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cheapsk8
01-05-2006, 08:21 PM
I have bled enough info on casting and big bores over the years off this site as well as the old BB, and before that, shooters.com . I never bothered to register when the switch was made to this board. I figure I would like to provide some info to the next fella that is in need.

The rifle: Winchester Trails End in .44 mag with 20" bbl. Completely factory, including the sights. (Now upgraded to a Williams FP)

The Bullet: NEI #263 295gr LBT style air dropped from mould. WW alloy. Not sized but kept at .432 from mould. Lubed with a thick coating of Lee liquid alox.

The load: 18gr of 2400(newer Alliant lot) . Fed 150 LP primer. Cases did not matter for me whether they were mixed or sorted by brand/lot. Can shoot with out ear muffs with no discomfort.

The result:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v667/JasonStorey/Moose/?action=view&current=P1000586.jpg

Two through the lungs at 80-90 yards. Did not get complete penetration, but will next time as I will use water dropped WW. I would like a blood trail if I have to track. Textbook broadside shot. This may be my last hunt with my father as he is in pretty rough shape. The .44 will go again next year(my other rifles are getting jealous).
Best, cheapsk8


PS It's great to be back as part of the gang.

waksupi
01-05-2006, 08:42 PM
That oughta keep you busy cutting steaks for awhile! Welcome aboard, and good job, both on the moose, and taking your dad hunting.

cheapsk8
01-05-2006, 09:05 PM
Cut and wrapped. I'm a little slow posting this here. This was shot back in October.

MTWeatherman
01-05-2006, 09:55 PM
Nice Moose...and good job.

Were you able to recover one of those .44 bullets...curious what kind of expansion you got, if any, from those air cooled WW?

I have yet to recover a cast bullet from an animal...sounds like it may take a moose to do it.

cheapsk8
01-06-2006, 12:36 AM
Despite neither bullet making it through(it was a 900 lb animal), I could not find either as it was dark while we were gutting. He was shot just at dusk. In my bullet testing, these air dropped ww didn't expand. They got a little squised down, and eroded on the leading edges. That was in harder test mediums. My hard cast test slugs went approx 1.5 times further through test medium. Next year WILL be hard cast. This animal was run out on the road by a large pack of wolves. We know because after he was down, at least 10-12 wolves started to howl all at the same time 150-200 yards in from the side of the road where he ran out. This lasted a good1-2 min. I was busier loading my 12 gauge with #4 buck than I was digging for slugs.

Bass Ackward
01-06-2006, 07:12 AM
Despite neither bullet making it through(it was a 900 lb animal), I could not find either as it was dark while we were gutting. He was shot just at dusk. In my bullet testing, these air dropped ww didn't expand. They got a little squised down, and eroded on the leading edges. That was in harder test mediums. My hard cast test slugs went approx 1.5 times further through test medium. Next year WILL be hard cast. This animal was run out on the road by a large pack of wolves. We know because after he was down, at least 10-12 wolves started to howl all at the same time 150-200 yards in from the side of the road where he ran out. This lasted a good1-2 min. I was busier loading my 12 gauge with #4 buck than I was digging for slugs.


Cheapskate,

Congratulations.

This is very informative. And a wealth of information could have been gained if just one of those bullets could have been recovered.

Let me throw another thought for you to consider. What "IF" your hard test medium didn't give you a false reading and they did not expand?

cheapsk8
01-06-2006, 08:57 AM
It is quite possible. However, with a between the ribs broadside hit, a meplat of .3" and an impact velocity of app 1400 fps, one would have expected at least one of these slugs to make it through on an animal even this large. I am taking some scientific liberties here. With no bones hit I at least would have hoped a non-expanded slug would have made it to the offside meat/hide.

Any experianced input towards this theory?

Bass Ackward
01-06-2006, 10:23 AM
It is quite possible. However, with a between the ribs broadside hit, a meplat of .3" and an impact velocity of app 1400 fps, one would have expected at least on of these slugs to make it through on an animal even this large. I am taking some scientific liberties here. With no bones hit I at least would have hoped a non-expanded slug would have made it to the offside meat/hide.

Any experianced in put towards this theory?


Cheapskate,

I would certainly think so too. The only experience I have with recovered bullets in 44 are 240 Hornady XTPs. I have had a 90 pound doe stop a 1400 fps, 240 Hornady XTP at about the same distance. It only mushroomed out to wadcutter status. In fact I have recovered four of the 240 XTPs that have slightly expanded from deer that aren't even close in bone construction. Some of those were more like 1800 fps.

But I have no 44 experience on Moose which is why I find this interesting. I was just sitting here multiplying velocity times weight to give me an idea how to compare my load with a hard, non expanding bullet.

240 X 1800 = 432,000
295 X 1400 = 413,000

I would think 1600 would be possible in a 20" barrel and give you a strike velocity of over 1500 fps at that range.

