NEWBY to Cast loading, with questions

[iraqvet13f67]

Greetings to everyone, hope all are well!
Newby to cast loading, but have 10 years loading jacketed bullets.
So, after several months of reading and research, I finally jumped into the cast loading / shooting, with pretty good results, even though I was a bit hesitant with one of my loads..

I am loading for a H&R Handi Rifle (SB2 receiver), and I chose Missouri Bullet Co’s #1 Buffalo bullet in .459, and 2 powders… both IMR: 3031 and 4198, for TRAPDOOR loads.

According to my Lyman cast bullet book, both are good to go, as far as their listed and highlighted load(s). Which, I got pretty good results with.. I checked the Hodgdon online data, but they showed a lot hotter loads in the Trapdoor category, and I wanted to stay 1300 to 1450 fps.

Only possible issue I am having is, my IMR3031 load, at 37.5 grains, seems a bit light, but giving best grouping. It also felt a bit harder on the recoil side when fired… primers don’t show any sign of pressure issues, no cratering, but a bit flattened, but still look safe..

Wondering if anyone has had any issues shooting a light load of imr3031, with a 405grain cast bullet…
I may just be hesitant about shooting a light load, compared to my jacketed bullet loads, as I’m used to filling a case with powder..

As you can see in the attached pics, the blue primers have been scuffed pretty good, no visible paint marker color, compared to the hotter, 39 grain load- the red colored primers…

Again, am I just being to cautious and hesitant about this lighter load?

Thank folks for the help and input!!!

PS….
Plan to load more, and shoot more in development stage, tweaking load.. them chrono load..
That’s a 70 yard range / target..my max back yard distance.. I

NOTE… I worked up loads from 37 to 39 grains of IMR3031, in 1/2grain increments…

286000286001

[Tar Heel]

I will comment with a few warnings. Flattened primers are NOT how to gauge chamber pressure. You can blow up a gun well before you see evidence of "flattened primers." The best second level indicator of pressure is measured velocity - which should track with the published data. If you are getting significantly higher velocity with a prescribed amount of powder, something is WRONG and your pressure is way above where it should be.

Felt recoil is a dangerous way to evaluate pressure. I can tell you a Trail Boss load in my 45-70 with a 480gr bullet loaded for a Ruger #1 that you can shoot easily and convince yourself it is a mouse-fart load. In fact, that load will probably blow a trapdoor to smithereens. It doesn't kick very hard in the Sharps or a Ruger #1, primers are unremarkable, and report is mild too.

Propellant type to case volume is carefully evaluated by manufacturers. I would be very careful reducing loads below those listed in the manuals, especially with large volume cases.

I would suggest downloading, reading, and digesting From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm) and coming at the loading of cast bullets from the alloy end. Your alloy and expected velocity will then steer your propellant choice. Either way, have fun with your new found use of lead bullets!

[Soundguy]

I will comment with a few warnings. Flattened primers are NOT how to gauge chamber pressure. You can blow up a gun well before you see evidence of "flattened primers." The best second level indicator of pressure is measured velocity - which should track with the published data. If you are getting significantly higher velocity with a prescribed amount of powder, something is WRONG and your pressure is way above where it should be.

Felt recoil is a dangerous way to evaluate pressure. I can tell you a Trail Boss load in my 45-70 with a 480gr bullet that you can shoot easily and convince yourself it is a mouse-fart load. In fact, that load will probably blow a trapdoor to smithereens. It doesn't kick very hard in the Sharps, primers are unremarkable, and report is mild too.

Propellant type to case volume is carefully evaluated by manufacturers. I would be very careful reducing loads below those listed in the manuals, especially with large volume cases.

I would suggest downloading, reading, and digesting From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm) and coming at the loading of cast bullets from the alloy end. Your alloy and expected velocity will then steer your propellant choice. Either way, have fun with your new found use of lead bullets!

I shoot pounds and pounds of trailboss each year..especially in 45-70. An 8-10 gr trail boss load should yield about 700-800 fps for a cast 480gr projectile.
That is a mouse fart load , it's also well inside listed data for traps....

If you are blowing up a trap with trail boss you made a mistake and compressed a load.

[Soundguy]

That same 480 over 39.5-42 grs imr 3031 yields double the velocity at 1400-1500 fps. Not to mention cup in 20500-22600 range vs trailboss cup in 17000-20000 range.
It's hard to blow up anything with an uncompressed trail boss load.

[iraqvet13f67]

Unfortunately I haven’t seen trail boss at my local GS in over a year.. I was gunna try it… but.. none available…

[iraqvet13f67]

I worked loads from 37 to 39 in .5 increments… 37 and 37.5 grains…
37 and 37.5 felt recoil seemed harder than the remaining loads…
Hence why I am wondering if these being light loads caused the harder felt recoil.. being under pressured loads…
Maybe it’s just me.. 37.5 and 39 grains shot the best at 75 yards.. my max backyard range…
I’m gunna load some more at 37.5 and 39.. over my chrony and see what I get.. just don’t want my gun to blow up in my face..
understand Lyman cast book used a universal receiver and things will always be different versus using an actual rifle…
Thanks for the reply

[iraqvet13f67]

Sound guy, do you use any filler?

