Match ammo...from casting?

[emt1581]

I'm contemplating buying a better quality barrel than came with my one PSA kit. This is because I've thrown a bunch of different parts at the build, so by the time I'm done, the only thing I'll most likely be using from the original kit is the upper and the BCG. However, over on ARF I was told, unless I plan on using/reloading match grade ammo, it's not worth the extra coin.

My question is, does anyone produce match grade ammo from casting in .223? I use a Lee mold but recently added Accurate (.50BMG) and MP (9mm HP) to my collection, so I'm not married to Lee if match grade requires a specific make/model of mold.

....or is casting just not going to produce anything close to match ammo?

Thanks!!

[Hanzy4200]

You're never going to get match accuracy from a cast pill in .223. If there was ever a pair that did not play well together, it's PB and .223. Also, match grade .223 jacketed bullets are not overly expensive.

[emt1581]

You're never going to get match accuracy from a cast pill in .223. If there was ever a pair that did not play well together, it's PB and .223. Also, match grade .223 jacketed bullets are not overly expensive.

Good to know on both fronts.

What are some good yet economical match grade bullets to look at? Also, are they useful for anything other than punching paper (i.e. defense, hunting, etc.)?

I have little experience in this particular area.

Thanks!

[downzero]

What kind of "match" are we talking about here? I don't shoot cast bullets in my .223s, but I have shot a lot of matches in my time, and I can't really think of any kind of match where that combination would be useful.

[dverna]

Important that you define your accuracy goals. "Match grade" can mean different things to different people.

I have a 5.56 mold from a group buy that I hope NEVER to use. It is for SHTF. I doubt 1% of people casting .224 bullets can match the accuracy of the typical varmint bullet that costs less than $15/100. By that I mean consistent 1 MOA at 200 yards. (2" groups at 200 yards). And to get there, they need a good alloy, gas checks, good lube and to weigh and visually inspect every cast bullet.

And many commercial bullets will do better than 1 MOA...so define your accuracy needs.

Also, with the AR you need enough umph to cycle the action. That does not play well with cast. Some folks have posted "wallet" groups with cast .224 bullets so when you see them look at the load data. Most are running under 2000 fps and that will not work in your AR.

You can buy Hornady 55 gr bulk SP bullets for less than $8.50/100. $500 for 6,000 bullets is a lot of cheap shooting. At current prices, the primers will cost your more!!!

https://www.armorally.com/shop/hornady-22-caliber-55gr-spire-point/

IMO you are wasting your time and precious powder and primers dinking around with cast in an AR.

[NuJudge]

I tried loading cast bullets in a .223 AR15A2 in the early 1970s, with not-so-good reliability 55gr gas checked bullets in a 1:12" twist barrel. You might be able to do better if you dedicated an upper for just cast bullet use. Your bullets will probably have to be heavier than usual for .22 caliber, which will require a really fast twist.

[Dusty Bannister]

There is something that just does not seem right about precision casting and quality control of reloading and then slamming the cartridge through the feeding cycle of a semi-auto rifle. Blasting ammo is another thing, but pretty labor intensive for the price of production jacketed bullets.

That said, there are some that just feel the need to see how well they can do and I applaud those for their persistence.

[Traffer]

There is a community that posts here about swaging jacketed 223 bullets using empty 22lr casings for jackets. You can buy the dies core molds etc., or you can make them yourself if you have a lathe. Here is one link on how it's done.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?24952-22-rimfire-bullets-start-to-finish

[waksupi]

Smaller calibers can be finicky. You can get your best accuracy weighing your bullets. Be ruthless in culling any imperfections.

[imashooter2]

There is something that just does not seem right about precision casting and quality control of reloading and then slamming the cartridge through the feeding cycle of a semi-auto rifle. Blasting ammo is another thing, but pretty labor intensive for the price of production jacketed bullets.

That said, there are some that just feel the need to see how well they can do and I applaud those for their persistence.

Indeed! Cast in a .223 AR is just a pile of problems I’m not willing to invest the time to solve. God bless those that are so inclined!

[sureYnot]

62gn projectile & 1:7 twist was the solution for me.
Lots of people gave up and like to go around preaching that accurate cast is impossible with an AR.
Give up or don't. But it isn't impossible.

[dverna]

62gn projectile & 1:7 twist was the solution for me.
Lots of people gave up and like to go around preaching that accurate cast is impossible with an AR.
Give up or don't. But it isn't impossible.

Define accurate.....

[John Boy]

…. And add the longest distance before accuracy dies off

[sureYnot]

If you need better than one moa at 100yds, probably stick to jacketed.
At least, that's the best I can do.

[243winxb]

Cast bullets may contain air bubbles. The whole batch needs checked/sorted by weight. Visible flaws are discarded also.

[Bigslug]

If you tell me "match ammo for .223 in an AR-15", I'm thinking the NRA Highpower game which is fired at 200, 300, and 600 yards. Even if you can get the mechanical consistency of your cast loads shooting into the sub-1 MOA territory necessary to be competitive, if you show up to play that game with cast, the cool kids with their Bergers and Sierra Match Kings will beat you up and take your lunch money. They have both velocity and aerodynamics working for them, and your blunt, slow hand-pours will be literally hanging in the wind for a long time getting blown off course.

The trick to economy in the Highpower game is to find a cheap but acceptably accurate bullet for the standing 200Y, sitting 200Y rapid, and prone 300Y rapid where there's often enough human error in the mix to render super-sexy ammo pointless. The 600-yard prone slowfire event is where you spend the money on the good bullets.

