Cast boolit accuracy problem in my crack-barrel Henry

[DaSOB]

Howdy, y'all -

This is my first post on this forum - I was referred here for possible help with an accuracy problem I have with my .45-70 crack-barrel Henry.

First, by way of introduction, my "fer real" name is Sam. You can call me that or anything else except "too late to eat". My initials are SOB (really!), hence my handle. I'm bumping 70, USAF veteran, ain't got a wife, don't want one :), got my guns to keep me warm. I like good beer, good eatin' and good companionship, I love to joke (especially at my own ugly self!) and I love to help my friends. Born and raised a north Louisiana country boy - I'll offer anyone my hand in friendship, but if they throw a punch they'll get one right back.

Anyway, enough carrying on about me. I have a bit of an accuracy problem in my Henry. It will shoot groups with jacketed bullets that are tighter than Ole MacGregor's coin purse, but cast boolits are all over Hell and half of Louisiana. I slugged the bore - groove diameter is .4565, bore probably a few thousandths less. The hard cast boolits I've been using mike at .458 and .459, so they should be fine. Granted, I've been pushing them at 1800 - 2000, which may be a bit much (BH is 16 or so), but I shot some with some Holy Black which should have given me ~1300-1400 and they still scattered like a flock of scared hens.

I'm perplexed, flummoxed and bumfuzzled over this. I posted a couple of pics of groups I shot at 25 yards (indoor range) for illustrative purposes. Any input y'all can provide will be muchly appreciated!

[beshears]

Your cast bullet holes almost look like the bullets are tipping. I would try a heavier bullet.

[JSnover]

Your cast bullet holes almost look like the bullets are tipping. I would try a heavier bullet.
I'll second that.

[DaSOB]

Thanks. I have some 405 gr. LFN from Hunters Supply that I have used to make up some Trapdoor-level loads with 33 gr. IMR 4198. I'm going to run those through my rifle and see how they perform.

According to the Berger Twist Rate Calculator (https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/), the 300 gr boolits should be stable at 1800 fps and 1:20 twist rate of the Henry. Possibly I'm just driving them too fast and making them skip the rifling.

[charlie b]

Were the cast fired immediately after the jacketed? What mold did the bullets come from? What lube are you using and did the bullets have gas checks? Did you check for lead in the bore after shooting? After firing jacketed only how much copper fouling do you have in the bore?

The holes do look like there is tipping, but, why would that be from too short a bullet? Just curious. Most tipping I have seen comes from too long a bullet.

[country gent]

Im also thinking a bullet around 405 grns in weight cast a little softer and loaded to around 1200 fps to start. The 45-70 round is a lower pressure round and the hard bullets may not be swelling to seal the bore, especially with the Black Powder loads.

It would help to have your actual load data primer powder + charge bullet and overall length.

Welcome to the Forum.

[DaSOB]

Im also thinking a bullet around 405 grns in weight cast a little softer and loaded to around 1200 fps to start. The 45-70 round is a lower pressure round and the hard bullets may not be swelling to seal the bore, especially with the Black Powder loads.

It would help to have your actual load data primer powder + charge bullet and overall length.

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks for the welcome!

Primers are large rifle, powder is 49.6 gr IMR 4198, boolit length is .76", COAL 2.52".

[DaSOB]

Were the cast fired immediately after the jacketed? What mold did the bullets come from? What lube are you using and did the bullets have gas checks? Did you check for lead in the bore after shooting? After firing jacketed only how much copper fouling do you have in the bore?

The holes do look like there is tipping, but, why would that be from too short a bullet? Just curious. Most tipping I have seen comes from too long a bullet.

The JHP were fired first, the cast immediately afterwards. Boolits are Meister Bullets 300 gr RNFP (https://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/481-C-22-P-0/4570-300GR-458-RNFP), no GC. Lube is what MC put on the boolits. Copper/lead fouling - I didn't check, but after only a few rounds I wouldn't think that would be a serious issue.

[Dusty Bannister]

If you are going to shoot black powder loads, you probably need a softer lead tin mix and a black powder lube to keep things working correctly. If you are going to shoot smokeless, you need to determine the strength of your rifle and not exceed the limits. From your load information and looking at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition, you are either pushing on the upper limit door or have it partly opened and is likely the cause your bullets are not holding a group.

