Swc vs rnfp

[bbs70]

I shoot a Ruger New Vaquero in .45
I have a Lee swc mold I'm using at present it is a 252 grain Boolit mold.
A week ago I bought some 250 grain rnfp boolits that were sold cheap.
I noticed that the rnfp seemed to be a little more accurate than my swc.
I used the same powder charge for both boolits.

It was probably just me, but I got to wondering if there is a difference in accuracy between these two designs.

My shooting consists of strictly informal target shooting, but I would like to be as accurate as possible even with a gun with fixed sights.

[leadeye]

I am a fan of the RNFP style as I get hangups in lever action guns with some types of SWCs. The RNFP lets me make a load that works well for both.:castmine:

[beagle]

I agree on the RNFPs feeding good in the levers.

No less an expert than old Elmer always said RN bullets were more accurate in revolvers due to the RN centering better in the forcing cone. Problem was they didn't do that well on game so he went with the SWC.

I've worked with two bullets over the years that bear this out. The 358311 is a very accurate shooter in the .38 Special and .357 Mag and the 429383 is very accyrate in the .44 Special and .44 Magnum. The 454190 is the champ in the .45 Colt and the 452374 in the .45 ACP revolvers.

Now, I'm not a real scientific shooter but they seem to outperform the SWCs accuracywise in revolvers.

I'm not shooting a lot of game so they work well for me./beagle

[bbs70]

To tell the truth beagle, I was looking at the 452664 from Lyman.
But before I try to talk the wife into letting me get it, I wanted to get someone elses opinion on the subject.

[Catshooter]

beagle nailed it for ya. Except the part where he said he's not a real scientific shooter. We don't call it "Beagleing" by accident, ya know.


Cat

[shooting on a shoestring]

I am a firm believer that RNs are more precise groupers than SWC. But I don't believe it has anything to do with the idea of "centering" in the forcing cone.

I believe it is due to precession. A RN boolit with a more spherical leading edge creates less turbulence when slewed than the flat meplat of a SWC or WC. The WC is known for freaking out somewhere past 50 yds which is where I would expect the additive precession (amplifed due to slewing a flat surface to oncoming wind resistance) to grow to the point it overcomes the stabilizing centripetal force. At the same 50 yds, the RN has much less precession and it is damped not amplified, and therefore ceases and the boolit flies stable.

This is not my idea, but a loose compliation of some physicists that I've read.

[bbs70]

So in other words, the rn cuts through the air where the swc pushes through the air making it more unstable.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Once upon a time in a galaxy far away, a gentleman named Phil Sharpe carried out the following experiment. He took two short pieces of wooden board (about 6-8 inches I suppose); one was cut flat across at a 90 degree angle and the other was cut at 45 degree angles to make it come to a point at the center of the end of the board. He put them in a tub of water and pushed them. You can add on your own, a board that has a rounded end, and another one that has a SWC shape and as you push each one you can observe what each board does. Water is a lot denser than air and your boards aren't traveling 25 or 50 yards, but you will get the general idea very quickly regarding the effect that the shape has on the forward progress of the different boards. LLS

[shooting on a shoestring]

Its not a matter of wind resistance, but wobble. Precession is the $2 word for wobble. Our boolits spin, but also wobble like a top. The precession is either damped out as the boolit travels or is aggrevated and it grows more intense.

Think of a wadcutter as a flat surface, as it wobbles it is no longer 90 degrees square to the wind, but slanted. A round nose that is slanted into the wind, still looks pretty much like a round surface at any angle. The flat surface being slanted in the wind wants to flip, but the centripetal force keeps it from that, until the wobble gets really intense and the centripetal force looses the battle. Then the wadcutter veers off to where ever. The round nose though, does not get any extra push from a slanted flat surface in the wind. The round nose looks pretty close to a round ball and so slew angle doesn't push it around, and the precession doesn't gain energy and instead gets overcome by the centripetal force and the wobble gets damped out.

Square fronted boolits or boards slow down faster, resist more than round ones. But that decceleration doesn't affect grouping, just velocity loss.

