So can someone answer me a few basic questions about reloading

[Stopsign32v]

I've been reloading off and on for about 5 years now. Successfully I'd say other than my loads are less than accurate, but I figured one day I will get that sorted out. I was a little constructive criticized on another site, which is perfectly ok as I'm always wanting to learn.

So far I've really only ever been reloading using bought cast boolits. I do want to add that ALL of my loads in lever actions and rolling blocks have been acceptable accurate for what I'm capable of (I don't shoot as much as I'd like). But when it comes to revolvers my rounds are not that accurate (some are). What I don't know is if it me or if it is the rounds. And honestly without putting in the range time I don't know if I ever will be able to tell.

Now comes to the questions I have. So with the limited range time I have, sometimes once a YEAR (I'm working on it) I don't always load up a lot of rounds to see how they perform. Getting to the point, often times I use forums for reloading recipes and look for an overall agreed loading on sites like this and others. For example the common load for 45 Colt is 8gr of Unique and I absolutely LOVE the thump this gives you but not too much. However...Accuracy completely sucks for me. Could be the load or could be me flinching, I don't know. All I do know is I enjoy reloading greatly and I enjoy shooting too.

Lately I got a GP100 in 357 Magnum and wanted to load up some rounds with powder I have since powder now doesn't exist.

Criticism point ahead

I got it wanting a good 357 Magnum thump so I loaded up 15gr of 296 and also 16gr of 296 (criticism part) but I have nothing currently but Xtreme copper coated bullets. I saw where Xtreme said these bullets are safe to send up to 1200fps without leading. These loads out of a 5" barrel gave me no leading but accuracy was rather large and I even think they were key holing if that is even possible. I absolutely love Unique powder so I also loaded up some Unique hot loads with normal primers and 6.3gr and also 8.3gr. This is where I had someone on another site tell me that 8.3gr would be way over the SAAMI 35,000psi limit. Sure enough, when I went a couple days later to look at the spent casings the primers were smooshed flat and had drag marks on the back of the cases. But in my defense I just went by what I read here...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51303580159_c4650dcb87_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/113193676@N08/g2v04N)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51303051648_55460895d4_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/113193676@N08/450Ew5)

Also I had another member ask me if I "worked my way up". If you are into reloading you have always heard this. So let me defend myself a little here and also ask a question or two for you experienced guys...

If I can't safely open a reloading manual printed in 2016 and run it's max load then why is it listed as the max load? And what do I use and trust?

When you guys say "work your way up" what exactly do you mean? Are we talking example here above...Starting load of Uniqe 6.4, then some in 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3....All the way to 8.3?

When you do "work your way up" what exactly are you doing it for?

What do I need to do to become a successful reloader for revolver rounds and have accurate and safe loads? I feel like yes I am enjoying it but I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface. I want to see the payoff for my reloading (accuracy).


I have thick skin so fire away if you need but I'm pretty bummed about all of this honestly. The rounds didn't feel right to me, maybe it was because I haven't shot a magnum in years or what but I ceased firing and will be taking all the unfired rounds down and start over. Oh and what made me think that my shooting wasn't THAT bad is my 8.3gr Unique load was...wow...stout but they were impressively accurate. All of the 296 powder loads with magnum primers were pretty bad accuracy. Again maybe flinching maybe not, I don't know. Big boom and big fireballs though. But I was smart enough to take 6 rounds of factory Remington UMC magnum rounds to compare and they were very accurate for me. So that leads me to believe my flinching wasn't that big of an issue (I did flinch though, 100%).

Oh and also I have read that copper plated bullets need to be loaded between cast and fmj load data. I chose to not follow this advice because of Xtreme stating their rounds were good to 1200fps and I focused on the manuals that I used fps load data. Was that wrong? BTW, again the copper plated bullets did not leave leading in the barrel. Accuracy definitely did not favor the plated bullets at this speed but 2 things...1 no leading...and 2 using 3 different manuals I loaded ALL 357 Magnum rounds within min and max loading. So where did I go wrong?

