Problems with 1930 S&W 32-20 HE

[FISH4BUGS]

I got this pristine 32-20 HE from a member here. It is a 5" blue made in 1930. Probably a solid 95% gun
I assembled the brass, bullets, mould and dies.
I started testing my first loads (115gr cast w/ 3.6 gr ww231).
The bullets sized are .313"
Using Lee dies and not my favorite dies.
Using Dillon 550 to load on.
The WW brass is 1.28" trimmed to uniformity. ( I have RP brass and Starline also but I am starting with the WW).
Seated right to the crimp groove.
The empty sized brass is tight going into the cylinder. Sometimes it will not seat fully unless I give it a push.
Once loaded, the rounds are even more difficult to seat fully in the cylinder.
They need a REAL push to seat in the cylinder.
Once seated into the cylinder they shoot just fine.
There is no indication of leading after a dozen test rounds.
Extraction is not easy but NOT because of over pressure, that's for sure.
I have never had these kinds of issues with any revolver I have ever owned.
Care to advise on how to start attacking this problem?

[square butte]

Do you have the same problem with sized brass from all three brands of brass? If you have the same problem with all three brands of brass, my guess would be improperly adjusted dies or out of spec dies. Is it possible your dies are not setting the shoulder back far enough? Try sizing your brass on a single stage press instead of the Dillon and see if you have the same issue. Does your sized .313 bullet pass through the through the cylinder throats easily by itself, or is there resistance? It would help to know your cylinder throat diameters. Will a factory loaded round chamber more easily?

[Outpost75]

Also check chamber neck diameters with soft lead buckshot and compare their diameter to your loaded rounds. If you seat bullets and crimp in the same operation, with the thin .32-20 brass you might be forming a slight bulge of the case mouth at the crimp. Try seating and crimping separately.

[david s]

I have a S&W 3rd change 32-20 and a Browning 53 also 32-20 and they are not compatible. The S&W's chambers are quite a bit bigger than the Browning. Sizing Starline brass in Hornady dies (with a 550B) didn't size the cases enough to fit the Browning. I went to RCBS Cowboy dies and now cases get sized enough. The loads are set to the 1905's un-heat treated cylinder pressures. The chamber dimensions for the 32-20 seem to be all over the place. Finding a set of dies that match your chambers may be the biggest hurdle.

[FISH4BUGS]

Oh man.....lots of things to check here.
FIRST I will check the brass. I have trimmed RP and WW and new Starline.
I will try all three. I know the WW is not great so that leaves two.
I found a set of Lyman 3 die dies.
Lyman seem OK?
RCBS is out of stock everywhere in the world it seems.
I'll check the brass and report back.

[FISH4BUGS]

OK....loading NEW Starline brass is only just a tiny bit better in terms of seating on the rim of the cartridge properly in the cylinder. I still have to give it a push about the last .17".
The mouth of the cylinder measures 3.10-3.11" so that tells me something has to happen with .002" since the bullets were sized .313". Now, bear in mind my calipers are RCBS case Length calipers so they are not within NASA tolerances. The bullets fall through the cylinder except for some very minor tightness at the very end with the bullet sticking out of the chamber - hardly any at all.
Am I missing something here?
Next try? How about new dies?
I really have the hots to shoot this gun. It is uber cool and just a terrific quality gun like S&W made in 1930.
32-20 is a neat little round in between 22 and 38 and is very pleasant to shoot.
I don't have a single stage press to try out so I have to work with what I have.
Likewise I don't have a factory round to compare it to either.
There is no reason the Dillon shouldn't work just as well.
I have never been a fan of Lee dies except for their Factory Crimp dies.
Next? Dies maybe?

[david s]

Silly question, is there anything under the cylinders ejector star?

[FISH4BUGS]

Silly question, is there anything under the cylinders ejector star?

Not a silly question at all.
I just checked the gun and the ejector star and cylinder rebated area where the ejector star goes in is clean as a whistle.
I thought about the dies, but they are down as far as the sizer/decapper can go.
Like any press, you can only go so far on the upstroke to force the case into the die.
I pull the handle down, come up just a hair, then just a hair further down with the die so there is just a little resistance at the top of the stroke.
You really can't get that case into the die any further than that.
I am really stumped.
If I had to theorize, it is the dies at this point.
But hey ---- I am still open to suggestions.

[square butte]

Did you try unsized new Starline brass - or sized Starline brass. Try em both ways. Same with the RP. If your .313 bullets slide through the cylinder throats with just a tad bit of mild pressure, they should be about right for your cylinder. Seems like something is not in spec with your sized case dimensions - either at the shoulders or at the necks. Since you don't have a factory round to compare for chambering, you could look at a case dimension spec sheet for 32-20 and compare measurements with your sized cases. I wonder if your Dillon shell plate has enough play in it to affect the location of your case shoulder location? You are gonna get it figured out . . . Seems like dies or die adjustment.