[GrizzLeeBear]

You see this with some long range rifle (jacketed bullets) too. Namely, the heavy for caliber, boat tail hollow points. They don't shoot any better moa groups at 200 yds. but at 300+ yards they shoot smaller moa than lighter target bullets. They may be very slightly out of stabily at the muzzle, but due to their balance and shape, the wobble gets dampened out as it travels down range. They call this "going to sleep". The nose quits wobbling about the axis of travel and from then on the bullet flies "true". Like S on a S says, a RN due to its shape tends to dampen out the wobble, but a FN or WC enhances it as it flies.
But then again, every gun and load has other variables that may affect accuracy more than the bullet shape.

[Tom Herman]

To tell the truth beagle, I was looking at the 452664 from Lyman.
But before I try to talk the wife into letting me get it, I wanted to get someone elses opinion on the subject.

Let me talk the wife into getting it for you! My first .45 LC mold was the 452424. I still use it, but it's a two holer, and the bullets if crimped properly result in a round that is about 1.650" COAL. They simply do NOT feed in an unmodified Taurus Thunderbolt!
The 452664 is a four holer, so you can theoretically cast twice as fast as with the 452424. Also, the rounder profile feeds flawlessly in the Thunderbolt, and results in a cartridge that is about 1.585" or under SAAMI maximum cartridge length.
The only fault I have with the 664 is that the base is not flat, but slightly beveled. This results in grease getting stuck in that bevel when I resize and lubricate. It's a MINOR point, and I've gotten used to it.
I love casting with the 664! Everyone should have at least one...

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[cajun shooter]

bbs70, The 452664 is a great bullet to shoot. I have the mold and like it alot. The lube groove does hold enough for BP shooting in CAS. Explain to your wife that we are with molds as they are with shoes and I bet you get your point across. Or if things won't work out that way do as every other male has. Buy the mold, put it with your others and say; That mold new, no I've had it for a long time. Don't you remember, that's the one that I told you was doing so well when I cast with it.

[mtgrs737]

I have the Lyman 452664 in a four cavity and it is my only 45 Long Colt mould, I can't imagine why I would need another design! It casts wonderfully using WW's, the lube groove is large. I do wish it were a flat base instead of the bevel base, but If I wanted to pony up the money I could have Buckshot remove it. It seems to shoot more accurately than I can hold my New Vaquero anyway. I also thought about having a one or two cavity hollow mould pointed but considering the allready huge meplat and 900 fps velocity of the standard 45 colt loading I doubt that HPing would help much.

[Willbird]

To be fair to the full wadcutter, it is in a situation where due to rifling twist and velocity it is just BARELY stable at all, this is also why it is so accurate at 25 and 50 yards.

Bill

[bbs70]

Well Gentlemen I want to thank you all for your input, it definetly is appreciated.

I didn't know the 252664 had a bevel base, I'm not a fan of the bb.
I think I've decided on the 454190, it seems to be the type I was looking for and from all I've read here and elswhere, it is an accurate boolit.

Midsouth is back ordered on the mould and handles.
Graf's has the mold, but no handles.
Midway has handles but no molds.

Guess I'm gonna have ta wait.:groner:

[Bret4207]

It could just be the boolits you bought fit your particular gun better too.

[44man]

The man said RN-FLAT POINT and I think he is referring to the LBT truncated cone shape. If so, it IS more accurate.
I also have doubts that a flat nose wobbles because it pushes a pressure wave ahead of it that keeps wind, air or deer innards from tilting it. At least I have never proven even a WFN loses accuracy at long range and I shoot them to 500 meters.
Fit to the rifling twist and boolit balance is what controls accuracy anyway.
Grizzleebear, it is not wobble that causes that with a jacketed bullet. If you watch bullet flight with a strong scope, you will see it is OVER SPUN and rotates around the flight path the same way a gyro walks around until the spin slows a little, at that point is goes to sleep. Then notice that when spin gets slower it really starts to wobble. A boolit acts the same, if spun too fast it will not wobble but it will go to sleep at some point but if underspun it will wobble right out of the muzzle or start to wobble at a closer range.
Most bad accuracy problems and boolit wobble are caused by trying to shoot a long, heavy boolit too slow to spin up. The first thing said is the flat nose is not accurate!
When shooting extended ranges, it is better to overspin a boolit. BR shooters that shoot closer ranges will slow down the twist to eliminate the rotation around the flight path but extreme range shooting will suffer.
Another way to get long range accuracy is to shoot a very high velocity so the bullet gets down range quick before the loss of spin can de-stabilize it. We can't do that in a revolver!
Someone will say a bullet does not lose spin, not true, it is less of a loss then a velocity loss is but it takes less to ruin bullet flight when not spun fast enough to start with.
Those that try to shoot 300 gr boolits from a .44 or so, at 900 fps will always say the boolit sucks! [smilie=s:

