Heavy slugs

[jordanka16]

I just got a Henry rifled slug gun in a trade, and since I don't hunt I don't really have a use for it other than fun.

I thought it might be cool to shoot really heavy slugs out of it like an old stopping rifle. I was going to try the magtech brass cases but I realize now they are probably too wide on the inside to work with a bullet of groove diameter.

As I see it the only option is the very expensive RMC cases, or loading in uncrimped plastic hulls.

My plan now is to slug the bore and purchase a mold of an appropriate size bullet in the 900-1000 grain range, and load that on top of a case of black powder in either a 3" plastic or brass hull.

Any thoughts? Any reason this wouldn't work? Has someone already done something like this before, maybe with smokeless? It would be hard to develop a safe load with smokeless working blind I suspect.

[megasupermagnum]

Sure, many of us have done similar, although not quite to 1000 grains. You don't need any special case if you don't want it, even a regular old 2 3/4" plastic case fold crimped has enough room. I've been very curious about the Henry slug gun. If you don't mind, can you take a few measurements of the OD of the barrel in a few spots? Also, how much does it weigh if you have a scale?

You can use smokeless powder, but you have to know what you are doing. Blackpowder by comparison is about idiot proof. I couldn't even imagine how much black powder it would take to become dangerous, 200+ grains I'm sure, and I doubt you can fit that much in a normal shotgun shell.

The twist rate of that Henry is such that you should be able to stabilize those heavy slugs at a reasonably slow velocity. With a 1000 grain slug, I think 900 fps is a realistic number. A much easier path is to choose a slightly lighter slug, so that you can find shot data for them. In a 12 gauge, that is going to be up to about 875 grains at the top end, and even more data in the 656 to 766 grain range. If you search a member called Turbo, he used to mess with 1000 grain slugs, and he had data listed. I messed with a 950 grain slug once, but I think it's getting into the territory of too much of a good thing. I was even shooting them out of a 10 pound Ultra slug hunter, and I'd bet your Henry is lighter than that. Unless you get a gun 15, and ideally closer to 20 pounds, these really strong loads are pretty ridiculous.

If you go down to the special projects section of this forum, you will find a thread on someone shooting a "12 gauge from hell", essentially a 12 gauge full of rifle powder, yet running at reasonable pressures for a really strong gun, which I do NOT know if your Henry is up to. Anyway, you can find videos of him shooting super strong loads like 700+ grain slugs at 1600 fps up to I think he made it to 2200 fps or so in an Ultra slug hunter that he weighted to 14 pounds (don't quote me). The gist of it is, it makes a huge explosion on the targets, but the guys only ever shoot it ONCE. Numerous times I asked him to shoot a group with it, and after all this time he has refused. That should tell you.

About the most fun you can have is a .735" round ball. You don't need to measure your groove diameter for these, as long as your groove is somewhere in the ballpark of .725" to .735", which it will be, they shoot really well. Cast these of a strong alloy, and if you want extra hardness, water drop them. They weigh around 580 grains, and are an absolute animal with a hefty charge of Bluedot. I've not tried them in a shotgun shell with blackpowder, but the idea is the same. The only wads you need are an X12X gas seal, and a nitro cards. They shoot really well, better than most slugs I've tried. Penetration of these is on par with most solid 45-70 loads, but leave a gaping hole. The only deer I shot with them dropped on the spot with a nice big hole through the lungs.

[NyFirefighter357]

Is this your gun?

www.henryusa.com/shotgun/single-shot-slug-barrel-shotgun/

At under 7lbs you may only shoot one of those 1,000gr slugs! I don't think it's going to be much "fun"!

I'm looking to go the other way, light for caliber zinc slugs like the Lyman pellet slug.

[longbow]

What msm said.

Do a search for turbo1889. He posted info on a few heavy slugs along with load data IIRC.

Also do a search for 12bore (Greg Sappington). He had a mould made to cast a 1043gr. Keith style SWC. He loaded to about 1000/1100 fps and said recoil was quite tolerable and penetration was outstanding!

I think he posted load data for it as well. I have that load data if he didn't post it here.

My inclination is for the old Kynoch Paradox bullet at 740 grs. Those have a large radius groove that a plastic hull can be "crimped" into to hold the slug. IIRC Ross Seyfried did that for his Paradox gun. I know I have seen it done.

CBE makes a faithful Paradox slug mould.

If you want heavy look to Accurate Molds. Tom has a good selection of full bore slug molds.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Sure, many of us have done similar, although not quite to 1000 grains. You don't need any special case if you don't want it, even a regular old 2 3/4" plastic case fold crimped has enough room. I've been very curious about the Henry slug gun. If you don't mind, can you take a few measurements of the OD of the barrel in a few spots? Also, how much does it weigh if you have a scale?

You can use smokeless powder, but you have to know what you are doing. Blackpowder by comparison is about idiot proof. I couldn't even imagine how much black powder it would take to become dangerous, 200+ grains I'm sure, and I doubt you can fit that much in a normal shotgun shell.

The twist rate of that Henry is such that you should be able to stabilize those heavy slugs at a reasonably slow velocity. With a 1000 grain slug, I think 900 fps is a realistic number. A much easier path is to choose a slightly lighter slug, so that you can find shot data for them. In a 12 gauge, that is going to be up to about 875 grains at the top end, and even more data in the 656 to 766 grain range. If you search a member called Turbo, he used to mess with 1000 grain slugs, and he had data listed. I messed with a 950 grain slug once, but I think it's getting into the territory of too much of a good thing. I was even shooting them out of a 10 pound Ultra slug hunter, and I'd bet your Henry is lighter than that. Unless you get a gun 15, and ideally closer to 20 pounds, these really strong loads are pretty ridiculous.

If you go down to the special projects section of this forum, you will find a thread on someone shooting a "12 gauge from hell", essentially a 12 gauge full of rifle powder, yet running at reasonable pressures for a really strong gun, which I do NOT know if your Henry is up to. Anyway, you can find videos of him shooting super strong loads like 700+ grain slugs at 1600 fps up to I think he made it to 2200 fps or so in an Ultra slug hunter that he weighted to 14 pounds (don't quote me). The gist of it is, it makes a huge explosion on the targets, but the guys only ever shoot it ONCE. Numerous times I asked him to shoot a group with it, and after all this time he has refused. That should tell you.

About the most fun you can have is a .735" round ball. You don't need to measure your groove diameter for these, as long as your groove is somewhere in the ballpark of .725" to .735", which it will be, they shoot really well. Cast these of a strong alloy, and if you want extra hardness, water drop them. They weigh around 580 grains, and are an absolute animal with a hefty charge of Bluedot. I've not tried them in a shotgun shell with blackpowder, but the idea is the same. The only wads you need are an X12X gas seal, and a nitro cards. They shoot really well, better than most slugs I've tried. Penetration of these is on par with most solid 45-70 loads, but leave a gaping hole. The only deer I shot with them dropped on the spot with a nice big hole through the lungs.


Thanks for the info! Yeah I dont expect to shoot it a lot, more just for fun or to let others have fun with, you know ;)

I'm not looking to turn it into a super magnum, like nyfirefighter said it's probably too light to ever want to do that anyway, just want to mess around.

I can take some measurements for you sure, it's got a pretty thick barrel which is why I'm even considering this.

