Ford battery powered pick-up

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I saw the new Ford pick-up on TV and there was nothing under the hood. Where did they put the motor, or battery for that mater?

[MaryB]

Battery is down between the frame rails, motors are right at the axles, part of the differential or right at the wheel depending on design.

[gbrown]

What's the supposed range (in miles) of that thing? Wondering if they have the system where when there is no demand on the engine (s), that the engines turn and actually generate electricity to charge the battery. I have heard of that concept, but don't know if anyone employs it.

[ryanmattes]

Yeah, the motors are at each wheel, there's 4 electric motors, and they're small. So no central engine.

The batter is probably pretty big and heavy, but mounted on the frame, under the body, to keep the center of gravity low.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[ryanmattes]

What's the supposed range (in miles) of that thing? Wondering if they have the system where when there is no demand on the engine (s), that the engines turn and actually generate electricity to charge the battery. I have heard of that concept, but don't know if anyone employs it.That sounds more like a hybrid, where there's an engine that turns on when needed. In a pure electric, I know the Tesla generates electricity from braking to power the battery, but I'm not sure about taking energy off the motors, because that would cause the car to slow instead of roll, reducing efficiency.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[NSB]

Range is allegedly 300 miles…..under perfect conditions (new battery, level, etc). That would be greatly diminished if the AC unit or heater are being used, along with headlights, etc. As the batteries age the range would also diminish. Other than some city only use (city/town use with limited range, or local contractor) I can’t imagine anyone buying one of these. GM plans going all electric by 2035. I guess we can close all the National Parks, etc since no one will be taking road trips. Sell your hunting camp if you don’t have electric. Way too many roadblocks for a lot of folks. Do hippies and tree huggers drive trucks?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Range? You can run to town and do some errands a few times.

[ryanmattes]

Yeah, not terribly practical for a pickup truck yet. Especially if you want to tow anything. Although it would make perfect sense for something like a big, drive RV.

They're already expensive, so the cost of electric is less noticeable than the "luxury" features.

They're big and can carry a much larger battery.

Most people, most of the time, don't drive more that a few hundred miles a day, and then they park it and plug it in when they get there. So the typical driving behavior matches the specs.

Obviously, not everyone uses RVs that way, but they wouldn't be the target market.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[cabezaverde]

And I read you can run your house on the battery for 2 days in the event of a power outage.

[beshears]

Where are they going to get electricity to charge the batteries at 5:00 pm when everyone gets home for work. California can not keep power to everyone now without rolling blackouts.

[trebor44]

Manufacture of batteries. How is that eco-friendly. Bhopal? Another disaster in the future? Meltdowns (seen it with D cells)? Something to think about?

[jim147]

That sounds more like a hybrid, where there's an engine that turns on when needed. In a pure electric, I know the Tesla generates electricity from braking to power the battery, but I'm not sure about taking energy off the motors, because that would cause the car to slow instead of roll, reducing efficiency.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Not sure on this Ford but that is used to help with breaking on some to recharge the battery.

[Finster101]

Regenerative braking is used on many if not all hybrids and full electric vehicles. The power recovered is miniscule and aids in braking more so than actual generation.

[ryanmattes]

Yeah, no such thing as free lunch. Anything you do to generate electricity costs you momentum or drag or something else.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[imashooter2]

Where are they going to get electricity to charge the batteries at 5:00 pm when everyone gets home for work. California can not keep power to everyone now without rolling blackouts.

There is nothing green about electric cars. They cost oil and coal to make, the mining for the batteries is a blight on the planet and they are recharged with coal through a system that is already taxed to its breaking point.

They only sell because of fashion and government subsidies.

[Gator 45/70]

It's a truck, Set a 15 kw in the bed, Hook it up, Should get 8 hrs. drive time easily.

[Mal Paso]

It's a truck, Set a 15 kw in the bed, Hook it up, Should get 8 hrs. drive time easily.

Redneck Hybrid?

[ryanmattes]

It's a truck, Set a 15 kw in the bed, Hook it up, Should get 8 hrs. drive time easily.There's a point of diminishing returns with battery size, due to the weight. What they need is a denser storage (more kwh per unit size), but we're still waiting for that to be invented.

Actually, they have denser batteries. What pure electric cars need is a smaller, lighter battery with higher density that has a longer life, a higher charge/discharge rate, dissipates heat faster, and is cheaper to mass produce. That's what we're waiting for in order for electric to be capable of replacing an IC engine. It's a few years out, at least.

Incidentally, such a battery would also revolutionize a bunch of other things as well. There was a size limit to RC helicopters, because you couldn't run them on batteries because lead acid is too heavy. Now you can buy a tiny drone at Walmart for $20 because of the wide adoption of Li-ion batteries.

If battery tech gets good enough, electric will make sense. Just the reduced maintenance along would be worth it. But it won't be replacing my pickup in the next decade.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Cowhide]

There is nothing green about electric cars. They cost oil and coal to make, the mining for the batteries is a blight on the planet and they are recharged with coal through a system that is already taxed to its breaking point.

They only sell because of fashion and government subsidies.

The material that makes rechargeable batteries possible is mined in a part of Africa. The world turns a blind eye to the work conditions of the mining. Forced child labor since adults are to big to dig the little holes (mini mines) looking for a ore pocket. Since these mini mines are one time use, used until the ore pocket is dug out. They do not brace the walls or anything. So many children die of suffocation digging the ore.
There was a documentary about this almost six years ago. The U.N. was going to put a stop to the child forced labor but pocket books spoke. It was decided by Nations including the USA that robbing the resource from the 3rd world nation was ok to do, since it was needed to fight climate change. After all the children get paid the equivalent of .05 to .50 American dollars a day if they find a pocket of ore and how big the pocket is.

[imashooter2]

The material that makes rechargeable batteries possible is mined in a part of Africa. The world turns a blind eye to the work conditions of the mining. Forced child labor since adults are to big to dig the little holes (mini mines) looking for a ore pocket. Since these mini mines are one time use, used until the ore pocket is dug out. They do not brace the walls or anything. So many children die of suffocation digging the ore.
There was a documentary about this almost six years ago. The U.N. was going to put a stop to the child forced labor but pocket books spoke. It was decided by Nations including the USA that robbing the resource from the 3rd world nation was ok to do, since it was needed to fight climate change. After all the children get paid the equivalent of .05 to .50 American dollars a day if they find a pocket of ore and how big the pocket is.

The pictures of lithium mines I’ve seen are God awful pits that have devastated the land for miles around.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Regenerative Braking means you use the motors as generators, to slow the vehicle down, you may retrieve SOME of the power from doing that, in regular brakes you just convert the power to heat (and wear on the brake pads...) You don't regenerative brake while in normal operation, just when "braking", as that would be stupid and a waste of power.

[bakerjw]

Many e-vehicles use regenerative braking. You hit the brake pedal and the motors become generators to slightly recharge the battery.

Go look up zinc ion batteries. There were some breakthroughs with regard to dendrite growth. A couple of companies had been trying to get them to market and will likely get bought out or financially hobbled by those invested in lithium ion battery companies. Zinc is harmless and the batteries are pretty much non toxic. A bit heavier so not good for electronics. If I have several million to invest, it would be with those efforts.

[Sasquatch-1]

If I remember correctly, back in the seventies, Popular Mechanics did several articles on building hybrid electric cars. Of course back then all you had were the lead acid batteries of the day so you needed a light car with large space for batteries. Now as I remember it they would put as many batteries as possible in the car, take out the existing engine and replace it with something like a 15 horse B&S lawn mower engine. I think the drive motor was an old jet engine starter. There was at least a 200 amp alternator that was constantly turned buy the lawn mower engine.







Go look up zinc ion batteries. There were some breakthroughs with regard to dendrite growth. A couple of companies had been trying to get them to market and will likely get bought out or financially hobbled by those invested in lithium ion battery companies. Zinc is harmless and the batteries are pretty much non toxic. A bit heavier so not good for electronics. If I have several million to invest, it would be with those efforts.

These batteries would definitely start getting rid of the zinc wheel weights that have plaque us for quite some time now.

[Daekar]

Some interesting statements on here, some spot on and some less so.

1. Mining for existing Lithium ion technology isn't great for the environment. However, if you believe that CO2 emissions are responsible for changing the climate, it is by far the lesser of two evils... and if you don't, I'm still not convinced that it's that big a deal. It's gotten a lot of press, but it's really little different from any other mining operation that nobody pays attention to. It is accurate to say that Cobalt in particular is a problem from a constrained resources and abuse of workers perspective, but do you really believe that the same bleeding heart hippies who view the entire world through the lens of climate change and identity politics don't also care about poor miserable child labor in undeveloped countries? Of course they do. There is a remarkable amount of engineering work going into alternative battery chemistries, and almost none of the new options involve Cobalt because there are loads of reasons to keep it out of your supply chain.

2. Generally speaking, ALL electric cars keep their battery packs in a "skateboard" structure beneath the body of the car. This keeps the mass very low and improves practically every aspect of the engineering, manufacturing, and user experience. Old assumptions about car layouts need to be completely discarded when you're talking electric, that "skateboard" makes the possible layouts very flexible and makes it easy to share the same underlying platform between models.

3. Range is an issue. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you an electric car/truck, or values your conversion to electric at a higher rate than the truth. However, it is not an issue in all situations - in fact, I would assert that in some geographies for some people, it will never be an issue even for the electric F-150.

For example, I commute to work through the Appalachian Mountains each day, a round trip of about 42 miles daily. I might stop at the grocery store or the gun shop or something on the way home, and we have dance lessons two or three days a week, which is a round trip distance of, say, 15 miles. On a normal day, it would be no problem for me to go to work, pick up a huge load of mulch or cinder blocks or something in the bed, come home, unload, and take the same truck to dance. When I plug in to the 220V outlet already installed in my garage, I would easily be at 100% charge in the morning. I'm gonna be honest, that might make me boring, but that's what the vast majority of my life really looks like. Even on the weekends when we go hiking in the nearby mountains, we usually don't drive more than 150 miles on a trip. For 95% of my life and needs taking care of our 5 acres in the country, the EV F-150 would be fine. If you live in the plains states where the distance between houses or towns is measured in fractions of a light-year, or somewhere that is intimately familiar with arctic air currents for a lot of the year, your needs might be very different.

Road trips are going to be a problem for everyone. The charging infrastructure isn't good enough, especially for any electric car without a Tesla badge on it. Check out the recent Engineering Explained video on EVs if you want more specific information, but the long and short of it is that nobody but Tesla has an overall system which keeps the time added to travel time to what I consider an acceptable level. When we go on road trips, we do NOT spend 45 to 75 minutes somewhere every time we stop, I don't know who in the hell actually does that on a trip or why EV proponents think it's acceptable - it's not.

Towing is also going to be a problem except over short distances. The energy density of batteries just isn't high enough yet. Not only do large towing loads absolutely tank your drag coefficient, but any time you go up a hill the work (as measured in joules, like in science class) that the vehicle has to do scales linearly with the mass of the truck/trailer assembly... so you should expect a drop in range when towing anything big, and a precipitous drop when towing something big in hills or mountains. That's not so different from an ICE truck since they are also subject to the same laws, the only problem is that for the EV the range is already shorter and charging takes longer, so the consequences are tougher to manage.

[Thumbcocker]

I have always wondered if some type of easily changed battery module would work. Stop at a station and swap out your low module for a charged one.

[snowwolfe]

Learned an interesting fact last week. In order for these batteries to stay in "optimum" condition they should only be charged to 80% and not be discharged below 20%. That gives you a safe range of 60% of the rated range. Use the AC or heater often and the range is even lower. Plus time deteriorates batteries so range will only get worse the longer you own the vehicle.
EV's can make sense for some people. I'll use my son for an example. He commutes about 20 miles to work every day and while at work he would not have to pay for charging.
Read a story last week about a family on a 1100 mile road trip in each direction. They mentioned the GPS would lead them to dedicated super charges. If I am going on a road trip, I'll decide which roads to take.

[NSB]

Hydrogen powered vehicles would prove to be the better choice of fuel all the way around. Burn it and you get water and no other byproducts. It can be produced by wind, solar, and nuclear and it’s a never ending resource. Electric vehicles are simply a cash cow for the auto companies and the companies making/selling batteries. I recently saw a picture of a couple thousand government electric. vehicles in France all sitting in a field. They had batteries that were no longer any good and the vehicles looked pretty new. It costs about as much to replace the battery as it does to put another vehicle on the road. Right now, they’re just starting to develop the technology and resources to recycle the batteries in these vehicles along with other LI batteries. There’s simply no free lunch in electric.

[Lloyd Smale]

Regenerative braking is used on many if not all hybrids and full electric vehicles. The power recovered is miniscule and aids in braking more so than actual generation.

yup i read an article (dont remember the brand) where they used a convectional system and compared it to regenerative system. The standard one had a 120 mile all electric range. the regenerative unit added 2 miles to the range. Hardly worth the expense. Theres no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. About the best benifit to a system like that is less wear on your brakes. Im sure no electric car expert and if i live my life right hope to never be but it almost seems to me a better way to gain range would be a torque converter or clutch that would actually allow your car to free wheel disconnected from the motor.