[Bret4207]

The man said RN-FLAT POINT and I think he is referring to the LBT truncated cone shape. If so, it IS more accurate.
I also have doubts that a flat nose wobbles because it pushes a pressure wave ahead of it that keeps wind, air or deer innards from tilting it. At least I have never proven even a WFN loses accuracy at long range and I shoot them to 500 meters.
Fit to the rifling twist and boolit balance is what controls accuracy anyway.
Grizzleebear, it is not wobble that causes that with a jacketed bullet. If you watch bullet flight with a strong scope, you will see it is OVER SPUN and rotates around the flight path the same way a gyro walks around until the spin slows a little, at that point is goes to sleep. Then notice that when spin gets slower it really starts to wobble. A boolit acts the same, if spun too fast it will not wobble but it will go to sleep at some point but if underspun it will wobble right out of the muzzle or start to wobble at a closer range.
Most bad accuracy problems and boolit wobble are caused by trying to shoot a long, heavy boolit too slow to spin up. The first thing said is the flat nose is not accurate!
When shooting extended ranges, it is better to overspin a boolit. BR shooters that shoot closer ranges will slow down the twist to eliminate the rotation around the flight path but extreme range shooting will suffer.
Another way to get long range accuracy is to shoot a very high velocity so the bullet gets down range quick before the loss of spin can de-stabilize it. We can't do that in a revolver!
Someone will say a bullet does not lose spin, not true, it is less of a loss then a velocity loss is but it takes less to ruin bullet flight when not spun fast enough to start with.
Those that try to shoot 300 gr boolits from a .44 or so, at 900 fps will always say the boolit sucks! [smilie=s:

Uh uh! They don't work the same. The gyro or top doesn't have air pressure running along side it encouraging it to stay point on, especially in longer boolits. Sectional Density and Ballistic Coefficient come into play here. An arrow might be a better comparison and one much easier to watch in flight.

That being said, the issue of which is more accurate all depends on fit in particular gun. FIT IS KING!!! Shape is second or third maybe. And quality of the mould, casting, etc is in there too along with runout. While I think it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison IMO it would take several hundred different guns and hundreds of thousands of rounds, with every shot being recorded, to make a solid determination of the most accurate form. And at that it still wouldn't make a bit of difference in the real world. If a guy likes the LBT style or the Keith or the Bosler better he'll shoot more of them, tweak things and his gun will end up shooting them better.

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree with brett i dont think theres such thing as one bullet design being more accurate in a revolver then another. Theres just way to many variables involved in that statement. Not a revolver but i know in 1911s i have much better luck with swcs then with round nosed bullets and i think about anyone that shoots competition would agree.

[44man]

