hi all, newbie here, info for browning 71 to 50-100-450 wanted

[hard88cast]

Hi all. Long time lurker first time joining and posting. little about me. My favorite firearms are my 86 win 45-70 and 45-90, both antiques, i reload both and have taken many whitetails with both but other then that I am a newbie to working on leverguns but have extensive experience in building and working on semi auto older military rifles.
I gold prospect here in Montana and find myself not being able to concentrate on my prospecting or just staying away from some of the best gold prospecting areas because of the ever present Grizzly population.
Of course I wear a pistol but that isnt the protection that makes me feel comfortable so I just purchased a browning model 71 in 348 that i would like to make into a 50-100-450 short rifle.
Would like to do 1/2 octagon barrel.

Cant seem to find dies at this time but sounds as if they are usually available.
This rifle is designed for a 50' and under shooter. Hoping for a moderate recoiling 500 gr slug at 1700-1800fps.
Anyway this is a project I have been thinking about for a long time but really dont know much about this process so any help and tips are much appreciated.
Looking for somewhat tech info on parts that need to be whittled down in order to make the case function properly.
I noticed back in 2019 John Taylor posted a little about this process but have been unable to contact him due to his inbox is full.
Thanks

thank you

[indian joe]

Hi all. Long time lurker first time joining and posting. little about me. My favorite firearms are my 86 win 45-70 and 45-90, both antiques, i reload both and have taken many whitetails with both but other then that I am a newbie to working on leverguns but have extensive experience in building and working on semi auto older military rifles.
I gold prospect here in Montana and find myself not being able to concentrate on my prospecting or just staying away from some of the best gold prospecting areas because of the ever present Grizzly population.
Of course I wear a pistol but that isnt the protection that makes me feel comfortable so I just purchased a browning model 71 in 348 that i would like to make into a 50-100-450 short rifle.
Would like to do 1/2 octagon barrel.

Cant seem to find dies at this time but sounds as if they are usually available.
This rifle is designed for a 50' and under shooter. Hoping for a moderate recoiling 500 gr slug at 1700-1800fps.
Anyway this is a project I have been thinking about for a long time but really dont know much about this process so any help and tips are much appreciated.
Looking for somewhat tech info on parts that need to be whittled down in order to make the case function properly.
I noticed back in 2019 John Taylor posted a little about this process but have been unable to contact him due to his inbox is full.
Thanks

thank you

moderate recoiling 500grain slug at 1800FPS out of a 7.5 pound rifle ????????????????????

I have a Browning model 71 in 348 .......would rate it moderate recoiling as is

If you going in Grizzly country one thing you need to do
get rid of the stupid firing pin with its little spring loaded safety blocker bits

my rifle is one of the first run of these, it has a proper half cock notch - no lawyer safety - so it was easy to convert it over to solid firing pin - It had done maybe 400 rounds, had sat in the rack a fair bit, and I took it out one day and fail to fire !!! not a problem with an angry bean can but not a good plan with an incoming bear.

there is a rebound spring ahead of the firing pin that I left in but it should have come out too, the ears on the lever retract the firing pin off the primer like a proper 86 is designed to do so that spring is just more lawyer baloney - dont need to be there. (gun works fine so I leave it be for now)

If you google this conversion there is a fair bit of stuff comes up - magazine mods - cartridge lifter - I think I would go for the 50 Alaskan - case is a tad shorter, brass more available, less problems ?

[pietro]

.

Welcome to the board ! :-)

As stated, the .50 Alaskan is the Gold Standard for .348/M-71 conversion - because it gets a lot easier due to being based on the .348 cartridge.

.

[Harleysboss]

Wondering if JES Reboring in Oregon could do it? He lists 50 Alaskan on his web site. I had him do a 38-55. Nice work shoots great. Worth a call.

[dverna]

Why not leave it in .348?

If buying for bear protection, a Mossberg 500 is cheap and effective up close.

[indian joe]

Wondering if JES Reboring in Oregon could do it? He lists 50 Alaskan on his web site. I had him do a 38-55. Nice work shoots great. Worth a call.

my B71 measures .632 at the muzzle - thats gonna be awful skinny after a rebore - would be real interested in whether or nor he would do that.?

[Shawlerbrook]

Regan Nonneman will do the 50 Alaskan conversion.

[pietro]

my B71 measures .632 at the muzzle - thats gonna be awful skinny after a rebore - would be real interested in whether or nor he would do that.?

Most re-borers, Jes included, will only do a re-bore that leaves a minimum barrel wall thickness of .125" @ the muzzle.

.458" + .125" + .125" = .708" minimum muzzle O.D. for a rebore to .458".

For a re-bore that I had Jes do to make a .35 cal from a .308" cal rifle with .500" muzzle O.D., I had to cut the barrel shorter to the point that the muzzle O.D. was acceptable for a re-bore to .35.

.

[hard88cast]

hi folks, thanks for responding.
indian Joe, my 71 is an early one, close to #0350. Has a typical 1/3 cock lever safety. I am not familiar with the firing pin issue you mention. Ive tried to find blow up schematics on this rifle I can actually read on line but no luck so far. More info is appreciated.

Ive emailed noneman a month ago and no response.
Jes got back to me but I am looking for a new barrel anyway and he says he doesnt sell new barrels..

Sure a shotgun is great, not the energy of a 50cal load though, plus i need something new to reload for and a new rifle to tinker with, plus ive always wanted to do this conversion.

You guys may be right, maybe i should go with the 50alaskan, i can find dies for that cartridge(a month ago), really just wanted the 50-100 to be the big brother to my 45-90, keep it all in the family so to speak, sentimental reasoning lol.

[hard88cast]

Is there less internal receiver work with the Alaskan or basically all the same amount.
I want to do the majority of the work myself just need to find out what that entails.

Would like to buy a complete barrel including all dovetails and an 11deg crown. Not sure were to buy that from. There is a website called "winchesterbarrels.com" i talked with him and he says he can build a barrel and it will "time" perfectly without having to send my receiver to him, That doesn't seem possible to me. Any thoughts on this?