[wv109323]

As for 9mm, I have achieved 1 3/4" groups at 20 yards with a near stock CZ 75B. That required 2 molds and reaming the chamber so that I could use a bullet that fit the bore.
The bore was .3565 so no 9mm bullet mold at .356 would work. I bought the Lee 120g. TC and the bullets tumbled. I then bought the Lee .358 125g. RN FP (revolver mold) and sized to 3580. As stock this barrel and bullet did not work together. The larger bullet in the stock chamber shaved lead ansd soon you would get a round that would not go into full battery. I had the chamber reamed to get some leade.
So good results are possible, but each pistol is its own.
At Camp Perry, probably 80% of the shooters will use cast boolits at 50 yards. Accuracy around 1 1/2" @ 50 yards is quite common. That is with a tuned 1911 in .45acp.

[dverna]

As for 9mm, I have achieved 1 3/4" groups at 20 yards with a near stock CZ 75B. That required 2 molds and reaming the chamber so that I could use a bullet that fit the bore.
The bore was .3565 so no 9mm bullet mold at .356 would work. I bought the Lee 120g. TC and the bullets tumbled. I then bought the Lee .358 125g. RN FP (revolver mold) and sized to 3580. As stock this barrel and bullet did not work together. The larger bullet in the stock chamber shaved lead ansd soon you would get a round that would not go into full battery. I had the chamber reamed to get some leade.
So good results are possible, but each pistol is its own.
At Camp Perry, probably 80% of the shooters will use cast boolits at 50 yards. Accuracy around 1 1/2" @ 50 yards is quite common. That is with a tuned 1911 in .45acp.

Large bullets at 700-800 FPS are not good examples of what is needed in a 5.56 AR.

[dbosman]

Some folks in the Cast Bullet Association have done work with 72 grain bullets, but I believe they stop at 200 yards. John Alexander wrote an article on cast .223 with a title that was something like "why not cast for 223". That convinced me to try tiny bullets. The biggest obstacle is the twist rate of most .223 rifles. With 55gr spire point or soft point selling at $70 a thousand, (not today, of course) a lot of folks have never had a reason to try tiny cast bullets.

[barkerwc4362]

As a former NRA High Power shooter, define "match ammo"? What twist rate is your barrel? What chamber is the barrel? What length is the barrel. I campaigned a Colt AR-15A2 HBAR for a bunch of years. It had a 20 inch, 1-7 twist barrel with a 5.56 NATO chamber. It would hold sub inch for 10+ shots when I did my part. I started shooting 52 gr Sierra HPBT match bullets before transitioning to 69 gr Sierra HPBT match bullets. Nosler 69 gr HPBT Custom Competition are just as good. I long loaded 80 gr Sierra HPBT match bullets for slow fire. Before I quit I bought a Rock River Arms (RRA) National Match to replace the Colt. The RRA is even more accurate with the 69 grs. It's barrel is a 20 inch, Wilson 1-8 twist with a Wylde chanber. I currently have a RRA A3 flat top National Match with a new 20 inch X-caliber, 1-8 twist barrel with a Wylde chamber. This combo shoots 10, 77 gr Nosler Custom Competitions into 5/8 - 3/4 inch when I do my part. 69 grains are good out to 300 - 400 yards. But you usually need at at least a 1-9 twist to stabilize. 77 grains are good to at least 600 yards, but you need at least a 1-8 twist for stability. This is based upon a 20 inch barrel. There are a lot of good bullets out there that will shoot very small groups. How they perform at longer ranges is the question.
Bill

[dverna]

Some folks in the Cast Bullet Association have done work with 72 grain bullets, but I believe they stop at 200 yards. John Alexander wrote an article on cast .223 with a title that was something like "why not cast for 223". That convinced me to try tiny bullets. The biggest obstacle is the twist rate of most .223 rifles. With 55gr spire point or soft point selling at $70 a thousand, (not today, of course) a lot of folks have never had a reason to try tiny cast bullets.

Look at the link in post 5. Less than $85/1000 for jacketed.

[charlie b]

A lot of us 'chase' accuracy with cast bullets. Mine are .308. If I have a really good day then my groups will be just under an inch at 100yd. Most of the time I will have at least one flyer open it up to 1.5" (3" at 200yd). Those are 5 and 10 round groups.

If you look at the cast benchrest matches someone who consistently shoots less than 1" groups will usually win a match.

My .223 bolt gun 'easily' shoots 1/2" at 100yd as long as I am doing a good job shooting. That takes good bullets. I prefer the 69 and 77gn Sierra Match Kings as a decent balance of accuracy and price. Another shooter did a long comparison of .223 components and settled on 77gn Sierra Tipped Match Kings as being slightly better than the hollow point SMK's. Berger's, Lapua's, etc are at another level if you and the rifle can take advantage of their precision and extra cost.

If I want a load for plinking I will use the cheap 55gn FMJBT ammo. Pre-COVID I would pay just under $11/100. They would shoot just over 1" at 100yd.

For short ranges you could also follow the bench rest folks and use flat base varmint bullets out to 200yd.

FWIW, it takes a good rifle and skill to shoot a rifle consistently at less than 1/2MOA.

So, all depends on how accurate you want to be. And factor in the above comments about trouble with function on a semi-auto.


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