[jordanka16]

What msm said.

Do a search for turbo1889. He posted info on a few heavy slugs along with load data IIRC.

Also do a search for 12bore (Greg Sappington). He had a mould made to cast a 1043gr. Keith style SWC. He loaded to about 1000/1100 fps and said recoil was quite tolerable and penetration was outstanding!

I think he posted load data for it as well. I have that load data if he didn't post it here.

My inclination is for the old Kynoch Paradox bullet at 740 grs. Those have a large radius groove that a plastic hull can be "crimped" into to hold the slug. IIRC Ross Seyfried did that for his Paradox gun. I know I have seen it done.

CBE makes a faithful Paradox slug mould.

If you want heavy look to Accurate Molds. Tom has a good selection of full bore slug molds.

Longbow

A keith SWC is exactly what I was thinking! Do you know who made his mold or if a drawing exists so I can have accurate make me one? I searched but couldn't find anything about him.

Getting the load data would be excellent as well.

[longbow]

Not sure about a drawing but I have pics of the mould I'll look up and post.

Here is a link to one of his posts on shotgunworld:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=132539&start=20

And here's a pic of the mould cavity:

286220

Listed as both 1043 grains and 1143 grains so not sure which is correct offhand but heavy either way!

The link to the shotgunworld post above has the same load data I have.

Greg didn't send me a mould drawing, just pics and info so not sure if he has the drawing or not. He hasn't posted here for quite a while and I haven't heard from him for a couple of years now. If you want a mould, Tom at Accurate can likely make a mould to match the pic. Alternately the pic can be imported into a CAD program like AutoCAD and "traced" then scaled to correct diameter. After that dimensions can be adjusted to give you the design and weight you want. He shows several slugs over 1000 grs. in his catalogue though nothing quite like Greg's design. Tom can make what you want though.

Here is what I was saying about the big "crimp" groove for Paradox slugs:

286221

Those would be paper hulls but same can be done with plastic hulls.

The Paradox slugs are only 740 grs. so lighter than what you want but historically correct! I have a copy of the Kynoch drawing if you want it. Tom should be able to come very close to original design and CBE in Australia makes a mould.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Thanks longbow, that is extremely helpful! I sent a message to Greg asking for some info, a drawing if he has it or if not some basic measurements of the slug and I can extrapolate from there. Failing that I could take some measurements from the photo and go from there.

I was going to scale up an existing bullet to the right size but I thought I might end up with some funky results, the lube groove being one. That photo confirmed my suspicions, the lube groove is much smaller relative to the rest of the bullet than a smaller diameter projectile.

The next hurdle is a sizing die, either for a lube sizer or a push through type, any way to get one that size, or is this a shoot as cast situation?

[Hogtamer]

Loading that slug with anything beyond the trajectory of a brick is gonna knock you flat, then stomp you. But I understand the impulse....Everybody's gotta learn their own lessons.

[Blood Trail]

I cast a few heavies. Accurate molds do make some wonderful stuff.

Here’s a couple heavy hitters:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/ea8d670d16a530131803bd90d9463138.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/e4a67c1d9a969f1b47f2ab0fc7ce1e61.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/f294099f9b405409fb9ceecaa55d97f8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/f6b18d55f6e027f6ed8e86f05e0205ed.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blood Trail]

Here’s some more 800+ grain slugs I pressure tested for a game warden from Montana. These are hard cast and was shot into 200lbs of wet sand from 12 yards, the avg distance he has to dispatch a bear:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/27d85b099194d4f45470017f6c911abe.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/a8d161d7244e291de2e63eb705b91694.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/36cccb8b511974c46f5bddc2155a6dd4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/dfb4f295febfdd2b77118f1005b21380.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/981f9c3e3a6792c5cbef82c120fba19e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210718/16a2a6ec3c84670d6ada918c4e94e5fe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jordanka16]

Wow that is some impressive performance, until I started looking into this I had no idea what shotguns were capable of with standard pressures. I figured I'd be stuck with black powder and would never be able to use smokeless with such a heavy slug, but now I think I could just use smokeless after finding all the data and testing that's been done.

Yeah I know it probably will hurt like no other to shoot, but I still want to try. Like you say I want to experience it for myself :)

[jordanka16]

And for those interested, some measurements;

Muzzle OD .997
Breech OD 1.100

Groove .727
Bore .719

And it weighs 7lbs 2 oz

[megasupermagnum]

That's a nice heavy barrel. The thickness has no bearing on safety, even thin barrels (within reason) can handle some very strong pressures. What it really gets you is a barrel less prone to any kind of stress or heat AKA, more accurate. That and the heavier the barrel, the more the entire gun weighs, which is a good thing. I'm surprised they only weigh a little over 7 pounds. If I were you, I would take the recoil pad off, and fill that stock hole with all the lead shot that can fit. If it felt too rear heavy, I'd put a bipod on the sling stud.

Certainly don't be afraid to use blackpowder. Get yourself some Goex Fg (Goex Olde Eynsford Fg can be even better), and you can make some fantastic ammo with that. Blackpowder is also in stock some places right now, where most any good smokeless powder for the very heavy slugs is going to be hard to get. The main powder for very heavy slugs is Bluedot, although there is some data out there for STEEL and 800X. I'm no fan of Longshot, and very heavy slugs is definitely not a place I would use it. Longshot is at it's best with light payloads at very high velocity.

I sold my Accurate 73-934CN. I couldn't get it to shoot well. I still have an Accurate 73-770S, and that one shoots very well. About the only thing I can fault on the design, is it has a relatively small flat nose on it. It seems kind of a waste to me to send such a freight train down range with a relative needle point on it. In actuality, it is probably so blunt, it would act like a big round nose anyway. Of Accurate's "super heavy 12 ga SWC's", I'd say the most practical is going to be the 73-820S. They are all going to be slow freight trains, so you may as well shoot one that is going to slap your target. Some of them are extremely blunt, as to really be full wadcutter's. I'd be worried those very blunt ones wouldn't be very accurate at 100 yards. I still say you should get a .735" ball mold too. Buy from JT Ball moulds, and order a .738", which should drop about .735". A round ball is exceptionally accurate, about as effective as you can get for hunting, aren't a lightweight at all yet are still a reasonable weight for shooting, and best of all they fall right from the mold. Pistol shooters talk about bullets that rain from the mold, well they don't have anything compared to how easy a round ball cast's. If you really hate yourself that much, there is no rule that says you can't shoot two balls at once for a total of about 1160 grains.

Bullet lube for slugs is about as forgiving as you can get. I've shot over 50 of those Accurate 73-770S's without any lube at all. That was an as-cast slug, dry as a bone, and I got no leading. A lot of times I'll do a single tumble coat in either Lee Alox or White Lubes Alox. That works great, and is super easy. You could pan or dip lube the slugs in normal wax bullet lube, but that is a lot of work for nothing. Some guys powder coat their slugs, and it too works, although I wouldn't start coating only for slugs, as there is no benefit. If you already powder coat bullets, then by all means, coat your slugs.

