350 gn 45-70 cast bullet question

[odette]

I have a new mould that casts 350 gn flatnose gas check .460 bullets. I tried seating at 2.55 OAL but they will not chamber in my Marlin 1895LTD. The lever will not close all the way. I was using new Starline brass, WLR primers, A2015 powder. Bullets were Hi-Tek coated 3 times,GC'dand sized to .460. In order to not seating on the start of the ogive or past that point, I switched to Hornady's brass that quite a bit shorter, mine measured 2.03". I seated to the crimp on a dummy round and it still would not chamber all the way. I gradually increased the seating depth until it was just past the crimp groove, 2.46" OAL is where it finally chambered all the way and lever closed so it would fire as normal.
Can I use the Lee Factory Crimp die instead of roll crimping? Will that effect the Hi-Tek coating making it ineffective? Should I start with midrange Trapdoor loads? I have A2015, A5744, IMR4198, H4198 and Unique powders

[Harter66]

I can't say what .1 will do with a 45-70 but it's probably real close to adding 25 gr to the bullet weight . Purely a mechanical point of view .

It sounds like a throat , or rather lack of throat issue to me .
That or your bullet is just straight up too large .

I detest "chamber/pound cast and see what's happening there" answer , but this is a perfect place for it .

If you have one of the 45 cal taper crimp dies that only taper crimps , basically a through bored die that tapers from like .500 to .450 in it's length or with a step possibly you may have a situation where the chamber is actually necked and your brass is too big , and bullet sizing is just not happy in that last .15-.2 of the chamber .

You might try .458 sizing . I've read that while PC doesn't wholly eliminate the need for the .001-2 over groove guys are getting away with less than .0005 over .
I was recently surprised by an 1895G with a 255 gr PB greased at .458 in the .4575 groove not having any fouling after 25 rounds pushed from 1800 to 2000 fps . So it can be done and work .

I don't PC it's another set of tools to buy .....

[Stopsign32v]

I don't PC it's another set of tools to buy .....

You're talking basically a convection oven from Walmart and some $14 PC. Not exactly "set of tools"

[Dom]

I shoot a 350gr GC PC bullet from my Marlin 45-70 regularly. I load on RCBS cowboy dies & crimp in the crimp grove. Never had a problem. I believe where the problem might be is with your bullet nose design. Marlins have a "very" short lead. Therefore the bullet nose needs to fit your lead properly.That's why your round chambered when you seated the bullet deeper.286224 I've enclosed a picture of my bullet ( before & after a shot ). I know it is a funky color. . Does the nose on your bullet look much different. A little bit of difference on the nose makes a significant difference in the Marlin.

[odette]

286227286228
Not sure if these come through, but to me it looks like the flat point on mine is wider and less curve to the ogive. I loaded 10 rds with 27gn of A5744. I loaded 4 in the tube and fired. I checked each round prior to chambering to see if bullet was being pushed into the case further. They seem to held to 2.46 for OAL. The bullets were cast from a mould from LBT. I do have a .459 NOE size bushing I can try, I don't have .458.
Group was about 3 to 4" high at 50 yds and 3 to 4" spread. I know the rifle is capable of 3" groups at 100 yds with Speer 400gn and IMR4198. I would like to use full length brass, but will probably have to ream the chamber for that to work.

[Traffer]

The diameter of the bullet half way between the meplat and the case mouth is the culprit. It is too wide. The options are to get a different mold or seat them deeper.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I would size to .458 and PC with one coat. Seat to the seat grove and see if that works first. I think your boolit is too large. The 45-70 is a tapered cartridge, not much but it is. Another thing you can try is size to .458 load a dummy round and I bet it will chamber.

[Dom]

Absolutely is the bullet. Look at this 350gr I shoot in my Marlin.286231 Notice the clearance beyond the driving band. That driving band is .460. . This is the 350 gr that functions perfectly in my Marlin 45-70.