[John Taylor]

The inside of the action needs some work. The feed rails need about .020" removed, I usually take a bit off each one.I ended up using an 86 left rail that meant the bolt had to be relieved to clear. The lever need the end shaved down at an angle so the loading gate will open a little more. The inside of the frame needs to be opened up on the right side to allow the fat cartridge into the mag tube ( the 50 Alaskan may not need this). The carrier needs to be opened up for the larger body diameter ( rim diameter is close to the same as 45-70). Bottom edge of chamber needs to be rounded and polished. Chamber should also be polished. Nose of the bullet has to be close to the same as the 50 EX, some short jacketed round nose bullets work.
The 50 Alaskan will do the same as the 50-100 power wise using smokeless powder and is a bit easier to do the conversion. The 50 EX brass can be shortened for the Alaskan. Hope this helps

[John Taylor]

https://www.gmriflebarrel.com/wl86-50-50-express-cal-29-tapered-octagon-blank/
Twist is for the 300 grain bullet.

[hard88cast]

hi john taylor, thanks for chiming in and work description. I have looked at those green mtn barrels but think they only do 1-54 twist, im looking for somewhere around 1-20 for heavier longer slugs but have not decided yet on what twist will work the best..

Just found a 1-24 twist at green mtn. Its says chrome molly 4140 barrel but it also says BPCR barrel...

Actually would like to find a completed barrel, will call them and see if they do a complete barrel.
thanks

[Jim22]

If it were me I would try to find a 71 in either 450 Alaskan or 50 Alaskan and try shooting it. I have not tried the 50 Alaskan but I did fire Bud Leibing's 450 Alaskan in Palmer, AK. It bent my nose over almost til it bled. It was my thumb that hit my nose. There is something about those 71 stocks that causes that. I have fired many other hard recoiling rifles. I have owned two in .458 Win. and one in .416 Rem.. When I lived up there I regularly hunted with a Sako in .338 Win.. So I don't think I was overly sensitive to recoil. Just bent noses.

[hard88cast]

hi jim22, you definitely have the recoil game on me with the 458s and 416. Thanks for the thoughts. Im building this cause i can, if its too much for me I will just use a 12ga with slugs. But thats the good thing about reloading, i can dial it in for what is comfortable for me. AND,,,,,i just need to build this rifle and get it out of my thought process. 35yrs of dreamin on this subject its about time i get over it and do something about it.
thanks

[missionary5155]

Good morning
We have two 50 Alaskan rifles. One is a 86 (jap) 26' Octagon that we had JES rebore near 10 years ago and it turned out an excellent shooter and great for a sit and wait rifle.
The other is a mid range # Browning 71 that was rebarreled (we bought it here) 22" barrel and makes into an excellent "stalking" type. Also a 50 Alaskan.
50 Alaskan brass / dies are far more available and affordable.
Your desire to launch 500 grainers at 1850 is easily done and with a proper recoil pad and not sitting / laying behind a rifle at a bench is no real issue. I weighed myself yesterday and came out a whopping 139 pounds. I shoot your goal regular sitting on my padded part and roll with those big monsters. Our plinkers are a 400 grain FNGC at 1650 fps and will thwap any critter onto the dinner table I have ever been near.
So charge ahead. I do recommend rebarrel as it is cheaper and keep your original barrel for the rifle. Our 71 has both barrels.
If you need any more info ask away.. Happy to help you down this trail...

[John Taylor]

Forgot about the recoil part, one customer sent his gun back to have a shotgun stile butt stock made for it. While my rifle has a 30" octagon barrel I have not finished it yet so don't know how hard it is going to kick. The chamber is 50 EX and the barrel is marked 50-100. I think I did this one with a 1-28 twist.

[hard88cast]

Missionary5155. Good morning, thanks so much for chiming in on this. I will definitely be asking more questions.

Do you have any guidance on barrel twist for launching 400+ grainers?

Bullet company to get those boolits with gas checks? (coated boolits w/gas checks would be ideal).

Powder to be looking for reloading those big ole thwrappers?

is the alaskan chamber/rifling designed for lead .512" boolits?

thanks very much

[444ttd]

bullet companies are

https://bullshop.weebly.com/-50-caliber-cast-bullets.html

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product-category/pistol/

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=90

https://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm (he doesn't do email or phone calls, he does boolits)

http://www.moyerscastbullets.com/rifle_bullets/rifle_bullets_pricelist


and yes the 50 alaskan is .510" rifling. i have a tc encore with 23" MGM barrel in 500 Linebaugh and 450gr lfn gc(.512" boolit) and hs-7 or 2400.

[hard88cast]

444ttd, thanks for the great links ,info and powder recommendation.
missionary5155, yes i am looking for a new finished barrel.

[indian joe]

hi folks, thanks for responding.
indian Joe, my 71 is an early one, close to #0350. Has a typical 1/3 cock lever safety. I am not familiar with the firing pin issue you mention. Ive tried to find blow up schematics on this rifle I can actually read on line but no luck so far. More info is appreciated.

Ive emailed noneman a month ago and no response.
Jes got back to me but I am looking for a new barrel anyway and he says he doesnt sell new barrels..

Sure a shotgun is great, not the energy of a 50cal load though, plus i need something new to reload for and a new rifle to tinker with, plus ive always wanted to do this conversion.

You guys may be right, maybe i should go with the 50alaskan, i can find dies for that cartridge(a month ago), really just wanted the 50-100 to be the big brother to my 45-90, keep it all in the family so to speak, sentimental reasoning lol.

286808 (windows media player file)
Japchester firing pin

23 is the rebound spring - goes in first - over the striker part of the firing pin. I left this in but in mine it serves NO useful purpose, the ears on the lever retract the firing pin off of the primer just like an original

the little bit with the leg up and leg down was the offender and perhaps if I pulled the bolt and gave it a good soak in degreaser may have fixed the problem. the leg up engages in a groove in the internals of the bolt (spring loaded) allowing the leg down to form a block in the innards of the pin and that carries the strike through to the firing pin from the floating bit at the back that the hammer strikes . I got rid of the tricky little pieces and turned a piece of a drill shank to convert it to solid - a bit of filing at the back to get correct engagement with the hammer. If I was carrying this rifle in bear country (we dont have bears) i would do this for mod sure.

[hard88cast]

indian joe, thanks for the follow up. Cant open that media file here at work, will check it out once i get home.

[JFE]

If it were me I would try to find a 71 in either 450 Alaskan or 50 Alaskan and try shooting it. I have not tried the 50 Alaskan but I did fire Bud Leibing's 450 Alaskan in Palmer, AK. It bent my nose over almost til it bled. It was my thumb that hit my nose. There is something about those 71 stocks that causes that. I have fired many other hard recoiling rifles. I have owned two in .458 Win. and one in .416 Rem.. When I lived up there I regularly hunted with a Sako in .338 Win.. So I don't think I was overly sensitive to recoil. Just bent noses.