P.S. if you got those ID barrel measurements with a calipers, chances are very good your groove is actually .729". Henry barrels are generally very close to SAMMI spec, and I would expect no different from a slug barrel. You can go quite oversized on slugs if you want with no issues. Since there is no throat in a shotgun, and the bores are so large, the size of the slug doesn't matter much. I'd definitely get it at least groove diameter, but it doesn't really matter if it is .002" larger or .005" or even .010" larger than that. By about .740", they start to get hard to chamber though. If ordering from Accurate, I'd order .730" +.002" tolerance.

[jordanka16]

So before I try anything heavy I'm going to play around with lighter slugs first just to be sure. I'm ordering some .735 roundballs and another member is going to send me some heavier slugs.

I do still think the 1000+ grain is a possibility though, and to that end since I couldn't find any info beyond that photo of the heavy slug I went ahead and made a CAD file of the slug based on the photo so I could possibly have one made at a later date. Looks like it will be pretty cool. I was going to change it to be more of a real SWC, but I didn't think it would really make a difference in a shotgun shell so I left the nose as is.


286348

[megasupermagnum]

That's not a bad drawing, although I don't think you will have any use for a double crimp groove. Nothing you do will get you to the rifling, which at best is about 3/4" from the start of the forcing cone, and your case mouth is likely not exactly to the forcing cone either. There's no performance to be gained. If you get custom RMC shells, which RMC is going out of business, you will have excess powder space no matter what. There's nothing wrong with a truncated cone nose, and your meplat looks good and proportional.

[jordanka16]

That's not a bad drawing, although I don't think you will have any use for a double crimp groove. Nothing you do will get you to the rifling, which at best is about 3/4" from the start of the forcing cone, and your case mouth is likely not exactly to the forcing cone either. There's no performance to be gained. If you get custom RMC shells, which RMC is going out of business, you will have excess powder space no matter what. There's nothing wrong with a truncated cone nose, and your meplat looks good and proportional.

The crimp grooves were just in the original mold so I included them, I suspected they wouldn't help either, except perhaps with allowing excess metal someplace to flow, but I don't know about that.

Perhaps eliminating the crimp grooves and doubling up on the lube groove or adding another smaller lube groove would help if I end up shooting any of these with black powder.

I didn't know RMC was going out of business, I was intending to do all of this with plastic hulls, because it seems like they work just fine, but I may have to order 10 cases just to have them. They would certainly look more impressive

[megasupermagnum]

Yes RMC will soon close their doors. If you want them, get them ASAP. I would either make that slug with three grease grooves, or one crimp groove and two grease grooves. I personally believe a number of grooves help for the reason you describe. They allow metal to displace somewhere. I forgot to mention that with blackpowder you can pan lube them, and a simple lube is 50/50 beeswax and Crisco or olive oil. Alternatively, you can add a grease cookie under the slug. The simplest way might be to simply use a lube soaked wool wad under the slug.

[jordanka16]

Here's an edit, I think it looks a little better really, more like a shotgun slug.286351

[jordanka16]

I'm going to play around with the design some since I have some time before I will order the big mold, but I did go ahead an order a ball mold from JT since it sounds like a round ball is pretty versatile.

Originally I was going to order a few pre cast ones just to test but I realized they are probably pure lead for a muzzleloader and that likely wouldn't work well.

I shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders so I have plenty of lube for the bullets, and 2 lube sizers but I don't think a die could be made for either unfortunately. It looks like I'll have to have someone custom make me a push through sizer or else just shoot them as cast. The bullets that is, not the round balls.

[iomskp]

I have a couple of 12 bore rifles and I use the CBE mold at about 740 Gr, a friend of mine has an early CBE hollow point mold I think it drops a about 900 Gr he is happy with the results.

[longbow]

I'd be inclined to use tumble lube grooves or multiple small lube grooves and narrow driving bands. Tumble lube or pan lube should work well.

Nothing wrong with the 2nd drawing though. That's a good looking slug.

I'll be watching for range reports in the not too distant future!

Longbow

[jordanka16]

I'd be inclined to use tumble lube grooves or multiple small lube grooves and narrow driving bands. Tumble lube or pan lube should work well.

Nothing wrong with the 2nd drawing though. That's a good looking slug.

I'll be watching for range reports in the not too distant future!

Longbow

I want to keep the option of using black powder open so tumble lube grooves wouldn't work.

I'm still playing with it though, so I'll have to see how one with smaller lube grooves looks, maybe shrink the bottom groove and add a small one up top that can do double duty as a crimp groove.

[longbow]

For BP I'd think a lube cookie or lubed felt wad under the slug would be the best way to go. I doubt you'll get enough lube in "normal" lube grooves to keep fouling soft. The old Paradox slug style with the giant groove should hold enough lube... kinda like an oversize collar button! For hunting or defense, not an issue because you're not likely to take many shots but to go to the range and shoot a few rounds I am thinking you'll need a lot of lube.

Keep us posted on whatever you do and how it all works out. Interesting project!

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I don't have a slug in the tumble lube style, but I have two pistol, sold one pistol, and have one rifle molds with tumble lube sides. I'll be brutally honest, I think they are useless. The idea being that they hold more tumble lube than a normal bullet, might be true, but who cares? A normal bullet works not just ok, but really well with tumble lube. If you need more lube, you do another coat. I see no advantage at all to a tumble lube style bullet. I designed one bullet like that for the simple reason I thought they might function as a bunch of crimp grooves. I'm not convinced they work any better than a smooth sided bullet for that. I have never seen a tumble lube style bullet shoot very well. I had both Lee 41 magnum molds, the 195 gr traditional style lubed SWC, and the 210 gr tumble lube style SWC. The 195 gr shot ok, not fantastic, but acceptable. The 210 gr shoots like garbage. That's with both being lubed with Alox tumble lube.

Based on my experiences, I will always opt for a normal lubed bullet. They are more versatile, being able to use all types of lube. They are generally more accurate. And if you ever sell the mold, they are easiest to sell.

[longbow]

The reason I suggested a tumble lube style was not for lube but for metal displacement. I didn't mention that. The slug can be larger than groove diameter but with the small contact area at each peak and lots of grooves there is lots of room for lead to swage. Multiple narrow bands and grooves like a Loverin style boolit should work the same.

Just thinking that a large/long slug with lots of bearing surface and wide driving bands might result in higher pressure with all that lead being swaged to bore and groove.

Having said that, Greg's heavy slug design uses conventional grooves and he apparently got good accuracy from it.

Maybe not an issue.

For BP though I think a lot of lube is in order so lube cookie or lubed wad under the slug would be a good idea. When I tried BP under round balls many years ago I got a lot of hard fouling if there wasn't a healthy dose of lube. That was smoothbore, not rifled gun.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

What he has drawn is a hefty payload of bullet lube. It may not look like much, but I wouldn't be surprised that holds almost 10 grains of lube. I shot the 73-770S lubed with my 50-50 lube. Fouling was no problem at all with Goex Fg. Accuracy was good too, and recoil was very reasonable at 100 grains of powder. If I took all the wads out, you could probably get 150 grains in a 2 3/4" case with that slug, maybe a little more.

[longbow]

That 73-770S is a good looking slug too. Those look like pretty large lube grooves so should carry a lot.

Call me a heretic but I found that I got better results using FFFg than Fg or FFg in the 12 ga. I used to have a Pedersoli side by as well and used FFFg in that too. I don't recall what powder granulation I was using with the round balls in cartridges over BP but I do remember the ugly build up of hard fouling! I wound up putting a lube cookie under the balls and that pretty much solved it.

