R-P Brass for .45 ACP Failing to Crimp Properly?

[VariableRecall]

This was an issue that I had earlier, but it took a while to finally understand the relation between the headstamp and the issues I was having.

I'm using an old Bonanza die set to load .45 ACP, combined with a Lee Expander Die to maintain compatibility with the Lee Auto Drum. Earlier, I had issues with some pieces of brass. After the seating and crimping steps were complete, the bullet failed to be properly taut within the case, requiring only a gentle touch to push the bullet into the case, and I could easily twist the whole bullet out with gentle force with pliers.

Thinking that it was something wrong with the brass, to double check, I loaded up a Speer headstamped .45 ACP case, and the boolit seating and crimping was perfect. But, when I did the same with this R-P headstamped brass, the bullet was left loose in the case. I had attempted, as an experiment, to get the R-P cases seated, but they required so much crimping force that it ruined cases made by any other manufacturer.

Has anyone else had a bad experience with loading R-P Brass? l have no idea why they have given me so much trouble. I don't think that I've heard of the company to be honest. Either way, any other R-P brass I've used has worked just fine for me.

[QuackAttack24]

R.P. brass is the thinnest most flimsy brass there is. When I'm re-sizing my brass, I can tell without looking that it's an R.P. case because it requires hardly any pressure from the ram to push it through. Since the inside of the case is what grabs the bullet, with R.P. cases you have to crank down the crimp die a little further to get a good grip. I've pretty much stopped using them unless it's the only thing I have left to load.

[VariableRecall]

R.P. brass is the thinnest most flimsy brass there is. When I'm re-sizing my brass, I can tell without looking that it's an R.P. case because it requires hardly any pressure from the ram to push it through. Since the inside of the case is what grabs the bullet, with R.P. cases you have to crank down the crimp die a little further to get a good grip. I've pretty much stopped using them unless it's the only thing I have left to load.

Glad to know I'm not going crazy or something. What's the actual name the manufacturer that has R-P on it's headstamps? that would be something to avoid for me in case getting loaded ammo ever becomes convenient again so I don't waste my time.

[45DUDE]

RP is one of my favorite. I bought a Dillon in the 80's for my first press and still use it. A Merc is junk. I don't have to readjust any 45 acp crimp for any load. I will keep up with the problem. It sounds like a case sizing problem and may need a little lube?

[zarrinvz24]

I’ve noticed that Rem brass seems to banana more often when it’s got a bulge rather than resize. I’ve got a whole pile of scrapped RP brass. I’m with poster #2, I try and trade it off or save it for ranges that don’t allow me to pickup my empties.

[BigAlofPa.]

I was loading .357 yesterday. And my Remington brass was the easiest to resize. Almost too easy. I thought they might have been split. But all were ok.

[Skipper]

Variable, I had the same problem many years ago. I ended up smashing every piece of R-P and switching to Winchester...never looked back.

[Dusty Bannister]

Most interesting comments about Remington brass. I had issues with the thickness of brass cases many years ago with the reloaded cases being too large to chamber properly. I was using a cast bullet of .3585" and only Federal allowed easy chambering. Winchester, Remington and probably some others was just too large.

Variable seems to have left out the actual diameter of his cast bullet from this little issue. A bullet sized to .451" might be a little small for the barrel as well as the cartridge case combination. Or it just could be the brass or crimp.

[nhithaca]

If I want new pistol brass it is either Starline (1st choice) or Federal.
I do agree that R-P brass tends to loose neck tension easier than the others.

[VariableRecall]

RP is one of my favorite. I bought a Dillon in the 80's for my first press and still use it. A Merc is junk. I don't have to readjust any 45 acp crimp for any load. I will keep up with the problem. It sounds like a case sizing problem and may need a little lube?

My best guess is that perhaps the really old sizing die I'm using perhaps isn't narrowing the R-P Brass enough? Maybe the seater isn't very strong?

One thing that may help is a Lee Factory Crimp Die to add to the steps. However, I doubt that this alone would solve the problem of the brass' very nature.

[VariableRecall]

Most interesting comments about Remington brass. I had issues with the thickness of brass cases many years ago with the reloaded cases being too large to chamber properly. I was using a cast bullet of .3585" and only Federal allowed easy chambering. Winchester, Remington and probably some others was just too large.

Variable seems to have left out the actual diameter of his cast bullet from this little issue. A bullet sized to .451" might be a little small for the barrel as well as the cartridge case combination. Or it just could be the brass or crimp.

My boolits are sized to .452. I had great results with them so far, but that's with all brass but the R-P stuff. With a properly adjusted crimp, there's enough tension in the crimp so that you can't push the boolit in, and enough of the case mouth present to actually seat in the barrel. That balance is a tricky thing to get, but it's been reproducible for all other brass but one.