It’s a poor stock design.

When Winchester switched from the long tang to the short tang version a few years after they introduced the Model 71, they also pushed the nose of the comb forward. Why they did that is a mystery. When Browning made their run of rifles they duplicated the short tang design, along with the longer comb stock.

I found the stock design of the B-71 quite uncomfortable to use as it positioned my hand too close to my nose. I eventually turned my 71 over to a local stock maker who altered the stock by pushing the comb back and restyling the comb for a more comfortable grip. It now handles recoil a lot better.

[John Taylor]

Several years ago I did a four barrel setup on an 1886 takedown. One of the barrels was 348 and the owner sent me some Buffalo bore ammo to test it. The action locked up and it was difficult to get it open after firing. I asked the customer if he had some Winchester ammo and he supplied several rounds. The gun worked perfect with the Winchester ammo but that's not what this post is about. The 1886 had a crescent butt plate and the customer said the 50-110 hurt to shoot so he sent it back for a shotgun stile butt stock. Seems several customers complain about the crescent butt plate when it comes to recoil.

[farmbif]

bighornarmory makes some very nice big bore lever guns

[hard88cast]

yes those crescent stocks do make a guy flinch. For me the crescent stock means "Winchester", So when I am admiring my rifles i like the true antique stock look. When I am shooting my antiques i put on a sissy pad for myself. Makes a heck of a difference.

I have thought about bighorn, but have yet to hold one, stock looks very straight in pictures, to straight for me. So would have to find one to actually hold before making a decision on that.

[hard88cast]

indian joe. My b71 is under 400 serial#, has a solid 1/2 cock safety. You mentioned a couple times about the funky firing pin set up. No, i have not taken mine apart. But should be sending my rifle to gunsmith shortly and would like to correct any funky lawyer firing pin issues while he has it so doing homework.
You mentioned drill rod(seems soft to me) replacement for some parts, did you remove that up/down part completely?
Did you happen to find an aftermarket fix for this.
thanks

[pietro]

.

FWIW, for pins I use the shank of an appropriately-sized sacrificial drill bit, ground to length (they are hardened, so cannot be easily cut)

[indian joe]

indian joe. My b71 is under 400 serial#, has a solid 1/2 cock safety. You mentioned a couple times about the funky firing pin set up. No, i have not taken mine apart. But should be sending my rifle to gunsmith shortly and would like to correct any funky lawyer firing pin issues while he has it so doing homework.
You mentioned drill rod(seems soft to me) replacement for some parts, did you remove that up/down part completely?
Did you happen to find an aftermarket fix for this.
thanks

Winchester Bob and one other place was advertising a solid firing pin for a tad over $30 - doesnt work for me - importing gun parts to the land downunder is just the biggest pain - paperwork is ridiculous and most suppliers in the US wont sell to us anyway
I did same as Pietro - use a tungsten tool you can turn the shank end of a drill - its good tough steel but not brittle.- but I would check out the ready made one first.

[indian joe]

286808 (windows media player file)
Japchester firing pin

23 is the rebound spring - goes in first - over the striker part of the firing pin. I left this in but in mine it serves NO useful purpose, the ears on the lever retract the firing pin off of the primer just like an original

the little bit with the leg up and leg down was the offender and perhaps if I pulled the bolt and gave it a good soak in degreaser may have fixed the problem. the leg up engages in a groove in the internals of the bolt (spring loaded) allowing the leg down to form a block in the innards of the pin and that carries the strike through to the firing pin from the floating bit at the back that the hammer strikes . I got rid of the tricky little pieces and turned a piece of a drill shank to convert it to solid - a bit of filing at the back to get correct engagement with the hammer. If I was carrying this rifle in bear country (we dont have bears) i would do this for mod sure.

lookin for hard88cast
290314
this is part I replaced with drill shank
#chose one just a tad over size of the outer barrel of the firing pin
#carefully turned a smaller diameter to fit inside the barrel of the old pin sos its hard up agin the front and at the same time a shoulder is full diameter at the back end protruding the same distance as the floating bit used to (about 85 thou) - this is careful delicate machining and it needs to be right, you want impact transferred solidly to the body of the firing pin through the rear shoulder and also at the front end of this insert piece
#red loctite to hold it
so you have some spare bits 1)the floating rear piece you just replaced 2) a little spring from in front of that bit - makes a dandy coil handspring for a replica colt capgun 3) the little dog leggy piece that caused the lockup 4) retaining pin for that last bit .
290316
If Winchester Bobs replacement will fit (I reckon it should) is a better idea for sure

[hard88cast]

Indian Joe,thanks for the pics. Tried win bob on friday and couldnt get him. Will try next week.
Win Bob doesnt know if his win 71 firing pins will work in the blr71 but I think the cost is worth a try.

[Snowyone]

I'm another looking to convert a Browning Model 71 to a 50 Alaskan. Not going to use it to shoot gophers but think it has it's place crawling around the brush on the Islands of PWS looking for deer and maybe a bear. I know recoil will be substantial but hope Magnaporting and a Limbsaver will tame it enough so it doesn't break my nose(its big enough all ready). Want to go with a shorter barrel like 22" to go with the guns natural balance, ease of getting on target in the dense brush, and its packability. I've tried to contact anyone who would be interested in doing so and thus far no ones been excited about doing it. Two have said its a lot of work and to expect 8 to 9 months waiting period. Mine is a Browning and don't figure I'm ruining its ascetics but turning it into something I'm happy with on my adventures.

[Rick B]

Contact John Taylor about your 50 Alaskan conversion. He posted earlier on this same thread.
Rick

[.45Cole]

I think most of the guys here are leading you down a good path, the 71 was modified from the 1886 and one of the modifications was the action; you can't get a 71 to feed 50-110 without *some* work. So if it is a 50-110 you're after I think you would be ahead to pony up for a 45-70 1886 and take it to 50-110, it's not like owning a 50-110 will be cheap anyways. If it's a big thumper on the 71 action you desire, then a 50 alaskan should kick enough.
If you just want something for bear protection I'd think bear spray would keep you panning easier, but if your deterrent needs to go bang then the shotgun or a win 100 in .358. The 100 is the ultimate *levergun* albeit it is an auto but nearly identical to the 88, Winchester's last lever.