Bret, everything is taken into account, fit. load, straight without run out, etc. Just talking what the perfect boolit will do.
I have watched thousands fly downrange when I shot silhouette. And many more when shooting BPCR.
You can actually see an extremely fast corkscrew flight when the boolit is spun too fast. It is not wide, appearing to be an inch or less around the flight path. It is doing the exact same thing a fast top does, walk a circle until the top goes to sleep. Where it shows up real good is with a fast 240 gr bullet from a S&W 29. If the sun is behind you it will blow your mind. Just reducing the load a little or going to a 250 gr bullet STOPS it and the bullet runs true. Even with the rotation the S&W was accurate.
Now step to the BP rifle and watch a slow, stable flight with low spin and low velocity. Somewhere down range from 300 to 400 meters the boolit becomes unstable, wobbles and heads off to places unknown. This is where air pressure and wind effects them the worst. A boolit that will shoot into an inch at 200 meters will hit all around the 500 meter ram, way high, low, left or right. Many times the hit can't be found. It is the reason a lot of shooters have custom barrels with a faster twist.
By the way, study a shadowgraph of a bullet in flight. You will see there is little air working on the sides of the bullet as the pressure wave from the nose forces air away from the sides to come back behind the bullet and burble as drag. The flatter the nose, the farther out the wave goes. Shooting revolvers does not give us the luxery of a drag free bullet. Drag is at the front and behind our boolits, not on the sides to hold the boolit in line.
You can't even compare to an arrow! The arrow creates its own spin and it is correct even when the arrow loses velocity. Shoot an arrow 300 yd's and watch it, discounting wind drift. It will always fly straight.
A strong wind will push the back of the arrow sideways but the tip tries to stay in line with the target even though the whole arrow will drift. There will be NO wobble. There is also no rotation around the flight path because the air over the vanes is controlling the spin no matter what the velocity. Spin is always a perfect match.
Once a boolits leaves the muzzle it is spinning as fast as it ever will, no more spin or velocity can pe imparted on it, thats it, it is done right there. There are no feathers on the tail! It is up to us to match the boolit to what it needs BEFORE it leaves the muzzle.
You can't sit in an armchair and come up with theories, Neither can you read gun rags for answers. You have to SEE FOR YOURSELF what is going on.

[BD]

I have experienced the WFNs going wonky after about 150 yards. My DW 744 is throated for the ballisticast 265 grain WFN, and shoots them far better than I can hold at 100 and 150. But at 200 yards they're all over the place. I do not have this issue with the Lee 310s or the box of LFNs I tried.

My theory is that as they come down through 1,100 fps the turbulence causes them to rotate around the line of flight. They don't seem to tumble but the groups go from 4" at 100 and 6" at 150 to 18" at 200 with occasional flyers clear off the target, (those may be tumbling). IMHO there is a definate limit relative to sectional density and meplat % for long range.

BD

[Willbird]

I wonder if 300-400 yards is where the BP bullet drops subsonic ?

[44man]

You fellers don't read right! [smilie=1: Dropping subsonic will not hurt if spin is still enough. Boolits that go below the speed of sound will not rotate around the flight path unless spin is still too high (Rare.) but will wobble due to loss of spin. Keep the spin at the rate the boolit needs to stay stable and velocity doesn't matter.
Dropping through the sound barrier is tough on a boolit, lots of vibration. Low stability lets air and wind play hell on the boolit.
Haven't any of you watched BB's come out of a BB gun?
Match the velocity and spin rate the boolit needs at long range and it will hit the target better then a mile away. YOU CAN"T CHANGE THINGS AND EXPECT IT TO WORK!

[Bret4207]

Bret, everything is taken into account, fit. load, straight without run out, etc. Just talking what the perfect boolit will do.
I have watched thousands fly downrange when I shot silhouette. And many more when shooting BPCR.
You can actually see an extremely fast corkscrew flight when the boolit is spun too fast. It is not wide, appearing to be an inch or less around the flight path. It is doing the exact same thing a fast top does, walk a circle until the top goes to sleep. Where it shows up real good is with a fast 240 gr bullet from a S&W 29. If the sun is behind you it will blow your mind. Just reducing the load a little or going to a 250 gr bullet STOPS it and the bullet runs true. Even with the rotation the S&W was accurate.
Now step to the BP rifle and watch a slow, stable flight with low spin and low velocity. Somewhere down range from 300 to 400 meters the boolit becomes unstable, wobbles and heads off to places unknown. This is where air pressure and wind effects them the worst. A boolit that will shoot into an inch at 200 meters will hit all around the 500 meter ram, way high, low, left or right. Many times the hit can't be found. It is the reason a lot of shooters have custom barrels with a faster twist.
By the way, study a shadowgraph of a bullet in flight. You will see there is little air working on the sides of the bullet as the pressure wave from the nose forces air away from the sides to come back behind the bullet and burble as drag. The flatter the nose, the farther out the wave goes. Shooting revolvers does not give us the luxery of a drag free bullet. Drag is at the front and behind our boolits, not on the sides to hold the boolit in line.
You can't even compare to an arrow! The arrow creates its own spin and it is correct even when the arrow loses velocity. Shoot an arrow 300 yd's and watch it, discounting wind drift. It will always fly straight.
A strong wind will push the back of the arrow sideways but the tip tries to stay in line with the target even though the whole arrow will drift. There will be NO wobble. There is also no rotation around the flight path because the air over the vanes is controlling the spin no matter what the velocity. Spin is always a perfect match.
Once a boolits leaves the muzzle it is spinning as fast as it ever will, no more spin or velocity can pe imparted on it, thats it, it is done right there. There are no feathers on the tail! It is up to us to match the boolit to what it needs BEFORE it leaves the muzzle.
You can't sit in an armchair and come up with theories, Neither can you read gun rags for answers. You have to SEE FOR YOURSELF what is going on.