If you have started your load development at the suggested starting load, you probably would have found a tight group closer to the start than the max load. Cast bullets can be wonderfully accurate if you let the rifle tell you what it wants and not try to bend it to your will. Good luck. And just to make it clear since I am not familiar with "Crack Barrel", you are referring to the Henry single shot rifle with the 1:20 twist barrel?

[DaSOB]

If you are going to shoot black powder loads, you probably need a softer lead tin mix and a black powder lube to keep things working correctly. If you are going to shoot smokeless, you need to determine the strength of your rifle and not exceed the limits. From your load information and looking at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition, you are either pushing on the upper limit door or have it partly opened and is likely the cause your bullets are not holding a group.

If you have started your load development at the suggested starting load, you probably would have found a tight group closer to the start than the max load. Cast bullets can be wonderfully accurate if you let the rifle tell you what it wants and not try to bend it to your will. Good luck. And just to make it clear since I am not familiar with "Crack Barrel", you are referring to the Henry single shot rifle with the 1:20 twist barrel?

Yep, it's the single-shot, break-action rifle. I'm just used to using the slang "crack barrel". Henry says that the rifle is good up to Marlin/Win lever gun levels, so I'm using that as a guide. I am pushing the upper limit with these few loads, working along the edge of the envelope mainly to determine how the rifle will perform with heavy, "Garrett level" loads. Most of my shooting will be with much lower power loads though. If I want to shoot slobber-knockers, I have a custom .45-70 on a Siamese Mauser action that can handle the heaviest loads I can stuff into it.

[358429]

Haha slobber knockers, I like your slang!

Do you cast your own bullets, or no, just buying the store made?


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I think you are just pushing the 300 grainers to fast for a plain base bullet. A 300 grain GAS-CHECKED is usually accurate (1.5-2 MOA or less) up to 2000-2200 fps, at least in my Marlins. My experience with commercial cast, plain base bullets is that they lose accuracy around 1200-1300 +/- fps. Many people get better accuracy with plain base 405's because they DO NOT shoot them very fast. At longer ranges, past 400 yards or so, the heavier bullets will have a less wind drift but for pleasure the lighter bullets have much less recoil at the SAME velocity. Haven't hunted buffalo or shot the 45-70 very much past 400 yards, so haven't used bullets heavier than 300-340 grains since about 1980. Shot a dozen/fifteen elk with 45-70, 300 grains at 2100 fps works just fine. Don't beat yourself up with recoil and save a lot of lead with the 300 grain. Slow down the plain base commercials or add gas checks over 1300-1400 fps.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

Primers are large rifle, powder is 49.6 gr IMR 4198, boolit length is .76", COAL 2.52".
Welcome to the forum,
I think you have been given some good "general" advice so far. Because slower speeds is more forgiving (accuracy-wise).

Am I correct in "guessing" you are trying to make a equivalent castboolit load in comparison to your Jacketed bullet load?
Because that almost always ends in folly.
>>>If that is correct? then here is my advice:
While you can sent a 45-70 CB at those speeds, it is usually a long process to find a node for your gun to get some decent accuracy, then once you dialed that in, then you can taylor your jacketed load to that speed and hopefully have the same POI.
good Luck.

[JoeJames]

Hidy Sam, and welcome to the forum. Good bunch of folks on here. I am still yet in elementary on casting, but thanks to these folks I am finally dropping boolits more accurate in my opinion than store bought. DaSOB is a dern good feller, and a good friend.

[megasupermagnum]

I think the others have it covered. I think you are simply too fast on what I can only assume is a plain base bullet. Bullet hardness barely matters, or at least a lot less than you would think. A gas check does a lot of great things for you, and if you are wanting to push up to that 1800+ fps range, you will need them to be accurate. I generally find heavy bullets shoot better, but I think you should be able to get a 300 grain to work. The keys are a well supported bullet, meaning lots of bearing surface, and not a long pointy nose. The big one is a gas check. A good lube can only help too, but a poor lube isn't going to cause the problems you are seeing. I think your accuracy problem is 95% because it is a plain base at high velocity. If you don't cast your own yet, give these guys a try. They are very expensive, but Matt's does a good job. I don't shoot a 45-70, so take this specific recommendation for what it is. This is the lightest gas checked bullet I could find. https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=253&zenid=k1hnnl4k40gff3iem4kvn53su0