[hard88cast]

Hi 45cole
conversion is already a long time underway from a smith on this site. Im hoping its almost done. Smith did need to find a 45-70 part though, good call on that.
I carry spray, pistol and long rifle at mining camp, kodiaks in alaska or lower 48 grizz if there is time its going to be a 50cal 500gr slug at 2000ftsec. My opinion is that spray will "not stop" a "completely committed" bear from mauling you. Most all charges are false charges though and have had many of those, spray works great for that. Thanks for chiming in.

[Rick B]

Whats the latest word on your 50-110 conversion
Rick

[hard88cast]

Hi Rick
Well things seem to be going along well. Recd
a pic of my 22" 1/2 octagon 1\2 round barrel, looked really sweet. Finally got a hold of Winchester bob and bought a win 71 firing pin, we will have to wait and see if it will work or not.
And the best news is my smith just let me know the parts were being sent out for bluing. Now that's good news.....
I also decided to forgo the crescent butt and bought a pad and shipped it to the smith, he says that is done also.
So looks like we are on the downhill slide right now and I need to come up with some loads.
Rick ,I very much appreciate all the tutoring on shooting black powder that you gave me, but as a newbie to black powder it seems real confusing to me and smokeless is so easy. So I need to come up with some smokeless loads first. Hopefully I can find some powder that will let me fill the case without using fillers.
Going to write a post soon and list all the powders I have and see if anyone has a load for any of them. Been trying to find 3031 but haven't seen any around for two years up here. I do look forward to my 50 belching bp smoke soon.
I know I've been really quiet on this subject, its the only way to have patience while waiting the build out��

[indian joe]

Hi Rick
Well things seem to be going along well. Recd
a pic of my 22" 1/2 octagon 1\2 round barrel, looked really sweet. Finally got a hold of Winchester bob and bought a win 71 firing pin, we will have to wait and see if it will work or not.
And the best news is my smith just let me know the parts were being sent out for bluing. Now that's good news.....
I also decided to forgo the crescent butt and bought a pad and shipped it to the smith, he says that is done also.
So looks like we are on the downhill slide right now and I need to come up with some loads.
Rick ,I very much appreciate all the tutoring on shooting black powder that you gave me, but as a newbie to black powder it seems real confusing to me and smokeless is so easy. So I need to come up with some smokeless loads first. Hopefully I can find some powder that will let me fill the case without using fillers.
Going to write a post soon and list all the powders I have and see if anyone has a load for any of them. Been trying to find 3031 but haven't seen any around for two years up here. I do look forward to my 50 belching bp smoke soon.
I know I've been really quiet on this subject, its the only way to have patience while waiting the build out��

funny how we all think different based on previous experience
if that was my cannon the very first load I fired in it would be a duplex load ...10 grains of 4227 on the primer + fill it up with FFg blackpowder (the real stuff NOT any subs) + about a quarter inch compression + a 45 thou poly wad (HDPE is what I can get and it works) + boolit of choice - I would come back grinning and likely never feel the need to try anything else in it.

That would give you the best of both worlds and be the easiest, simplest, start load ..............................shoot clean until you got sick of it, decent velocity, lots of smoke, safe as houses.

Do some research while you wait - take NO notice of the naysayers. they will have zero experience with actually doing it.

forgot -----decent lube grooves on the boolit and proper blackpowder lube (50/50 beeswax and some kind of natural oil is a good place to start)

[hard88cast]

Indian joe,,,
Any idea what kind of velocity can I get out of a load like that? 450-500gr boolits.


Would that velocity be adjustable by the amount of smokeless put on the primer?

When Rick introduced me to the thought of BP I went to my local shop and they had NO ffg or wads, and smpowder types are really hard to find around here.

How touchy is the type of smpowder used when only using 10gr or so? Haven't seen that powder you mention in years around here.
Think I have some 110, 4198 and 5744 plus some faster stuff like blue dot and longshot.

Where can I get these wads, ffg? (And you do mean ffg,correct)

A very gracious CB member that lives fairly close to me sent me some awesome 480gr cast boolits to try out as my first load, lubed very well. Actually chambered the rifle to fit this round and Barnes 450 jacketed that I reloaded dummy rds and sent off with the rifle.

And lastly when I was going thru all the literature Rick sent me on bp, I read that I had to clean the barrel, sometimes "between shots" and worst of all in my mind had to clean with "water", that thru me over the deep end, putting water in my brand new barrel.
That goes against everything my brain considers when caring for carbon steel.

[Rick B]

Glad to hear your project is nearing completion. Large volume cases of the Pre 1900's vintage, work best with BP. Duplexing with a small amount of smokeless eliminates wiping the bore between shots. With regards to shooting BP in a levergun, fouling management is critical. A pull through system would prevent fluids and sludge from dropping into the action. It would exit out the muzzle instead. A well constructed pull through string with a 8-32 brass female termination would allow one to use a 50 caliber nylon brush threaded into the 8-32 brass termination. Using 2 1/4"-2 1/2 patch with a hole punched in the middle. Would allow a shooter to unscrew the brush and slip the patch over the male threads of the brush. Screw the brush back into the pull through string thereby capturing the patch. Slow but very effective. Two small containers with pre lubed cleaning patches and your favorite oil would make for a very lightweight field kit. There are many formula's available on the internet for cleaning black powder fouling. Black Powder fouling salts are neutralized by water. A combination of one part Ballistol and two parts water, makes a very good BP cleaning solution.

Buffalo Arms in Idaho has a large selection of vegetable fiber and poly wads.
Rick

PS IMR 4759 is the preferred smokeless duplexing powder. Unfortunately is was discontinued 5-6 years ago.

[hard88cast]

Hi Rick, nice to hear from you, thanks for chiming in..I went to my sporting good store this morning and no wads and no ffg. But they did have 4227 (i cant believe it) also cant believe powder is $45. any more and primers are .10..
Ok you guys sold me, what wads should i get, will they say 50cal wads?
vegetable or poly?

10gr 4227 on the primer+ ffg compressed under a wad 1/4" and all measured with dial veneers, correct?

I really like your idea of putting a small hole in the 2 1/2" patch then screwing the brush on, great idea!

"Two small containers with pre lubed cleaning patches"---Do you mean pre lubed with Ballistol and water?