[JimB..]

I’d bet that your sizing die is on the large side of spec.

Just for grins, run a piece of brass into the fcd without a bullet, I think that’ll size it down, then expand it and try seating a bullet.

[gwpercle]

Separate out the R-P brass , save it for powder coated boolits or size boolits 0.001" larger to use in those cases . A Lee Carbide 45 acp sizing die will usually size them down far enough to use ...the Lee carbide sizer will over size if not adjusted just right ... my normal sizing die is a CH steel die and the steel dies usually don't oversize .
It's just a matter of matching sizing dies with thin or thick brass and the right size boolit .
Gary

[45DUDE]

I just grabbed a few cases to resize. They all do .448 i.d. with the Dillon. Win. S&B-RP-Federal-GFL- The Aguila was at .446. My sizing die barely touches the shell plate.

[Mohawk Daddy]

Glad to know I'm not going crazy or something. What's the actual name the manufacturer that has R-P on it's headstamps? that would be something to avoid for me in case getting loaded ammo ever becomes convenient again so I don't waste my time.
R-P = Remington Peters.

[Boogieman]

I had the same problem Couldn't crimp them tight enough to hold a .452" bullet Loose bullets in an autoloader are bad news

[jim147]

It been forever since I bought new ammo. Is this newer brass? Maybe last 10-15 years? I think my main brass is RP.

[samari46]

I'm with jim147 as to how old your brass is. I have a bunch of just about every manufacture of 45acp brass. And A-merc is junk. And also some of the MFS made in Hungary is also crap. Other than that once I set up my Dillon years back for I've never changed the setting on my dies. All I use is store bought 230 grain hard cast round nose as both my 45's will basically gobble up just about anything. Frank

[Mk42gunner]

Back in the 1970's and 80's it was a common complaint that Remington brass was thinner than the norm in handgun calibers. Not sure about rifle brass, at least I never had any problems with it.

If I had just a few R-P brass in a certain caliber, I would set it aside until I had enough to make adjusting die settings worth it. If I had a lot of it, I think I would still separate the brass and treat it as a separate lot while reloading.

After all, one of the first recommendations in just about any loading manual is to sort your brass. This step is commonly ignored, usually without too much trouble.

With the proliferation of good affordable brass from places like Starline, we as reloaders have become spoiled and generally forget the small steps.

Robert

[GBertolet]

Back in the 70's, I experienced that problem also, especially with the R-P nickel cases. I had purchased several boxes of new cases at my LGS, after I started reloading. A heavier crimp was a temporary fix, but anyhow, I soon retired those cases. A friend of mine experienced the same issue, and sent his RCBS sizer die back to the factory, and they exchanged it for a smaller sizer, which resolved the issue for him. Apparently RCBS was aware of this issue.

[Dale53]

I shot IPSC, seriously, for several years back in the seventies. I, early on, learned to discard R-P brass. I was a formally trained machinist, back in the day, and after measuring R-P brass discovered the problem was very simple. R-P brass was entirely, and measurably, TOO thin. I discarded all R-P brass. My favorite brass, at the time, was military brass. It had "crimped-in" primers that required swaging the primer pockets, but that was a one time thing. Today, Starline brass is an excellent choice. I size all bullets at .452" (that is proper for my 1911's as well as my .45 ACP revolvers). I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die, and taper crimp to an outside diameter of .470" on my Dillon 550B, and have NO issues these days. NO R-P .45 Cases for me!

Dale53

[SOFMatchstaff]

The RP brass issue has been ongoing for ever, My solution turned out to be the Dillon size die that came with my first 1050. squeezed the snot out of them. They still go in the sub gun bucket though along with the other range load that I wont miss.

[243winxb]

Lee makes a "Undersize Sizing Die 45 ACP" to deal with Remington thin walled brass. Its been an issue for 40 or more years. https://leeprecision.com/undersize-sizing-die-45-acp.html

[35remington]

No amount of taper crimp will make up for loose frictional fit of bullet to case.

You can take that as an absolute truth.

[VariableRecall]

No amount of taper crimp will make up for loose frictional fit of bullet to case.

You can take that as an absolute truth.

I can agree. There's really no way that I can make use of R-P brass with my setup. One possibility is getting a Lee FCD (planning on getting one in the first place) and seeing if it works with the R-P Brass. Then again, there's so much variance in seating quality for the R-P Brass that I don't think it would be worth it.

I'll be tossing any R-P brass in .45 ACP from here on out.

[slughammer]

You should change the title of the thread to be "My dies are failing to size and/Or expand R-P brass properly".