Regardless, a good BP lube will be in order. The fireball and smoke is a lot of fun! To add to it I had a Pow-R-Pac choke with muzzle brake on that gun and it had a 20" barrel... that added to the fireball! I was loading 110 grs. of BP under 0.690" RB's. Not very accurate but fun to shoot.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Final edit, I do agree this one looks better, and more versatile if I ever needed a crimp groove. Should carry plenty of lube. Weight in pure lead will be 1084 gr.286459

[megasupermagnum]

I don't see anything wrong with that. You would probably want to cast them of something other than pure lead, although pure lead will work. With clip on wheel weights, they might be real close to 1000 grains. That's a lot of mass heading down range. They might not blow up a water bottle like a 300 win mag can, but boy, I don't think you can drink enough milk in a year to get enough water jugs to stop one of those monsters.

[jordanka16]

I don't see anything wrong with that. You would probably want to cast them of something other than pure lead, although pure lead will work. With clip on wheel weights, they might be real close to 1000 grains. That's a lot of mass heading down range. They might not blow up a water bottle like a 300 win mag can, but boy, I don't think you can drink enough milk in a year to get enough water jugs to stop one of those monsters.

For sure I'll use harder lead, the weight in pure lead is just a reference, since pure leads density is easy to find. The image should also say the volume is .378 cubic inches, not density, I made a typo.

Don't know how much fun they'll be to actually fire but there's only one way to find out. I sent the design off to Tom so soon anyone else will be able to join me in the pain, lol.

[W.R.Buchanan]

For sure I'll use harder lead, the weight in pure lead is just a reference, since pure leads density is easy to find. The image should also say the volume is .378 cubic inches, not density, I made a typo.

Don't know how much fun they'll be to actually fire but there's only one way to find out. I sent the design off to Tom so soon anyone else will be able to join me in the pain, lol.

There is another much cheaper way to find out. Buy a 5 round package of Brenneke 3" Magnum Crush Slugs.

These are 1 1/2 oz (655 gr) slugs with a MV of 1604 Fps! You will only fire one! But you will have 4 left in case Jurassic Park ever comes to fruition.

What you want to do will probably break your shoulder.

Guns to fire that big a round would need to weigh in excess of 12-14 lbs.

I'm more of a "Low Recoil Kind of Guy," and there is little that will live thru a 1 oz slug at 1200 fps.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

It won't break his shoulder, it just won't be pleasant. I've never been able to get my hands on those Breneke gold crush's. Those are by far the most powerful factory slug you can buy for a 12 gauge. If you just want to get a taste of recoil, one slug you can find in a lot of stores is the Federal 3" 1 1/4oz powershok slug at 1600 fps. Fire one of those in a 5 1/4 pound H&R single shot, and you see a flash before your eyes... and it isn't muzzle flash.

By my calculations, that Federal 1 1/4 oz slug in this Henry should be just over 52 ft/lb recoil. By comparison, a 1000 grain slug at 900 fps would be 55 ft/lb, pretty close. I'm sure you can get to 1000 fps safely with that slug, which would put you up to just over 65 ft/lb. That should be squarely in the 458 caliber elephant rifle territory.

[jordanka16]

I'm planning to add some weight to it, some lead in the stock and I have a LPVO with some good eye relief I'll try and see if that will work safely. My goal is 9-10 lbs, just to increase the comfort some.

[dsh1106]

Why not powder coat the slug? Even soft lead wont sag or lean at 375 - 400 degrees unless the its a hollow base with a thin skirt. I've seen some really impressive PC jobs that held up under some hard core testing.

Scott

[jordanka16]

Why not powder coat the slug? Even soft lead wont sag or lean at 375 - 400 degrees unless the its a hollow base with a thin skirt. I've seen some really impressive PC jobs that held up under some hard core testing.

Scott

I've shot some PC bullets and I have a friend that does that so I'll probably end up taking some to him for that treatment.

[longbow]

Recoil might not be that horrendous using the IMR4227 data Greg gives in that Shotgunworld post. He told me that if velocity was under 1100 FPS recoil wasn't too bad. I'll wait for you to confirm that though.

Ed Hubel posted some very hefty IMR4227 load data in his thread but seems to me it was for lighter slugs at rather impressive velocities.

Either way... I say a thick padded jacket would be an asset!

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Has anyone tried 2400 powder? I see blue dot recommended a lot but I don't have any and like everything it's impossible to find. I have 4227 for the heavier loads but I wanted to try some of the lighter loads first and I have a bunch of 2400 powder.

[megasupermagnum]

To be honest, there is no reason 2400 would not make a fine slug powder for heavy loads, but you will not find any data for it. I can not recommend anyone use 2400 powder, as I've never used it myself. It is a powder with almost no data in shotguns. There's probably some .410 data, maybe 28 gauge, but I really doubt you will find any 20 gauge or larger data.

You will not find any published 4227 data either. Ed Hubel didn't seem too keen on 4227, and I take that as a good reason not to mess with it. It could probably work, but why bother?

Bluedot is going to be the most forgiving powder, it is hard to undercharge with a slug this heavy. There is very little chance of of a blooper. It is also forgiving on the top end, as you would have to be pretty reckless to get into dangerous territory if you are following load data at all. There is also a ton of data out there for Bluedot, although you are going to be looking for 2 1/4 oz data, which is only going to be found in a 3 1/2" shell. I believe this will be ok, since a slug is a lot more compact than shot.

A number of members are having good luck with STEEL powder. STEEL is kind of like if 800x and Bluedot had a baby. It has huge flakes like 800x, but has a ton of retardant coating to slow down the burn even slower than Bluedot. There isn't a ton of data for STEEL, but you will find some data for the super heavy stuff like 2 1/4 oz turkey loads. As the name implies, it is mainly for steel shot, which you can not use that data.

800X is a slightly faster powder, similar to longshot, but a lot more controllable. I'm sure 800x would work well for this, but this isn't the powder I'd be trying to push past 1000 fps. I'd actually say to stay at 900 fps with this just to be safe, as I don't think you will find any 2 1/4 data.

Longshot is a very odd powder. Some burn charts show it being slow like Bluedot, some show it almost as fast as Herco. Longshot is a fine ball powder, that has a bunch of retardants to slow it down, and make it burn more progressively. I can not recommend longshot for a slug like this. Where longshot shines is if you want to send say a 1 ounce slug at 1600+ fps. It loves speed, but it is also prone to problems at the lower end, and is probably the worst powder for bloopers. Longshot also seems to raise pressures greatly with heavier payloads. While Longshot is a speed demon at 1 ounce, almost unmatched by any other powder, by 1 1/2 ounce, 800x is actually shooting faster.

My recommendation is if you cant find Bluedot, STEEL, or 800x, then go to blackpowder. Any real blackpowder will work. I'm not sure I'd mess with any of the substitutes. Maybe Pyrodex if you were really desperate. Since you already shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders, I'm guessing you are familiar with the various choices. My preference is Goex Fg. If what you have is FFg or FFFg, use that.