I assume this--"GOEX Olde Eynsford 2-F Black Powder" is the same as ffg? (not in stock)Still searching for black powder.

thanks

[JFE]

With the 480gr cast bullets you have, are they gaschecked or plain base? Also, what is their diameter?

If they’re plain base you should keep your loads below 1400fps, as a higher velocity may cause leading.

The 50/110 case is huge and I would strongly suggest using a magnum primer.

If you want to start with mild loads using smokeless, Trailboss is an excellent choice. Trailboss loads are a lot of fun to use. I’m working on some subsonic loads for a 50/90 (this case is slightly larger than the 50/110). Recoil is mild and the noise level is low. This is a great way to get familiar with your rifle.

Assuming your cast bullets are up to it, at the other end of the power spectrum, powders like H-4895 are very flexible and can provide good velocities. It’s an easy powder to ignite powder but still use a magnum primer. I’ve had incomplete combustion and hang fires using a standard primer and I can assure you that was no fun at all. You need to provide enough spark in such a large case. I have heard good things about Reloader-15 but not tried it myself.

Finally, high velocity loads are not that much fun to shoot. The rifle is capable of huge power, but leverguns generally aren’t the best choice for those recoil levels. I think you will be very happy that your smith talked you out of a crescent butt stock.

[indian joe]

Indian joe,,,
Any idea what kind of velocity can I get out of a load like that? 450-500gr boolits.


Would that velocity be adjustable by the amount of smokeless put on the primer?

When Rick introduced me to the thought of BP I went to my local shop and they had NO ffg or wads, and smpowder types are really hard to find around here.

How touchy is the type of smpowder used when only using 10gr or so? Haven't seen that powder you mention in years around here.
Think I have some 110, 4198 and 5744 plus some faster stuff like blue dot and longshot.

Where can I get these wads, ffg? (And you do mean ffg,correct)

A very gracious CB member that lives fairly close to me sent me some awesome 480gr cast boolits to try out as my first load, lubed very well. Actually chambered the rifle to fit this round and Barnes 450 jacketed that I reloaded dummy rds and sent off with the rifle.

And lastly when I was going thru all the literature Rick sent me on bp, I read that I had to clean the barrel, sometimes "between shots" and worst of all in my mind had to clean with "water", that thru me over the deep end, putting water in my brand new barrel.
That goes against everything my brain considers when caring for carbon steel.

I use 7 grains 4227 and 63 grains FFFg in a 45/70 under a 335 grain boolit and get just a touch over 1500fps - careful load assembly gets extreme spread in the single digit range (6 to 10 FPS spread for a ten shot string fired without cleaning between shots)

for duplex you want a medium burn rate powder (H4227, SR4759, AR2205 - stay away from fast stuff)

Wads? I cut my own from old HDPE poly water jugs - LDPE is what the experts recommend but I cant source it downunder - I reckon you want wads neat in the case neck, I cut .460 and resize boolits .459 (gun is a Chiappa 1886)

Room temperature water with a drop of dish soap - cleaning is really easy, brush or wet patches and a flush bottle - then run a couple of dry patches through (till one comes out squeaky dry) a WD40 patch then an oil patch - sounds complicated but its not - I have a wood cradle to sit the gun belly up and muzzle downhill, use a cleaning rod with a proper tapered muzzle protector on it, can have one of my big lever guns clean and dry in five minutes.

only problem with all this is can you see the bear for a second shot through the smoke cloud? - a cold damp morning along a river bottom there will be a big smoke cloud.

[indian joe]

Glad to hear your project is nearing completion. Large volume cases of the Pre 1900's vintage, work best with BP. Duplexing with a small amount of smokeless eliminates wiping the bore between shots. With regards to shooting BP in a levergun, fouling management is critical. A pull through system would prevent fluids and sludge from dropping into the action. It would exit out the muzzle instead. A well constructed pull through string with a 8-32 brass female termination would allow one to use a 50 caliber nylon brush threaded into the 8-32 brass termination. Using 2 1/4"-2 1/2 patch with a hole punched in the middle. Would allow a shooter to unscrew the brush and slip the patch over the male threads of the brush. Screw the brush back into the pull through string thereby capturing the patch. Slow but very effective. Two small containers with pre lubed cleaning patches and your favorite oil would make for a very lightweight field kit. There are many formula's available on the internet for cleaning black powder fouling. Black Powder fouling salts are neutralized by water. A combination of one part Ballistol and two parts water, makes a very good BP cleaning solution.

Buffalo Arms in Idaho has a large selection of vegetable fiber and poly wads.
Rick

PS IMR 4759 is the preferred smokeless duplexing powder. Unfortunately is was discontinued 5-6 years ago.

Rick.......
I tried both (SR4759 and IMI 4227, I think you find they both are "the preferred" depends who you read) I much preferred the 4227 (my sr 4759 was really old though)

I have a mate using AR2205 with good results, and some tell that 4227 is rebranded AR2205 anyway.

IMI 4227 is pretty much identical density to my BP so its a one for one swap - I reckon gains about 100fps over straight black maybe a little better?

Seen somebody (may have been Savvy Jack / Bryan Austin?) write that duplex actually reduces pressure ? dunno about that - I have no way of testing - higher velocity = higher pressure is a safe assumption until data says otherwise .

[hard88cast]

Jfe,,no ,the 480 gr cast boolits I have are not gas checked, darn I wish they were, I'm scouring the net for a gas checked boolit with the same basic profile.

Trailboss, I've never tried that powder but it seems like a very fast burning powder for that large case. Wouldn't a medium burn rate powder filling the case be better????that's a question not a statement.

[hard88cast]

I'm looking at Montana bullet works cast gas checked 455gr rfn, will be chatting with them about profile.
When I switched to cast gas check bullets instead of just plain base in my antique 86s it made a huge difference.

Those 480 gr cast boolits are .512... But will ask my smith to slug my barrel for me.