295 X 1600 = 472,000

Comments?

cheapsk8
01-06-2006, 11:39 AM
True, I can acheive that velocity. However, I had two goals in mind.

1: I wanted to avoid H-110 that has acted persnickety in the wide temperature variations I experiance in the far reaches of Northern Ontario. I much prefer 2400 as a "go to" powder as I only have to keep standard LP primers on hand (I also shoot 45 ACP). It has been my experiance that H-110/296 act up in cold weather without Magnum primers. I can not buy primers, or any other loading component in my city.

2: I own many rifles that fire many cartridges all of them suitable for moose. I wanted a rifle that was a 100 yard moose rifle that does not cause severe ringing in my ears everytime I pull the trigger. Also, I hunt/trap in really remote areas where bringing several firearms is not practical, I have taken many, many grouse and rabbits with this rifle and shoot in hunting situations more than one or two times a year.

Also, all I have read on those experianced in revolver/hardcast hunting claim a hard cast travelling at a "mere" 1200 fps will penetrate darn near anything. I am getting close to having my cake and eat it too.

Best, cheapsk8

Edward429451
01-06-2006, 12:53 PM
(and don't try this at home kids, just cause its safe in my gun don't mean squat to you & your gun!)

Having said that, I've chrony'd a very similar load with a hardcast and will post the results for your perusal...

44 Mag.
300 gr "Impact" brand hardcast
18.0 gr 2400
Fed LP primers (non Mag)
FC Brass
1.602 OAL
Heavy crimp

Chrony'd at about 10 ft.
Avg Velocity 1401 fps (10 shots)
Extreme Spread 54 fps
Avg Deviation 14 fps
Energy 1308 fpe
Temp 40 deg F
Altitude 8000 ft
High Velocity 1423 fps
Low velocity 1369 fps
Gun Ruger Super Blackhawk (7.5")

I kept 5 shots in about 1.5" at 50 yds and pulled one shot to open it to about 2.5". No high pressure signs, gravity ejection for the most part. This load rings that steel table like a gong when touched off. 10 rounds left the table peppered with unburnt powder. I took this load up to 20.0 gr of 2400 and began seeing flattened primers and backed it off a little. Book max is 15.7 (for a 300g)

Nice Moose!!

Bass Ackward
01-06-2006, 04:50 PM
Also, all I have read on those experianced in revolver/hardcast hunting claim a hard cast travelling at a "mere" 1200 fps will penetrate darn near anything. I am getting close to having my cake and eat it too.

Best, cheapsk8


Cheapsk8,

Looking at Eds information in a 7.5" RBH, you are probably already around 1500 fps I would think

OK. Please bring this back up this coming October when you bag the next one. I will be interested to hear the results. What was your "hard" medium?

Thanks, Ed

DOUBLEJK
01-06-2006, 11:04 PM
Very nice goin' on the moose...:smile:
I posted this un' a few years back on old shooters site but from my memory here goes...
We had a cow break a leg down in the river bottom we normally don't pasture cause its purty rough...but with the 1000 year drought on we used it n paid fer it with a broke leg...
Neways she was a full blood Salers weighing bout 1400lbs...
Rossi 92 20" .44Mag...280Gr. LBT WFNGC heat treated over 18.5Gr. AA#9...
Shot her in the left shoulder at bout 25yds. ...broke it and exited out right side behind shoulder....cow was down n out in a few seconds....penetration was at least 24" including her heavy left shoulder blade...

fatnhappy
01-06-2006, 11:11 PM
It is quite possible. However, with a between the ribs broadside hit, a meplat of .3" and an impact velocity of app 1400 fps, one would have expected at least one of these slugs to make it through on an animal even this large. I am taking some scientific liberties here. With no bones hit I at least would have hoped a non-expanded slug would have made it to the offside meat/hide.

Any experianced input towards this theory?


And I thought you needed a .375 ultra mag for moose. That's what G&A told me........ ;-)
Congrats! That's a beautiful moose. I hope your father surprises you and goes out next year.

cheapsk8
01-07-2006, 12:11 AM
(and don't try this at home kids, just cause its safe in my gun don't mean squat to you & your gun!)

Having said that, I've chrony'd a very similar load with a hardcast and will post the results for your perusal...

I kept 5 shots in about 1.5" at 50 yds and pulled one shot to open it to about 2.5". No high pressure signs, gravity ejection for the most part. This load rings that steel table like a gong when touched off. 10 rounds left the table peppered with unburnt powder. I took this load up to 20.0 gr of 2400 and began seeing flattened primers and backed it off a little. Book max is 15.7 (for a 300g)

Nice Moose!!


That's interesting. My 18gr load in the 20" bbl is getting 1474fps avg 5 yards from the muzzle. I felt this would do all I required and it did, but I would sure like a second hole on the offside for more blood.