[jordanka16]

4227 is what Greg (12 bore) used for his test and posted some data, I found where Ed mentioned using it as well, but not as much as he talked about really slow powders, like reloder 17 or 26. But I dont feel like burning 100 grains of powder every shot, lol.

The first mold I'll likely have in hand is the roundball mold, which is about 1 3/8 oz, so I'm trying to find some suitable powder for that. I'm really hoping I can find some blue dot, since it seems preferred and I don't have either 800x or steel. I've never even seen Steel for sale in my local stores, but to be fair I've never looked.

Even though I inherited my grandfathers Mec 9000 I've never really reloaded shotshell, outside of when I used his machine when I was a kid and he set it up.

[jordanka16]

Failing that I do have lots of FFg and FFFg to use.

[Blood Trail]

There is another much cheaper way to find out. Buy a 5 round package of Brenneke 3" Magnum Crush Slugs.

These are 1 1/2 oz (655 gr) slugs with a MV of 1604 Fps! You will only fire one! But you will have 4 left in case Jurassic Park ever comes to fruition.

What you want to do will probably break your shoulder.

Guns to fire that big a round would need to weigh in excess of 12-14 lbs.

I'm more of a "Low Recoil Kind of Guy," and there is little that will live thru a 1 oz slug at 1200 fps.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blood Trail]

To be honest, there is no reason 2400 would not make a fine slug powder for heavy loads, but you will not find any data for it. I can not recommend anyone use 2400 powder, as I've never used it myself. It is a powder with almost no data in shotguns. There's probably some .410 data, maybe 28 gauge, but I really doubt you will find any 20 gauge or larger data.

You will not find any published 4227 data either. Ed Hubel didn't seem too keen on 4227, and I take that as a good reason not to mess with it. It could probably work, but why bother?

Bluedot is going to be the most forgiving powder, it is hard to undercharge with a slug this heavy. There is very little chance of of a blooper. It is also forgiving on the top end, as you would have to be pretty reckless to get into dangerous territory if you are following load data at all. There is also a ton of data out there for Bluedot, although you are going to be looking for 2 1/4 oz data, which is only going to be found in a 3 1/2" shell. I believe this will be ok, since a slug is a lot more compact than shot.

A number of members are having good luck with STEEL powder. STEEL is kind of like if 800x and Bluedot had a baby. It has huge flakes like 800x, but has a ton of retardant coating to slow down the burn even slower than Bluedot. There isn't a ton of data for STEEL, but you will find some data for the super heavy stuff like 2 1/4 oz turkey loads. As the name implies, it is mainly for steel shot, which you can not use that data.

800X is a slightly faster powder, similar to longshot, but a lot more controllable. I'm sure 800x would work well for this, but this isn't the powder I'd be trying to push past 1000 fps. I'd actually say to stay at 900 fps with this just to be safe, as I don't think you will find any 2 1/4 data.

Longshot is a very odd powder. Some burn charts show it being slow like Bluedot, some show it almost as fast as Herco. Longshot is a fine ball powder, that has a bunch of retardants to slow it down, and make it burn more progressively. I can not recommend longshot for a slug like this. Where longshot shines is if you want to send say a 1 ounce slug at 1600+ fps. It loves speed, but it is also prone to problems at the lower end, and is probably the worst powder for bloopers. Longshot also seems to raise pressures greatly with heavier payloads. While Longshot is a speed demon at 1 ounce, almost unmatched by any other powder, by 1 1/2 ounce, 800x is actually shooting faster.

My recommendation is if you cant find Bluedot, STEEL, or 800x, then go to blackpowder. Any real blackpowder will work. I'm not sure I'd mess with any of the substitutes. Maybe Pyrodex if you were really desperate. Since you already shoot BPCR and muzzleloaders, I'm guessing you are familiar with the various choices. My preference is Goex Fg. If what you have is FFg or FFFg, use that.

Lightfield used to make the only factory 3.5” 12 ga slug. That packed a wallop.

I wouldn’t mess with 800x for a slug that heavy. Before I got my pressure trace 2, I sent some fury slugs off to Precision Reloading for pressure testing (there’s a thread on here about it).

That slug is 580 grs and I was way over pressured with what I though was a modest charge of 35 grs. I use 37 grs for the Hammerhead slug and it’s within pressure. Difference is, I built up a hard launch slug column for the fury slug where the hammerhead slug uses that SPW wad with a crush section.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[358429]

You guys are tough and adventurous.

Especially the shoulder pockets! Shooting gunstock cracking loads like that!

This talk of thousand grain semiwadcutter bullets at thousand plus feet per second has me captivated.

I am shooting 170 grain semiwadcutter bullets target shooting. My bullets are so little! Haha!

Are you shooting steel plates to watch them get bent, like bottle caps in my fingers?

I wonder how much it would swing, if you shot the ballistic pendulum (large log suspended by ropes).

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

You guys are tough and adventurous.

Especially the shoulder pockets! Shooting gunstock cracking loads like that!

This talk of thousand grain semiwadcutter bullets at thousand plus feet per second has me captivated.

I am shooting 170 grain semiwadcutter bullets target shooting. My bullets are so little! Haha!

Are you shooting steel plates to watch them get bent, like bottle caps in my fingers?

I wonder how much it would swing, if you shot the ballistic pendulum (large log suspended by ropes).

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Well, these aren't THAT crazy of loads. There's still a number of big game rifles that are worse. What always gets me is somebody with a 45-70 or similar comes by and starts touting all this about sectional density, that they are so big, they don't need to expand. There was even a guy on here once that refused to say shotgun like it was some bad word. We were discussing the usual hot topics, defensive shooting of large things, probably brown bear or similar. He kept calling them "birdguns", and how weak they are compared to a 45-70.

I'll admit there are rifled slugs made for deer hunting that don't penetrate that fantastically. Once you see what a solid slug like a 1 1/8 oz Brenneke can do, your jaw will drop. A 45 caliber solid will kill, but a 12 gauge slug blows a hole at least 3 times the size of what a 45 does.

As far as impressiveness on targets, yes. These will turn water jugs to vapor like the highest velocity rifles. They will flip a steel plate around like no other round I know of.

[jordanka16]

Almost like Henry knew some crazy fool like me would be attempting what I'm about to, the stock was already nicely hollowed out. After filling it with shot it weighs just over 9lbs, the scope I plan to install weighs a little under a pound with rings so total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.

286581

[megasupermagnum]

Almost like Henry knew some crazy fool like me would be attempting what I'm about to, the stock was already nicely hollowed out. After filling it with shot it weighs just over 9lbs, the scope I plan to install weighs a little under a pound with rings so total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.

286581

If this is your first single shot Henry, you will like it. What is the trigger pull, if you have a gauge? Guess if you don't. The triggers were flat out garbage when they first came out, but the recall really got their game together. I personally think Henry knocked it out of the park with these, but are sitting firm without fully taking advantage with what they have. The hinge pin alone is worth the money for these, it's the best designed break action hinge I've ever seen. If we could just get Henry, or an aftermarket to sell barrels for these, I'd buy 10 barrels right away for sure. Mine is a 308, and it shoots every bit as good as any TC Encore I ever shot.