[Bigslug]

1. A pound cast of your chamber followed by careful measurements of same will tell you a lot.

2. Were you getting engraving marks from your rifling on the bullets that wouldn't chamber?

3. Put your calibers on the case at the mouth of your chambered round and take a measurement there. Compare that to the SAAMI blueprints in your loading manuals. Could be your case is bulging and you need to make adjustments to your crimping equipment.

4. .460" is possibly too fat for a modern barrel. Again, a pound cast of the chamber and a slugging of the bore will tell you a lot. The vintage BP era rifles often have about ZERO leade in their chambers to qualify as a "throat" - the rifling runs right full diameter down to the chamber, MAYBE with the barest of chamfers of the sharp corner. You might need to choose a bullet profile to work around that.

5. I don't PC, but three coats of the stuff when you have a gas check doing the majority of your sealing for you seems like a lot.

[rfd]

COAL is quite different from ogive OAL, and having been there and experienced that, I think that's maybe yer problem. This is where that Hornady comparator is invaluable and you'll instantly know the true ogive OAL for any given cartridge and bullet. As an example, I cast and PC Lee 457340 in 1:20 alloy that drops at 348 grains for my Henry s/s in .45-70 and the ogive max OAL is 2.495" - any longer and the cartridge will "jam chamber".

Bullets PC'd with Eastwood Gloss Clear ...

https://i.imgur.com/LC8xisW.jpg

[44Blam]

286227286228
Not sure if these come through, but to me it looks like the flat point on mine is wider and less curve to the ogive. I loaded 10 rds with 27gn of A5744. I loaded 4 in the tube and fired. I checked each round prior to chambering to see if bullet was being pushed into the case further. They seem to held to 2.46 for OAL. The bullets were cast from a mould from LBT. I do have a .459 NOE size bushing I can try, I don't have .458.
Group was about 3 to 4" high at 50 yds and 3 to 4" spread. I know the rifle is capable of 3" groups at 100 yds with Speer 400gn and IMR4198. I would like to use full length brass, but will probably have to ream the chamber for that to work.

I have a fairly modern Marlin 1895 and I am reasonably certain just looking at it that that shape will not chamber in mine.

The 2 boolits I shoot are NOE 460-350 RF and 460-396 RF.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/458-460/sc460-350-rf-ae1/
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/458-460/460-396-rf-ae2/
The nose is pulled in a bit more and I crimp in the crimp grove.

Be very careful with the Hornady cases - the volume is smaller so you need to adjust your loads appropriately. Whenever I find one of those, I put them in a pile and give them to a buddy who gives me brass I can actually use. He loves them because he loads that Hornady XTP bullet.

[robg]

i use the lee 350 mold<358gn with my lead> in my 45-70 .shoot as cast just tumble lube .shoot fine with no leading.if you go to barry shooting centre im on a video shooting mine.

[rfd]

i use the lee 350 mold<358gn with my lead> in my 45-70 .shoot as cast just tumble lube .shoot fine with no leading.if you go to barry shooting centre im on a video shooting mine.

Never seen a .45-70 Lee mold @ 350, only 340. What alloy mix ya using? Do you water quench to up the BHN?

[robg]

sorry 340gn mold .scrap lead /wheel weights with some lead free solder .no water quenching .22gn 2400 with quater sheet of toilet paper to hold powder in place std cci primer .same lead with gas check works in my 308 as well.

[Traffer]

sorry 340gn mold .scrap lead /wheel weights with some lead free solder .no water quenching .22gn 2400 with quater sheet of toilet paper to hold powder in place std cci primer .same lead with gas check works in my 308 as well.

I would be interested to know how that alloy compares with pure lead. Can you cast one of pure lead in that same mold to compare weights?
Also lead free solder could have other metals, like bismuth, silver along with a majority of tin.