[JMtoolman]

I'm having exactly the same problem with the two I have. I have been sizing my bullets to .313 and that is too big in both. There jamming to a stop about .090 from seating, and hanging up on the neck. I'm going to size the next bullets to .311. That should solve that problem! The necks are just a bit too big with the .313 size. The toolman.

[Dan Cash]

I suspect your Lee dies are a large part of the problem. There is nothing about the Dillon press that could be causing your problem, especially since you have the problem with new, unsized brass. Smoke a case with a candle and then chamber it and see where it rubs. I had similar problems with my 1920 Colt Army revolver and a new Uberti 1873 clone. I had to size the bullets to 311 and seat them deeper than the crimp groove on my bullet.

[GooseGestapo]

Removed by poster.

[Mk42gunner]

I only have a few sets of Lyman dies, but the set I have in .25-20 seem fine to me. They size the cases enough to easily chamber in my Husqvarna single shot rifle.

I would rather have Lyman than Lee loading dies in most cases. Not sure they will totally solve your problem with your .32-20, but they might.

Robert

[FISH4BUGS]

Well, now I guess I will focus on the dies.
Good suggestion on the candle thing. I will do that.
That should produce some good info.
The .313" bullets DO go through the cylinder as I said earlier so that is probably not the problem unless they fatten the case at the neck when loaded.
Unfortunately I need to work this week so I may not get back to this until the weekend but I will certainly post the results.
Thanks to all for the suggestions.

[FISH4BUGS]

Interesting fact: the Starline NEW brass fits into the chamber perfectly. I really DO think it might be the dies.

[Gray Fox]

You might try making a dummy round with the Starline brass, but only bell the case mouth, seat and crimp one of your boolits. If it doesn't fully chamber your boolits might be just that much too big. GF

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'd try a different sizing die. Screw it all the way down until it contacts the top surface of the shell holder, then raise the ram a bit and screw the die in just a smidge more. Also, a different brand of shell holder may help, as it sounds from your description of having to push the last .17" of the case into the cylinder is just about the amount that would be slop between a shell holder and a die not screwed in far enough. You may be able to find a thinner shell holder. I have two SAA-type revolvers in .32-20 for which I used Lee dies with great success.

DG

[FISH4BUGS]

I'd try a different sizing die. Screw it all the way down until it contacts the top surface of the shell holder, then raise the ram a bit and screw the die in just a smidge more. Also, a different brand of shell holder may help, as it sounds from your description of having to push the last .17" of the case into the cylinder is just about the amount that would be slop between a shell holder and a die not screwed in far enough. You may be able to find a thinner shell holder. I have two SAA-type revolvers in .32-20 for which I used Lee dies with great success.
DG

That is exactly what I have done. I THINK it is in the dies. The Lee just can't quite get there to properly set back the shoulder on fired brass, and it doesn't do the shoulder properly with the new brass, thus leading to the failure to seat properly.
I will try the dummy round with the new Starline just to eliminate another variable.
I have a set of Redding dies on the way courtesy of another member here.

[FISH4BUGS]

You might try making a dummy round with the Starline brass, but only bell the case mouth, seat and crimp one of your boolits. If it doesn't fully chamber your boolits might be just that much too big. GF

Maybe so, but they slide through the mouth of the cylinder just barely snug.....hardly any resistance at all.

[AlHunt]

That is exactly what I have done. I THINK it is in the dies. The Lee just can't quite get there to properly set back the shoulder on fired brass, and it doesn't do the shoulder properly with the new brass, thus leading to the failure to seat properly.
I will try the dummy round with the new Starline just to eliminate another variable.
I have a set of Redding dies on the way courtesy of another member here.

Does the shell holder contact the die? If so, file .020" off the bottom of the die. I have a set of Lee dies sold to me as 40 cal but they were 10mm and wouldn't seat/crimp the 40. Bench grinder and file solved that problem for me.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, the 32/20 WCF. I own 4 of them, and between the examples their respective chambers are like Duesenberg classic cars--"No Two Are Alike!" I have about 35 years with this enigmatic cartridge, and there is a definite learning curve to achieve success with it--esp. in revolvers.

First order of business--LOSE the R-P and W-W brass ASAP, and replace it with Starline. THIS is the single-largest upgrade a reloader can make with this cartridge.