[hard88cast]

I've seen ffg and fffg used in this thread, the fffg was termed for the 45-70, I'm really a BP newbie, which one should I be looking for, for my 50-100 to be used in duplex loads. Thanks

[Rick B]

I tend to prefer the .060 poly wad. They do a good job of protecting the base of the bullet. A magnum primer is not necessary when shooting BP. IMR 4227 should work very well for a duplex starting charge. I would start with 1 1/2 Swiss BP in that big case. In regard to the two small containers of wet patches. One would hold the water/Balistol mix. The other would have oiled patches. 1400 fps in a lot of cases is the magic number for needing gas checks.
Rick

[indian joe]

I tend to prefer the .060 poly wad. They do a good job of protecting the base of the bullet. A magnum primer is not necessary when shooting BP. IMR 4227 should work very well for a duplex starting charge. I would start with 1 1/2 Swiss BP in that big case. In regard to the two small containers of wet patches. One would hold the water/Balistol mix. The other would have oiled patches. 1400 fps in a lot of cases is the magic number for needing gas checks.
Rick

I reckon that 1400 number came from shooting boolits seated on the powder. I bet you can go well past that with a well fitted wad in there - I have seen no sign at all of leading in that Chiappa at 1500FPS - the boolit is pretty soft - enough to give perfect classic mushroom in soft dirt at 100yards.

[hard88cast]

I think breaking "myself" into shooting this cannon is a good idea with duplex loads so thats where I am heading. Buffalo arms is out of stock on poly, so I guess its milk jugs for me. They do have a .512 hammer wad cutter I will get.
But once the rifle goes in the woods for its intended purpose I need to be at or a little above 2000'fps.
im open to suggestions for smokeless powder loads.

For smokeless loads thinking of starting at max 50 alaskan loads and working up from there. Any thoughts on this????

[indian joe]

I think breaking "myself" into shooting this cannon is a good idea with duplex loads so thats where I am heading. Buffalo arms is out of stock on poly, so I guess its milk jugs for me. They do have a .512 hammer wad cutter I will get.
But once the rifle goes in the woods for its intended purpose I need to be at or a little above 2000'fps.
im open to suggestions for smokeless powder loads.

For smokeless loads thinking of starting at max 50 alaskan loads and working up from there. Any thoughts on this????

Have you watched that Jeremy Arnold utube channel ? he's been shooting a rifle like yours with some monster smokeless loads - might be a good place to look for info.

[hard88cast]

If you mean "lever guns 50" on you tube yes I watch a lot of his vids. But he never talks about loads.

[hard88cast]

I was on buffalo arms site the other day and saw they were out of poly wad sheets. Just found on there sight that have 1000 count poly and veg wads .512". Seems like one heck of a lot of wads. So my mistake saying buffalo was out of wad mtl.

[JFE]

Trailboss is fast burning but the doughnut shaped granules take up a lot of space. It was designed to be used without a filler or be compressed. I’d use the plain base pills you have with Trailboss or BP loads.

[GregLaROCHE]

I used to spend a lot of time working in heavy populated grisly areas. When I was working, I found that a rifle was often set down, to have my hands free and in general making it easier to get the job done. I would inadvertently find myself far away from my rifle. If I were to be charged, there was no way I could get to my rifle in time.

I started to carry a 44 mag, that was the most powerful handgun available at the time, so I would have it next to me at all times. Since I was packing a lot of stuff a long ways, I didn’t carry the rifle in addition. I was never sure how effective the 44 would have been on a charging bear, especially when there’s not much time to choose the best bullet placement. Later when what I was doing changed, I started carrying my 45/70 again.

The point is a that if a gun is not close at hand, it won’t do you any good in an emergency situation. If you risk being away from your rifle, consider a handgun, preferably with a holster with the gun at the center of your chest. That makes it a lot easier to wear a pack and work. For sure having both a rifle and handgun would be best, if you can manage it in your situation.

[indian joe]

If you mean "lever guns 50" on you tube yes I watch a lot of his vids. But he never talks about loads.

correct - but if you could contact him offline???????

[veeman]

Leverguns 50 makes nice video's, but they are all shot at 20-30 feet. Maybe he doesn't have the space to do it but I would like to see what those loads he tests do at real hunting yards, say 100 yards. That would seem to be a more effective test.

[hard88cast]

Greg laroche, totally agree with all your points including the center chest holster, center chest is the only way to go while mining, actually while doing anything in the woods. And having to always keep your weapons handy while mining is a pita.
And yes, leaning the rifle up against a tree and walking away is a problem and exactly why I carry my 44mag.
And your right again, bear charges can be slow from a long distance away or so fast you don't even have time to draw, but lucky for me they have always been false charges, even the ones in Alaska that have stopped at 12ft. My neighbor/good friend wasn't so lucky, bear spray didn't work for him. I've even had nice grizz seriously growl and snap there jaws at me from 40' and allow me to back up and walk away, you just never know.
In Montana if you shoot a grizz there better be powder burns on his face or your going to jail, I think that mindset is why I never fired at a Kodiak in alaska. You can't run, have to stand your ground, be ready, and take what's coming.
Jfe, for sure, plain base till about 1600 or when leading starts,thanks.

[John Boy]

How frequent are bear attacks in Alaska?
Image result for how many mauled by bears in AK
There were 66 bear attacks in Alaska from 2000–2017.

During this period, bear-human incidents contributed to 68 hospitalizations, as bear attack statistics for Alaska report. That averages 3.8 admissions every year, while the average rate of bear attack hospitalizations is 8.6 per 10,000 hospitalizations annually.

Fish and Game data indicates about 175,000 Alaska residents are hunters.

Fatal Bear Attacks in North America in Last 20 Years
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/list-fatal-black-bear-attacks-north-america-last-20-years/

I gold prospect here in Montana and find myself not being able to concentrate on my prospecting or just staying away from some of the best gold prospecting areas because of the ever present Grizzly population

How common are bear attacks in Montana?
Image result for bear attacks in montana
Fatal bear attacks are relatively rare

[Rick B]

Lived in Alaska for a while. Talk to a real Bear Biologist and they will tell you a Black Bear is more apt to kill you. Brown/Grizzly bears are more prone to charge, slap you around and leave. A black Black Bear that commits to an actual attack is not easily persuaded to abandon it. They are interested in killing and eating you. When it comes to Brown/Grizzly Bears, the coastal Brown Bears are easier to be around. The interior Grizzly is half the size and a lot meaner. Same bear, the interior bear just has to work a lot harder for it's food source.
Rick
PS I rarely respond to bear discussions.