[Tar Heel]

In the image below, you can graphically see what Traffer is pointing out. My Pedersoli .45-70 is "supposed" to have a .4500" BORE and .4580" GROOVES. Someone gave me some 480gr cast bullets from an estate and after testing them for hardness, they indicated #10 on the Saeco scale or about 22 BHN indicating they were cast in Linotype. The "ting" confirms it. They were cast from a Lee 457-500-F bullet mold. Linotype casts larger and lighter than lead hence the lighter weight and larger size. I was surprised to see the .459 size die actually size the bullets. Normally in my 45-70 alloy (30:1 or 20:1) the .459 die allows lubrication without sizing. My bullets fall from the mold at .4585".

This bullet shown was literally sized to .4590" from a larger diameter of .4600" and seated all the way down the driving band leaving the "bore riding" nose outside the case. These bullets would NOT chamber in my rifle with a .4500" bore. Measuring the nose with a good micrometer, it was confirmed that the nose was too fat at .4527" in diameter to fit into the .4500" bore. I burnished the noses with 0000 steel wool and the bullet shown bears the marks where it was engraved by the rifling prior to getting reduced completely to .4498" which is my actual bore diameter. Your "bore riding" bullet nose may be too fat for your bore. You can also see on my bullet, only two of the lands made contact with the nose. That alludes to an offset chamber but that is another whole discussion.

You can either cast in a softer alloy (more lead) to reduce the finished product diameter or you can burnish each bullet nose with steel wool to reduce nose diameter - if your bullet is a bore riding bullet design. If the nose is the same diameter as the driving bands, sizing the bullet .001" smaller will probably allow chambering and hopefully the rascal will obturate and grab the grooves fine on firing.

Hope you get it all worked out soon and have some fun at the range!

286339

[rfd]

The Lee 3576-340 mold I have drops at slightly over .459" with my own 1:20 alloy. Just after it drops and cools it gets powder coated. Then right out of the toaster oven it goes into a bucket of cold water that will up the BHN considerably. When dried off, each bullet goes thru a Lee .459" die - I pat a finger in Imperial sizing wax that puts just a hint of wax on the bullet before getting sized.

[odette]

i ordered a 460-350 RF 4 cavity gas check mould from NOE. I hope that fixes the problem.

[44Blam]

i ordered a 460-350 RF 4 cavity gas check mould from NOE. I hope that fixes the problem.

That boolit works great. I cast them with a cup point.

I've got a Montana staff sight (#101) on my 1895 and have been able to get DOPE out to 625 yards with that H335 load. I was going to go today and test similar loads with Varget and H335 but I decided to postpone until next Monday when both of my buddies couldn't go...

286352

[odette]

H335, never tried that powder. I have an old can not sure how much is in it. 44Blam do you have a starting load for 350 gn lead with H335? Are you using standard length brass? I have a lot of standard length and only 10 Hornady and made a dummy round out of one of them so only 9 to play with. Jacketed Speer 400, Hornady 300, and Sierra 300 all cycle and chamber with no problem. boolits from my 405 gn RCBS mould have to be seated just about past the crimp groove, but that is using a .460 NOE size bushing. I have a Lee .459 sizing die that was part of what I inherited from my grandpa, I will size a 405 gn with it and make a dummy round. I placed an order for the NOE mould, do you think a .458 size bushing will help?

[44Blam]

H335, never tried that powder. I have an old can not sure how much is in it. 44Blam do you have a starting load for 350 gn lead with H335? Are you using standard length brass? I have a lot of standard length and only 10 Hornady and made a dummy round out of one of them so only 9 to play with. Jacketed Speer 400, Hornady 300, and Sierra 300 all cycle and chamber with no problem. boolits from my 405 gn RCBS mould have to be seated just about past the crimp groove, but that is using a .460 NOE size bushing. I have a Lee .459 sizing die that was part of what I inherited from my grandpa, I will size a 405 gn with it and make a dummy round. I placed an order for the NOE mould, do you think a .458 size bushing will help?