Second--LOSE the Lee dies in this caliber, and replace with true full-length sizing dies that set the shoulder back to SAAMI specs. Shoulder placement in my 4 arms is all over the place, varying almost .100". Yes, those shoulders getting blown out and sized back will cause case stretch and need for trimming, but Starline does that less than did R-P and W-W. Case life isn't long, 10-12 reloads is about as good as it gets.

Third--revolver and rifle throat dimensions vary with this caliber, mine run from .312" to .314". 32/20s like 115-120 grain bullets a whole lot more IME than they do 95-100 grain bullets.

Fourth--Slower burn-rate powders like SR-4756 and Herco do better work in 32/20 revolvers than do the Bullseye/231-speed fuels. Hotter primers do better work, too--CCI #500 or WSP at minimum, and you might try SPMs like the CCI #550 if you are getting wide variance in velocities between shots.

Lastly--If you have access to the late Ken Waters' Pet Loads from Wolfe Publishing, he has an article dealing with the weirdnesses of the 32/20 in a revolver that is worth a read. It was originally published in Handloader magazine in the early 1980s.

HTH

[blue32]

The sizer is not setting the shoulder back far enough. I had to have a smith grind off a bit on the bottom of my RCBS sizer because it wasn't sizing the neck all the way down. I initially sent it to RCBS with a note on the problem and it was returned in the same condition with a note "in spec," whatever that is. Also loaded on a Dillon 550. You can only go so far until you bottom out on the shell plate and cam over. I needed .038" so had the smith take off .045" in case my measurements were a tad off. I can now size brass to fit my guns.

Unlike 9.3X62AL, I haven't had any problems with WW and RP as I trim everything to the Starline standard of 1.28". I settled on bullets sized to .312" but I only have Italian copies so you're S&W may need a .313".

[FISH4BUGS]

Ah, the 32/20 WCF. I own 4 of them, and between the examples their respective chambers are like Duesenberg classic cars--"No Two Are Alike!" I have about 35 years with this enigmatic cartridge, and there is a definite learning curve to achieve success with it--esp. in revolvers.

First order of business--LOSE the R-P and W-W brass ASAP, and replace it with Starline. THIS is the single-largest upgrade a reloader can make with this cartridge.

Second--LOSE the Lee dies in this caliber, and replace with true full-length sizing dies that set the shoulder back to SAAMI specs. Shoulder placement in my 4 arms is all over the place, varying almost .100". Yes, those shoulders getting blown out and sized back will cause case stretch and need for trimming, but Starline does that less than did R-P and W-W. Case life isn't long, 10-12 reloads is about as good as it gets.

Third--revolver and rifle throat dimensions vary with this caliber, mine run from .312" to .314". 32/20s like 115-120 grain bullets a whole lot more IME than they do 95-100 grain bullets.

Fourth--Slower burn-rate powders like SR-4756 and Herco do better work in 32/20 revolvers than do the Bullseye/231-speed fuels. Hotter primers do better work, too--CCI #500 or WSP at minimum, and you might try SPMs like the CCI #550 if you are getting wide variance in velocities between shots.

Lastly--If you have access to the late Ken Waters' Pet Loads from Wolfe Publishing, he has an article dealing with the weirdnesses of the 32/20 in a revolver that is worth a read. It was originally published in Handloader magazine in the early 1980s.

HTH

WE'RE NOT WORTHY.....WE'RE NOT WORTHY......(obscure movie reference)
I always defer to experience. Many thanks for the information.
Just a sit rep: I have a set of Hornaday dies coming and another gentleman offered another partial set of dies.
I guess they must have experienced the joys of the 32-20 also.
The Starline brass fits perfectly in the cylinder before sizing. Now i can safely say the other brass will be sold here.
The throat is .313" or thereabouts.
I may experiment first with WW231 ( I keep my powder choices simple - ww231, ww296, ww748).
I don't think this will be a target gun. I just want to be able to hit what I am aiming at and shoot it a lot.
I truly appreciate the workmanship of those days and most of my shooters are like that. PLUS the fun (sure......) of figuring this out.
I have a bunch of the 120 gr cast to load, and will cast after that.
I will NOT allow this to beat me.
This gun is a prime example of a high quality workmanship gun and i am going to cast and reload for it, and shoot the daylights out of it!