[jordanka16]

If this is your first single shot Henry, you will like it. What is the trigger pull, if you have a gauge? Guess if you don't. The triggers were flat out garbage when they first came out, but the recall really got their game together. I personally think Henry knocked it out of the park with these, but are sitting firm without fully taking advantage with what they have. The hinge pin alone is worth the money for these, it's the best designed break action hinge I've ever seen. If we could just get Henry, or an aftermarket to sell barrels for these, I'd buy 10 barrels right away for sure. Mine is a 308, and it shoots every bit as good as any TC Encore I ever shot.

Probably about 3-4lbs, no takeup at all with a clean break and just a little overtravel, very clean and good trigger overall.

It is my first, and honestly I'm surprised at the amount of gun you get for the money, the gun is very nicely made and has beautiful furniture, I can see more of them in my future for sure.

[Cap'n Morgan]

total weight will be around 10 lbs unless I can add some weight to the forend.


My hunting buddy had a H&R single shot he used as a punt gun on his sneak boat.
We chisled out parts of the forend and filled it with molten lead. It solidified quickly and worked great.
I used a Winchester mod 37 industrial gun with a heavy barrel in a swivel mount on the foredeck.

Over here, shotguns (and semiauto rifles) are two shot only, but the law says nothing about the number of guns you can have in a boat. :?

[W.R.Buchanan]

It won't break his shoulder, it just won't be pleasant. I've never been able to get my hands on those Breneke gold crush's. Those are by far the most powerful factory slug you can buy for a 12 gauge. If you just want to get a taste of recoil, one slug you can find in a lot of stores is the Federal 3" 1 1/4oz powershok slug at 1600 fps. Fire one of those in a 5 1/4 pound H&R single shot, and you see a flash before your eyes... and it isn't muzzle flash.

By my calculations, that Federal 1 1/4 oz slug in this Henry should be just over 52 ft/lb recoil. By comparison, a 1000 grain slug at 900 fps would be 55 ft/lb, pretty close. I'm sure you can get to 1000 fps safely with that slug, which would put you up to just over 65 ft/lb. That should be squarely in the 458 caliber elephant rifle territory.

And buy comparison a .30-06 with 150 gr bullets has about 15 ftlbs of recoil energy!

Mega: A .458 WM is 500 gr at 2150 fps. TKO is 70.

A 1 oz Slug at 1200 fps has a TKO of 54

A 1 oz Slug at 1600 fps is 72 or close to .458 WM. I have 2 15 round boxes of those missing only 2 rounds! (= Chiropractor)

A 1 1/4 Slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 91!

A Brenneke Magnum Crush 1 1/2 oz slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 109!

TKO refers to a projectiles ability to transfer its energy at Impact. Whereas a .458WM has more energy(Ft Lb) it is only being transferred over the frontal area of the slug which is .658 sq in. Whereas the .73 cal. slug is transferring thru a surface area of,,, 1.675 sq in or 2.54 times the area of the .458WM. Hence the Big Slug transfers its energy 2.5 times more efficiently to the target and the target has to soak up that energy all at once instead of having a 1/2" hole poked thru it with much of the residual energy left after pass thru being transferred to the dirt behind the target. This is why TKO is more of an accurate representation of Knockdown Power than shear Ft Lbs.

The 1000 gr slug traveling at 1000 fps would have a TKO of 104 which is slightly less than the Magnum Crush. In a 5.5 lb gun that would surely hurt alot.

I have some Brenneke Low Recoil Tactical Home Defense Slugs 1 oz at 1378 fps and they are way more than I care to shoot from my M500 house gun that weighs 8 lbs on the nose loaded. I could tolerate a few in a pumped up scenario, but wouldn't do it often. I have 5 boxes of them just in case.

It is important that our people here understand exactly what they are wielding as far as power. A 12 Ga. Shotgun Slug is no joke! And even the Lee Slugs in my Trap Loads are more powerful than many Magnum Rifles.

I often say,,, "Nothing Lives thru a Slug!"

Randy

[jordanka16]

And buy comparison a .30-06 with 150 gr bullets has about 15 ftlbs of recoil energy!

Mega: A .458 WM is 500 gr at 2150 fps. TKO is 70.

A 1 oz Slug at 1200 fps has a TKO of 54

A 1 oz Slug at 1600 fps is 72 or close to .458 WM. I have 2 15 round boxes of those missing only 2 rounds! (= Chiropractor)

A 1 1/4 Slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 91!

A Brenneke Magnum Crush 1 1/2 oz slug at 1600 fps has a TKO of 109!

TKO refers to a projectiles ability to transfer its energy at Impact. Whereas a .458WM has more energy(Ft Lb) it is only being transferred over the frontal area of the slug which is .658 sq in. Whereas the .73 cal. slug is transferring thru a surface area of,,, 1.675 sq in or 2.54 times the area of the .458WM. Hence the Big Slug transfers its energy 2.5 times more efficiently to the target and the target has to soak up that energy all at once instead of having a 1/2" hole poked thru it with much of the residual energy left after pass thru being transferred to the dirt behind the target. This is why TKO is more of an accurate representation of Knockdown Power than shear Ft Lbs.

The 1000 gr slug traveling at 1000 fps would have a TKO of 104 which is slightly less than the Magnum Crush. In a 5.5 lb gun that would surely hurt alot.

I have some Brenneke Low Recoil Tactical Home Defense Slugs 1 oz at 1378 fps and they are way more than I care to shoot from my M500 house gun that weighs 8 lbs on the nose loaded. I could tolerate a few in a pumped up scenario, but wouldn't do it often. I have 5 boxes of them just in case.

It is important that our people here understand exactly what they are wielding as far as power. A 12 Ga. Shotgun Slug is no joke! And even the Lee Slugs in my Trap Loads are more powerful than many Magnum Rifles.

I often say,,, "Nothing Lives thru a Slug!"

Randy

That's a really good example, just puts into perspective the kind of power a simple shotgun can provide, and just how versatile they can be. I know I have been guilty of not giving shotguns the attention they deserve.

Anyway, a friend found a 5lb jug of Blue Dot for me, so as soon as my BPI order and my roundball mold arrive I can begin the testing!

[megasupermagnum]

I'll be straight up. I think TKO is a bunch of bologna. It makes about as much sense as using a bullets energy (usually ft lb's), which I don't like either. Don't get me wrong, these 12 gauge slugs we are talking about are right up there with most big game rifles, but I would never say they are MORE effective than a 458 win mag or similar. I think the beauty of it is you can buy a 12 gauge anywhere on the planet, they don't cost that much money, and yet you can make ammo for them that is more powerful than any rifle you can just go and buy in a store (unless you have a great gun store).

[Hogtamer]

Shotgun slugs are awesome within 100 yds (excluding store bought sabots) but run out of gas quickly. I have killed lots of hogs with the Lyman 525 loaded to about 1500fps muzzle velocity. It is all the recoil I can reasonably stand too. Sighted at 100 yds they are about 4” high at 50, but they start dropping off the table after that. Not to say I could not kill at 125 but elevation gets tricky. Too launch a 900 gr or greater slug to maintain any trajectory that is manageable past 50 yds would take a charge so great as to be practically unshootable IMO. No doubt a bear load at 25 yds is workable but I bet you won’t shoot it twice. Now I’m all for people loading and shooting anything they want, he just needs to know a little something about what he’s about to do. Watch that scope! I think Randy’s chart for comparative purposes is spot on and I’m looking forward to following this.