[country gent]

I see the electric the same as steam power. While it is getting better People are going to have to learn to plan in charging time and work around it. It sounds good chargung at night while asleep but if everyone does that then the power grid is overloaded every night.

I use 2 electriic wheel chairs daily one is lithium Ion batteries and very light for smooth surfaces. The other is heavy AGM batteries on tracks and rough surface. The light one will do about a full week on a charge. The track about 3 days. Both take close to a full 8 hours to recharge and are down while charging. The track chair can carry a small portable generator and operate. I just replaced the 2 100 amp hour agm batteries in the track at close to $700.00. But panning in charge time and getting it done is similar to the old steam powered tractors and power plants.

To many will work on partial charges and destroy batteries or end up stranded. Both my chairs when partially recharged show a full charge on the controller first off but in 10-15 mins they make a big drop on the gauge. Unlike the IC car that take 10-15 mins to recharge the electric requires more time.

[Daekar]

I have always wondered if some type of easily changed battery module would work. Stop at a station and swap out your low module for a charged one.

That's actually one of the things that has been proposed. Look up aluminum-air batteries for a very compelling picture... they're non-rechargable, but are so energy-dense and easy to make that you'd change out the battery like you used to change your oil. The idea is that they would be easily recyclable and could make use of the existing gas station networks - retrofitted to install the cells, of course. I love the idea of charging my car at home, but if I end up with a zero-maintenance vehicle that requires a cheap battery install every few thousand miles my feelings aren't going to be hurt.

[Daekar]

Hydrogen powered vehicles would prove to be the better choice of fuel all the way around. Burn it and you get water and no other byproducts. It can be produced by wind, solar, and nuclear and it’s a never ending resource. Electric vehicles are simply a cash cow for the auto companies and the companies making/selling batteries. I recently saw a picture of a couple thousand government electric. vehicles in France all sitting in a field. They had batteries that were no longer any good and the vehicles looked pretty new. It costs about as much to replace the battery as it does to put another vehicle on the road. Right now, they’re just starting to develop the technology and resources to recycle the batteries in these vehicles along with other LI batteries. There’s simply no free lunch in electric.

The problem with hydrogen is that it's SUPER hard to distribute and store, and the energy density per unit volume is horrifically low. It is also inefficient to produce. Hydrogen might be adopted for some areas where compliance with government directives leaves no other viable options with today's technology, but it probably will not be adopted on a large scale.

On the other hand, I'd rather see hydrogen than more ethanol mandates. The whole biofuels thing is a complete cluster - it consumes absurd amounts of water, it screws with the food market, it's hard on the soil, it consumes lots of fertilizer, and it's so inefficient that it's a net-negative energy system.

[Fishman]

Gas automobiles weren't particularly useful when first invented, there was grass hay and water everywhere for horses but no filling stations. Yet here we are. I'm sure people had the same sort of conversations about that as we are having here.

I've considered buying an electric car for commuting and such, while keeping a nice truck for long distance travel and real work. I live almost 30 miles to work as does the wife on the opposite end of town, so commuting together is difficult and not very useful. But a small used electric car can be had for not much money and I have plenty of charging infrastructure at my house and cheap electricity. I'm not saying I will do it, I'm just saying that it does make financial sense when you crunch the numbers. Even accounting for reduced range, a mile traveled with an electric car is way cheaper than gas. If that car is cheap to buy and maintain, that is also a positive.

[Fishman]

I happen to really like the new Ford Lightning and if the base model does come in at a cost of $30k, that will be something. I'd wager that most of us have a "home range" of a 50 mile radius where we do 90%+ of our living. With a 200 mile range for the base model, most people would see little issues with that truck as a daily driver as long as they had 220 at their house. Think about it, your truck would always be full of "gas" and ready to go, no stopping at the gas station to fill up, it does it while you sleep. As long as you have a second gas vehicle to cover the rest of your needs, no big deal. I know there are quite a few of us who only have a single vehicle, and maybe an electric vehicle isn't the right choice for them at this time.

I'm no expert, just thinking about the practical implications of this new technology and some of them could be pretty nice.

[blackthorn]

I do not know what the situation is where you-all live, but here there are road taxes on each gallon of fuel we use. These taxes are used (assumedly at least) to support the roadway system. There seems to be a trend of thought that electric vehicles are going to be cheap to own/operate but my thought is there is NO free lunch and there will be some form of taxation to make sure there is no overall reduction in our cost in the long term.

[1hole]

There is nothing green about electric cars. They cost oil and coal to make, the mining for the batteries is a blight on the planet and they are recharged with coal through a system that is already taxed to its breaking point.

They only sell because of fashion and government subsidies.

It's called "Virtue Signalling".

Battery powered vehicles are a smug way for overly eddicated and innerlectsul (but ignorant) folk to show the world what fine people they are OR to expose how really stupid they are. Fact is, like adding alcohol to gasoline, battery vehicles are a net loss to the environment.

No matter what they drive, you can easily spot most "progressive" female wackos by counting the "feel good" bumper stickers they display.

[Gator 45/70]

Redneck Hybrid?

Hey, Just thinking ahead of the curve,One has to make certain calls to maximize its true potential !
Heck,I could probably make it to your place on 3 tanks of fuel in the new and exciting on-board generator?

[toallmy]

I do not know what the situation is where you-all live, but here there are road taxes on each gallon of fuel we use. These taxes are used (assumedly at least) to support the roadway system. There seems to be a trend of thought that electric vehicles are going to be cheap to own/operate but my thought is there is NO free lunch and there will be some form of taxation to make sure there is no overall reduction in our cost in the long term.

I'm glad to see someone mention the road tax , state and federal combined here in Virginia runs around 2 cent a mile if you get around 20 miles a gallon . So a truck driver paying 3-4 cent a mile on his 10 mile per gallon rig pays for the road to be repaired .

[Fishman]

It's called "Virtue Signalling".

Battery powered vehicles are a smug way for overly eddicated and innerlectsul (but ignorant) folk to show the world what fine people they are OR to expose how really stupid they are. Fact is, like adding alcohol to gasoline, battery vehicles are a net loss to the environment.

No matter what they drive, you can easily spot most "progressive" female wackos by counting the "feel good" bumper stickers they display.

As long as people keep thinking that's the only reason why someone would buy an electric vehicle, "normal" folk won't want to buy them and have to put up with that stigma. I don't give a flying flip what anyone else drives, why should anyone care what I drive? Maybe I just want to try it out? Having conservative values does not require one to long for the days of the horse and buggy. Well, maybe that is too modern for some, perhaps the musk oxen and stone-wheeled cart.

[MaryB]

I have always wondered if some type of easily changed battery module would work. Stop at a station and swap out your low module for a charged one.

Swap your 5k mile pack for a 100k mile that is on its last legs... nope no thanks!

[Daekar]

As long as people keep thinking that's the only reason why someone would buy an electric vehicle, "normal" folk won't want to buy them and have to put up with that stigma. I don't give a flying flip what anyone else drives, why should anyone care what I drive? Maybe I just want to try it out? Having conservative values does not require one to long for the days of the horse and buggy. Well, maybe that is too modern for some, perhaps the musk oxen and stone-wheeled cart.

I agree, this attitude is a bit behind the times. Electric vehicles aren't like your hippie neighbor's Prius. If you want the best performance in the world from a vehicle, you're buying electric. The 0-60 and 1/4 miles times are unreal, the performance versions are 4WD so you can put your eyeballs at the back of your head without smoking your tires, and even places like Pike's Peak are dominated by EVs.

I'm a cheap and lazy bastard that likes good power and performance from my vehicles. If a battery powered car can get me out of gas station trips, oil changes, transmission services, failed MAF sensor replacements, oxygen sensor failures, fuel system cleanings, fuel filter changes, injector changes, glow plug changes, timing belt services, drop my cost/mile AND make me giggle when I press that pedal to the floor, I'm all over it. EVs won't win with the average Joe because of virtue signaling, they're going to win because they will just be better. There are some real rough spots in the user experience right now, but there is so much money being thrown at them (for good reasons or bad reasons, take your pick) that those are not going to stay a problem.

[Daekar]

Swap your 5k mile pack for a 100k mile that is on its last legs... nope no thanks!

None of the hotswappable battery technology under serious discussion is rechargeable, this wouldn't be a thing thankfully.

[1hole]

... "normal" folk won't want to buy them and have to put up with that stigma. I don't give a flying flip what anyone else drives, why should anyone care what I drive?

I don't care what anyone drives but it seems funny to me that anyone would buy anything based on what anyone else might think. Perhaps especially so if they want others to think they're smart buying an electric to save both money and the environment.

My late animal vet's very nice wife sought that with their first Prius; some of her happy glow faded when the batteries died just a bit after the warranty died. Her do-good glow went out when the expensive second battery pack also died.


Maybe I just want to try it out?

Then by all means get one. ???


Having conservative values does not require one to long for the days of the horse and buggy. Well, maybe that is too modern for some, perhaps the musk oxen and stone-wheeled car.

Seems your definition of "conservative" is derived from typical "liberal" slander. Fact is, conservatives embrace new things as much as anyone, difference between libs and conservatives is libs want "change" for the sake of change, no matter if it's good or bad.

Conservatives want new things that are actually better and more cost effective than the old things; neither is true for electric autos.

I don't mind the money that libs toss at their own electric autos but I resent that mine and other's tax money is being used to fund their foolish "green" virtue signaling experiments that are known to be net losers for the environment.


As a plodding ol' oxen cart driver, I wonder if you, as a functional modern lib, have seen any of the recent wave of "wonderful, new, modern, energy saving" government subsidized (and mandated) curlicue lamp bulbs filled with toxic innereds?

Seems the current rapid shift to LED lamps is not only much better in all respects but, so far as I KNOW, they're not even tax subsidized by modern lib politicians striving to be seen saving the world from the supposed ravages of CO2 and the horrid (but strongly questioned) world wide temp increase of about 1.5 degrees over the last 50 years. ;)

[rbuck351]

Well I have a 1 ton dually Cummins that will go 350 to 400 miles per fill up pulling a large load up steep hills at speed. Then it takes 5 minutes to fill up and back on the road for another 350 to 400 miles. Or if I'm going through Canada to AK I can put 3 drums of fuel in the bed and drive through without stopping for fuel. And if I turn on the programmer I can smog out anyone following to close. Try any of that with any electric vehicle.
When they get a battery that will pull a load like that Cummins and for as far as it will go on 30 gallons of fuel without a recharge, I might be interested if the cost is reasonable.

[Sasquatch-1]

When my wife was working, one of her co-worker purchased a Chevy volt at the beginning of the summer. She would come to work and brag about not having to buy gas and how great the car was. Flash forward to the beginning of winter. The car was on charge all night in her garage on a very cold night. She went out hopped in her car got about three miles from the house and had to call a tow truck because the cold weather killed the battery instantly. Now this wasn't in Michigan, North Dakota or Montana, this was in Gaithersburg Maryland just outside Washington, D. C.

If I wanted to go from here in Martinsburg, WV to where my son lives about halfway between Pittsburg and Erie, I would probably have to make it a two day trip just so I could stop somewhere and charge the battery...if I could find a hotel that has a charging station.

[Daekar]

When my wife was working, one of her co-worker purchased a Chevy volt at the beginning of the summer. She would come to work and brag about not having to buy gas and how great the car was. Flash forward to the beginning of winter. The car was on charge all night in her garage on a very cold night. She went out hopped in her car got about three miles from the house and had to call a tow truck because the cold weather killed the battery instantly. Now this wasn't in Michigan, North Dakota or Montana, this was in Gaithersburg Maryland just outside Washington, D. C.

If I wanted to go from here in Martinsburg, WV to where my son lives about halfway between Pittsburg and Erie, I would probably have to make it a two day trip just so I could stop somewhere and charge the battery...if I could find a hotel that has a charging station.

While cold weather performance can be an issue with all existing battery technology, that story sounds to me like a reason not to buy a Chevy rather than an lesson on all EVs. A properly designed car would have kept the battery warm while plugged in, for one thing, and the battery heaters would throttle back a bit during the drive because the internal cell resistance would generate some heat as they discharged.

Remember that until Tesla proved it could be done better, all EVs were launched as compliance cars, they were never intended to be anything else. Even after Tesla came on the scene, the culture shift in existing auto makers was (and still is, sometimes) a huge problem, from management fighting the innovator's dilemma all the way down to the guy who spent his whole career learning to maintain traditional engines.

[Handloader109]

Read article about the ford truck, I think consumer reports, at any rate, it was estimated that range would be under 100 miles if truck was truly loaded. Winter is a killer, which is why you see most electrics in the southwest. It isnt even using a heater or ac, it is just that cold kills batteries. ALL types. Put your cell phone outside and see what happens. If you like a 100 mile top range, buy an electric and be prepared to be let down quickly

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[pmer]

I've wondered about a battery powered pulling tractor. Weight shouldn't be an issue for 7K.-10k LB classes. I guess there's a couple lawn mower sized EVs pulling out there. I pull an Oliver tractor in some antique farm classes but would have to go in an open class with a EV I'm sure. It would only have to run at full power for 2-3 minutes at the most.

