If some Meplat is good.. is more better?

[TexasAg11]

I have been doing some reading on WFN type bullets (.452) for hunting applications and their ability to combine excellent penetration with larger-than-caliber wound channels. My hunting (deer/pigs) is mainly at very close range so the long range aerodynamics are not a huge concern.

Question #1.... what is the largest meplat (>80%) hardcast bullet for .452 that is commercially available in a 255-280 grain loading?

Question #2.... what about full wadcutters for hunting or even turning a bullet around so that the flat base is pointed forward? This would theoretically give you near 100% meplat.

I’m currently loading 265gr WFNGC Cast Performance over 15gr of 2400.

Sorry if these questions are dumb, I’m still learning. Thanks!

👍🏻

[Rcmaveric]

I would have to find it the references, been a few years and was a random article. There is a trade off to aerodynamic. More meplate, more better killing but less range of usability. That nose is getting more wind friction. There is a happy medium and thats where the WFN comes in. Its the middle ground of best meplate and still retaining usable ballistics at respectable hunting distances.

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[TexasAg11]

Yup that is what I was guessing. For a “woods protection” or short range hunting applications I wonder if the aerodynamics are important or not. At 50 yards and more I am betting the drag would become a real factor, but is it a factor at 20-25 yards?

[DougGuy]

The largest meplat would be one of three LBT designs, I get them from Montana Bullet Works, you can go to their site and look these up LBT 250gr WFN-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-GC, LBT 250gr OWC

I am using these three boolits, one plain base one gas checked and the OWC is nearly an oilcan only with slightly curving sides, it is the biggest meplat besides a straight sided wadcutter. I use them in 45 Schofield brass, loaded with H110 to just under 1200fps which maintains the 23,000psi pressure ceiling of the medium framed Vaquero or Flattop Blackhawk.

286023

[TexasAg11]

DougGuy,

Thanks for the info. Do I need to be concerned about the lack of gas check at the speeds and pressures I am loading? Also, for hunting would the softer BH of the OWC of 15 be a positive or negative for pigs and deer compared to the harder gas checked bullets they offer?

[charlie b]

Decades ago when I was loading for the .45Colt I read an article about short range dangerous game loads. One was a guide in Africa who used a Ruger .45Colt. He loaded a straight cylinder of lead, 350gn if I remember correctly. He claimed it worked well against lions at close range (less than 25yd). He was not concerned with lube or gas checks as he rarely shot more than one at a time.

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[DougGuy]

DougGuy,

Thanks for the info. Do I need to be concerned about the lack of gas check at the speeds and pressures I am loading? Also, for hunting would the softer BH of the OWC of 15 be a positive or negative for pigs and deer compared to the harder gas checked bullets they offer?

The middle boolit in the photo is a GC design. I wouldn't worry about the hardness of the OWC just use it as is and if you DO happen to recover a boolit, then you can determine if it was a good one to use but I suspect you will have many more two holed animals than you will have boolits to show for it.

[farmbif]

here is an interesting article on cast hunting bullets.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellPerfectBullet.htm

[TexasAg11]

Really appreciate the feedback folks!

[44MAG#1]

There was, several years back, a big discussion on meplat diameters and their effectiveness on Graybeard outdoors between Tim Sundles and Randy Garrett. Sundles stance was after a "medium" diameter meplat size that almost nothing is actually gained in killing power by going to the larger meplats. Garrett maintained that meplats quite abit larger than what Sundles said was good and gave a decent improvement in killing power but even he said that too much meplat diameter was a detriment.
As in most things like this, and the stopping power of handguns discussions, nothing was ever settled. You and I and most others will believe what we want to believe regardless of who believes what or writes regardless of eloquent writing or verbalizations.
I printed out the whole thing and there were many pages of it. It is here somewhere but don't have a clue where it is.
Does anyone else remember it? I do simply because nothing was ever settled on too small, too large, or to in the middle meplats whether they were good or bad or inbetween on killing power.
A lengthy discussion though as most of these discussions are.

[zarrinvz24]

My relatively limited experience indicates that Elmer Keith was right on at 70% of caliber diameter. As mentioned by previous posters it’s a trade off, and Mr. Keith felt that 70% was the best compromise between ballistics and thumping power.

[DougGuy]

And, at the end of the day, we hopefully have a two holed and bled out animal, and no boolit to be recovered regardless of meplat unless it dug into a tree on the other side of the animal and you brought a chain saw with you.

[TexasAg11]

Yup! I guess half the fun is the journey of finding out for myself. I should have a lot of opportunities over the next few years to really dive into revolver hunting. Working on building up a respectable arsenal and figuring out the right loads for the job.286082

[Outpost75]

At normal .45 Colt velocities and pressures the meplat at 70% of bullet diameter is ideal and will remain accurate from a revolver to 100 yards or more. The #454424 is hard to beat in a common off-the-shelf design, but the Accurate 45-264H ogival wide flatnose is my go-to bullet in the Colt New Service and wonderful with 7 grains of Bullseye.

286127

[Piedmont]

My relatively limited experience indicates that Elmer Keith was right on at 70% of caliber diameter. As mentioned by previous posters it’s a trade off, and Mr. Keith felt that 70% was the best compromise between ballistics and thumping power.