[longbow]

jordanka16:

When I get home in a day or so I will post the Precision Rifle pressure tested load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug.

They used Blue Dot for that load.

I used it as the data for 0.735" ACWW RB's... except I wimped out at 40 grs. due to rather stout recoil in a light gun, the data goes to 44 grs.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

jordanka16:

When I get home in a day or so I will post the Precision Rifle pressure tested load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug.

They used Blue Dot for that load.

I used it as the data for 0.735" ACWW RB's... except I wimped out at 40 grs. due to rather stout recoil in a light gun, the data goes to 44 grs.

Longbow

That would be great, I plan to play with the round ball loads before I tackle the super heavy stuff, and with 5lbs of powder I'll be able to do plenty of testing.

As an aside, about how many loads can I expect to get out of shells? I ordered some Fiocchi 2 3/4 and 3" primed hulls and a roll crimper tool for my drill press.

[longbow]

I am home and found some time so here you go ~ the Precision Rifle load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug:

286746286747286748

I used this data in Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls for my 0.735" RB loads. I reached a max of 40 grs. of BD before recoil took its toll then settled on 38 grs. as being a suitable load. In a heavier gun I likely would have ventured over 40 grs. but I doubt I would be putting 44 grs. in a hull and pulling the trigger! 12,000+ PSI seems a wee bit much to me.

The ACWW RB's I was shooting would have run about 575 gr. or a little less so close to 10% less payload and less bore friction due to much smaller contact area. 38 grs. of BD under the 0.735" RB's was good enough for me.

I did load some 880 gr. slugs Greg sent me too. Can't recall the powder charge but BD. I used an equivalent weight birdshot load for those. I don't recall recoil being particularly bad... more of a big push than a sharp jab. A lot less weight than you are planning on launching but plenty for me.

Enjoy!

Longbow

[jordanka16]

I am home and found some time so here you go ~ the Precision Rifle load data for their 610 gr. Piledriver full bore slug:

286746286747286748

I used this data in Fiocchi 2 3/4 hulls for my 0.735" RB loads. I reached a max of 40 grs. of BD before recoil took its toll then settled on 38 grs. as being a suitable load. In a heavier gun I likely would have ventured over 40 grs. but I doubt I would be putting 44 grs. in a hull and pulling the trigger! 12,000+ PSI seems a wee bit much to me.

The ACWW RB's I was shooting would have run about 575 gr. or a little less so close to 10% less payload and less bore friction due to much smaller contact area. 38 grs. of BD under the 0.735" RB's was good enough for me.

I did load some 880 gr. slugs Greg sent me too. Can't recall the powder charge but BD. I used an equivalent weight birdshot load for those. I don't recall recoil being particularly bad... more of a big push than a sharp jab. A lot less weight than you are planning on launching but plenty for me.

Enjoy!

Longbow

That is excellent! I can't wait for my round ball mold to arrive so I can start trying this out. I also found someone to make me a sizer die so that should help with accuracy for the grease groove bullets. Thanks!

[longbow]

I got best results with the RB's using a plastic gas seal over the powder then hard card wads to bring the ball close to crimp height and a 1/8 nitro card wad under the ball... roll crimped.

I tried cushion leg wads with petals cut off and other stacked wad combinations using fiber wads. The hard card wad column gave me the best accuracy.

From smoothbore groups ran about 3" to 4" consistently at 50 yards. From rifled gun (borrowed) groups ran about 2".

From smoothbore groups stay fairly tight to about 70 yards but then start to open up pretty quickly. By 100 yards I get frequent fliers making groups about 12".

Blood Trail recently tested some 0.735" RB's I sent him in rifled gun. If you're interest do a search. His load data should be good for smoothbore too so that gives you some other powder options.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

I got best results with the RB's using a plastic gas seal over the powder then hard card wads to bring the ball close to crimp height and a 1/8 nitro card wad under the ball... roll crimped.

I tried cushion leg wads with petals cut off and other stacked wad combinations using fiber wads. The hard card wad column gave me the best accuracy.

From smoothbore groups ran about 3" to 4" consistently at 50 yards. From rifled gun (borrowed) groups ran about 2".

From smoothbore groups stay fairly tight to about 70 yards but then start to open up pretty quickly. By 100 yards I get frequent fliers making groups about 12".

Blood Trail recently tested some 0.735" RB's I sent him in rifled gun. If you're interest do a search. His load data should be good for smoothbore too so that gives you some other powder options.

Longbow

I've got some 2 3/4 and 3" fiocchi hulls coming, along with some bpgs gas seals, some cork wads and nitro cards. I also have a roll crimper coming.

I have bags and bags of wads, but they're just for target loads, so I went ahead and just ordered everything I thought I might need.

As an aside, about how many firings do you get from these hulls?

[jordanka16]

He has the mold listed in his catalog now, in case anyone else wants to punish themselves as well :Fire:

https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=73-1072

[jordanka16]

Got my first roundball loaded up, going to do a few to check velocity then play around with wads, I have these hard cards, some cork, and fiber wads to try.

287700287701

[megasupermagnum]

Those look nice. The only thing I do different is I try my best to get the sprue cut facing up. I doubt it makes a world of difference, but it is a variable I watch.

[jordanka16]

Those look nice. The only thing I do different is I try my best to get the sprue cut facing up. I doubt it makes a world of difference, but it is a variable I watch.

Thanks, I have only loaded the 1 as a test as that's all I had time for today, but I will load the others that way. I actually did it with the sprue cut down, but thinking about it up does make more sense.


The other thing I planned to try is a 3d printed sort of cup. It would in theory apply even pressure to the round ball as the gun is fired. I searched but didn't see anything else like this being tried. After I get a good powder charge figured out I'll load up a few and compare the accuracy vs. a conventional wad.

https://i.imgur.com/0Y4bRms.jpg

[jordanka16]

Finally got the chance to get out and shoot some roundballs today.

Got some good results, I had the best accuracy between 38-40 grains of bluedot, so I think that's where I'll focus my efforts. I went up to 44 grains but the accuracy suffered and cases were getting sticky.

Velocity was right around 1300 fps at 38 grains, although my Labradar did not like these for some reason. I don't know if the wad column or the projectile shape was to blame, but about every other one failed to register. Usually it's perfect.

Picture is a 5 shot group at 50 yards, 38 grains blue dot, x12x gas seal, nitro card, and then a big fiber wad in a fiocchi 2 3/4 hull.

https://i.imgur.com/o0yp6AF.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

It doesn't get much better than that.

[longbow]

Pretty impressive!

I do like the big 'ol round balls! They do well out of smoothbore and even better out of rifled gun.

I think your 3D printed cup is an excellent idea. If I had a 3D printer I would be doing the same. Cap'n Morgan posted a concept of a ball cup with integral tailwad so the ball and cup/tailwad remain together but that was for smoothbore... and injection moulded. I am still waiting for a friend to 3D print me some modified rocket fins per BigMrTong but with a cup (his were for Lee slugs) so a hybrid between Cap'n Morgan's idea and BigMrTong's idea.

For rifled gun of course you don't need the attached wad and it might even cause trouble in flight.