I could see guys "chipping" that Ford truck EV and making their tires go bald lol. Or maybe pulling with them at truck pulls. Though not very practical for every day use that way.

[Lloyd Smale]

Gas automobiles weren't particularly useful when first invented, there was grass hay and water everywhere for horses but no filling stations. Yet here we are. I'm sure people had the same sort of conversations about that as we are having here.

I've considered buying an electric car for commuting and such, while keeping a nice truck for long distance travel and real work. I live almost 30 miles to work as does the wife on the opposite end of town, so commuting together is difficult and not very useful. But a small used electric car can be had for not much money and I have plenty of charging infrastructure at my house and cheap electricity. I'm not saying I will do it, I'm just saying that it does make financial sense when you crunch the numbers. Even accounting for reduced range, a mile traveled with an electric car is way cheaper than gas. If that car is cheap to buy and maintain, that is also a positive.

but to do it you still need another real vehicle if your going to do more then your 30 mile trip to work. So that cheap electric isnt replacing the cost its adding to it. That and i never heard electricity was cheap in texas and after that last fiasco we know your system isnt capable of taking care of a car in every house hold. And truth be told most homes have 100 amp services and to keep a car or two charged your going to need to upgrade your transformer the wire to your home and your service panel. Your probably (if your not an electrician) looking at 5-10k. Even if you are an electrician or capable your still going to pay the power company a big chunk to upgrade your transformer and service wire. Then when all your neighbor decide to join you your distribution power lines will need to be upsized. ALL the transformers and even your substation supplying the power and most likely even the transmission lines comming from the power plant and then you will face the fact that we already dont have enough power plants and the liberals arent letting new ones be built. Somewhere along your journey into this fallacy i hope you run into the power fairy because thats what the liberals are relying on today.

Bottom line is if they force this on us your electric bills are going to go through the roof to pay for all of these upgrades and even then unless they allow nuke or coal plants to be built your going to be rationed and have to decide what youd rather do. Drive to work tommarow or have heat and lights tonight. Then when you decide dont pretend your being green because that power plant is still polluting. I worked in the power industry as a power plant operator for 6 years and a lineman for 26. this isnt my first rodeo. When some of you say your willing to sit back quietly and let them push this on us before we are even close to being able to do it efficiently and economically you are just supporting the liberal socialist lies of people like aoc and sanders. You are doing nothing but cutting your own throat. A refernce was made to cars not being effiecent at first. Well the facts are they probably werent. But they didnt ban horses and make people buy cars before there werent gas stations and a system to supply them either. People who bought them knew they had to source gas and didnt buy them until they did and most who did buy a model A didnt go out in the back 40 and shoot there horse in the head either. Kind of chuckle at the fact were going full circle. in the 1800s you could run your horse a few hours then it had to graze for hours and take a snooze. Modern man did better. We devolped cars that could be fed in 5 minutes never had to sleep and could drive cross country just with quick 5 minutes stops to refuel non stop.

Now we circle back to being able to go a 100 miles then stopping for an hour while our car grazes and thats if we can find some grass. Can you imagine the size ACREAGE it would take to put up a charging stations in a city that a major freeway goes through. Just picture one during rush hour. You would have to have charging stations with a HUNDREDS of charging stations or youd have line ups from down town ny to the bronxs. they would have to build motels there and youd have to stop and get a number and a room and get called when it was your turn.

This is what in the real world your asking for when you try to defend this lunacy. Every single one who is willing to be a sheep is another nail in the coffin of the middle class. What there true goal is is to take away the most powerful tool the middle class has and thats mobility. They will make it so ALL you can do is take your little glorified go cart to work and back and what they dont get in taxes you will pay in electric bills which the welfare trash will get paid for them. They will be playing music and chilling there beers while you bust your chops working to just to pay your bills virtually eliminating the middle class. Pleasure drives? Vacations? Taking a ride to see your parents or kids?? That will be only for the wealthy. Open your eyes before its to late!! Just remember which side of this war were in today supports this bs and the insane new green deal. It blows my mind that anyone other then a few token liberals we have would support our government being able to dictate to us what kind of a car or truck we have to drive and dictate to the car manufactures what kind of cars and trucks they have to make so we loose our freedom of choice!!!!! Whats next? To save the planet we hall have to wear government uniforms that create less pollution then wranglers to make we all have to buy the same brand of fridge freezer tv because some polititian is in cohoots with that manufacture!! Atvs utvs snowmobiles harleys boats all banned because they use fossil fuels!! Wood or gas heat? Unless your wealthy youd better stock up on blankets!!! This is what your asking for. Not even a tiny bit less.

this is not one bit different then the liberals attack on our guns. They pick one thing to take away from us. Lets say bump stocks. You get the sheep that say i can live without them so ill sit back and let it happen. Then there banned. Next they say high capacity mags. Enough say oh well i like lever guns and revolvers so who cares and those sheep sit back. There banned. Next is ars then 742s and 1100s. Then they bring up the fact that revolvers' and lever guns were guns of the military too. Before you know it all you sheep are in the corral and just an attempt to get out and your the leg of lamb on the rotisserie tomorrow at supper. If you WANT an electric car it sure should be your right to have one. But I shouldnt have to pay more taxes, more electric bills, pay chev more for my silverado to fund the development of your go cart and pay more so they can sell it to you for less then it cost them to build it. If you want it YOU pay for it. Id bet if the goverment didnt force all this stuff that little go cart would cost your 50 or 60k and not a single one cheering would even take a second look at this completely impractical at todays technology lunicy. A closer comparison right now then someone who bought one of the first model As and kept his horse for when he could find gas would be to stick a tesla in a time machine and send it back and sit it on the shore where the pilgrims landed and hope they can produce enough corn to power it without starving. the truth is staring you right in the face. Just look at the powerful and the politicians in this country that are pushing this. Look in there garage. See what they drive. That is the ones that dont travel around in limos with secret service escorts and jet around the world in private jets with only two or three people on board. They are making laws for you that they dont think apply to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snowwolfe]

Like it or not, EV's are coming. Within 10 years most major gas franchise stations will require owners to remodel and expand so they can have a bank of chargers. The businesses with the most chargers will get the most business. Movie theaters, malls, even the doctor and dentist offices. If owners can't charge while they shop, eat, or be treated they will go where they can charge.
Range will continue to improve and charging times will decrease.

There would be some advantages to owning a EV. No more oil changes, very little maintenance. The perfect customer is someone who drives under 150 miles a day and will slow charge the car at night when the rates are lower. Face it, 95% of America falls into this group except for the occasional road trip.

[Gator 45/70]

Ask the good people of Texas just how well these spiffy EV's did in the floods last year.
Most evacuated in their old knuckle dragg'n gas burners only to return to a burned down home.
Yep, You guessed it, The spiffy EV caught fire just sitting there in the rising flood waters.

[Dunross]

I am one of those interested in an electric vehicle. They're not quite ready yet for what I want, but I am watching them.

The beginning of the twentieth century had very little infrastructure in place for gasoline or diesel powered vehicles. Not even roads! It took a few decades for all of that to come into being.

I will probably always have at least one liquid fueled vehicle simply because there are times I need more range, load capacity, towing power, etc than what an electric vehicle can produce. Outside of those times though an electric vehicle will suit my needs better than a gasoline powered vehicle - once their range and carrying capacity improves a bit more.

[NSB]

GM’s Mary What’s Her Name has decided that GM will be all electric vehicles by 2035 IIRC. We’ll see if the buying public supports that commitment. I think if I was holding GM stock I’d be looking at selling and buying something else. I think she’s oblivious to how many people in this country use cars and trucks for more than short commutes to and from work.

[Daekar]

GM’s Mary What’s Her Name has decided that GM will be all electric vehicles by 2035 IIRC. We’ll see if the buying public supports that commitment. I think if I was holding GM stock I’d be looking at selling and buying something else. I think she’s oblivious to how many people in this country use cars and trucks for more than short commutes to and from work.

I don't know, I think she might be doing the right thing. Remember that in the auto market, government regulation is at least as important as demand from users. If regulation continues on its current trajectory, and I don't see any reason to believe that it won't, then there will be incredible pressure to switch to EV. The change required from a manufacturing standpoint is so huge that a company can't afford to half-ass it... they can either throw all their resources into the effort now, or they will be stomped into the ground when stricter regulations hit the books.

Maybe she's wrong about the future, but chances are good that she is not. The people in power have decided that we're going to ditch ICEs as soon as possible, and positioning her company to align with that is probably a wise move.

Remember, they don't ultimately care if poor rural folks are stuck in a tight spot. Or any poor folks, really... as long as they get the votes.

[MaryB]

I see the push to EV's as foolish when ICE technology is providing cleaner running and more efficient engines every 10 years.

My 2001 F150, 5.4 Triton. 235hp and 330ft pounds of torque, and around 16mpg

Fast forward 16 years

My 2017 Escape with a 2.0l Direct injection turbo charged Ecoboost engine that is a proven reliable design being hot rodded well over 450hp on a stock block assembly. Stock it is 245hp and 275 foot pounds of torque and I am averaging 23mpg despite being a lead foot!

What will the next 10 years bring in engine design? The ecoboost I drive now is pretty dang clean running.

[reddog81]

Well I have a 1 ton dually Cummins that will go 350 to 400 miles per fill up pulling a large load up steep hills at speed.

But realistically less than 1% of vehicles sold today can do that.

Electric vehicles could easily replace 90% of the driving that most people do and you'd never notice much of a difference. Not many people drive 300+ miles per day. I have no interest in one currently, but would be willing to replace one of my households vehicles with one if it made economic sense.

[jimlj]

Swap your 5k mile pack for a 100k mile that is on its last legs... nope no thanks!

My thoughts exactly. That is the reason I jealously guard my rechargeable drill batteries when working with others who have the same brand of tool.

[jimlj]

I arnt even got a kinkos to copy my voter ID. Howz i sposta charg up a lectirc car to drove 10 miles to vote?? Heck, the outhouse aint even got water cept when it rains.

With today's technology an EV is not practical for me. Before retiring I drove an average of 200 miles a day for my work. To go to ANY other town, its a 80 mile round trip. To go to the any city with a population of over 15,000 people is a 180 mile round trip. There are maybe two months a year where you can comfortably drive without heat or AC. That would cause concern to go anywhere, and could be deadly when it is 20 or more below zero outside. Till the technology catches up with the politicians mouths, I'll stick to my gasoline and diesel burners.

[GregLaROCHE]

So if there’s nothing under the hood, does that give you a trunk in your pickup?

[megasupermagnum]

I am one of those interested in an electric vehicle. They're not quite ready yet for what I want, but I am watching them.

The beginning of the twentieth century had very little infrastructure in place for gasoline or diesel powered vehicles. Not even roads! It took a few decades for all of that to come into being.

I will probably always have at least one liquid fueled vehicle simply because there are times I need more range, load capacity, towing power, etc than what an electric vehicle can produce. Outside of those times though an electric vehicle will suit my needs better than a gasoline powered vehicle - once their range and carrying capacity improves a bit more.

People have been trying to make electric cars a viable thing since about 1832. They have failed now for 189 years, the horse proved to be a much more reliable form of transportation.

Look, I'm an electronics guy. I went to school for automation. I'm currently an electrician apprentice. I like electric motors. That said, electric motor technology is not THAT advanced, and the big killer is we are kind of stalled on battery technology, the same cause of death of every other electric vehicle for a couple centuries. I'm not against electric cars, but until they can reasonably go 1000 miles on a charge, and be easy enough to change a battery in an emergency, they are not a practical form of transportation for anyone outside of a major city. On top of that, I can't in my right mind get behind increasing lithium mining in the form it is today. From what I've seen of battery advancements, we are decades away from meeting that goal. We need to find a more sustainable material to make batteries from, ideally recyclable, and it needs to be able to provide better capacity than our current lithium batteries. I really doubt any one of us no matter how young, will ever live to see a practical electric driven pickup truck.

I have been in the past a supporter of hydrogen, but I've changed my mind. While on a vehicle level, it makes perfect sense. Hydrogen is cheap, burns super clean, and otherwise functions the same as gasoline. The idea of it being hard to store, or dangerous, or whatever are nonsense. That's like the guys in Oregon crying that the state is going to burn down because now they have to pump their own gasoline. If you can handle gasoline and propane, you can handle hydrogen. The big problem I've come to learn is that there is no clean way to produce hydrogen at the moment. As it is today, most hydrogen comes as a byproduct from oil drilling. So far attempts to manufacture hydrogen other ways have proven ineffective for a large scale.

