Frustrating 43 Spanish Reloads

[DoctorBill]

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I recently acquired an Argentine .43 Spanish Rolling Block rifle.

The Brass for it was made in two ways.
Twenty Starline 50-110 Brass was annealed and reformed in the LEE 43 Spanish Die.

Complex work requiring a Lathe and much annealing (whole cartridge).
https://www.spokaneguntrader.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=158905

THEN - I found out that 44-77 Sharps Brass (Buffalo Arms in Idaho) can be IMMEDIATELY reformed
with the LEE dies w/o any problems - got 30 of them. NO WORRIES !

Now comes the Bullet ! A PAIN !

I made an Aluminum MOLD and cast straight sided WW Alloy bullets and Paper Patched them.
Worked great ! Paper patch ANY bullet less than .439" diameter - should work well.

HERE is where I got into trouble: I purchased a LYMAN 439186 Mold and cast bullets.
The Brass Cases fit into the rifle nicely.
I loaded 30 of the the LYMAN .43 Spanish bullets with 12 grains of TRAIL BOSS and when I
tried loading them in the Rifle - NO GO ! ! !

After MUCH frustrating experimenting and trying this and that, I figured out that the NECK
DIAMETER was too much by about one thousandths of an inch (more or less). Nothing I did
let the bullets fit. I even made a Taper Crimper out of 7/8ths Threaded Rod. Nope.......

Long story short - I finally fingered out that the Lyman Bullet was the problem !
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If you measure all the Lube Rings, you will find the Large Upper Ring is 0.439" diameter.
The smaller lower Lube Rings are around 0.435" diameter. Herein lies the problem (for me anyway).

I pulled all the 30 bullets and messed about until I realized that if I inserted the Lyman Bullet
into the Brass Case only "up to" the Large Lube Ring, they fit into my rifle !
The larger Lube Ring makes the Cartridge NECK diameter TOO LARGE for my 43 Roller !
OAL was NOT a problem.

Lesson for me was - do not allow the Brass to get up to the Larger Lube Ring ! No worries after that !
Perhaps this is obvious to anyone else.......

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I hope this helps anyone with 43 Spanish reloading problems using the Lyman Cast Bullet.

Paper Patching, if done with ANY bullet smaller that 435 caliber, should work fine.

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P/S - Even ALOX Bullet Lube on the lower rings was enough to make the neck to large !

BTW - informative blurb: A Cheap Thrift Store Wine Bottle Stopper Cone makes a PERFECT
cartridge Brass Flaring Tool ! Grind off the point - after you drink the wine.
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DoctorBill (AKA Martini Shooter elsewhere)
7-26-2021

[TNsailorman]

The old Remington .43 roller usually came with tight throats. I found out, like you, that the bullet Lyman designed for the rifle had a problem when you tried to seat them to the crimp ring with paper patching. Having tried the paper patch route and decided it was not worth the effort. I now lube with Lee Liquid Lube and get very good results with it. I too use Trail Boss powder with good accuracy and soft shooting loads. james

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very interesting and informative post, Doc. l have a .43 Spanish Roller carbine. I followed the information on Track of the Wolf's website and purchased some of their brass. Purchased some Lee dies from TotW, and some precast bullets from Midway. The bullets measured out to the correct diameter, but when I loaded a couple I found that the dies did not have a crimp feature. The bullets were loose in the case mouths. I decided to have Lee make me a custom Factory Crimp Die, which they did in reasonable time at a very fair price. They even crimped the two sample pieces of brass I was required to send in with the order to show it could be done, and returned the brass (which they normally don't do), I guess because I told them it cost $1.30 per case. It worked out fine, and the old Roller is back in service.

DG

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[ddixie884]

Cool........

[toot]

I make mine out of 348 WIN. & 8M/M LEBEL, brass. and they even work for the SPANISH REFORMADO ROLLER. I use reloading data for the starting load for a TRAPDOOR SPRINGFIELD. been doing it for over 60+ yrs. same load for both cartridges, 43 SPANISH & REFORMADO. with a .439 DIA, cast lead bullet. I am not telling any one to use my loads.it is said that when the SPANISH SOLDIERS run out OF / could not get 43 CAL REFORMADO cases they shot 43 SPANISH ammo in there ROLLERS. so I tried it and it worked fine. and after shooting them I used the same load for both, and thumb pressed the heads into the cases. saved on $ for the REFORMADO DIES.

[TNsailorman]

That's interesting Toot, since the Reformondo is .454 diameter and the .43 Spanish is .439 diameter.

[missionary5155]

We have rifles and carbines and we have yet had one that did not need a .443 or larger slug to use smokeless.
And some do have tight chambers that make loading a real juggling act.
But in the end 40-1 cast .440 slugs breach seated with a case full of 2F Goex will sley any critter I have ever seen out to 100 yards.

[TNsailorman]

Missionary, That is what I size my .43 Spanish boolits, .440 and Lee Lube.

[toot]

as I said it was a stop gap necessity/ measure in war time. and yes accuracy failed. but they were still toughing lead at the enemy. and the smaller caliber will load & fire fine. I have tried it to get REFORMADO BRASS. and thumb press the cast bullets into the case, to reload them. no dies necessary. strange things happen in war time situation's.

[marlinman93]

You need to buy a case neck reamer and open up the case necks the .001" you need. I'd go slightly over that amount as they'll chamber even easier. Turn the necks outside, and then use a neck expander to open them up to accept your bullets.
I use a K&M case neck turning tool for several guns that need a larger bullet than what will chamber loaded in my guns. It easily fixes the issue.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1017596292?pid=789257

You can also use a neck reamer in a case trimmer to open up the inside necks. But you'll need to likely have one custom ground to the size you meed.

[DoctorBill]

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Just a note:

These metal Wine Bottle Cone Stoppers make for Fantastic Brass Case mouth flaring tools.
Just grind down the point on it - but drink the Wine first.

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Just for the Grins of it.....

DoctorBill

[uscra112]

Both the Spanish and the Mauser .43s had tight necks, as did some American rifles in the later 1800s. They were specifically designed to use dead soft swaged bullets, paper patched. The bullets were intentionally a little undersized, so they'd load into fouled throats. The soft lead would obturate to groove diameter on firing. This was fairly common practice in the short era when paper patched ammo was state-of-the-art.

I've read of people reaming the necks larger. At the very least, use the softest lead you can for bullets. 40:1 ought to do it.

[marlinman93]

Soft lead undersized bullets will work, if the total patched diameter is small enough to chamber. And paper patched bullets also can shoot quite well a little undersized. But of course you should be using BP if you want them to bump up and give good accuracy.
None of this really applies to your load of smokeless, and trying to get a bullet sized to your groove to chamber seated in the case. Only way you could use the existing cases, and a correctly sized bullet seated, is to run the loaded cartridge back into the sizing die to bump it slightly and see if it chambers then. But that would basically be swaging the bullets down smaller while seated, and then they might not fit the groove diameter well. If there's enough bullet seated out above the case mouth it might work though. As it will only swage down the lands that are inside the case neck.