Where did Elmer say that? His Keith bullets varried in meplat percentage depending upon which caliber they were in. These were the Ideal/Lyman designs that he endorsed.

[bisleyfan41]

At 50 yards and more I am betting the drag would become a real factor, but is it a factor at 20-25 yards?

Nope. The valid long range performance qualities of the SWC/WFN that folks refer to above are irrelevant at 20-25 yards. A full wadcutter will work just fine, assuming proper composition, hardness, placement, etc. But that doesn't necessarily make it any better than a SWC or WFN for the job.

[zarrinvz24]

He played with it a bit but he discussed it in the 1963 revision of sixguns. I’ll dig my copy out tomorrow and look for it, I don’t want to misquote.


Where did Elmer say that? His Keith bullets varried in meplat percentage depending upon which caliber they were in. These were the Ideal/Lyman designs that he endorsed.

[TexasAg11]

Any feedback from hunters who have first hand experience with these WIDE bullets on thin skinned game? Especially compared to a standard XTP/GDHP type projectiles?

[Outpost75]

Any feedback from hunters who have first hand experience with these WIDE bullets on thin skinned game? Especially compared to a standard XTP/GDHP type projectiles?

MUCH prefer them on feral hogs, wild beef, black bear to the HPs of any construction. Complete through and through penetration from any angle.

[stubshaft]

I have used Verals 45 300gr LFN in my 454 Casull for over 30 years, and it has accounted for over 150 hogs, feral sheep and goats. I have never been able to recover a bullet as they ALL went coast to coast, AND have never needed more than one shot. I have a Lipsey 44 Special which I shoot a 44 WFN out of and it has only been used on 41 hogs, again, no bullet recovery or second shot needed.

[DougGuy]

Any feedback from hunters who have first hand experience with these WIDE bullets on thin skinned game? Especially compared to a standard XTP/GDHP type projectiles?

XTP and GD both are made with soft lead cores swaged into a gilding metal jacket. The lead in the core doesn't stay together worth a dang once the jacket is shed, it is frangible and pieces of it break off the core rapidly once it loses the jacket.

The wide meplat of the 45 caliber projectiles is already as large as a fully expanded and mushroomed 30 caliber jacketed bullet and we all know how lethal that is, so now you have the lethality of the expanded 30 caliber, with the momentum of a much larger and much heavier boolit, and an alloy that is tough but still malleable enough to stay together (where it retains much of it's original weight) so a complete pass through is pretty much the norm.

I got away from the XTP when I started having to pick through a wound channel for tiny pieces of bullet material, definitely didn't want to eat right up to the hole with a mess like that.

Haven't taken game with the OWC yet, but it's first up as my go to handgun load for the deer woods. No HP needed, nor recommended.

[oldcanadice]

I used to read everything by Elmer that I could get my hands on and I seem to remember that Keith showed or believed that wadcutters lose accuracy at longer ranges. I think they became unstable out of pistols after 50 yards or so (to which they were very accurate and cut clean holes in paper targets). Anyone else remember this? As an aside; I don't think the standard twist-tables would help to clarify things here because the G1 shape is assumed to be kind of pointed. Anyone else remember about this?

[1hole]

Question #2.... what about full wadcutters for hunting or even turning a bullet around so that the flat base is pointed forward? This would theoretically give you near 100% meplat.

Good idea! SWC bullets loaded backwards would make them boat tail wadcutters for the best of all worlds! ;)

(I really don't have a clue how well that would work but it does sound like something someone else - not me! - should experiment with.)

[Char-Gar]

First you have to find them. Then you have to shoot them in a vital place. Only then do you need to be concerned about the size of the meplat. Any of the above bullets will do just fine.

[bluejay75]

You don’t NEED the largest meplat. Most WFN or WLN has enough that even if it doesn’t expand will provide a wide would channel and complete pass through with most any 275-300 grain bullet in 45 caliber down to 900 or so FPS.

I’m my experience most WFN bullets want to expand and just adds to the killing effect. I have never captured one in game. Only one I have in all my years of hunting with them was a up close finishing shot after a neck shot.

[ddixie884]

There was an article in a gun magazine 40 or 45 years ago about loading bullets backwards to get a wad cutter effect. I believe it concluded that they gave performance on the order of real wad cutters........

[oldcanadice]

Back before good expanding bullets were available, it was a thing (as a self-defense load) to load hollow base lead wadcutters backwards to have the giant 'cup point' forward. I made lots of them and they would impressively explode a gallon jug full of water at 20 feet -- you'd get wet from the huge spray. Unfortunately (or not), they were impossibly inaccurate at 40 feet and had no penetration in anything solid -- the bullets just blew up like a varmint bullet. You'd go to jail almost anywhere today if you ever shot someone with one. BTW: If you try this now for fun, be sure to put a gas-check on the bullet in the case. We messed up a ruger hogleg 357 barrel before we learned that.

We never messed with solid wadcutters loaded backwards because they were essentially the same one way of the other.

[TexasAg11]

Ddixie & Oldcanadice, these are the types of war stories I love about this forum! Awesome insights and really interesting feedback. Much appreciated folks!