Well, I had a nice long reply typed up and lost it! Short version, I'm not sure you're seeing what you think you see. Experts keep saying we're seeing the shadow of the bullet in the disturbed air around it, not the actual bullet going down range and that the disturbed air lends it's own influence to what we think we see. What we interpret to be a corkscrew flight, (yes, I've seen it), may be that shadow in the disturbed air.#2- are you saying you can SEE a .45 or .50 caliber boolit at 3-400 meters? Or are you interpreting from target impacts. #3- Even though a boolits front pushes the air out of the way ( for lack of a better term) the air pressure alongside it and at the rear or lack of it for that matter, influence the boolit. A top doesn't have that issue in the same manner.# 4- Shoot an unbalanced or over stressed arrow and watch it in slow motion. No way, no how you can say it doesn't wobble all over the place. Arrows don't always stay point on perfect if everything isn't balanced. Stick a big 2 bladed broadhead on it and watch them land all over the target. Play with it till the vanes and broadhead are in sync and the groups shrink. That's your rifling analogy and I agree.

We're arguing minutiae and theory and it doesn't address the opening post- Given perfect boolits and guns I would bet the most streamlined boolit design will be most accurate. Being able to discern the differences between a RNFP and SWC would require a lot of testing. There are very few of us that have the time and interest to go through that. You found what works for you and I won't say you're wrong, I just don't know if I agree with ALL of it. Fit is still king and until we address that issue the rest is unimportant.

I'm not saying you're WRONG. I'm saying using a top or a gyro for an example is a poor choice. I've heard this for years and I have to disagree. Similar- maybe. Just like a gyro- no way. A top hunts around for a spot to sit on that will work for it's tip. Spin a top an a rough surface and it won't sit just anywhere, it finds a valley or low spot that fits the tip. A boolit doesn't do that. A gyroscope on a jeweled bearing doesn't have that issue but neither does it have air pressure, barrel vibrations, wind, drag on it's rear section, etc to contend with, much less falling RPM and velocity since it's got that power source keeping it's speed constant.

Like I said, minutiae.

[44man]

Yes, Bret, you can see the actual bullet base from a revolver. With a jacketed bullet, if the sun is just right, you can watch it go downrange with the naked eye too, until it gets too far away. With a good scope the bullet can be followed all the way to the impact at 200 meters.
I lose a BPCR boolit at about 350 meters unless I turn the scope up high. That will extend it a little.
You can't see a high power rifle bullet.
But I want to get back to the arrow for fun here. I am the one that figured out how to tune a compound bow for perfect flight with a broadhead. I have the copyright for it.
You are talking an un-tuned arrow and that is just like a bad boolit fit.
Once I tune a bow to the arrow I can shoot any broadhead made. While working out my method I actually glued in a smaller insert in several arrows and when installing the broadheads I pushed sideways on them with the glue still hot. The heads were pointing quite a large amount sideways. I shot every arrow to the center of the spot at (A 1" piece of paper on the bale.) at 20 yd's. I then shot them 40 yd's and they flew straight.
As you know I always set out to disprove many things, like ghost hunters! :mrgreen:
If the arrow and bow are in tune, the head will not steer the arrow. One time I actuall hit the bullseye with an arrow that had a broadhead on it and NO VANES. PLEASE DON'T TRY THAT! VERY DANGEROUS.
So for all of you that think a broadhead must be perfectly straight and spin straight, it is a waste of time just like weighing perfectly cast boolits. Tuning a bow is just like tuning a load and boolit to the twist. If an arrow will not tune it is the wrong arrow for the bow. I can't say it any easier. Also remember, steerage is on the back of the arrow, you can't tune a broadhead with 2" vanes and expect consistancy because even if tuned to perfection, the human element is still behind the string. Use 5" vanes!
Injecting all of the variables that cause problems does not solve what you want to accomplish or help those that can't make a gun shoot. Our job is to remove those variables that make a boolit perform badly. To question what I have observed for many years means you have not seen it for yourselves.
Once a perfectly loaded round is made, case tension, boolit fit, hardness, etc, match of bullet length and velocity to the twist rate is the MOST important aspect of everything you do from then on.
Why do revolver shooters forget about twist? :confused: Why do some gun makers put the wrong twist in their guns?
Explain why Marlin put a 1 in 38" twist in their .44!!!!!! I found out why. [smilie=1: Some pencil neck at a desk figured it out on paper and by reading out of date formulas. They actually sent me a paper showing why it should work---made me pour a drink right quick! :drinks:

