easier and attaching it so much more eye appealing. All the old cave men were sitting back, stroking the hair of the young cave women and reflecting that they all just used sharp sticks to punch a hole in the heart of the tundra beasts. Getting stepped on was problematic but hey, the chicks all dug the show. No matter what you used, a hole in the heart was a hole in the heart.

:-) :-)

[Norske]

If you need expansion from a .458" diameter boolit, switch to a 12 gauge (.730" diameter).
28 ga =50cal; 20ga=63cal; 12ga=73cal.

[ChristopherO]

If you need expansion from a .458" diameter boolit, switch to a 12 gauge (.730" diameter).
28 ga =50cal; 20ga=63cal; 12ga=73cal.

Having lived and hunted in a slug only state my whole life you would be amazed at the deer that run off with 12 gauge holes blown through them that are not found by the hunter. I've come across the very deer the hunter has searched for all morning but couldn't find, double lung shot, too. Big holes doesn't automatically mean DRT or a good blood trail to follow. I'll never sniff at good expansion no matter what caliber the boolit is.

[gunseller]

Cape buffalo are shot with 458 solids. No explanation. Deer are lot smaller than Cape buffalo. For years I have been shooting deer with 400 fn cast bullets started ar 2000. Deer seem to go right down. All deer are different. Some a little tap and they go hooves up. The next one you can blow a soft ball hole in their chest and they run for a mile. Next batch I load will be closer to 1600fps. Recoil is getting a bit much.

[CLAYPOOL]

I shot one broad side 50 - 55 yards. 12 Ga. watched as i rode upwards with recoil. left eye. SEEN it blow stuff and blood out the other side. H e ran about 20 steps and stands there looking for the disturbance. So i give him another runs about ten more steps and drops dead. I still amazed how tough he was...

[curdog007]

I am very partial to 1 in 15 Pb/Sn - a 45 deep narrow hollow point will darn near double it's diameter with a double lung shot. May shed a quarter or more weight, but makes a huge wound channel and exit. Launch velocity 1850. I think adding antimony makes a boolit less ductile.

[M48scout]

I am very partial to 1 in 15 Pb/Sn - a 45 deep narrow hollow point will darn near double it's diameter with a double lung shot. May shed a quarter or more weight, but makes a huge wound channel and exit. Launch velocity 1850. I think adding antimony makes a boolit less ductile.

That’s good info. You drilling them or casting them that way? How’d you settle on 1:15?

[brewer12345]

I have been shooting deer with .530 round balls the last couple of years. Expansion is nice, but with a big bore I think it is pretty much optional. With a cast bullet, I would opt for the biggest meplat you can find that cycles and is accurate. I would cast it out of really soft stuff with a percent or two of tin and powder coat. Let the gun tell you how fast you should be shooting the bullet by showing you the most accurate load. You are shooting a deer with a huge slug so it is very likely to go right through the animal regardless of how fast the bullet is going.

[midnight]

I would go a little softer than wheelweights. I once shot a deer in the chest. She was facing me head on. The bullet (Lyman 405gr cast of WW) going 1200 fps entered the chest, penetrated the whole body & broke the femur on the way out. She still ran over 100 yds & was alive when I got to her requiring a finishing shot. From that I decided that a softer bullet was the way to go.

Bob

[M48scout]

Thank you guys

[curdog007]

M48sout Hollow noses are cast and only about .100 diameter, but quite deep - about 3/4 length of the boolit. I plug the hole with a kitchen matchstick. Weight 325 grains. I use that alloy because it's what's here.
BTW The English made a lot of wood pegged boolits like this, and they work rather well when you push them hard.

[warren5421]

I use my Trapdoor rifle loaded with 3031 loaded to government specs for black. Marlin I load 36 gr of IMR 3031, 405 GR RNFP hard cast bullet. Most deer shot with the Marlin don't move over 15-20 yards, a lot just dropped. 80 yards is a long shot around me. A good big flat point RN has dropped everything that I did my part on bullet placement.

[Wolfmanjack]

I use a 350 gr wfn cast from wheel weights and water quenched. I just can’t seem to get the accuracy I want from the softer bullets. So far I have taken 8 deer with with this bullet and half have fallen where shot, the other 4 haven’t made it farther than about 30 yards. I don’t have a chronograph but the load I use is not very fast, maybe 1300 fps.

[Buzzard II]

I would think that with a 45/70, you don’t need to worry about the alloy.

That is no lie. I used a hard cast store bought bullet in my Winchester 45-70, don't remember the load, but aimed for his shoulder and as the trigger broke the bear turned and I got him in the skull. The bullet did a complete pass through, and came out next to his tail. He was DRT. The guide and I tracked him about 2 feet. The bullet continued into the ground where it still is.

[Brett Ross]

I use the Lee 340GR, .457 Boolit, PCd to .459, 30:1. This is over 43 gr of 3031 with .5 gr dacron. I find this easy on my shoulder and nothing has survived it yet.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do hope your hunting range is not much past 100 yards with iron sights. 200 yards with a scope. The 45-70 does tend to be somewhat trajectory tough on the precision hunting out in the real world.

I have never had to pop a corn cruncher through the "grill door" but I think from most all other angles.
A 400 grain FN striking a bean eater at any velocity over 900 fps cast of anything from range scrap (our favorite) through rock hard water dropped line type will go through your smaller table fare and probably whatever is in the way on the other side.
Range scrap for us is free for the digging. Probably about as soft as 30-1 normally.
We do not need more than 1100 fps at muzzle and 1000 fps expands realiably out at 100 yards. It will also go through ribs, shoulders, spine and whatever tissue it needs to.
We have never recovered one fired on a corn cruncher but the exit holes always look like a .69 round ball (yep we shoot those also) was zipped through.
Even round nose range scrap cast makes deer become tasty dinner fare.
But we also started out pushing 400 grainers around 1500 (or more) thinking white tails wore kevlar or flack jackets. But having spent the last 30 years slicing and dicing with recurves and broad heads I have to write deer have been taken with everything man has ever had at hand. They are no harder to perferate today than they were when flint / obsidian was desired and used.
Whatever load is accurate and you are happy with will get it done.
Being over 70 now I do desire to drop them as close to me as possible. Crawling around on my knees looking at grass and under leaves was fun maybe 20 years ago. So we use soft cast heavy slugs moving about 1100 fps at the muzzle and bust all the shoulders, spines, ribs and heart / lung material that can get lined up.
Have fun and think "Trapdoors" were used to shoot through smallish horses to badly hurt the rider on the other side at 100-500 yards. Surely a soft cast slug going no faster today will be lethal to some 150 pound acorn eater.

[M48scout]

Thank you missionary. Sounds like I have quite a bit of leeway. LOL