Hey Odette, my barrel slugs at .4585 so I size to .460.
I use standard length cases and give my Hornady cases to a buddy who loads those XTP bullets.
**** USE THIS INFORMATION AT YOUR OWN RISK *****
I crimp on the crimp groove and my COL is: 2.500" With that 350 grain boolit, my H335 load is 54 grain. This is because I wanted it to be around 1900 fps as that is plenty of power and has a good thump but it is not a shoulder breaker. 54 grains of H335 gets me about 1920 fps and is accurate. According to Quckload, that puts the pressure at 28663 PSI and says it should be 1848 fps. For me, I won't go above this because that same boolit at above about 2000 fps is no longer fun to shoot.

I would recommend that you start lower and see how your rifle shoots that boolit. H335 is very fine ball powder and seems to burn well even at lower pressures.

With this powder, it does pressure spike pretty quickly when it starts. I was shooting it under a NOE 460-396 RF and every 1 grain increment was pushing that boolit about 20 fps faster. UNTIL I got to a certain point and it went 200 fps faster with a 1 grain increment... That particular round (I shot 3 to make sure of the FPS) leaded the bejabbers out of my barrel... SO - keep that in mind with H335.

[robg]

im not that precise i fill lee 10 pot with wheel weight lead then add a couple of yards of solder if boolits weigh within 10% of mold figure thats fine for me.my guess is close to number 2 alloy .

[odette]

I got the 460-350- RF mould today. It's profile is definitely slimmer in the nose. I will cast some this next week. Does 48 gn of H335 sound like a good start?

[44Blam]

I got the 460-350- RF mould today. It's profile is definitely slimmer in the nose. I will cast some this next week. Does 48 gn of H335 sound like a good start?

I have not loaded that low with this boolit but Quickload shows that it should give you around 1625 fps and should have a max pressure of 20167psi. You should chrono these and see if it truly does fall into that range ~1600 fps.

I would think that it won't be unpleasant to shoot and should be effective.

[gsdelong]

The very 1st thing I would do is try an uncoated boolit to see if it chambers and the a single coat of pc. I a curious why you are putting 3 coats of pc on?

Greg

[Dom]

I have an RCBS 405gr GC bullet mold. Cast from scrap WW ( 10.5 BHN ) & sized 459 + . With the case crimped into the crimp grove provided on the bullet it chambers effortlessly in my 1895 Marlin. Shoots quite well with 34grs IMR-4198 & ( my rifle only ) enough Dacron to hold the powder firmly in place. This is a light load in
MY"rifle ( 24" Bbl ) for a little over 1400 fps. According to my chrono..

[odette]

i was putting 3 coats of Hi-Tek on. There is a difference between Hi-Tek and Powder Coat. Hi-Tek goes on as a liquid and is a thin coat that can take as much as 3 coats for complete coverage. When I use Eastwood PC, I use just 1 coat. I am going to try one dummy plain, no coating of either PC or Hi-Tek. 1 with PC and 1 with Hi-Tek. I will see which chambers better using .460 and .459 sizing dies. Tried to get a .458 bushing from NOE, but the cart on the order page has not worked

[charlie b]

As others have pointed out, the throat may be part of the issue. When trying a new bullet I will color it with a sharpie and then chamber it. I seat it deeper as I go until I just barely get rifling marks on the blackened area.

PC and HiTek increase the dia of the bullet, including the nose. Sizing does not decrease the dia of the ogive area. So, a plain bullet that fits nicely in the bore will have to be seated deeper, usually by quite a bit (0.1" or more). The taper of the ogive is working against you here. This can affect which powder load you use since you are decreasing case volume, so be careful there.

Seating deeper is not that big a deal and you can still have very accurate loads, just use a bit less powder.

PS if you are going to be shooting a lot of cast in this rifle you may consider having the barrel throated for cast.