@reddog91 What gasoline car or trucks today can't go 350 miles on a tank? Also do not forget that it is then a 5 minute process to refill, and back on the road you go. Don't write off most people as stay-at-home's. I'd bet 90% of people with cars travel more than 100 miles in a single day, at least once a week.
While the current ranges for electric cars are at BEST 300 miles, that's round trip. Throw in some safety factor, and you are now stuck to at most 100 miles from home. It will get you to work and back, but now you have to buy a second car to go anywhere else, totally negating any "clean energy". Don't underestimate the amount of energy, and pollution it takes to manufacture a car.

Honestly I think the best thing people can do if they want to promote improving the environment, is to push bicycles and walking. I'll admit, I'm as lazy as anyone. I live about 5 miles from work, all flat, and roads not too busy. There is no reason at all I couldn't ride a bicycle to work 75% of the year. Until the technology catches up, trying to push electric cars is ludicrous. I'm not just talking about politicians. I can not understand why Ford would come out with this disaster of a truck and brag about it. Gasoline cars and trucks are incredibly clean, you can't just write off gas as old tech yet.

[reddog81]

@reddog91 What gasoline car or trucks today can't go 350 miles on a tank? Also do not forget that it is then a 5 minute process to refill, and back on the road you go. Don't write off most people as stay-at-home's. I'd bet 90% of people with cars travel more than 100 miles in a single day, at least once a week.

The quote said 350 miles in steep hills with a heavy load… FWIW the standard Tesla can go 250+miles on a charge. And I’d take that bet in a heart beat.

[Sasquatch-1]

The only way I can see electric vehicles completely replacing fuel vehicles of all types is if there is a major infrastructure change. I think we would have to see some sort of power induction system place in major roadways. Something similar to the old overhead power systems the trollies use, but this would be under ground and no direct contact would be needed. The technology is out there it would just be very expensive and then you have the problem of producing the electricity. Do we use evil coal?

Ahh, but then how would the greedy power companies be able to get their pound of flesh?

As a side note...If you have ever been stuck on the PA Turnpike on the Sunday after Thanksgiving I don't think your EV would be very efficient.

[Daekar]

As a side note...If you have ever been stuck on the PA Turnpike on the Sunday after Thanksgiving I don't think your EV would be very efficient.

Interestingly, that kind of thing is where they shine. When you're sitting still, you're not having to idle an engine, and the brake regen means that you recapture some of the energy you spend in the stop and go instead of just turning it to heat.

[Hossfly]

If I remember correctly, back in the seventies, Popular Mechanics did several articles on building hybrid electric cars. Of course back then all you had were the lead acid batteries of the day so you needed a light car with large space for batteries. Now as I remember it they would put as many batteries as possible in the car, take out the existing engine and replace it with something like a 15 horse B&S lawn mower engine. I think the drive motor was an old jet engine starter. There was at least a 200 amp alternator that was constantly turned buy the lawn mower engine.







These batteries would definitely start getting rid of the zinc wheel weights that have plaque us for quite some time now.

I remember that article, and IIRC one was about a heavy fly wheel that spun inside a vacuum chamber, very high rpm, the electric motor would spin up the fly wheel at first to get you moving. Then the small engine would take over when the batteries got low. Also the brake system would put energy into the fly wheel.

That same year was reading about a new technology called cell phone, where you could go down the road and talk from tower to tower without loosing the signal. Should have invested in that technology.

[Lloyd Smale]

Like it or not, EV's are coming. Within 10 years most major gas franchise stations will require owners to remodel and expand so they can have a bank of chargers. The businesses with the most chargers will get the most business. Movie theaters, malls, even the doctor and dentist offices. If owners can't charge while they shop, eat, or be treated they will go where they can charge.
Range will continue to improve and charging times will decrease.

There would be some advantages to owning a EV. No more oil changes, very little maintenance. The perfect customer is someone who drives under 150 miles a day and will slow charge the car at night when the rates are lower. Face it, 95% of America falls into this group except for the occasional road trip.

just like gun control it will only be forced on us if we allow it.

[Lloyd Smale]

The only way I can see electric vehicles completely replacing fuel vehicles of all types is if there is a major infrastructure change. I think we would have to see some sort of power induction system place in major roadways. Something similar to the old overhead power systems the trollies use, but this would be under ground and no direct contact would be needed. The technology is out there it would just be very expensive and then you have the problem of producing the electricity. Do we use evil coal?

Ahh, but then how would the greedy power companies be able to get their pound of flesh?

As a side note...If you have ever been stuck on the PA Turnpike on the Sunday after Thanksgiving I don't think your EV would be very efficient.

your very correct and what comes with it? Double or triple the taxes and double or triple the price you pay for power we pay and another nail in the coffin of the middle class.

[snowwolfe]

So if there’s nothing under the hood, does that give you a trunk in your pickup?

Yes, its called a frunk

[snowwolfe]

I bet ICE cars were the laughing stock of 99.9% of Americans during the first few years of the 20th century.

[1hole]

The bottom line question about electric cars is rarely discussed: how might they affect the CO2 level? The reason it isn't mentioned by the dominant liberal/fake news propaganda crowd is that electrics are not only unlikely to make much difference to world temps but the net difference will most likely be negative.

No one with his head on straight hopes for the day emergency electric vehicles start coming on line; God help anyone depending on a new fangled electric ambulance or fire truck or cop car with a dead battery!

However home recharging is done and how long it will require and how long the charge will last, the batteries MUST be charged or the magical vehicles are instantly useless. ALL dreamy promoter projections are based on the assumption that all things will remain as they are, i.e., a totally reliable electric power supply immediately at hand - and that is one very DUMM assumption!

The hopeful idea of using solar cells and windmills to charge storage cells to feed the high lines AND to supply our needed power when the weather doesn't live up to expectations is DUMM! No wind for a few days? Forget windmills. No sun for a few days? Forget solar.

A week of hurricane storm or wide area flooding will leave huge areas without meaningful surviving windmills OR cell farms. It often takes several weeks to restore damaged systems NOW and it will mean added weeks of no charged vehicle batteries in the affected areas. Add the time and costs of replacing thousands of acres of solar cells and destroyed wind farms and battery warehouses to the present time and costs to restore downed power lines and we'll see some huge increases in costs AND massive environmental damage just to get back to status quo.

That's a bad reality but even if no such destruction ever occurs (fat chance), solar cells and wind driven generators quickly degrade and demand huge routine maintinance costs.

Since it takes all our present electric systems can do to hold the line where we are it's obvious that if we depend on batteries to get us through a few long nights we must also have the present power system ready to take up the over the total load anytime the batteries collapse. We don't live in a vacuum, there is an unavoidable inneraction to everything; a Prius that could tow 6,000 pounds for 20 hours at 70 mph and gets 200 mpg is dead in its tracks if it can't be charged.

The ONLY way to assure our present levels of electric power will be standing by to continue power plant operations, all set up, running at idle and ready to take over the load. Or we'll do without electricity. And it won't just be vehicles, it will be dead cell phones and silly thumb games, dead LEDS and neon lights. No working elevators or heating/cooling and toilet flushing water in tall buildings (think about the smell of that for a big city minute). And hordes of dead cars.

So, NO, "saving" the world by reducing auto CO 2 isn't going to accomplish anything it isn't already doing; making lying rich folk like Algore richer.

NO anticipated batteries could provide the power for many homes and businesses for hours or - a very important survival point that's never mentioned - serious industrial operations for more than a few minutes.

Thus, we simply must keep the entire present power system in place and running as instant backup for any crisis that will surely come or people will die by the millions when all of the dreamy "renewable energy" battery powered systems die.

So, you want to "Save the World" AND reduce poverty? Okay, me too. First, lets forget electric cars for now. Then, if we mean it, let's demand that lib politicians not be allowed to destroy the existing electrical and nuclear and fossil fuel power systems that have made our current pleasant lives possible, and even expand what we have into impoverished 3rd world countries. If we don't, all the people of the world, including America (excepting the rich of course), will be as desperately poor as Haiti, Cuba and Sudan by the end of this century.

Global warming, such as it is, is caused by sun activity, not fossil fuels and/or CO 2. Try to get committed climate Chicken Littles to tell you what the global average world temperature should be; they'll twist and squirm a lot because they really don't have a clue. They're all quite sure we're all gonna die from sunstroke or heat rash or something else equally horrible if we don't get a Prius of our own this year but you will never get an honest answer, or even an honest guess, to that honest question!

[Daekar]

So... rather than try to respond to all of that, I'm just going to point out that fossil fuels are government subsidized and that they are an intensely centralized and extremely vulnerable supply chain. Have we forgotten how one simple ransomware attack rendered the entire eastern part of the US immobile when the single pipeline shut down? Even with current battery technology, many types of renewable energy and storage can be inherently decentralized, which (when done right) results in a more stable grid.

There is no perfect solution, and the Lord knows that solar, wind, and the other technologies that go with them need a lot of work, but I'll say this: I get quite a bit of sunshine and wind at my house, but I don't see a single drop of gasoline unless I bring it there. For someone who doesn't trust in the ability of the established power structure to cope with catastrophic events gracefully, that is a big plus in my book. A home battery and wind+solar are on our long-term investment roadmap for a reason, and it's not because of climate change.

[1hole]

I think we would have to see some sort of power induction system place in major roadways. Something similar to the old overhead power systems the trollies use, but this would be under ground and no direct contact would be needed. The technology is out there it would just be very expensive and then you have the problem of producing the electricity. Do we use evil coal?

Man, that's rational so don't ask that! Greenie-wiennies speak in bumper sticker quips, they never have to answer questions like that! (:))

Libs only work on one problem at a time and the problem of finding enough power to recharge tens of millions of hungry auto batteries overnight is much too large to fit on their plate right now, never mind thinking of how to add and maintain such systems into highway surfaces AND into the vehicles themselves.

[john.k]

Green is a religion for kids.....taught in schools via the "oldies are stealing our future spiel"....IMHO ,in 10 years the tipping point for IC will be reached ,and it will be increasingly difficult to use an IC vehicle .....sure they will still be legal ,but the schoolkid greens of today will be the politicians climbing the slippery pole in 10 years....The other trend here is "oldies are rich from land price rises .....they should not be able to keep all this money they have never earned."

[gbrown]

They can do all they want to do to ease Global Warming, until they rein in China and India, no hope. The only reason they got a by, is because they refused to sign the accords, until it was based on population. (Per capita) That's why the Accords are a bunch of junk.

[Lloyd Smale]

I bet ICE cars were the laughing stock of 99.9% of Americans during the first few years of the 20th century.

I doubt to many were laughing. Im sure some couldnt afford one so critisized but fact is we already knew we were sitting on billions of gallons of oil right under our feet. Right where the left seems to think the electric fairy lives.

[Lloyd Smale]

The bottom line question about electric cars is rarely discussed: how might they affect the CO2 level? The reason it isn't mentioned by the dominant liberal/fake news propaganda crowd is that electrics are not only unlikely to make much difference to world temps but the net difference will most likely be negative.

No one with his head on straight hopes for the day emergency electric vehicles start coming on line; God help anyone depending on a new fangled electric ambulance or fire truck or cop car with a dead battery!

However home recharging is done and how long it will require and how long the charge will last, the batteries MUST be charged or the magical vehicles are instantly useless. ALL dreamy promoter projections are based on the assumption that all things will remain as they are, i.e., a totally reliable electric power supply immediately at hand - and that is one very DUMM assumption!

The hopeful idea of using solar cells and windmills to charge storage cells to feed the high lines AND to supply our needed power when the weather doesn't live up to expectations is DUMM! No wind for a few days? Forget windmills. No sun for a few days? Forget solar.

A week of hurricane storm or wide area flooding will leave huge areas without meaningful surviving windmills OR cell farms. It often takes several weeks to restore damaged systems NOW and it will mean added weeks of no charged vehicle batteries in the affected areas. Add the time and costs of replacing thousands of acres of solar cells and destroyed wind farms and battery warehouses to the present time and costs to restore downed power lines and we'll see some huge increases in costs AND massive environmental damage just to get back to status quo.

That's a bad reality but even if no such destruction ever occurs (fat chance), solar cells and wind driven generators quickly degrade and demand huge routine maintinance costs.

Since it takes all our present electric systems can do to hold the line where we are it's obvious that if we depend on batteries to get us through a few long nights we must also have the present power system ready to take up the over the total load anytime the batteries collapse. We don't live in a vacuum, there is an unavoidable inneraction to everything; a Prius that could tow 6,000 pounds for 20 hours at 70 mph and gets 200 mpg is dead in its tracks if it can't be charged.

The ONLY way to assure our present levels of electric power will be standing by to continue power plant operations, all set up, running at idle and ready to take over the load. Or we'll do without electricity. And it won't just be vehicles, it will be dead cell phones and silly thumb games, dead LEDS and neon lights. No working elevators or heating/cooling and toilet flushing water in tall buildings (think about the smell of that for a big city minute). And hordes of dead cars.

So, NO, "saving" the world by reducing auto CO 2 isn't going to accomplish anything it isn't already doing; making lying rich folk like Algore richer.