I just noticed that I have powder cornels in the bottom of my ammo box… I always turn my brass hulls base / primer up after shooting.. I didn’t notice till now there are unburnt powder in the box..
so now I’m figuring that the loads with imr3031 are not get full ignition… I may try a filler to keep the powder column inline maybe that will do the trick

[Soundguy]

I have only used fillers with black powder.. never with smokless. Are you in cold temps? maybe a different primer....

[charlie b]

Filler probably won't help with that. If the flakes are unburned powder then it might be a bullet weight/crimp problem. 3031 is not that fast a powder and may need just a bit more pressure to burn well. A crimp or heavier bullet might help that.

Filler does keep the powder back against the primer and will sometimes make the ignition process more consistent. Do not use too much. Check out the sticky on fillers in the other cast bullet section.

[Tar Heel]

I shoot pounds and pounds of trailboss each year..especially in 45-70. An 8-10 gr trail boss load should yield about 700-800 fps for a cast 480gr projectile.
That is a mouse fart load , it's also well inside listed data for traps....

If you are blowing up a trap with trail boss you made a mistake and compressed a load.

Nobody has blown up anything that I am aware of. The OP is not using Trail Boss, he is using some other propellants. Hodgdon lists 10gr of TB as a max load with a 480gr bullet. That is not the load I was referring to that would harm a Trapdoor. I also shoot a lot of TB propellant and some of my 45-70 loads exceed the 10gr max published load. I shoot those loads in a Ruger #1 and developed the loads with some ballistic software. Those are the loads I was referring to. They have no flattened primers, milder recoil, etc. Their chamber pressure however is more than excessive for a Trapdoor and would probably blow a Trapdoor.

My point to the OP was that flattened primers are NOT a very good indicator of pressure. Felt recoil is NOT a very good indicator of pressure. Chronographed velocity compared to published load/velocity date is about the best second level indicator of pressure one can have without using a piezoelectric system for measuring chamber pressure. Load reduction below published minimum loads can be very harmful - even with Trail Boss if that matters.

[Soundguy]

That's why load data exists...and why 45-70 usually is listed in 3 levels..traps, levers, #1's...and you don't run higher loads in traps. Also why many commercial manufacturers that sell 45-70 mark the box.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have had problems with unburned powder in .45/70 rounds with a powder with a burn rate similar to 3031. I tried crimping harder, fillers and magnum primers. I finally just went to a faster powder. However, I don’t suggest trying loads that there is no published data for, until you get a good handle of what’s going on with your gun and published loads.

[iraqvet13f67]

So, I appreciate the input and help / suggestions.

Sunday, I settled on 37.2g imr3031, with 0.8 grain poly fill, seat bullet.. 5 with no crimp, 5 with light crimp, 5 with med-heavy crimp (like I do for my Marlin 1895…)

Light crimp left LESS powder in barrel.. not sure if accuracy improved or if it was my ability to have a good day shooting..

Today…Loaded 7 rounds for chrony test..

Cold bore shot was 1444fps, with 7 shot average of 1452fps.

Honestly, I do believe the poly fill helped keep the powder inline with powder column..

Now just gotta load about 25 rounds.. shoot and tweek scope zero…

Thanks again for the help

I also loaded imr4198 with some filler, accuracy did get better, but MV shot up over 1600fps… not what I was looking for..

[richhodg66]

I found 5744 to work great in .45-70 when I used it for deer hunting.

Most of my .45-70 shooting now is plinking with a target rolling block, nice rifle, at 100 yards. Unique or Herco, 12 grains, works very well for this with bullets in the 350 to 400 grain range for me.

[WVHunter460]

I completely and totally concur with this advise , certian powder can present a sharp quick detonation and result in a more felt recoil. But felt recoil is never a way to gage the a loads safety or velocity.

[No_1]

So, I appreciate the input and help / suggestions.

Sunday, I settled on 37.2g imr3031, with 0.8 grain poly fill, seat bullet.. 5 with no crimp, 5 with light crimp, 5 with med-heavy crimp (like I do for my Marlin 1895…)

Light crimp left LESS powder in barrel.. not sure if accuracy improved or if it was my ability to have a good day shooting..

Today…Loaded 7 rounds for chrony test..

Cold bore shot was 1444fps, with 7 shot average of 1452fps.

Honestly, I do believe the poly fill helped keep the powder inline with powder column..

Now just gotta load about 25 rounds.. shoot and tweek scope zero…

Thanks again for the help

I also loaded imr4198 with some filler, accuracy did get better, but MV shot up over 1600fps… not what I was looking for..


I found 5744 to work great in .45-70 when I used it for deer hunting.

Most of my .45-70 shooting now is plinking with a target rolling block, nice rifle, at 100 yards. Unique or Herco, 12 grains, works very well for this with bullets in the 350 to 400 grain range for me.

Welcome Aboard IraqVet13f67,

I think you are on the right track. Find a load which shoots good enough for you. If recoil becomes an issue unscrew the butt pad, insert a mercury tube in the stock bolt hole then screw the butt pad back on.

In 45/70 I have a Marlin/Marlin guide gun with ported barrel, a Siamese Mauser, a Ruger #1, and a Ruger #3. I dabbled with 3031, 4198, as well as Unique using both jacketed and lead boolits. In my search for an all around load that shoots well I settled on two powders:3031 and Unique.

Rob