[odette]

I have found an RCBS 405gn mould and boolits also a Saeco 405gn spire point, both are gas check. I have not used them yet as I found an ice cream bucket of bullets from each mould. I have no clue the lead mix used. Bullets are runnning around 426gn. Any idea if these moulds are 405gn wheel weight moulds. I PC'd a few of the RCBS flat points with Eastwood Powder Coat and I can just seat them at the top of the crimp groove and close the lever. I cast a few 350gn from the NOE mould and will seat a bullet no lube no coating of any kind sized at .458, .459 and .460. I will do the same sizing 3 PC'd bullets and see if they chamber seated in the crimp groove

[odette]

I sized one bullet to .4585 with a Lee sizer. I made a dummy round, seating to the crimp groove and tried it it the 1895LTD. This was a plain no lube, no PC bullet. It almost chambered, but the final .05 I could feel contact in the barrel. I ejected the round and could see a slight ring at the nose of the bullet where contact was made.

[44Blam]

I sized one bullet to .4585 with a Lee sizer. I made a dummy round, seating to the crimp groove and tried it it the 1895LTD. This was a plain no lube, no PC bullet. It almost chambered, but the final .05 I could feel contact in the barrel. I ejected the round and could see a slight ring at the nose of the bullet where contact was made.

Dang - I have the plain jane 1895 that I bought in 2019... I trim my cases using the lee trim die and I seat pretty much to the top of the crimp grove that way when I crimp it in it goes kind of in the middle. But I also powder coat which adds about 0.001" to both sides. Occasionally when chambering I feel it engage the lands but I generally try to load cast boolits so they are as close as possible to the lands to avoid excessive jump.

Seems strange that you would get a ring... For me, on the ones that do engage the lands I only get the impression of the lands on the nose of the boolit in the PC... The LTD must have a bit of a tighter throat?

[mehavey]

"...made a dummy round, seating to the crimp groove and tried it it the 1895LTD.
This was a plain no lube, no PC bullet. It almost chambered, but the final
0.05 I could feel contact in the barrel. I ejected the round and could see a slight
ring at the nose of the bullet where contact was made."Sounds like you found both your problem, and your solution.
Thin-film Lee Liquid ALOX (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411499-severe-leading-on-first-cast-boolits&p=5022012&viewfull=1#post5022012), load for slight engagement, and call it a day.

[pjames32]

I use the NOE 460-350 sized .459 in my 1895 Marlin. I crimp in the crimp groove with RCBS cowboy dies and have had no chamber problems. Hope your new molds solve your problem.

[odette]

been working and had to hold off playing with this bullet. I managed to find a Henry X Model 45-70 and was compelled to snatch it up. I tried the LBT 350 gn and it did the same as the Marlin 1895, maybe even a little tighter fit. Will try the NOE sized at .459 gas checked and PC'd. Unfortunately, I found no H335, neither at home, in stores or online. Any one use A5744, A2015, H4198, IMR4198 and have a good starting lever load. I have some IMR3031 but it has red dust in it, so think it is bad

[dondiego]

been working and had to hold off playing with this bullet. I managed to find a Henry X Model 45-70 and was compelled to snatch it up. I tried the LBT 350 gn and it did the same as the Marlin 1895, maybe even a little tighter fit. Will try the NOE sized at .459 gas checked and PC'd. Unfortunately, I found no H335, neither at home, in stores or online. Any one use A5744, A2015, H4198, IMR4198 and have a good starting lever load. I have some IMR3031 but it has red dust in it, so think it is bad
I shot a pound of old IMR 4227 that had red rust in it. Worked fine. Try it first.

[odette]

I loaded 10 rds using the NOE mould, bullets were PC'd OAL was 2.49" and lever would not close on either the Henry or the Marlin. I loaded 10 more rds with bullets sized and lubed on RCBS lube/sizer, no PC. These fit in both rifles and had bullets seated to the same OAL as the other 10. I seated the 1st 10 to OAL of 2.484 and they fit both rifles. Bullets are seated just past the crimp groove and factory crimped. 1st 10 are loaded with 33.8 gn of A5744, 2nd 10 loaded 34.3 A5744. I will compare 5 rds of each load out of both rifles and plan to do the same with every increase in powder and loads from other powders I try.