NO anticipated batteries could provide the power for many homes and businesses for hours or - a very important survival point that's never mentioned - serious industrial operations for more than a few minutes.

Thus, we simply must keep the entire present power system in place and running as instant backup for any crisis that will surely come or people will die by the millions when all of the dreamy "renewable energy" battery powered systems die.

So, you want to "Save the World" AND reduce poverty? Okay, me too. First, lets forget electric cars for now. Then, if we mean it, let's demand that lib politicians not be allowed to destroy the existing electrical and nuclear and fossil fuel power systems that have made our current pleasant lives possible, and even expand what we have into impoverished 3rd world countries. If we don't, all the people of the world, including America (excepting the rich of course), will be as desperately poor as Haiti, Cuba and Sudan by the end of this century.

Global warming, such as it is, is caused by sun activity, not fossil fuels and/or CO 2. Try to get committed climate Chicken Littles to tell you what the global average world temperature should be; they'll twist and squirm a lot because they really don't have a clue. They're all quite sure we're all gonna die from sunstroke or heat rash or something else equally horrible if we don't get a Prius of our own this year but you will never get an honest answer, or even an honest guess, to that honest question!

good post. IT AINT HAPPENING. Our electrical grid cant keep up now. Even if they taxed the crap out of us it would take a decades to rebuild it to the point it can handle two cars in every yard and every commercial vehicle on the road. All this is is socialism. The government demanding you buy something even though they know its not economically feasible. Same politicians that have stock in green energy companies. Same politicians like our president that cave to the pressure from the far left hippys. There already forcing it.

The car manufactures are making them for three reasons. First is the government gives them no choice. Then because they are using OUR tax money to subsidies the research and development of this technology. Wouldnt henry ford just loved to get billions of tax dollars when he was switching from the model T to the model A. Wouldnt the wright brothers loved to have the government give them a million bucks to research air planes. If it was an economically sound route for car manufactures to go they would have been doing it way before the government forced them. Lastly the government subsidizes the hippys buying them with OUR tax money. Tell you what. Id sure love the government to pay 30 percent of the cost of my next ram or jeep. If any one of those things goes away this will drop like a rock and your electric car will rot in the garage because NOBODY will give you a dime for it and it will fail.

The government will shell out or tax dollars until they get LAWS PASSED FORCING YOU TO BUY ONE (socialism) and the incentives will stop cold. Or a logical thinking administration will be elected again and the big bucks ford gm and chrysler are getting to pay for research will stop immediately and a logical government will tell them. This country is a free enterprise county. YOU PAY to build your product and if its sells you win and if it doesnt you loose. That is the way its been since the constitution was signed. Like one hole said.

You guys here cheering this or even bending over and saying that even if it doesnt makes sense youd better get used to it are sure not the same people i want fighting for my gun rights. Its like biden saying take the guns out of the hands of the citizens and killings will stop. Making everyone drive electric cars is going to save the planet. There is ABSOLUTELY no proof it will ever reduce pollution. Yup if you drive one side by side next to my ram it pollutes less. WHY? Because its pollution isnt measured at the tail pipe. It has none. Its pollution is measured at that coal fired smoke belching power plant 40 miles away. Its measured in the thermal pollution a power plant creates buy pumping water through its condensers (ever see a power plant that wasnt on a lake or river?) Its created by the eye sore of beautiful land being used to build ugly power plants. VASTLY larger and higher numbers of transmission power lines going through the wilderness. The ugliness of larger power lines in your neighborhood and transformers twice the size. ALL of which will create MUCH more pollution manufacturing. These are the dirty little facts they hide from you. Personaly i find it sad that i come to a forum where mostly conservatives hang out and so many that will have there guns pried out of there cold dead fingers will turn around and bend over for this total line of bs that is fabricated by the FAR LEFT we detest so much. Just keep in mind that these same liberal hippys that fabricate this fallacy of saving the world from your polluting pickup and want to force you to drive an electric prius are the ones that want your guns and want to ban lead because of the pollution it causes. I just cant believe even one guy here is to stupid to not understand what the lefts real agenda is in this. Thats controlling YOUR LIFE.

Dont come cry to me when they make your f150 illegal to drive on the road and force you to either take a bike or buy some little electric go cart for 75k that takes electricity that cost 3 times what it does today to go to the store and buy a loaf of bread that cost 15 bucks. All the while your doing this those same polititians that forced it on you will be richer more powerful flying around on air planes partying and when they land they will be picked up by armed secret service (the new Gestapo) in a 30 foot armored stretch limo and drove to there mulit million dollar homes with more security then the prisons they emptied. This isnt about electric cars its about socialism. Sad some are to stupid to see it. Comical thing is when these things happen and the very well could the same guys here excepting it will be the loudest cry babbys and will be blaming every one but the real guilty person, THEMSELVES.

[Lloyd Smale]

one last thing for the "Its inevitable" bunch. Open your eyes and look at the loudest proponents for forcing this down our throats. The politicians your liberal neighbors, even your own garage and see how much other then lip service anyone has really done. They all want you to be forced but if they truly believed wouldnt they already be trying to save the planet. Would the new green deal be something that doesnt need any laws to force it on us. If it truely was intelligent to follow it wouldnt all of us already be doing it? Dont know about you but if someone could show me how i could run my home and vehicles not even cheaper but just as cheap with some new green techology that would REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE difference wouldnt most of us half way intellegent conservatives be leading the change.

[Sasquatch-1]

The mention of wind power was made. My wife related an article she read just recently that many of the early wind turbines are becoming obsolete or unrepairable economically. Evidently the blades, or some other parts, from these turbines are unrecyclable and are being buried on site or at land fills.

[Daekar]

The mention of wind power was made. My wife related an article she read just recently that many of the early wind turbines are becoming obsolete or unrepairable economically. Evidently the blades, or some other parts, from these turbines are unrecyclable and are being buried on site or at land fills.

Yeah, I can't say I'm surprised, especially about the early ones. I believe the newer ones are better, but you can guarantee that government subsidies have distorted the market considerably and costs will be out of whack. When making long-term investments the devil is in the details, and when folks are so busy screaming about climate change that they're not paying attention they don't pay attention to the details.

Hopefully progress is made in this area, wind power has enough challenges without bad lifecycle management being added to the list.

[Daekar]

one last thing for the "Its inevitable" bunch. Open your eyes and look at the loudest proponents for forcing this down our throats. The politicians your liberal neighbors, even your own garage and see how much other then lip service anyone has really done. They all want you to be forced but if they truly believed wouldnt they already be trying to save the planet. Would the new green deal be something that doesnt need any laws to force it on us. If it truely was intelligent to follow it wouldnt all of us already be doing it? Dont know about you but if someone could show me how i could run my home and vehicles not even cheaper but just as cheap with some new green techology that would REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE difference wouldnt most of us half way intellegent conservatives be leading the change.

So.... don't know about all the rest of it, but depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc. This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies. There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still. The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

[ourflat]

There is nothing green about electric cars. They cost oil and coal to make, the mining for the batteries is a blight on the planet and they are recharged with coal through a system that is already taxed to its breaking point.

They only sell because of fashion and government subsidies.

Well said!

[Lloyd Smale]

So.... don't know about all the rest of it, but depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc. This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies. There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still. The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

ive been told the break even comes at 15 to 20 years and thats up here where electrical rates are some of the highest in the country. Which ironical is about the time they need rebuilding. Add two more things to that. Technology improves. What you buy now will be obsolete in 10 years. Im 65 now and even 10 more is rolling the dice. Add to that i like my yard and the woods around me. I dont want an ugly solar array in my back yard or sitting up on my roof. Add to that maybe youd recoup more faster if you lived in AZ or ca but i live in northern michigan where we have WINTER!! In the winter its nothing for a week to go by with no sun. Heck even a month. NOPE right now TODAY at TODAYS technology level we have two choices. COAL AND NUKE. Bottom line too is raise your hand if you have 30k to lay out without taking out a second morgage. I own my home and am not borrowing on it so the bank owns it again. So ill pay my electric bill that the goverment will make more and more expensive with these pipe dreams. Ill heat that house with propane and wood. Ill drive a car and truck with a push rod v8 and a jeep with a push rod gas v6 because the v8 wranglers are just to expensive. Ill do this till the pry them from my cold dead fingers. If you want to do it another way then have at it but dont try to convince me your saving money or even more green then me. If evil Lloyd causes global warming which from what ive read wont even be noticeable for a 100 years so be it. My guess is my great great grandkids will be starving from overpopulation by them if there even is people. Some alien life forms will discover earth in 200 years and look at those solar pannels and wind generators and have a good laugh and say WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. No matter how it turns out it wont bother me. Ill be dead!

[1hole]

... depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc.

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.


This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies.

That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.


There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still.

Yeah. Still. ???


The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

[MaryB]

So.... don't know about all the rest of it, but depending on where you live, the return on investment for a solar+battery system can be less than a decade. That means you come out ahead monetarily from that point on, quite apart from the benefits of power during power outages, etc. This is a real thing that real people are actually doing and actually saving money with or achieving grid independence with, not just the raving greenies. There are gotchas that you have to think about, like buying from an established and stable vendor so your warranty is worth a damn in case something goes wrong, things like that, but still. The worse the electricity prices get as they phase out coal and gas, the faster your ROI will happen.

My solar panels(they are far cheaper than wind, more reliable and if you need more cloudy day power add more panels!) are going on 10 years old, they have paid for themselves even with a battery bank replacement at 7 years. It powers about 2/3 of my house needs and is NOT grid tied. I use that I produce on my own internal grid with the ability to drop back on grid if needed at each large electric power user, freezers, fridge, furnace/pellet stove, my ham radio gear is solar powered 24/7 except for amplifiers and they don't get used a lot except for the 2 meter amplifier that gets used every day. Plus my 24 volt lighting system! One of my neighbors asked after the last power outage, "how come you have bright lights during a power outage? We were making do with candles!". Umm you see the solar panels in the backyard? Now hey are paying me to design a small system that can be expanded, lighting, keep their freezer powered during an outage. Their generator refused to start, wonderful ethanol gas ate the fuel line... so now it needs a new carb and fuel lines and is a real piece of junk to begin with. He is tired of fixing it just to power a few lights and the freezer. They have emergency heat via wood stove so that is a power monster they don't have to feed in winter! And in winter solar panel output goes up! They like cold weather!

[MaryB]

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.



That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.



Yeah. Still. ???



Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

A 20x 10 foot area powers 2/3 of my house. I never clean my panels and no power output doesn't drop 50%, at best 5% plus rain washes them off now and then. I don't grid tie, I have my own mini grid to power critical loads, lights and my ham radio gear. I can drop back on grid any time. My system paid for itself in 7 years!

The large utility scale solar setups often have sheep grazing around and between them to keep grass and weeds short. Easy to livestock proof the wiring and the panels are high enough to walk under to not be blocked by MN winter snow. I had no tax subsidy to install my system, only way to get that is grid tie and pay idiotic fees to the power company. And my house battery takes up all of 6 x 3 feet of floor space. Just over 900 amp hours at 24 volts of lead acid batteries.I can go 3 days of total deep cloud cover/snow before needing to drop loads back on grid. Modern panels produce pretty well in low light conditions too. Give me 5 hours of sun and my battery bank is back to 80+% from being at 40% capacity(where my low voltage disconnect kicks in).

Solar works, panels on the roof are not that noticeable, grid tie is doable for a reasonable amount these days if you want to jump through the utility hoops and idiotic requirements like a million dollar liability policy "in case it damages their equipment"(never happen, power fails grid tie systems shut down, why I don't grid tie!).

Small wind works too but it more work, there is yearly maintenance, blades need replacing every 5-6 years due to leading edge erosion... lot of hobbyists and farmers have them now.

[megasupermagnum]

I've known people to run small things with solar panels, and they do work. The big ones like MaryB is talking, are also big money, almost as much as the property they are on. The only person I ever met who had one big enough to run their whole house are now in deep, deep trouble because they did some kind of special loan for it. I think it was called a PACE loan. Well, they got older, and can't afford their house anymore. Well they still owe a huge amount, and now can't sell the house. They can't make the payments, nobody is going to buy the place and take on all that debt. I never got an exact number out of them, but it sounded like the one they had, similar to the 10x20 MaryB describes, was around $50,000. Unless you are currently paying over $400 a month in electricity, I don't understand how these could ever pay for themselves.

On a large scale, solar and wind work much better, although it is far from a free lunch. South Dakota produces 83% of it's energy from wind, solar, and hydro (dams). It won't work as well in every state, but electric cars won't get you to the next major city and back in SD either.