Just for interest to those who asked, my "hard" test mediums were a very scientific fresh cut aspen log, and, well, sand. I used these for comparison between hard cast/air dropped only. I in no way assumed this would be an accurate representation of live flesh.

On another note although I was after long case/hearing life, I may try to increase to up to 19 gr based on the 20gr data getting preasure signs. I will be careful of course, and work up slowly. My 18gr load was extrapolated from several sources using "close" loads.

Thank you for all your kind words and as I gain more data on the .44, I will contribute as long as anyone is interested. This year I WILL get a black bear with this load.

Best, cheapsk8

versifier
01-07-2006, 01:24 AM
I have watched moose struck into the heart/lung area with several .30cal 180gr RN jacketed bullets without an exit wound. The same bullet would go sailing through several deer if you lined them up - in fact I have seen it kill two deer with one shot, second one was standing behind the intended target, a filled tag is a filled tag.... In my experience, there are two factors to consider when hunting moose: 1) Moose are f***ing STUPID and it takes them a few minutes to figure out that they're dead, 2) If you don't have a friend with a skidder handy, you have to pay attention to where you are and how you are going to get 1000lbs of dead critter out of there before you pull the trigger. Anybody can go out and find one standing up to its a*****e in the middle of a swamp, but only a fool shoots it there! (Unfortunately, there's no shortage of fools - I guess they put the rubber on the banana like they show 'em in school....) I have a friend with a small skidder and a long winch cable who spends the almost two weeks of our moose season rescuing them for reasonably exhorbitant fees and some meat!
I have never seen the need of a blood trail with moose as they aren't at all scared of people and don't usually go anywhere when shot, just stand there staring STUPIDLY at you while you load a second mag in case they don't fall over. (We don't have any wolves here, though, so they fear nothing at all.) When the bullet doesn't exit, you know it has expended ALL of its energy in the animal, and even if it doesn't expand (though I bet yours did), it does a hell of a lot of damage when it hits the very soft tissue inside the chest cavity. I have watched a bull with two lighter 165gr bullets that went through parts of his heart (neither exited) continue ambling along for 150ft or so, apparently oblivious until he fell over. I have never been in a situation where any tracking was required after a good shot. The only time I have seen complete penetration was when some cheap idiot used milsurp FMJ's (despite the fact that they're illegal to use on them here) and his co-permitee finished the job properly with real bullets. :violin:

StarMetal
01-07-2006, 01:52 AM
Bass,

I"m not a 44mag fan but I did own one. It was a 6.5 inch barrel Smith Classic. I had it scoped. I couldn't buy 240 Hornadys that season I used it in Ohio, so ended up getting a box of 180 gr Hornadys. I shot a 200 lb doe from a tree stand at about 35 to 40 yards. I shot her where her neck met her body. I've never seen a deer go down as fast as her using anything I've ever shot them with, I was shocked and impressed at the same time. Anyways the reason I mention this is that my bullet went throught the deer. In fact it was 16 inches of her that it went throught and it left an exit hole about the size of a grapefruit. I was talking to the Hornady ballistic lab not long after and they where more then quite interested in all the details because befor my using a 180 gr for deer they weren't recommending it. They wanted to know where she was hit, how much deer did it go throught, did it hit bone. What did the exit hole look like. They were literally surprised and the guy said they probably will recomment it. I'm surprised you revovered a 240 XTP from a 90 pound doe. Just doesn't make sense.

Joe

Bass Ackward
01-07-2006, 07:29 AM
I'm surprised you revovered a 240 XTP from a 90 pound doe. Just doesn't make sense.

Joe


Joe,

Well .... I see you have your email address listed so I will send you a picture of them later today when I get enough light.

StarMetal
01-07-2006, 11:39 AM
John

I don't have my email listed, I'll send it to you in a pm.

Joe

Ranch Dog
01-13-2006, 12:54 PM
Nice moose cheapsk8!

I'm a 444 Marlin fan but have become quite taken with a Marlin 336-44 I acquired. No moose down here (I do apply for a Maine NR tag each year) but I've killed quite a few hogs with the rifle.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/33644/33644_Hog.jpg

It has become my truck and kitchen door gun because of the reasons you like yours. We get a lot of big hogs tearing up our yard at night and everytime I shot the 444 I durn near caused my wife to jump out of her skin! The 44 Mag is a little easier on the ears for sure and a bit lighter to carry off into the sticks.

I've been using the Lee TLC432-285-RF and a couple of Beartooth bullets with the rifle. Here is some data that I have posted for others...

Ranch Dog's 336-44 (http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Firearms/33644/)

versifier
01-13-2006, 04:54 PM
Ranch Dog,
Odds are pretty good in NH for a NR permit, too.