Your cup should support the ball well and prevent any misalignment or rolling as the ball engraves. It should even help in smoothbore. I have recovered balls that had skewed belts on them indicating that they were either off center or rolling as they met the bore. Your cup should solve that issue. I think I need a 3D printer!

Excellent work and excellent results!

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Thanks guys!

I was happy with the results as well, and of the good accuracy the gun is capable of.

One odd note, the muzzle velocity affected the point of impact as you would expect, but a higher MV actually lowered the point of impact. The 44 grain loads were grouping about 8 inches lower than the 34 grain loads I sighted the gun in with. I adjusted it for the hotter stuff so it would be about centered, I just found this interesting.

I was planning to try out other wads and stuff like that, but now I don't know if it would even help. I am going to take it to 100 yards or even further, possibly some different wad combo will give an improvement there, but at 50 at least I think it's perfect.

[longbow]

If that accuracy holds up to 100 yards I'd say you've got a winner of a load! Groups will likely be 3" or less at 100 yards.

If all else was the same with the heavier loads (position, hold, etc.) I think the heavier load resulted in less barrel time so not as much muzzle rise in recoil before the slug exited.

I'll be interested in your 100 yard results so will be watching for the next range report.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Very nice! That will kill most anything walking

[jordanka16]

I wouldn't expect the recoil to make such a huge difference, but I guess it's just the combo of lots of recoil plus a relatively slow projectile.


I exaggerated a little saying the difference in point of impact was 8", but it's still significant. Top is 36 grains and bottom is 44 grains, same point of aim.

https://i.imgur.com/9z1Tjz8.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

Speaking of recoil, are you still excited to try your 2 3/8 oz behemoth's?

P.S. LabRadar is well known for being picky with shotguns. They don't work with shot at all. I'd be happy you got as good results with slugs as you did. The wads are throwing off your readings, and there is no way around it. A normal skyscreen chronograph works better.

[jordanka16]

Speaking of recoil, are you still excited to try your 2 3/8 oz behemoth's?

P.S. LabRadar is well known for being picky with shotguns. They don't work with shot at all. I'd be happy you got as good results with slugs as you did. The wads are throwing off your readings, and there is no way around it. A normal skyscreen chronograph works better.

Oh yeah, still looking forward to it :)

They really aren't all that bad, I have some lever action .45-70 loads that are worse, but those guns are also several pounds lighter. I know if the gun didn't have the weight that I added it would be considerably worse.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Great results!

Faster loads will impact lower because the recoil is raising the muzzle before the slug has left the barrel. The longer the slug is in the barrel, the more the muzzle will rise.
I once had an old 6" Webley .455 revolver. Standing behind the shooter on a 25 meter range, you could tell the bore line was well below the actual point of impact.

[Blood Trail]

LabRadar don’t measure round projectiles very well. I spoke with an engineer from them and they said it had something to do with the Doppler signature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jordanka16]

Finally got my mold!

Cast a batch up and can't wait to get out and actually fire them, I'll likely have to test them and the roundballs on separate days since I don't think my shoulder could take that, it was pretty sore for a couple days after the last session anyway.

Casting them was sure different, I had to crank the heat way down compared to what I usually cast at, and I still had to cool the mold in between.

They ended up a little heavier than I planned, but that's alright. Comparison is with a .38 special cartridge.

https://i.imgur.com/CstFW2R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SqEmTIg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ELiejsB.jpg

[longbow]

Now that there is a hefty and good looking slug!

I am looking forward to your range report.

I don't recall if I posted Greg Sappington's comments about his 1043 gr. slug (to lazy to reread posts) but he said recoil wasn't bad at 1100 FPS using slow powder.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK,,, That will leave a mark!

Randy

[Metroxfi]

This might be the place to ask...

I've been trying to find some reasonable and reliable load data for a double .690 round ball load. I have a .690 RB mold and some BP x12x wads on order. I also have a couple of pounds of blue dot, about 6lbs of Longshot, and a couple pounds of herco along with a smattering of different types of 209 primers. I also have a BP roll crimp tool that I can use for these.

I'm not looking for a super magnum load, just something moderate. They'll only be shot out of smooth bores. Where would be a good place to start?

[megasupermagnum]

I don't think too many have tried double .690" balls. That is about a 2 ounce payload. Bluedot works great for that, I wouldn't mess with Longshot or Herco on such a heavy load.

[longbow]

I have downloaded but not used Deer Assassin's recipe for double 0.690" ball load. IIRC he posted it on Shotgun World.

I can PM it to you if you want it.

I might have another recipe too. I'll take a look.

I have loaded slugs of 800+ gr. slugs using birdshot data.

I opted for two ball load using 0.600" RB's. Got to get back to that too!

You could probably use Greg Sappingtons 1043 gr. slug data for the 2 ball load too though your payload might be "light". I believe he posted that data here and also on Shotgun World. I have that as well. Greg's recipe was pressure tested.

If you want the info let me know.

Longbow

[Petander]

Oh my.

Following. Is that mold from Accurate? Wonderful craziness.

[longbow]

If you want heavy slug load data I collected a bunch and had actually forgotten I had posted it here not long ago:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?419267-Heavy-Slug-Load-Help

post #6.

The heaviest slug data I have seen is Greg Sappington's pressure tested load data for his 1043 gr. slug and then the Dixie Tri-Ball data which could be used for a slug.

I have not ventured into payloads that large as yet.

As always, check and cross reference before using any of that data. Greg's data is listed as pressure tested as is the Dixie Tri-ball data. Ed Hubel also had his recipes pressure tested. The rest...?

Longbow

[ASSASSIN]

From a smooth bore barrel, a double .690 round ball load is one of the best "slug" loads ever created, and out to 100 yards, it is devastating on deer, bear and hogs, and has accounted for more than a couple of bull moose! It will also stop a grizzly from a full on charge!

[longbow]

I have no doubt! I am guessing that unless you are a very heavy set guy that there are skid marks about 1 1/2 feet long in front of your boots every time you pull the trigger!! That's gotta pack a punch on both ends!

I may try that one day... maybe!

I will be interested to see where this goes and whether we develop more load data from the thread. So far most of my heavy slug/multi ball load data uses Blue Dot but surely there are other suitable powders waiting for an opportunity.

Longbow

[ASSASSIN]

Longbow,

recoil is a little on the stout side, but very manageable. Ten to fifteen rounds a shooting session is not a problem.

Blue Dot powder is the only powder I have used in the double .690 round ball loads.

Anyone interested in the load I shoot, send me a pm.

I will say that my loads are in the 3" Activ hulls, and that I have not shot these loads in any other 3" hull.

[Petander]

Anyone interested in the load I shoot, send me a pm.





Assassin, Why PM? Kind of defeats the purpose.

Everybody knows this is Internet and we are on our own. Go ahead,post your stuff please.

[longbow]

No need... it is in the link I posted above along with a bunch of other heavy slug and Tri-Ball loads.

That is unless there are any changes or improvements.

Longbow

[jordanka16]

Oh my.

Following. Is that mold from Accurate? Wonderful craziness.
It is indeed, it's a design of my own based on a similar one from a forum post years ago. Unfortunately I havent had the chance to fire any yet, it took a while to have a sizing die made and life does get in the way. I have some loaded up though and plan to get out and test them in the new year.