[Daekar]

ive been told the break even comes at 15 to 20 years and thats up here where electrical rates are some of the highest in the country. Which ironical is about the time they need rebuilding. Add two more things to that. Technology improves. What you buy now will be obsolete in 10 years. Im 65 now and even 10 more is rolling the dice. Add to that i like my yard and the woods around me. I dont want an ugly solar array in my back yard or sitting up on my roof. Add to that maybe youd recoup more faster if you lived in AZ or ca but i live in northern michigan where we have WINTER!! In the winter its nothing for a week to go by with no sun. Heck even a month. NOPE right now TODAY at TODAYS technology level we have two choices. COAL AND NUKE. Bottom line too is raise your hand if you have 30k to lay out without taking out a second morgage. I own my home and am not borrowing on it so the bank owns it again. So ill pay my electric bill that the goverment will make more and more expensive with these pipe dreams. Ill heat that house with propane and wood. Ill drive a car and truck with a push rod v8 and a jeep with a push rod gas v6 because the v8 wranglers are just to expensive. Ill do this till the pry them from my cold dead fingers. If you want to do it another way then have at it but dont try to convince me your saving money or even more green then me. If evil Lloyd causes global warming which from what ive read wont even be noticeable for a 100 years so be it. My guess is my great great grandkids will be starving from overpopulation by them if there even is people. Some alien life forms will discover earth in 200 years and look at those solar pannels and wind generators and have a good laugh and say WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. No matter how it turns out it wont bother me. Ill be dead!

I think if I were 65, I would feel much more like you do. If you aren't going to live to see the ROI, then it's stupid to spend that money because you'll never come out ahead. Kind of like if I were building a new house it would be very very different from what we have, but I'm not, we have a house that will be paid off before I'm 45 and it doesn't already have a bunch of fancy-pants stuff built-in... and that's fine. Shoot, we even still have the old-style toilets that use lots of water with every flush, and shower heads without restrictors in them... but you know, the darn things work.

[Daekar]

I think you're well meaning but you're listening to cherry picked "expert" data intended to portray solar power in a rose colored world. Few people have enough land to cover with gray panels just for themselves; those few people who have cell fields will have to clean the surface film off their panels every few weeks or the output will be cut to 50% or less. Even those few who can power their routine needs will NOT produce enough extra power to supply any serious job producing industrial plants. Any battery storage buildings will have to be huge if they are to help power anything but their owner AND the batteries themselves will need some temperature moderation system. AND the batteries will require frequent technical attention (and replacement). AND assembling the batteries themselves is both expensive and injurious to the world's ecosystem. AND the cell fields must be constantly mowed around or tall weeds will soon provide them a shade cover. AND the cells also have a limited lifespan. Etc.



That is the happy side of the story isn't it. BUT, the happy experts never mention that actually "saving money" and "power independence" depends on a constant flow of government money; stop the various tax subsidies to individuals and power companies and the cash figures will immediately reverse.



Yeah. Still. ???



Maybe it will all work great together. IF you have enough unused land to base it on. And IF no storms destroy it. And IF you have a great place to store your battery system. And IF your Prius itself doesn't take a costly dump on you.

IF politicians wave their foolish hands in the air and rule out gas, coal and nuclear plants before a serious substitute power system is in place there will be no tomorrow. Sun and wind sure won't do the job, not for any life style we would recognise ... or desire. I've believed small nuke plants are the power grid future since the mid 1950s; still do.

The scenario you describe is completely inaccurate by factors of 10. Maybe you needed a "solar field" and a "battery storage building" in the 1970s, but 50 years on you can fit the batteries on the wall in your garage and the solar cells on your roof.

Obviously industry has different needs from residential buildings, but don't be so determined to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because a power-hungry industrial plant or machine shop operation wouldn't have enough roof area to run itself doesn't mean the technology has no value.

[Lloyd Smale]

A 20x 10 foot area powers 2/3 of my house. I never clean my panels and no power output doesn't drop 50%, at best 5% plus rain washes them off now and then. I don't grid tie, I have my own mini grid to power critical loads, lights and my ham radio gear. I can drop back on grid any time. My system paid for itself in 7 years!

The large utility scale solar setups often have sheep grazing around and between them to keep grass and weeds short. Easy to livestock proof the wiring and the panels are high enough to walk under to not be blocked by MN winter snow. I had no tax subsidy to install my system, only way to get that is grid tie and pay idiotic fees to the power company. And my house battery takes up all of 6 x 3 feet of floor space. Just over 900 amp hours at 24 volts of lead acid batteries.I can go 3 days of total deep cloud cover/snow before needing to drop loads back on grid. Modern panels produce pretty well in low light conditions too. Give me 5 hours of sun and my battery bank is back to 80+% from being at 40% capacity(where my low voltage disconnect kicks in).

Solar works, panels on the roof are not that noticeable, grid tie is doable for a reasonable amount these days if you want to jump through the utility hoops and idiotic requirements like a million dollar liability policy "in case it damages their equipment"(never happen, power fails grid tie systems shut down, why I don't grid tie!).

Small wind works too but it more work, there is yearly maintenance, blades need replacing every 5-6 years due to leading edge erosion... lot of hobbyists and farmers have them now.

there lies the difference sue. You live around what you have and know you have a limit. Most people today cannot get by with a 120 volt load of 1800 watts or an 20 amp system to supply there whole home. Today even 100 watt entrances are going the way of the dinosaurs. Most new homes have 200 and even 300 watt systems. I doubt i could run two of my 3 freezers on 1800 watts let alone the two fridges and a water pump too. Id need a system 5 times the size of yours to get by.

Now our camp runs on solar off the grid. But we have a gas stove gas and wood heat gas hot water gas fridge. About the only thing electric are lights and the tv and even the lights have back up gas. Even then when we want to get serious like running a couple 120 power tools while building we are starting up a generator. Now that solar system was relatively cheap but another thing you have to factor in to most systems is the cost of a generator. Because most honest people on solar unless there filthy rich and dont care about recouping the cost of a huge blank check system will need a generator too.

Even at 2/3s of your load being taken care of by solar you still have to pay the expense of putting in either a generator that run a 1/3 of the load or pay to have a service drop transformer a meter panel service wire to your home and if you still use the utility you have to pay monthly service and meter charges just like the neighbor who doesnt have solar and today those add up to near half your bill. Yup if you can produce enough to sell back into the grid the power company has to pay you for it but they dont pay you back at the same rate they charge you. You pay retail they pay what they pay to buy it off the grid to sell it to you at a profit. Plus in some states if your selling back power to the utility you are suppose to pay taxes on that income. Something many dont realize. My take on it is this. If you can hook to the grid hook to the grid. If you want to play around with a small system have fun. If you live off the grid put in the best system you can afford and dont worry about recouping the cost of it because your off the grid and have nothing to compare it to. If it were truly a money saving no brainer there would be solar panels on 75 percent of the homes in this country. Nowbody likes paying for electricity. I worked in the industry for 30 years and will tell you flat out that the most hated bill other then child support and alimony that people have is there power bill. I dont know why because of all the bills you pay electricity is probably the most important commodity to your day to day life other then food and water. Just think look around your home and see how much of it is reliant on electricity.

[white eagle]

the United States needs to be careful who they get in bed with to produce this technology
China has most of the minerals and products to make these batteries and solar this and that
like most of our antibiotics and other medicines
so giving them more access to our power grid and into our very way of life is a calculated risk at best
if the current sell outs were not in office this may be a more feasible proposition however their interests are not
for the common good of the American people and China has their own interests in mind not helping out our nation.
Bidden has already crippled our nation by cutting our pipelines and making us more dependent on a country that hate's our nation

[MaryB]

I've known people to run small things with solar panels, and they do work. The big ones like MaryB is talking, are also big money, almost as much as the property they are on. The only person I ever met who had one big enough to run their whole house are now in deep, deep trouble because they did some kind of special loan for it. I think it was called a PACE loan. Well, they got older, and can't afford their house anymore. Well they still owe a huge amount, and now can't sell the house. They can't make the payments, nobody is going to buy the place and take on all that debt. I never got an exact number out of them, but it sounded like the one they had, similar to the 10x20 MaryB describes, was around $50,000. Unless you are currently paying over $400 a month in electricity, I don't understand how these could ever pay for themselves.

On a large scale, solar and wind work much better, although it is far from a free lunch. South Dakota produces 83% of it's energy from wind, solar, and hydro (dams). It won't work as well in every state, but electric cars won't get you to the next major city and back in SD either.

If they paid $50k they got ripped off! I have 16 panels at $150 each, copper wire to the house was $200, charge controller was $450, batteries $1k, inverters(I run multiple so I can control zones) $400 x 3, racking for the panels was maybe $200... less than $6,000 invested. My electric bill averaged $150/mo or $1800/yr... system paid for itself in 4 years, well 7 because I have gone thru a set of batteries.

I didn't install it to be green, I was tired of trying to start a generator when it was -20... easier to let my heat drop to battery, still have lights... heck I can even run my computer if I want!

[MaryB]

there lies the difference sue. You live around what you have and know you have a limit. Most people today cannot get by with a 120 volt load of 1800 watts or an 20 amp system to supply there whole home. Today even 100 watt entrances are going the way of the dinosaurs. Most new homes have 200 and even 300 watt systems. I doubt i could run two of my 3 freezers on 1800 watts let alone the two fridges and a water pump too. Id need a system 5 times the size of yours to get by.

Now our camp runs on solar off the grid. But we have a gas stove gas and wood heat gas hot water gas fridge. About the only thing electric are lights and the tv and even the lights have back up gas. Even then when we want to get serious like running a couple 120 power tools while building we are starting up a generator. Now that solar system was relatively cheap but another thing you have to factor in to most systems is the cost of a generator. Because most honest people on solar unless there filthy rich and dont care about recouping the cost of a huge blank check system will need a generator too.

Even at 2/3s of your load being taken care of by solar you still have to pay the expense of putting in either a generator that run a 1/3 of the load or pay to have a service drop transformer a meter panel service wire to your home and if you still use the utility you have to pay monthly service and meter charges just like the neighbor who doesnt have solar and today those add up to near half your bill. Yup if you can produce enough to sell back into the grid the power company has to pay you for it but they dont pay you back at the same rate they charge you. You pay retail they pay what they pay to buy it off the grid to sell it to you at a profit. Plus in some states if your selling back power to the utility you are suppose to pay taxes on that income. Something many dont realize. My take on it is this. If you can hook to the grid hook to the grid. If you want to play around with a small system have fun. If you live off the grid put in the best system you can afford and dont worry about recouping the cost of it because your off the grid and have nothing to compare it to. If it were truly a money saving no brainer there would be solar panels on 75 percent of the homes in this country. Nowbody likes paying for electricity. I worked in the industry for 30 years and will tell you flat out that the most hated bill other then child support and alimony that people have is there power bill. I dont know why because of all the bills you pay electricity is probably the most important commodity to your day to day life other then food and water. Just think look around your home and see how much of it is reliant on electricity.

The really big intermittent loads I leave on grid, like the water heater(planning on solar hot water next year though), shop equipment like compressor and welder/plasma cutter are better off ran off the grid(or if off grid a generator).

Grid tie regs vary by state, MN pays retail to buy electricity from small producers(homeowners) but they tack on fees and require an idiotic insurance policy of $1 million liability. So if I was going to grid tie I would have enough solar to pay those fees. Entire roof would be covered on the house and garage. But I hate dealing with the paperwork and hassle so I use what I produce and let the grid fill in. I might add 8 more panels and 4 more batteries to give me a wash as far as power needs go. And a big 240 volt inverter that can run the compressor/water heater/welder etc...

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry mary. I called you sue. Sue used to be on a different forum.

[Handloader109]

The really big intermittent loads I leave on grid, like the water heater(planning on solar hot water next year though), shop equipment like compressor and welder/plasma cutter are better off ran off the grid(or if off grid a generator).

Grid tie regs vary by state, MN pays retail to buy electricity from small producers(homeowners) but they tack on fees and require an idiotic insurance policy of $1 million liability. So if I was going to grid tie I would have enough solar to pay those fees. Entire roof would be covered on the house and garage. But I hate dealing with the paperwork and hassle so I use what I produce and let the grid fill in. I might add 8 more panels and 4 more batteries to give me a wash as far as power needs go. And a big 240 volt inverter that can run the compressor/water heater/welder etc...So, not to denigrate you, but all you have done is to REDUCE your electric demand. You are NOT solar only, and while what you've done may work for you, it won't work for 99% of the population.
24v lighting and limited power just isnt on anyone's thoughts.

I see the scams advertised now on the local scale where just be getting the power company to pay you for your solar panels power generation. Scam. You borrow $20 to 50k and then get the power company who is forced to buy your unneeded power at full retail. Yes your bill is close to zero, but you pay the same if not way more to the solar panel company. and yes almost all panels have a 20 year life. so you might break even if you are lucky...



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

I know nothing about connecting solar panels to houses, but I really doubt anyone is re wiring their house for DC. All solar panels I've dealt with have been 12 volts as well, although that was small scale stuff, maybe they make panels for different voltages. Either way, inverters exist. There's no reason why you wouldn't run your DC voltage to an inverter, and get your normal 120 VAC to your house. Even my fish house has that.

Yes, beware the scams. It sounds like wind and solar both have rampant scammers ready to sell you something.