Blackpowder is another game, and could possibly have a different issue. I'm no expert on BPCR, but I know from muzzleloaders that bore condition is a big concern. If you are using a poor lube, the powder fouling can be a cause of inaccuracy. I'm not sure hardness is the reason, but it is worth noting a lot of BPCR shooters cast with 20:1 alloy, 16:1, and 30:1 are common as well. I've not heard of them casting with hardball or any other real hard/high antimony alloys. I would say go to a traditional 45-70 bullet, like that 405 gr you mention for blackpowder. Lube with something known for working well with blackpowder like SPG.

[Goofy]

Dunno much about the .45-70 game but hard alloys are not necessary. BP works with stuff as soft as 30:1, and I'd not try smokeless with anything harder than 12 BHN, most likely something in the 10 BHN range. Sized to groove +.001 for smokeless, and groove to groove -.001 for Lord Black. I don't fool with light bullets for the cartridge, mostly stuff in the 475-530 grain range. Gas Checks for the smokeless loads but they may not be necessary for mild loads.

https://i.imgur.com/8kja5Q1.jpg

[Cosmic_Charlie]

One other thing to try is seating depth. My crack barrel .44 likes the boolits kissing the lands.

[DaSOB]

Haha slobber knockers, I like your slang!

Do you cast your own bullets, or no, just buying the store made?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I use store-bought boolits. I don't get to shoot all that often so I couldn't justify investing in a casting setup. Also, I'm "space challenged" in that I wouldn't have anyplace that I could safely cast lead - storeroom isn't very big, and it's full. There are plenty of boolits that fit my needs online, so I just go that route.

[DaSOB]

Welcome to the forum,
I think you have been given some good "general" advice so far. Because slower speeds is more forgiving (accuracy-wise).

Am I correct in "guessing" you are trying to make a equivalent castboolit load in comparison to your Jacketed bullet load?
Because that almost always ends in folly.
>>>If that is correct? then here is my advice:
While you can sent a 45-70 CB at those speeds, it is usually a long process to find a node for your gun to get some decent accuracy, then once you dialed that in, then you can taylor your jacketed load to that speed and hopefully have the same POI.
good Luck.

Thanks. I just started experimenting with this particular gun, and as you mentioned I need to try to find the right node. Shooting the log rollers isn't a matter of me planning to hunt Cape buff, I'm just testing the edge of the envelope for my own info. I do plan to slow the loads down a good bit for punching holes in paper and dispatching rogue watermelons. As several of you good folks have indicated, I need to slow the cast boolits down and leave the higher MV's for the jacketed.

[DaSOB]

Hidy Sam, and welcome to the forum. Good bunch of folks on here. I am still yet in elementary on casting, but thanks to these folks I am finally dropping boolits more accurate in my opinion than store bought. DaSOB is a dern good feller, and a good friend.

Hey, Joe - thanks for linking me to this forum.

Joe and I go way back, we're pretty much home folks being as he and I went to different high schools in the same town together. :) We've been known to chew the fat from time to time.

[JoeJames]

Hey, Joe - thanks for linking me to this forum.

Joe and I go way back, we're pretty much home folks being as he and I went to different high schools in the same town together. :) We've been known to chew the fat from time to time.
And, both of us graduated from high school the same year; just 54 years ago.

[charlie b]

First, I'd remove all the copper fouling from the barrel before shooting the cast.

For smokeless loads use a gas checked bullet.

Montana Bullet Works has both plain base and gas checked that will work for you. FWIW, he also has some good info in his FAQ section. He recommends gas checks above 1500fps with his big bore bullets that he alloys at 15bhn. He will supply with smokeless or BP lube.

Buffalo Arms Co is another one to look at for bullets. They also have the wads and other such stuff for BPCR duty, including paper patching if you ever decide to go that way. :)

Also from above, do your shooting with black or smokeless on one day. Clean, then use the other powder on another day. Two completely different lubes are needed and the fouling with black is something that needs special care. It will mess up a smokeless load.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned, you are simply pushing the 300 gr PB cast bullet way too fast. If it was a GC bullet and GC'd then it probably would shoot a lot better. If you want to use the 4198 powder with the commercial Meister 300 gr bullets drop back to 33 gr and use a dacron filler to lower the velocity to 1400 fps +/-. Better would be to try a powder on the order of Unique with loads starting them at 1100 fps up through 1400 fps.