[Outpost75]

WE'RE NOT WORTHY.....WE'RE NOT WORTHY......(obscure movie reference)
I always defer to experience. Many thanks for the information.
Just a sit rep: I have a set of Hornaday dies coming and another gentleman offered another partial set of dies.
I guess they must have experienced the joys of the 32-20 also.
The Starline brass fits perfectly in the cylinder before sizing. Now i can safely say the other brass will be sold here.
The throat is .313" or thereabouts.
I may experiment first with WW231 ( I keep my powder choices simple - ww231, ww296, ww748).
I don't think this will be a target gun. I just want to be able to hit what I am aiming at and shoot it a lot.
I truly appreciate the workmanship of those days and most of my shooters are like that. PLUS the fun (sure......) of figuring this out.
I have a bunch of the 120 gr cast to load, and will cast after that.
I will NOT allow this to beat me.
This gun is a prime example of a high quality workmanship gun and i am going to cast and reload for it, and shoot the daylights out of it!

231 is a great choice. Not sure whether your 120-grainer will shoot to the sights, my guess is that it will strike high, because factory ammo in .32-20 is generally 100 grains. A charge of 3.5 grains of 231 with 100-105-grain soft lead FN bullet similar to Accurate 31-105T closely approximates factory velocity. A mild, but accurate load.

Your 1930 revolver is heat treated, so you can safe;y increase the charge a bit if you want flatter shooting for field work.
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) on p.245 lists 4 grains as max. with 100-grain Saeco #326 at 1.535" OAL at 15,800 psi.
I use the similar 98-grain #325 bullet without the bevel base.

[square butte]

I would certainly not get rid of your Winchester and RP brass. I think your new dies are gonna make that brass perfectly useable. You may have to make some minor adjustments in your procedure for each head stamp.

[FISH4BUGS]

I would certainly not get rid of your Winchester and RP brass. I think your new dies are gonna make that brass perfectly useable. You may have to make some minor adjustments in your procedure for each head stamp.

Good point. I have 2 sets of dies coming. One should work just fine.....I am hopeful anyway.
32-20 brass is not easy to come by even though Starline makes it. No telling when their next run will be.

[garandsrus]

When I first started reloading 32-20, Starline brass was recommended to me also. The case necks are a little thicker so less prone to getting mangled. I went with that recommendations and have been very happy.

I have had to grind the bottom portion off of a couple dies so that they would set the shoulder correctly. I don’t remember which brand or caliber. It was just a minor inconvenience. I would have ground down the shell plate, but I am loading on a Dillon also so that’s not an option.

To add another wrinkle in the 32-20’s history, Thompson Center Contenders (which is what I have, along with a Marlin LA) have a .308 bore size so are really 30-20’s. Redding makes a 30-20 die set that works great. The dies are pricy but I found a set on an auction sight at a good price.

[tward]

I have 3 32-20s. A Colt Police Positive Special, a Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector of 1905 and a Contender Bbl. Starline brass is great and I’ve had good luck with 100 gr Swc sized .313. The Contender turns the 32-20 into a monster, think 30 cal carbine. I’ve had fun running some heavy cast boolits thru the contender. Keep at it , it’s a fun little caliber. Tim

[FISH4BUGS]

Sorry to not post about the 32-20 saga for a while - work is getting in the way of all this reloading fun.
OK...so here is where we are at present. I did NOT do the candle thing - I was a bit touchy about putting a burning candle on a loaded round. So I used a Sharpie to color the loaded round and force it into the cylinder.
Very interesting result - the area just below the crimp was scraped clean.
So here is what I will do - I will back off the belling a bit and see if that will help. I THINK that might help.
I also wonder if a Lee Factory Crimp die would help - seat and crimp in 2 separate steps.
I'll post when I get back to this.
Many thanks for all the advice.

[david s]

It's possible to over crimp your loads. This will leave a "muffin top" look. Sort of a half round look. Maybe back off your crimp die a little bit and see if that helps. With the Dillon 550 press's it generally recommended to seat and crimp in different dies.

[MT Gianni]

I have found my old calipers to be off as much as 0.001" when measuring diameters. Stick with 0.313" and back off the crimp until the bullets don't move with a very light pressure.

[Green Frog]

I hate to suggest even more dies, but in the past I have found Lyman dies to be cut to the tightest specifications. I haven’t tried it with my 32-20 because I’m still acquiring brass, but I’d guess if you have min-spec chambers, a tight sizing die might be in order.

Froggie

[rintinglen]

A LEE FCD is certainly your friend here. I use one for 32-20 and 44-40, and my nines and 38's get crimped by Dillon's crimp die after the boolits are seated.

[ddixie884]

I'm very interested in your journey into .32-20 loading and am following this thread closely........

[garandsrus]

So here is what I will do - I will back off the belling a bit and see if that will help. I THINK that might help.


The bell on the case mouth should be removed by the crimp die so reducing the bell prior to seating the bullet shouldn't help you at all. It may cause you to shave the side of the bullet when loading.