[Rick B]

One additional action I should of mentioned. The Biologists that have studied attacks, recommend that you fight a Black Bear attack. When it comes to Brown/Grizzlies it is recommended that you get down and cover your head with your arms. Don't resist. Once a Brown/ Grizzly swats you a time or two and realizes it's dominance. The odds are it will leave. Will leave a link to a 2017 article on two Black Bear attacks in Alaska. The author also retells a 1977 encounter a Goverment Geologist had. I clearly remember reading about the 1977 attack, just after Air happened. If I recall correctly the Black Bear weighted 125 pounds.
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/21/dangerous-bear/
Rick

[hard88cast]

I agree Rick.
Sorry, seems as though I got us off track here, so am going to start up again with some needed help?

1: Found a nice gas checked 540gr hard cast bullet I can turn down on my lathe to get the correct winchester 450 profile and metplate and probably end up around 480-500gr..Only thing is the seller says it is BHN of 24-25...That seems awfully hard, but will be pushing that 50cal bullet around 2100fps or so, any thoughts on this for a bear load?

[Rick B]

No experience at that velocity with cast bullets and dangerous game. I have used 30-1 bullets at
1400-1500 fps at the muzzle. In 45 caliber, heavy for bore diameter bullets. Which resulted in complete pass throughs. Shot a number of moose broadside with older cup and core bullets including Nosler Partitions. 30-06's and 338 WM. Never had a bullet exit the off side. upon skinning the animal the bullet would always be laying against the hide on the far side. Many a time I would visualize the hide on the far side stretching out 5"-6 and springing back, successfully retaining the bullet. Whether that happen or not, I can't say. Shot a Moose one day with a 45 caliber rifle at 65 yards, he was running-broadside. Hit it high centered on the lungs. Bullet made a complete pass through. Knocked the Moose off his feet. He couldn't get back up. Another instance I shot a Dall Sheep that was walking away. 45 caliber 540 grain paper patched bullet at 1300 fps. Bullet struck the Ram several inches below his anus. It passed completely through the Ram and exited out the center of it's chest. Ram tipped over on it's side like his hooves were on hinges. Stone cold dead. I realize nether of the above instances resulted in major bone contact. Mainly soft flesh penetration.

A 450 grain 50 caliber slug at 2100 fps out of a 9# levergun is not something, I would want to shoot. I have shot a lot of large caliber rifles over the years l. The above combination is on a while new level of recoil. If I had to guess the 25 BHN bullet you found would not fare well at 2100 fps. Order a gas checked mold from Tom at Accurate Molds with the proper nose length. Cast a 12 BHN bullet. The duplex load you end up with, should launch a 450 grain bullet at 1500 fps. There is nothing in North America, that would tolerate, that combination. It will also be a recoil tolerable load.
Rick

[hard88cast]

Rick, yep duplex load to start out, maybe like it so much will just stay with it, don't know at this time. sounds like you think a 25bhn bullet is to hard?
Seems like lots of the bigger cast bullet manufacturers are casting right in that bhn area.

[indian joe]

Rick, yep duplex load to start out, maybe like it so much will just stay with it, don't know at this time. sounds like you think a 25bhn bullet is to hard?
Seems like lots of the bigger cast bullet manufacturers are casting right in that bhn area.


a 2B pencil just marks mine (so 12-13bhn?) 350 grain boolit at 1500fps from my 45/70 gives a perfect mushroom at 100yards in soft dirt - no leading !
I cant think of one good reason for those hard cast boolits but its a craze thats been running in the US for ages - if you are a production caster selling to noobies then its easier to make nice neat boolits quicker - thats a reason but not a good one.

[hard88cast]

Joe,, my research says the same thing,, hard bhn to make nice shiny bullets to sell to newbies and no damage while shipping.

I don't have the time or space right now to take up another hobby learning to cast , so may just have to use Barnes bullets with smokeless loads. Barnes recommends approx 18-2200fps on impact with their 450 jacketed.
Think I will contact the bullet manufacturer I was looking at and maybe they will make a softer bullet on request.

Rick,,having a custom mold made is not a bad idea, but still need someone to cast them for me.

[Rick B]

What's the latest on your 50-100-450 build.
Rick

[hard88cast]

Hey Rick, your keeping me on my toes. Must have been reading my mind.
Just recd my rifle back yesterday. Spent today checking free bore on a couple of bullets, the Barnes 450gr clears well. Loaded 10rds from 35gr to 45 gr of 5744.. Have been trying to find Swiss 1.5 and no luck on that so smokeless is going to break the barrel in.
Also for anyone interested I took Indian Joes advice and bought a win71 firing pin it fit well with miner mods.
The blr71 firing pin is strange to say the least and not something I wanted to rely on.
I had the smith make a 22" 1\2 round 1\2 octagon barrel, it is sweet.
Action works correctly, needs a complete lever action to raise the feed ramp, rifle feeds correctly while upside down.
Depending on weather up here in Montana going to try and go to the range tomorrow and check things with the chrono.
I don't know how to post pics, I still need to take a couple nice pics.
I chickened out with the crescent butt and had the smith put a limb saver on for me. I still need to finish the stock and forearm.
Keep you all posted soon.

[Rick B]

Glad to hear your rifle is back home. Feeding is a major issue with the 50-100 or 50-110. Sounds like John Did a good job on the feed modifications. Would really like to see pictures of the completed rifle with the 22" half round - half octagon barrel. I have several single shots with that configuration. Really like the overall appearance they present. Hope to hear a shooting report later today!
Rick

[John Taylor]

The 50-100 was fun build, now I should get my own finished. Mine has sort of been a parts gun starting with an old beat up model 71. Several years back a customer had me make several barrels for his late model import takedown 71 and complained about the recoil of the 50 so I replace the butt stock with a shotgun stile. That left me with a nice pistol grip stock for my 71 but the lower tang didn't fit the wood. A new replacement lower tang fit the wood but took some fitting to go in the action. Bought a new forearm that matched the checkering of the butt stock and fit the new 30" octagon barrel. Mike Hunter did the lettering on the barrel an Redman supplied a piece of tube for the long magazine. Barrel is on the action and threads on the mag tube to fit, just need to finish it. I figure the long barrel will tame it down a bit even with the crescent butt plate. Next will be making my own loading dies because they are so expensive and hard to find, then maybe a bullet mold.