The best option for "edge of the envelope" velocity with 300 +/- gr cast bullets is to get a mould for a GC'd bullet. I have found the RCBS 45-300-FN is an excellent one. That mould comes in both GC and PB form. The custom mould makers have similar moulds.

[PositiveCaster]

As others have stated, the OP is pushing the bullets too fast. However, tipping bullets are usually caused by a bullet which is too long to stabilize, so going to a heavier bullet is the exact opposite of the correct course of action.

But that isn’t the OP’s problem. If the bullets are indeed tipping at just 25 yards then they are being damaged in the barrel. Gas cutting of the bases, partial stripping in the grooves, who knows. But slowing the bullets down will help.

I had to laugh out loud at the comment that smokeless loads required gas checks! With almost 50 years experience with various .45-70s, most of my shooting has been with plain-based bullets. They shoot great if treated like lead boolits. Treated like jacketed bullets they usually failed. I have exactly one gas-checked .459” mould, the RCBS 405FN. My 30” Petersoli rolling block has a .454” groove diameter and shoots the gas checks better since I have to use .459” bullets to fit the throat.


.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The mold Larry Gibson mentioned RCBS - .45-300-FN is the mold I have been using, Accurate or NOE probably have clones. I have purchased gas-checked cast bullets from Matt's Bullets for 35 Rem, 308, 32 Special, and 444 with excellent results, though his lightest GC 45-70 bullet is 365 grains. Also check with Bullshop bullets, used his bullets for 32 Special, 348 Win and 308/300 Savage, again excellent results, he has a very large selection that are custom cast for each order. There are some others that produce excellent bullets but these two have produced bullets that have produced many 1-1.5 MOA groups out of my 308's and 32 Special. There have been folks who put a 45 gas check cup side down under plain base bullets for the gas check effect. The gas check would need to be sized the same or maybe a thou less (.001") and seated by the bullet to be safe. A dacron filter or slow powder that is slightly compressed would work here. Some other folks load a case full of 4831 or other'slow powders, getting black powder performance without the mess, plenty of different techniques. My hunting load in my Marlin 1895 is 58 gr Accurate 2015, a Fed 215M Primer, W-W brass and the RCBS 300 gas checked flatnose or the Barnes Original(pure copper jacket, pure lead core) 300 gr. Recoil is brutal and trajectory at 9800 feet elevation is surprisingly flat(no air!). The Hornady, Sierra, and Remington 300 gr bullets are fine for deer but do not hold together for bigger stuff. Enjoy but do not let that rifle beat you up, this is supposed to be fun.

[DaSOB]

A belated thank you to all for your sage advice. I'll drop back on my velocity a good bit and start there, then work up until I hit the butter zone.

[gwpercle]

Welcome Sam !
Gas Checked boolits help a lot with getting an accurate load worked up .
Looking at RCBS Cast Bullet Manual , 45-70 loads and every boolet from 300 to 500 grs. is a Gas Checked design ... my tip-o-the day is try a boolit with a gas check .

I've always got better accuracy with 35 cal and 30 cal rifles when I went to one with a gas check .

Gary

[DaSOB]

Welcome Sam !
Gas Checked boolits help a lot with getting an accurate load worked up .
Looking at RCBS Cast Bullet Manual , 45-70 loads and every boolet from 300 to 500 grs. is a Gas Checked design ... my tip-o-the day is try a boolit with a gas check .

I've always got better accuracy with 35 cal and 30 cal rifles when I went to one with a gas check .

Gary

Thanks, Gary. I have some Cast Performance 405 gr WNFPGC that I'll load to Trap Door velocity. My Lyman manual shows 35.0 IMR 4198 pushing a 405 gr boolit at about 1400 FPS. I may give that a try.

I see you're in Red Stick - so am I. I live in Rushmore, just east of Flannery on Choctaw.

[Half Dog]

I can’t add to the great advise given but I wanted to say hi. I grew up in Shreveport a few years ( some say many) years ago. I still chuckle and picture the team singing Hoo-dat.