[pmer]

EVs will probably take off when they can standardize batteries and charging stations. Like cordless tools get a EV with two packs that can swap on the road. Have stations that you can drive in and swap in a charged pack and drive out. And have car only options with out a battery like a cordless tool only purchase assuming one might have extra power packs or pack leasing.

[jim147]

I know nothing about connecting solar panels to houses, but I really doubt anyone is re wiring their house for DC. All solar panels I've dealt with have been 12 volts as well, although that was small scale stuff, maybe they make panels for different voltages. Either way, inverters exist. There's no reason why you wouldn't run your DC voltage to an inverter, and get your normal 120 VAC to your house. Even my fish house has that.

Yes, beware the scams. It sounds like wind and solar both have rampant scammers ready to sell you something.

I've had several customer that have 12 volt lighting. It is not that uncommon. And I'm outside a town of 300.

Once it cools down I will do two buildings that way. Even if on grid it drops your bill.

I have many customers in this area with solar grids and generators. Our electricity is much better then it used to be but it is also more expensive. If my wife didn't want to sell this place in the next few years, I would go off grid.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Some folks wire in LED lighting using DC power, specifically because no city permits are needed, in many areas, for low voltage circuits - And, no electrician expenses. Friend is doing a "tiny house" that way for himself.

[Lloyd Smale]

bottom line is if it really worked and saved money and made sense there would be solar panels in every neighborhood in the country. What they are good for are people like mary who are willing to make sacrifices and even then most still need a grid hookup. Only people that can afford to be energy independent have money and are more concerned about being energy independent then actually saving money. I pay @2k a year to have power and the luxury of having whatever electrical convivence i want. Not just necessities but luxuries. It would take a serious solar system just to fire up my 1000 watt rcbs melting pot for 2 hours to cast some bullets.

I am 95 percent of America. Im 65 and love the fact that if im cold i can just turn up the thermostat and if i want my Mr coffee to be on all night. My two fridges and 3 freezers running all the time. Lights? hit a switch. Hot water. Open a faucet. I worked hard all my life to be to the point i dont have to worry about going out in a storm and starting my generator because the sun hasnt shinned in 10 days. Dont have to go out and cut a cord of firewood because my supply ran out because this winter was a bit tougher.

Nothing wrong with those who do. Some even enjoy it. Me? Id rather cast some bullets or go shooting. Now if i could spend 10k and use all the electricity i use today with no worry about conserving and that 10k would get me by for the next 10 years id be crunching numbers. Now im not talking 10k in material because lets be realistic. There might be a half a dozen here out of hundreds that have the knowlege and ability mary has to build and maintain a system that big. So the reality is that system that might cost mary 10k would cost most here twice that. So if i look at 20k for 10 years im loosing money. 20k for 15 years and im breaking even. That is if i can get enough kwh's out of a 20k system, dont have any issues with it that i have to call the repair man for and at 65 im rolling the dice that ill even be here for 15 more years.

Then lets throw one more monkey wrench into the system. What happens to people like Mary that have had to sacrifice already to get by when if the liberals stay in power we are forced to drive electric cars and trucks A system that powers a water pump and some dc load sure isnt going to charge a full sized pickup you need to haul firewood. Heck most homes hook up to the grid wont allow that without some major upgrades.

[rbuck351]

I have an all electric house and it costs about 2k a year to run everything including my shop ( air compressor, lathe, mill, power tools etc). The heating/cooling system is a geothermal heat pump (electric) and all else is electric (stove , 2 fridges, 3 freezers, water heater etc). I don't know what the solar panels, battery bank, converters, wiring etc would cost even if I installed it myself. Being 72 now, I don't think could possibly recover the cost in my life time. I'm not shy about turning on the heat or AC whenever I want.
I also have no use for an electric car. My old Chevy Cavalier gets about 30 mpg and is paid for so I don't see myself saving any money by buying an EV at what ever they cost. My old Dodge Cummins 3500 only gets 16/17 mpg but it will pull my trailer loaded at 10,000 lbs at highway speeds farther than any empty electric PU will go before charging. And then I can fill up in 5 min almost anywhere.
We are not at the point of replacing fossil fuels with electricity and won't be until battery tech and generating capacity gets a lot better. 20 30 years maybe but I'll be gone then and someone else can resist the stupidity.
Anyone that thinks an EV is no maintenance is missing the fact that an EV still has everything a gas car does except engine and transmission and those are replaced by a battery, electric motor and a bunch of switches and wiring most of which will wear out sooner or later.

[troyboy]

Mr Smale hit the nail on the head very early in this conversation. It's all about the few controlling the many. Evidently many contributing to this thread don't understand the meaning of his words or choose to ignore them. Nothing wrong with alternative energy but it is not about that......

[megasupermagnum]

I've had several customer that have 12 volt lighting. It is not that uncommon. And I'm outside a town of 300.

Once it cools down I will do two buildings that way. Even if on grid it drops your bill.

I have many customers in this area with solar grids and generators. Our electricity is much better then it used to be but it is also more expensive. If my wife didn't want to sell this place in the next few years, I would go off grid.

Why exactly would you do this? Are you rewiring the house with separate outlets and switches? Are you only installing switches and lights?

[MaryB]

So, not to denigrate you, but all you have done is to REDUCE your electric demand. You are NOT solar only, and while what you've done may work for you, it won't work for 99% of the population.
24v lighting and limited power just isnt on anyone's thoughts.

I see the scams advertised now on the local scale where just be getting the power company to pay you for your solar panels power generation. Scam. You borrow $20 to 50k and then get the power company who is forced to buy your unneeded power at full retail. Yes your bill is close to zero, but you pay the same if not way more to the solar panel company. and yes almost all panels have a 20 year life. so you might break even if you are lucky...



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

If you read my post I put this in as backup power, and I may as well reduce my electric bill while I am at it! Primary use is backup, outages happen here many times a year because the power system dates from 1950!

[MaryB]

I know nothing about connecting solar panels to houses, but I really doubt anyone is re wiring their house for DC. All solar panels I've dealt with have been 12 volts as well, although that was small scale stuff, maybe they make panels for different voltages. Either way, inverters exist. There's no reason why you wouldn't run your DC voltage to an inverter, and get your normal 120 VAC to your house. Even my fish house has that.

Yes, beware the scams. It sounds like wind and solar both have rampant scammers ready to sell you something.

Having $2500+++ of charge controller, batteries, inverters at the panels is not practical... MPPT charge controllers can accept up to 150 volts for the one I use, some go as high as 600! They down convert to match your battery bank voltage and can gain 20% more charge than a PWM charge controller. I am running 4 panels in series for 90 volts DC I run to the house. This keeps copper losses/expense down by being able to run smaller copper wire. But larger than I normally would for only 3% voltage drop.

My system is unusual because it is primarily backup power I use to reduce my electric bill buy having zones with their own smaller inverter. Yes I ran 24 volt DC around the house for lighting, wire needed was cheap with under a 1 amp load per light.

[MaryB]

bottom line is if it really worked and saved money and made sense there would be solar panels in every neighborhood in the country. What they are good for are people like mary who are willing to make sacrifices and even then most still need a grid hookup. Only people that can afford to be energy independent have money and are more concerned about being energy independent then actually saving money. I pay @2k a year to have power and the luxury of having whatever electrical convivence i want. Not just necessities but luxuries. It would take a serious solar system just to fire up my 1000 watt rcbs melting pot for 2 hours to cast some bullets.

I am 95 percent of America. Im 65 and love the fact that if im cold i can just turn up the thermostat and if i want my Mr coffee to be on all night. My two fridges and 3 freezers running all the time. Lights? hit a switch. Hot water. Open a faucet. I worked hard all my life to be to the point i dont have to worry about going out in a storm and starting my generator because the sun hasnt shinned in 10 days. Dont have to go out and cut a cord of firewood because my supply ran out because this winter was a bit tougher.

Nothing wrong with those who do. Some even enjoy it. Me? Id rather cast some bullets or go shooting. Now if i could spend 10k and use all the electricity i use today with no worry about conserving and that 10k would get me by for the next 10 years id be crunching numbers. Now im not talking 10k in material because lets be realistic. There might be a half a dozen here out of hundreds that have the knowlege and ability mary has to build and maintain a system that big. So the reality is that system that might cost mary 10k would cost most here twice that. So if i look at 20k for 10 years im loosing money. 20k for 15 years and im breaking even. That is if i can get enough kwh's out of a 20k system, dont have any issues with it that i have to call the repair man for and at 65 im rolling the dice that ill even be here for 15 more years.

Then lets throw one more monkey wrench into the system. What happens to people like Mary that have had to sacrifice already to get by when if the liberals stay in power we are forced to drive electric cars and trucks A system that powers a water pump and some dc load sure isnt going to charge a full sized pickup you need to haul firewood. Heck most homes hook up to the grid wont allow that without some major upgrades.

Grid tie is plug and play... heck go micro inverter at each panel and a 240 volt line to the panels form your main breaker box and done. The inverter plugs into the panel via a fool proof connector, 240 volts goes to each micro inverter(they are wired in parallel). Each inverter is 295 watts and needs a 300+ watt panel(most use a 360 watt, it is extra on time before sunset with the extra overhead) https://www.altestore.com/store/inverters/micro-inverters/enphase-energy-micro-inverters-p40450/. $149 each so a 3kw system is $1500 for inverters, add 10 of these mid range solar panels(good brand, budget minded) at a cost of $1900. Add in $1000 for racking and wire... $500 for the gateway monitoring system.. call it $5k for a 3kw+ system that will produce 15kw a day or 450+kwh a month... that is 3/4 of my electric bill most months... 4 year payback... at MN rates, each state is different for grid tie so research before jumping!

[MaryB]

Why exactly would you do this? Are you rewiring the house with separate outlets and switches? Are you only installing switches and lights?

I went with separate switches and lights. Switches have to be DC rated in case of a short. LED lights draw 1-2 amps MAX at 24 volts and that is a very bright light. I bought 250 feet of 14 gauge power cord with ground. With such low current draw it is plenty and the jacket is tough for puling in walls and ceilings. Plus it won't be mistaken for 120 volt AC wiring! Everything is labeled 24 volts so anyone coming after me knows what it is. I lose power I have lights without candles, flashlights etc. And no generator to start up when it is -20f with windchill hitting -50f... My pellet stove is 12 volts as is all my amateur radio equipment so I use a 24 to 12 volt convertor for them. I can run 3 days off battery, heat 2 freezers, fridge, furnace when it kicks in to make up heat(about 4 times a day).

[Lloyd Smale]

Grid tie is plug and play... heck go micro inverter at each panel and a 240 volt line to the panels form your main breaker box and done. The inverter plugs into the panel via a fool proof connector, 240 volts goes to each micro inverter(they are wired in parallel). Each inverter is 295 watts and needs a 300+ watt panel(most use a 360 watt, it is extra on time before sunset with the extra overhead) https://www.altestore.com/store/inverters/micro-inverters/enphase-energy-micro-inverters-p40450/. $149 each so a 3kw system is $1500 for inverters, add 10 of these mid range solar panels(good brand, budget minded) at a cost of $1900. Add in $1000 for racking and wire... $500 for the gateway monitoring system.. call it $5k for a 3kw+ system that will produce 15kw a day or 450+kwh a month... that is 3/4 of my electric bill most months... 4 year payback... at MN rates, each state is different for grid tie so research before jumping!

what shuts your power going out off when theres an outage? Is there an automatic switch you have to buy too. You sure dont want to be pumping power into a downed line someone is working on. Is there actually electrical code for dc wiring and protection in your home. Dc power is much more dangerous then AC.

[Mal Paso]

what shuts your power going out off when theres an outage? Is there an automatic switch you have to buy too. You sure dont want to be pumping power into a downed line someone is working on. Is there actually electrical code for dc wiring and protection in your home. Dc power is much more dangerous then AC.

The grid tie inverters won't run if the utility is down, there has to be utility voltage present. Beyond that the utilities ground both ends of lines being worked on. Not like the old days when they worked a lot of jobs hot.

Grid tie inverters Have to time their output to the utility AC Cycle to begin with, fail safe is fairly easy.

[megasupermagnum]

Having $2500+++ of charge controller, batteries, inverters at the panels is not practical... MPPT charge controllers can accept up to 150 volts for the one I use, some go as high as 600! They down convert to match your battery bank voltage and can gain 20% more charge than a PWM charge controller. I am running 4 panels in series for 90 volts DC I run to the house. This keeps copper losses/expense down by being able to run smaller copper wire. But larger than I normally would for only 3% voltage drop.

My system is unusual because it is primarily backup power I use to reduce my electric bill buy having zones with their own smaller inverter. Yes I ran 24 volt DC around the house for lighting, wire needed was cheap with under a 1 amp load per light.

I guess I still don't understand. Did you do all the work yourself, sheetrock and all? Surely there is more than $2500 just in the sheetrock, paint, and labor required to pull wire just for lights.

[MaryB]

I guess I still don't understand. Did you do all the work yourself, sheetrock and all? Surely there is more than $2500 just in the sheetrock, paint, and labor required to pull wire just for lights.