[hard88cast]

I keep trying to "insert picture from computer", Keep getting an error message.

ok, went shooting this morning, beautiful morning out 18deg F in the sun, I was in the shade with a 5mph breeze.
Rifle functioned flawlessly with the 450 gr barnes jacketed. Actually i cant tell any difference from levering the cartridge into the chamber between this 50 and my antique 45-90 and 45-70.
My blr71 was built I believe in 1986, i bought it 6 months ago and it had never had a round inserted into the mag as well as I can tell. Brand new from an estate sale. Stiff action, did loosen up a little with some oil. Point being you need to hit the lever hard to actuate the elevator, swing the lever back and the cartridge just glides right into the chamber, no fuss. I was a little surprised with this conversion that the cartridge is held very firmly throughout the lever action and how smoothly the cartridge glides into chamber. Major kudos to my gunsmith.
Now to the barrel, the rifling and bore from the factory is really nice, i mean glass smooth, impressive. The Job my gunsmith did making it a 22" 1/2 round 1/2 octagon is just phenomenal, beautiful, not sure how to say it any differently. Actually a work of art, I thought to myself how am I going to take this rifle out mining and scratch it up, but im going to, its going to get a little beat up.

I loaded 35,40 and 45 grain loads, 1/2 with loose powder in the case and 1/2 with my old standby filler with a little pressure on the powder and chronographed them all with my 40yr old chrony chrono.
The last load of 45gr hit 1515fps loose fill and 1595 packed with filler.
I must say for my first time ever shooting a 50, when you squeeze that trigger off you definitely know there is a big hunk of lead going down range.
All cartridges were fired off the bench thru a chrony with 3 1/2"x2" opening set 12' forward with matching target at 25 yds. The first 6 shots "one holed" after that between my trifocals with safety glasses over the top were fogging up and I just couldnt focus any more looking into the bright sunlight, rest were all within an inch. All shots were dead nuts center of target were my gunsmith said he set the sights.
Glad I decided to listen to you folks and have my smith install a buttpad instead of crescent butt. I have a feeling hitting 1850fps isnt going to be much fun off the bench.
The freebore with the barnes bullets is about .090, the lead bullets Tom from this blog gave me to try are a little long with the driving band by about .025" compressed into the rifling so I did not load any of those, so on the lookout for cast bullets that will work, or maybe shorten all my cases a bit.

[hard88cast]

Hi John, I did not know if you wanted me to divulge your name but since Rick "LOL" let the cat out of the bag, just wanted to say thanks for a great job. It lifts and feeds those barnes bullets perfectly. It really shoots sweet. Thanks.

I failed at figuring out how to post the pics so Tom is going to help with that, sending pics to him now. Thanks Tom.

[hpbear101]

Picture upload for hard88cast
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[Rick B]

I only mentioned a first name. Not the last. Enjoyed seeing the pictures and hearing the shooting report. There is nothing in North Ameria that will tolerate a 450 grain 51 caliber bullet at 1500 FPS. Bought my first Shiloh Sharps in 50-140 3 1/4"'in 1979. The Shiloh had a Crescent buttstock. Quickly learned that a 525 grain bullet at 1550 FPS was not a lot of fun. Replaced it with a #1 Sporter in 1983. #1 Sporters had a shotgun buttstock. Made a world of difference. By that time I was loading a custom 615 grain bullet and a duplex load at 1550 FPS. It was a handful.
Rick

[hard88cast]

Wow Rick, 615 gr @ 1550, that's a handful. think I will bring my load up to 50gr 5744 and call it good..then see what 3031 does. recovered a few of those barnes bullets from a somewhat frozen dirt berm , smashed up.

[John Taylor]

Glad you'r having fun with the 50. Always great to hear a happy customer. I have not had a chance to do any shooting sense the move. My kids bought me a year pass at the local indoor range as a Christmas present, need to go pop a few caps. Latest build is an under hammer pistol for a young lady.

[JFE]

Well done on getting the project completed. JT has done a great job. Well done.

Look forward to hearing how your handloads go.

I have a few moulds that were designed to work in 500 Linebaugh, 50 Alaskan and 50/110. My 50/110 accepts them fine because it has a longish throat but they foul in a 50/90 I have. I ordered a 0.500 sizer die for my lubesizer and size the front of the cast projectile up to the crimp groove and the bullet then fits perfectly in my 50/90.

[hard88cast]

Hey there JFE ,
I loaded up a few more 45gr in 5744, and 48, 50 and 52 grainers. I don't think I will be wanting to go any more than that. But want to feel the capabilities of the cartridge(ouch) somewhat.
Then I will play with some 3031.
After that I will site in at 50 yds and call it good.
Keep you posted on next Chrony numbers.

[hard88cast]

Went to the range yesterday for anyone interested, shooting 5744 w/o fillers, so powder was loose in the case.
45gr 5744=1586.
48gr=1675.
50gr=1730.
52gr=1800.

So ive loaded 35 gr thru 52 gr. All shot from the bench on a rest thru chrono at a target at 50yds this time.
I called Hogdon about a load for the 50-100 and 5744, they said 30-47gr. Since i am playing with a blr71 instead of an original 86 I took it a little higher.
Im no powder expert but what I gathered from hodgon was that 5744 is a special type two part powder(I forget the difference), but designed to be loose in the case. Picture a half filled case with the powder laying flat in the bttm of the case.
Anyway shooting from a bench on a rest is not the most comfortable way to shoot a 50 but what I noticed was that all the way up to 50gr of powder it didnt kick too bad, but 52gr changed things a little noticeably. Again I just work by feel, but that difference made me feel like i had hit the limit of the "2 part nitro powder" that 5744 is(shook my jaw). So from this point out i am going to be loading 4198 and 3031 to play with.
Now to the accuracy of the Douglas barrel 1/24". I shot several groups and new targets each time. Shooting barnes 450gr jacketed at 50 yds, which thru my tri focals and safety glases is a feat in itself, all 3 shot groups of different powder amounts all 1 holed in a clover leaf or overlapped each other.
Other then the 52gr load which after the first shot I called it quits on the chrono and saved the last loads for the 100yd gong, rang it.
Again many praises to John my smith, my rifle will load barnes 450 grainers as fast as you can lever it, ive tried to make it fail on the Barnes bullets and i cant get it to fail loading smoothly. Totally sweet rifle. So sweet I dont know how to say it any differently.

For indian joe i weighed it again on my business postal scale and 8.34lbs. Thanks indian Joe on the tip to try a win 71 firing pin, that stock pin is scary. Thanks to all for the help and guidance and especially to Rick who has jammed me full of info all the way thru this.