[JoeJames]

I can’t add to the great advise given but I wanted to say hi. I grew up in Shreveport a few years ( some say many) years ago. I still chuckle and picture the team singing Hoo-dat.

Neville High School Tigers here.

[Rapier]

If the rifle is fairly accurate with jacketed bullets, those bullets are holding the rifling, or lands without stripping. If the cast you are shooting are not accurate they are not hard enough to hold to the lands at your current velocity, the bullets are stripping. Since you are buying factory cast, you do not have control of the hardness of the alloy used, leaving you with one control, the velocity. Try slowing the bullet down to see if the bullet then maintains proper rotation by the lands, without stripping.
I prefer sized to groove diameter, no more than .001 over and by your notes you are .0015 over. You could adjust this with a push through sizer, using case lube if you wish.
Hard cast, solid base, bullets do not obturate by any meaningful amount, they need be sized to the groove diameter or slightly larger before you load and fire them.

I cast my 458 bullets real hard, about 23bn powder coat them and push them hard in my 98 Mauser with R-7.

[gwpercle]

Thanks, Gary. I have some Cast Performance 405 gr WNFPGC that I'll load to Trap Door velocity. My Lyman manual shows 35.0 IMR 4198 pushing a 405 gr boolit at about 1400 FPS. I may give that a try.

I see you're in Red Stick - so am I. I live in Rushmore, just east of Flannery on Choctaw.

I'm in the Middle of the city ...in the old Capital Heights Subdivision , nearest landmark is Webb Memorial Golf Course ... about 3-4 blocks away . Have lived here in an old 1929 built house for 49 years .
You will find several natives roaming around the site , some still in LA but many have left the state .
Gary

[DaSOB]

I'm in the Middle of the city ...in the old Capital Heights Subdivision , nearest landmark is Webb Memorial Golf Course ... about 3-4 blocks away . Have lived here in an old 1929 built house for 49 years .
You will find several natives roaming around the site , some still in LA but many have left the state .
Gary

Capitol Heights - Gov't./S. Foster/College area. Yup, I'm familiar with it.

[DaSOB]

Neville High School Tigers here.

Ouachita Parish HS Lions - arch-rival of Neville back in Joe's and my day! The games were always spirited, as was the usual after-game fight!!

[DaSOB]

If the rifle is fairly accurate with jacketed bullets, those bullets are holding the rifling, or lands without stripping. If the cast you are shooting are not accurate they are not hard enough to hold to the lands at your current velocity, the bullets are stripping. Since you are buying factory cast, you do not have control of the hardness of the alloy used, leaving you with one control, the velocity. Try slowing the bullet down to see if the bullet then maintains proper rotation by the lands, without stripping.
I prefer sized to groove diameter, no more than .001 over and by your notes you are .0015 over. You could adjust this with a push through sizer, using case lube if you wish.
Hard cast, solid base, bullets do not obturate by any meaningful amount, they need be sized to the groove diameter or slightly larger before you load and fire them.

I cast my 458 bullets real hard, about 23bn powder coat them and push them hard in my 98 Mauser with R-7.

I checked the bullet jump with the CP 405 gr boolits (https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/shop/cast-performance-bullets/458-405gr-wlngc-459-dia-50-count/), and with the boolit seated right to the cannelure they're just touching the rifling. So I'm going to try some 1300-1400 FPS loads with IMR 4198 to see what transpires. After reading all the great input above, I think I've just been trying to push the cast too hard. BHN is stated to be 18-21 - their website claims that they have fired their bullets at velocities as high as 3100 FPS with good results (https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/). Of course, that might be with .30 caliber boolits.

[koger]

I saw it mentioned earlier, Unique is a great powder for cast bullets. I shoot 15 grs for 300gr cast slugs, with great accuracy, and they have done well on deer here in KY. The deer I have shot were from 70-125 yds, drilled thru both shoulders like butter, and you could eat right up to thve hole with not a lot of bloodshot meat. Deer did not go anywhere. Recoil is very light. Welcome to the site, we will treat you so many ways you will have to like one of them.

[iron brigade]

The load I use in my marlin 1895 cowboy
31.5 grains of I4198
Lee 405 HB
Will do 2" groups @ 100 yards with irons.