Yes I did the labor. You have plus and minus from the solar stuff, didn't do any drywall damage(I made sure to leave access conduits for low voltage add ons like speakers etc when I remodeled). It isn't hard to use a fish tape to get thru a ceiling joist space either, done plenty of that helping my dad wire houses and at the casino pulling slot machine wires.

[Gator 45/70]

Come on, I can melt lead in my attic this time of the year,The solar will have to wait until November.
MaryB. Sounds like a extremally doable set up, If one is good with their hands then why not?

[Lloyd Smale]

yup Mary, your in a pretty unique group that knows this stuff and is sharp enough to work through the problems and get it done without hiring a tech. Im sure that about cuts the cost of your system in half. Makes recouping the costs much more doable. I was a lineman for 30 years. I do know electricity but im FAR from an expert in electronics. matter of fact i still have my old flip phone. Dont much know a resistor from a computer chip and its a bit to late to teach this old dog new tricks. I have to applaud you. This may sound like a slap to women but your one in a million. I dont even personaly know a women that has even heard of ohms law let alone could set up a working solar system.

[MaryB]

If you can swap a battery in a car you can setup a solar power system(simple one, not as complex as mine, I do some voltage dependent switching and have transfer switches to drop loads back on grid if needed). As I said, you have a positive and negative coming from the soar panels, goes to the +- on the charge controller after connecting your solar battery +- to it. Inverter +- connects to battery. You now have a functional power backup system.

[rockrat]

I am sure its as easy as P=IE. ( Had to get that in before someone else beat me to it!!:))

[Handloader109]

If you can swap a battery in a car you can setup a solar power system(simple one, not as complex as mine, I do some voltage dependent switching and have transfer switches to drop loads back on grid if needed). As I said, you have a positive and negative coming from the soar panels, goes to the +- on the charge controller after connecting your solar battery +- to it. Inverter +- connects to battery. You now have a functional power backup system.Young lady, there is maybe 5% of the population under 40 that can correctly identify a screwdriver, hammer and pliers. Forget about changing a battery, only 2% can identify and find the battery.
Solar systems that are being sold today come installed and are entirely sold based on selling the power generated back to the grid.
But you've intrigued me. I do need to research what you are doing more. I'm out in the woods 7 miles from town and would be a while getting power back on if major outage like ice storm. Need a better backup than just a generator.

Ha, an aside, generac now has a solar battery backup system. about $20 to 30k installed for medium to large system. 10 yr warranty on It. ..

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Fishman]

I have several sayings I remember to try and remind myself to remain humble. One is "Everyone has something they can teach me". Some people obviously are experts on certain things and easier to spot. It's the not-so-obvious ones that always surprise me.

[.429&H110]

I have been following this and just re-read it to see if anybody answered:

Do electric cars have air conditioning?

Will batteries run the A/C for two hours stuck on the Jersey Pike at 90F?
(I once spent the afternoon waiting for the carnage to clear.)

Do electric cars have heaters?

My 20yo Tacoma has 160hp, downhill at redline... towed the boat just fine... but at -40F in Fairbanks, I put cardboard on the radiator to defrost the windshield. I don't see how a battery car can live there.
In my grandfather's day the Stanley Steamers had no windshield wipers. Who would ever want to drive in the rain? The Stanley Steamers are museum pieces now, but we'll need them after the EMP attack.

[Wisest.fool]

First i would like to preface this on saying i am not an expert, but the topic fascinates me.

History:
I used to be an avid R/C pilot before i joined the army and you couldn't budge me off the nitromethanol/caster oil engines to go electric. fast forward 15 years. wanted to get my son one to fly together. cannot find nitro engines because brushless electric is both more powerful and efficient. Difference? batteries and better brushless motors. Tried one and I am impressed. i can fly just as long if not more and a quick battery swap and im back to flying while the other one charges.

I drive a truck and don't plan on doing electric until one thing changes:

bringing this thread back towards the original posters topic, EVs have along way to go before they become viable for long distance. And someone already somewhat covered this. The power density of lithium based batteries far exceeds older rechargeable tech such as lead acid, nickle cadmium(NiCD) and nickle metal hydride NiMH. It has brought us to the 300ish mile range under ideal conditions. The batteries still degrade over time though. This is due to the formations of dendrites. They have to be charged/discharged slowly(well some are quite fast but they cannot exceed a certain rate) to prevent the formations of these which could cause the battery to explode (and I can vouch that they explode quite violently we use them in military radios and we have to dispose of them carefully and not in the burn pit. Did that. Thought we were in contact for about 5 minutes!!! fun times.). And before someone goes on about that I would like to remind everyone that gasoline in fact explodes under the right circumstances such as inside internal combustion engines. You are dealing with two very high energy dense substances! I could go into more depth on this but the jist is the current battery technology is not efficient enough to allow for long distance trips.

Solution: more efficient(Power dense and quicker recharging) batteries. There are several companies that are working on just this problem. They are moving towards electrical storage that more closely resembles a capacitor than a battery. For those of you who don't know what a capacitor is it stores energy as electrostatic energy. like getting shocked with static. it builds up and then zap. batteries store electricity in a chemical reaction. There are several batteries being developed that behave much like a capacitor able to charge and discharge extremely rapidly. And several more that are trying to eliminate heavy metals and they are the most costly part of modern batteries. Either direction would work. Batteries than can charge in minutes instead of hours would bring EV to the point it could be viable for long distance. or batteries that are cheaper would make them more efficient on the pocketbook and potentially allow for easily swapping them.

I really find the idea fascinating. Is it really viable right now for my lifestyle? Possibly, I am boring and drive to work and home most days. I do drive 120 miles to catch redfish in the gulf and twice a year I drive home to see the folks. my hunting area is within the range of most EV. and the range is literally a mile from where i work on base. I can and have rode my bicycle to work(4-8 miles) many days when i don't have to take all my military gear with me. Its good PT.

Make it so i can charge my vehicle in 5 minutes with stations close enough that its not a pain in my a$$. I will buy in at that point. If i could charge it off solar at my house that would just be a bonus. and running my house off my car in a hurricane sounds great(thank you Laura and Delta which both passed over my house for my brand new 7KW generator).

Until then i agree forcing electric on people is wrong

[Smoke4320]

When my wife was working, one of her co-worker purchased a Chevy volt at the beginning of the summer. She would come to work and brag about not having to buy gas and how great the car was. Flash forward to the beginning of winter. The car was on charge all night in her garage on a very cold night. She went out hopped in her car got about three miles from the house and had to call a tow truck because the cold weather killed the battery instantly. Now this wasn't in Michigan, North Dakota or Montana, this was in Gaithersburg Maryland just outside Washington, D. C.

If I wanted to go from here in Martinsburg, WV to where my son lives about halfway between Pittsburg and Erie, I would probably have to make it a two day trip just so I could stop somewhere and charge the battery...if I could find a hotel that has a charging station.

If you could find a hotel with a charging station that was unused at the time YOU needed it.

[trebor44]

Has this been addressed: driving down a waterway (flooded street etc.) with an electric vehicle during monsoon season for a half mile or more?

[bangerjim]

Solar is great......if you have 360+ days of sun like we do here in PHX! I run my ENTIRE 3200 sqft 2 story house (totally electric) off of an 8K solar panel array. That is 2 big heat pumps, VFD for the pool, high efficiency dishwasher, high efficiency dryer and clothes washer, all the LED electric lights, computers, TV's, etc. Any extra 220V ac power is sold back into the grid automatically. At night I buy power from the grid. Very efficient. My bill went form almost $300/mo to around $73/mo (yearly average plan).

Solar in cars/trucks is totally another idea that I think is stupid. Would mabe work here in AZ, but most places there is not enough sun to keep the massive batteries required charged.

And FORD totally battery trucks? OMG. Fix Or Repair Daily cars are total carp. FORD trucks are great............with gasoline engines!!!!!!! And the power that comes with them. Why spoil a good thing, just for some lame woke stooges.

[uscra112]

Well, this will be the decider for some people:

Ford Has Created A Fragrance Designed To Smell Like Gasoline

"A claimed 70 percent of electric car buyers said they would miss the smell of gas when switching to a plug-in vehicle. This is according to Ford, which to promote its upcoming Mach-E GT has created a fragrance intended to smell like petroleum."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2021/07/28/ford-has-created-a-fragrance-designed-to-smell-like-gasoline/?sh=2206bb5b5f89&fbclid=IwAR34FVxia9MN57HkB2sRlW6SgOuVGT8G9BYKO6ylj 9MIULbYdP_nqmA_ohg&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link

[Handloader109]

Well, this will be the decider for some people:

Ford Has Created A Fragrance Designed To Smell Like Gasoline

"A claimed 70 percent of electric car buyers said they would miss the smell of gas when switching to a plug-in vehicle. This is according to Ford, which to promote its upcoming Mach-E GT has created a fragrance intended to smell like petroleum."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alistaircharlton/2021/07/28/ford-has-created-a-fragrance-designed-to-smell-like-gasoline/?sh=2206bb5b5f89&fbclid=IwAR34FVxia9MN57HkB2sRlW6SgOuVGT8G9BYKO6ylj 9MIULbYdP_nqmA_ohg&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=linkFunny, I had my oil changed for the first time ever at a quickie oil change shop. never got out of the car, and had fun talking with the manager who was taking care of all the info for everyone driving through. Said his wife loved the smell of diesel...... Go figure. Was thinking about using for cologne

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[rockrat]

Charge an electric vehicle in minutes??? What is the amp-hour ratings for the battery packs?? If 2000 amp-hours, wouldn't you need electric lines capable of handling 20,000 amps to charge in 6 minutes (1/10th of an hour). What kind of heat would be generated, not to mention the electromagnetic field generated? Fry the electronics in your car? Would you have to have your house re-wired to handle the load? Wouldn't you have to use a LOT of fossil fuel to mine the ore and refine it to just make the wire for all this?
How about a hybrid truck that the engine uses diesel?? That might get my attention. Electric only vehicles don't have the range so I can make it to see the Grandchild so why bother. You get to a 600 mile range, then maybe.
Just thinking out loud

[jim147]

If you want to make a fuel fragrance it should be high octane VP flavored.

[popper]

A 13-ton lithium battery burst into flames then spread to another battery in Australia, Musk project. Expected to burn for 24 hrs min. San Diego has built one, Texas is planning some.

[farmbif]

I've wondered about a battery powered pulling tractor. Weight shouldn't be an issue for 7K.-10k LB classes. I guess there's a couple lawn mower sized EVs pulling out there. I pull an Oliver tractor in some antique farm classes but would have to go in an open class with a EV I'm sure. It would only have to run at full power for 2-3 minutes at the most.

I could see guys "chipping" that Ford truck EV and making their tires go bald lol. Or maybe pulling with them at truck pulls. Though not very practical for every day use that way.

not electric, but JCB is going all in with hydrogen engines for heavy equipment, tractors and rock trucks

[Mal Paso]

I used to be an avid R/C pilot before i joined the army and you couldn't budge me off the nitromethanol/caster oil engines to go electric. fast forward 15 years. wanted to get my son one to fly together. cannot find nitro engines because brushless electric is both more powerful and efficient. Difference? batteries and better brushless motors. Tried one and I am impressed. i can fly just as long if not more and a quick battery swap and im back to flying while the other one charges.

Where's the joy of getting a fussy 2 cycle started after hours of trying. Or getting one started without needing Band-Aids. Does "Kiting" a plane still mean the same thing?

[uscra112]

not electric, but JCB is going all in with hydrogen engines for heavy equipment, tractors and rock trucks

Not to put too fine a point on it. but we are already using hydrogen fueled engines. Have been for 120 years. We just add a little carbon to make the hydrogen easier to manage.

Fun fact: The principle constituent of exhaust gas is......water. H2O.

[farmbif]

this is what I read about JCB

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-technology/jcb-unveils-hydrogen-fuelled-combustion-engine-technology

https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2020/07/jcb-leads-the-way-with-first-hydrogen-fuelled-excavator

[Finster101]

A 13-ton lithium battery burst into flames then spread to another battery in Australia, Musk project. Expected to burn for 24 hrs min. San Diego has built one, Texas is planning some.


As a person who has replaced or serviced more than one Chevy Volt Battery and a few Escalade Hybrid batteries, weight would certainly be an issue in just swapping out batteries. It's not like just putting a couple of D-cells in. You have to make it safe to handle and even after that wear lineman's gloves. We are dealing with 300+ volts. You need a very stout table lift capable of raising and lowering several hundred pounds. Coolant lines are run and have to be purged on the Volt. If you a replacing a segment or individual cells they have to be balanced. Reading about them and theorizing is way different than actually working on them

[Mr_Sheesh]

Gent I know somewhat on another forum runs a towing co.

When electric vehicles first came out, there were a lot of fires when the tow rig operator started to move the EV, at least at that time I believe he chose not to move EVs. Could have changed by now, idk.

They are definitely different!