[Bret4207]

Okay, fine, whatever. You can see a boolits base at 300 yards, good for you. Would you like to address the gyro/top analogy? I'm sure I"'m completely wrong there too.

[44man]

Well, you say the point of the top is hunting for a crack to run in but what happens when it is spun on a polished surface? What happens if you round off and polish the point?
I know you have played with a toy gyroscope and when it was really spun up it it rotated in a circle even with the end staying in place until the spin came down a little so it ran true. If you never had one, you are too young! [smilie=1:
You can't compare a motorized aircraft gyro because the RPM's are set. A gyro running true resists any attempt to change it's direction just as a bullet running true tries to resist moving off course.
Yes, I would say you are wrong!
You have to agree that once a top, a gyro or a boolit loses spin, they all go nuts! :Fire: If you don't, get your hands on a smooth bore musket and shoot me some 200 yd groups! :mrgreen:

[Bret4207]

It runs around in a circle because of the side torque you put on it when you spun it!!! Not because it is unbalanced! Then it wobbles a bit until it finds a place that will work with the tip. I don't care if it's glass smooth or a brush finished sidewalk, it won't spin on an inclined surface. And a motorized gyro is a perfect example of what I'm talking about- it can't be compared to a boolit because it's mounted and doesn't have any outside influences to deal with!!! EXACTLY MY POINT. Thank you. I'm done.:killingpc

[44man]

I can't quit yet. If you take a toy gyro and spin it up, then hold it until the torque you applied by pulling the string is gone, then set it down, if it is spinning too fast it will rotate with the point in place. Eventually it goes to sleep. It is not because it is out of balance.
Now the aircraft gyro has constant outside influences on it which it tries to resist. Each motion of the plane applies a force to the gyro at which time it sends signals to the controls to correct the motion. It is never at rest, working all of the time against outside forces. The little bugger works it's butt off.
A boolit that has gone to sleep is at the point where outside influence has the least effect because the gyro action of the spin will resist change. Slow the spin and wind, air and gravity will have their way with the boolit.
A question for you! Shoot a boolit long range where the barrel is elevated at a high angle so the boolit rises high in it's arch. What is the position of the boolit in it's travel? Is it trying to stay parrallel to the earth or is the point following the arch? Why do you get round holes at long range instead of oblong holes?

[Bret4207]

Okay, I'm warm now. Sucky day hereabouts, everything froze up, tractors won't start, stock hungry. Anyway-



I can't quit yet. If you take a toy gyro and spin it up, then hold it until the torque you applied by pulling the string is gone, then set it down, if it is spinning too fast it will rotate with the point in place. How do you determine it's spinning too fast? By your explanation it should have no "too fast" speed, it should "go to sleep" as soon as the side torque is gone Eventually it goes to sleep. It is not because it is out of balance. It's out of balance until the side torque is "dissipated" (?). That still doesn't make a good analogy to a bullet at any speed!