Taper "crimp" dies should have been named "Bell Remover" dies. The only function they serve is to remove the flare from the case mouth. You can not rely on a taper crimp for tension. (A Lee FCD is no fix either.)

Case tension and prevention of bullet set back comes from an interference fit of the boolit into the case. These do not come from crimp.

Your size die and/or your expander are to blame. Either not enough sizing, or too much expanding. I've had to swap size dies and I've had to polish down expanders.

Please keep this advice in mind as you reload any ammo for an autoloader. Case tension from an interference fit prevents bullet setback during feeding from the magazine to the chamber.

Always check for setback when setting up dies for an autoloader. Push a large sample of loaded rounds against the edge of your bench to verify the dies and brass work together.


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[GBertolet]

My early 1970's RCBS die set came with a roll crimp die. I just crimped into the front driving band, and the bullets stayed in place. Not the perfect solution, but it worked until I got other brass.

[9.3X62AL]

I lean toward Slughammer's text as far as R-P brass is concerned. I recently acquired 1100+ pieces of once-fired R-P 45 ACP brass, and using my RCBS T/C sizer for the 45 Colt (sizes to .469" O/D) it still gets engagement drag with the .448" RCBS expander spud (for J-words of .451") and the Lyman Multi-Charge spud (.449"/.453") for the castings at .452". I don't have difficulties with the R-P 45 ACP brass, and I use it in both my bottom-feeders (Series 80 GCNM and SIG P-220) and my S&W M-625 interchangeably.

[megasupermagnum]

Glad to know I'm not going crazy or something. What's the actual name the manufacturer that has R-P on it's headstamps? that would be something to avoid for me in case getting loaded ammo ever becomes convenient again so I don't waste my time.

I'm sure you figured this out, but R-P is Remington-Peters. They have been making brass forever. I actually like Remington brass because it is thin, and doesn't seem to harden as quickly as some. It is my second choice after Federal brass. Because it is thin, it can cause issues like you are having. Some don't, as a lot of sizing dies grossly undersize brass as it is. In your case, your dies are perfect for most brass, but not for the thin brass.

[ioon44]

You should change the title of the thread to be "My dies are failing to size and/Or expand R-P brass properly".

Taper "crimp" dies should have been named "Bell Remover" dies. The only function they serve is to remove the flare from the case mouth. You can not rely on a taper crimp for tension. (A Lee FCD is no fix either.)

Case tension and prevention of bullet set back comes from an interference fit of the boolit into the case. These do not come from crimp.

Your size die and/or your expander are to blame. Either not enough sizing, or too much expanding. I've had to swap size dies and I've had to polish down expanders.

Please keep this advice in mind as you reload any ammo for an autoloader. Case tension from an interference fit prevents bullet setback during feeding from the magazine to the chamber.

Always check for setback when setting up dies for an autoloader. Push a large sample of loaded rounds against the edge of your bench to verify the dies and brass work together.


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Yes, this.

[cobia]

My early 1970's RCBS die set came with a roll crimp die. I just crimped into the front driving band, and the bullets stayed in place. Not the perfect solution, but it worked until I got other brass.

So.. a roll crimp on an ACP case.. not sure if I am following your method..

[johniv]

Rem. brass has been unsatisfactory for me as well. Too thin. Not just .45 ACP, but .357 and .38 spl.

[bruce381]

You should change the title of the thread to be "My dies are failing to size and/Or expand R-P brass properly".

Taper "crimp" dies should have been named "Bell Remover" dies. The only function they serve is to remove the flare from the case mouth. You can not rely on a taper crimp for tension. (A Lee FCD is no fix either.)

Case tension and prevention of bullet set back comes from an interference fit of the boolit into the case. These do not come from crimp.

Your size die and/or your expander are to blame. Either not enough sizing, or too much expanding. I've had to swap size dies and I've had to polish down expanders.

Please keep this advice in mind as you reload any ammo for an autoloader. Case tension from an interference fit prevents bullet setback during feeding from the magazine to the chamber.

Always check for setback when setting up dies for an autoloader. Push a large sample of loaded rounds against the edge of your bench to verify the dies and brass work together.


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I do this before the crimp to make sure the expander is NOT over doing it (too big) if so I chuck in a drill press and file/sand down a tho or 2 to tighten up.
As abovbe is 100% correct bullet tension should be good BEFORE the crimp or in the 45acp case the tapper is applied.

[higgins]

I too had that problem with R-P .45 acp brass when I first started loading that cartridge. Later in my .45 acp career when I started loading bullets that were larger diameter or even unsized, the R-P brass worked out well because I could load the larger diameter bullets with less distortion.