As was said, you may be over crimping. You may also be under crimping! Seat a few bullets without crimping and then use those rounds to set the crimping portion of the die. Keep turning it in until the rounds chamber correctly. You will need to back off the seating stem, of course.

[garandsrus]

So here is what I will do - I will back off the belling a bit and see if that will help. I THINK that might help.


The bell on the case mouth should be removed by the crimp die so reducing the bell prior to seating the bullet shouldn't help you at all. It may cause you to shave the side of the bullet when loading.

As was said, you may be over crimping. You may also be under crimping! Seat a few bullets without crimping and then use those rounds to set the crimping portion of the die. Keep turning it in until the rounds chamber correctly. You will need to back off the seating stem, of course.

[FISH4BUGS]

The bell on the case mouth should be removed by the crimp die so reducing the bell prior to seating the bullet shouldn't help you at all. It may cause you to shave the side of the bullet when loading.
As was said, you may be over crimping. You may also be under crimping! Seat a few bullets without crimping and then use those rounds to set the crimping portion of the die. Keep turning it in until the rounds chamber correctly. You will need to back off the seating stem, of course.

So here is the tentative solution....I backed off on the belling of the case mouth. It appears that the mixed fired (but primed) cases that I received had been belled too much and even if I resized them loaded and crimped them, the belling seemed to have remained behind just a bit....apparently just enough to hang up in the cylinder when I load them. Maybe just a few thousandths below the case mouth was just too fat to seat fully in the cylinder.
I took NEW Starline cases and loaded them after I backed off the belling just a bit. (120gr cast w/ 3.6 ww231) When run through the Dillon 550 and crimped right at the crimp groove, the cases fall right into the cylinder. It would appear this 32-20 is very sensitive to the amount of belling of the case mouth.
I located a LEE Factory Crimp Die and it is on the way. I think seating and crimping in a separate step will help maintain that consistency I need.
I'll take those cases that were belled (I got some 100 primed cases in the batch of goodies I received - those seemed to be the problem) and crimp them down and start over with them. Right now I have about 200 new Starline cases to work with.
Using the new Starline cases showed me that was the problem.
I think if i make very small adjustments to the amount of belling of the case mouth, then back off just a tiny bit when they start to hang up when I load them into the cylinder, I would be good to go. These have very little belling, if any. I load slowly and make sure the bullets are set right into the case so they don't shave.
I will load 50 and take them to the range this afternoon.
I THINK I have resolved the issue.
We will see.
But I am cautiously optimistic that I have resolved it.
Many thanks to everyone that weighed in.
That is the beauty of this site....all this knowledge and people willing to share.
THANK YOU!

[FISH4BUGS]

The 32-20 performed like a champ. I did not rest it to see how well it would shoot, rather i was trying to break clay pigeons at 50 yards....and once in a while I did.
Bullet is 120gr flat nose cast, 3.6 gr ww231, small pistol primers, NEW Starline Brass.
Minimal case mouth belling. Almost no crimp.
Minimal recoil and smoke. Primers not the least bit flattened.
I think I have found my plinking load....first try out of the chute.
What is amazing is the double action trigger pull.
That kind of factory workmanship they had in the 20's and 30's just doesn't exist any longer.
Give me a Colt or S&W made in the 20's and 30's anytime. I can truly appreciate the workmanship.
I am looking forward to shooting this one a LOT!
...and thanks to all for the tips.

[FISH4BUGS]

My hat is off to the Lee Factory Crimp die. That made all the difference in the world.
Perfect crimp right in the crimp groove.
Even the cases that had been primed get run through the crimp die which gets rid of the excessive belling, which was really the cause of all this. The combination seater/crimper die just didn't cut it.
800 new Starline cases on the way.
I can see a manic loading session or two coming up!
3.6 gr WW231 and 120gr cast makes a nice little plinking load.

[david s]

Interesting journey to a nice place to be. Having put in the extra effort to sort out the problems I bet you'll enjoy this even more.

[FISH4BUGS]

Interesting journey to a nice place to be. Having put in the extra effort to sort out the problems I bet you'll enjoy this even more.

I loaded 100 rounds last night and will hopefully test all them out this weekend.
They all slide into the cylinder with ease.
The problem really was overbelling the case mouth (even with just a small amount) and not being able to remove it with the seat/crimp die.
Thank goodness for the LEE Factory crimp die!

[FISH4BUGS]

Shot 100 rounds at steel plates at 15 yards last night.
Knocked 'em all down just fine.
This S&W is one sweet shooting gun.
DA is as smooth as butter.
That kind of workmanship is simply not there any more.
Robert, thanks for the sale! This is quickly becoming my favorite gun.