Now the aircraft gyro has constant outside influences on it which it tries to resist. Each motion of the plane applies a force to the gyro at which time it sends signals to the controls to correct the motion. It is never at rest, working all of the time against outside forces. The little bugger works it's butt off. Not air pressure, shock waves, drag, etc. and that's the difference
A boolit that has gone to sleep is at the point where outside influence has the least effect because the gyro action of the spin will resist change. Slow the spin and wind, air and gravity will have their way with the boolit. But when does that start? If we spin it real fast at sub sonic speeds does it maintain the revolutions longer and become more accurate at those speeds you talked about earlier? How fast is fast? Is there an RPM threshold? Sounds like an RPM LIMIT from what you're saying, and with any bullet material! Again, a poor analogy to a top or gyro which was my point a couple posts back
A question for you! Shoot a boolit long range where the barrel is elevated at a high angle so the boolit rises high in it's arch. What is the position of the boolit in it's travel? Is it trying to stay parrallel to the earth or is the point following the arch? Why do you get round holes at long range instead of oblong holes?At extreme elevation you will get angled holes! That's part of where the air pressure and drag come in! Same with an arrow, and that's what I tried to say earlier. You must have shot arrows at 60+ yards. They have a definite angle to them, same as a boolit will.

Now, I agree on the "going to sleep" theory, I can agree they corkscrew in flight to an extent, I can agree that each boolit at a specific speed has a "perfect" RPM or twist in our case. What I don't agree with is the top/gyro analogy, that air pressure/vacuum and drag have no influence on a boolit ( the longer and more stream lined the bullet the more stable it should be- ballistic coefficient/sectional density). I don't believe any human being can actually see a boolit base in flight at more than a few tens of yards. We're talking objects of less than 1/2" in diameter. I can't see 1/2" holes on a target sometimes without a scope, much less against a range backdrop while in flight. Yes, I have "seen" bullets against the sky for a tiny fraction of a second, I have "seen" 22-250 bullets at 3500+fps! And of course I've seen shot gun wads too. But a near 3/4" inch wad slowing in flight to a few feet a second is a bit different than a 30 cal bullet or boolit at 300+ yards. It's much easier for me to believe, as the theory goes, that we're seeing the shadow of the bullet in the disturbed air, the "contrail" so to speak. I'm betting humid weather makes it easier to "see" the bullet. Take that "contrail", add in the spin of the bullet and some good light and I can see it being the shadow we see. Disrupted air and the bullets spin would sure make it look like it's corkscrewing wouldn't it? We need slow motion photography to prove this one way or the other. I could certainly be wrong, but the Phd./Dr. of whatever that laid out the shadow theory sure made sense.

[felix]

I have not see any "errors" in this thread so far. ... felix

[44man]

Bret, revolver boolits and BPCR boolits are SLOOOOW and can be seen. You won't see them until they are downrange a distance, can't pick them up at the gun. You must be in a spotters position too, next to or behind the shooter. It also depends on light. If it is wrong you only see the boolit for a short distance but when right you can follow it to the target.
One of the strangest things was when my friend shot his 30-30 TC at 200 meters. I would watch the boolit veer to the right so it was heading for the wrong ram, then it would swing back and center the one he was aiming at. Wind didn't matter either, it did the same thing every shoot.
Now that is beyond explanation and if we had not watched it over and over we would never believe it. We kept switching spotters so we could all laugh. Even had my friend watch as one of us shot his gun. It played hell with his windage adjustments at the other distances. At least he found out why he had to adjust windage so much.

[44man]

For fun someday, shoot a .44 with GC's or jacketed with the sun low, behind you. Shoot across a field, say 100 yd's. You will see the little copper spot go all the way down and hit with just your eyes. Looks like a tracer.

[Bret4207]

For fun someday, shoot a .44 with GC's or jacketed with the sun low, behind you. Shoot across a field, say 100 yd's. You will see the little copper spot go all the way down and hit with just your eyes. Looks like a tracer.

You're seeing reflected light which moves with mirage, shadow, etc. Yes, we think we see it, but how do we know what we think we see is accurate?

[Bret4207]

I have not see any "errors" in this thread so far. ... felix

Minutiae right? It's all theory.