[jim147]

On the max load, your problem is you don't have the exact weapon the book used. So yes sneak up on max loads. I haven't even worried about max loads for years.

The biggest problem I think we see with makin a revolver accurate is the bullet fit. Chambers and barrels need to be checked and everything sized properly or it just doesn't work right.

Keep trying but back off the max loads. There is little need for them.

[Dieselhorses]

You might want to sit down before reading this :coffee:

First of all, please slow down! "Slow is good" sometimes when it comes to reloading especially when your objective is to achieve accuracy and, of course, being safe about everything! Yes, I run 15 gr's H110 in my Smith 686-7 using 158 gr. powder-coated pills. I think (and this only a theory) that your "copper coated bullets" may be too hard. Another theory is that these "store bought bullets" may be too small for your bore. When I first started casting for my .500 magnum, just about every bullet hit the target but "sideways" LOL. This happens when your bullet does not "obturate" (basically "marrying" the grooves in the rifling). Mine keyholed because my lead was way up there on the BHN scale (like 23 BHN). Anyway see if there is a way to test the hardness of bullets.

Sorry I can't elaborate on everything you asked but "working up" or "developing" a load is important simply to see what's gonna be accurate. You can't just pick "max" or somewhere in the middle because what works in one gun may act differently in another.

[Rcmaveric]

The commercial cast bullets could be your problem. You only need a bullet of 8 to 10 BHN for a unique load. I might consider water droping when hitting full throttle .357 Mag velocities, still might not.

For success in revolver. Measure your throat diameter on all cylinders. Easy way to do that is to push a bullet threw each cylinder and mike them out. They should all be within a couple thousand of each other. Size your bullets to the largest thoat or .002 (different schools of thought on this, some even say thumb pressure. Expirement and you decide).

Yes, always work up a load. Most of those books even tell you not to just jump on the max load. If you want a max load start 10% under the max load and work it up in increments. Like a Tight Group max load is 5.5g in 9mm (pulling it from butt so might not be). So load up 5 shots of 5 groups in .1 increments. Just because it says max safe load doesnt mean it is... you bullet brand could be different, your seating depth could be different and your relaoding style snd brass. Worst case scenario you loaded a bit hot, accidentally seated enough to stick a bullet into the lands. Quickloads tells me thats enough to turn a hot load into a dangerous load.

I reload for accuracy. So when i do load development i load up 10 test groups betwen the min and max (us basic math to find the increments) 5 shots each group. More than once i have found a near max load showing high pressure signs. Often i find my best accuracy closer the light or mid side. I do big increments then a fine tune increments. Sand bag the guns so you know the ammo is accurate. That way when you prsctice you know its the jerk behind the trigger and not the bang pills.



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[Rcmaveric]

Owe.... load plated bullets at cast bullet levels or find a manual with plated bullets.

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[44Blam]

You need more range time. Reloading and casting requires a lot of time both casting boolits and loading cartridges.

I actually have a cool little press (the lee one: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1013017131?pid=650614 ) that I take to the range sometimes when I really don't know what is going to work. I will load up what I think will work and bring enough components to make maybe another 15-20 rounds to dial stuff in.

Another super important piece of equipment is a chronograph. So you have a book and it says x.y grains will give you 1200 fps. When you shoot it and your chrono says 1500 fps - you know something is different and it will give you signs of overpressure well before primers and other things. Normally when I go by the book the numbers match up pretty well and you can see a very linear progression in velocity as you increase powder charge. It's when you see an increase that is no longer linear that you need to worry.

Then you'll try different powders - you might see that that one is more accurate, burns cleaner or any other number of attributes.

But when you can put in the time and really tune things your boolits will be more accurate than factory for the firearm you are loading for and it will be very repeatable. Well, and fun!

[bimus]

By working up your load and recording it is where you learn what you can trust in your firearm . The loads listed where fired in a universal receiver that is a caution flag .

[44Blam]

And lordy - 8.3 grain of unique in a 357 mag? I shoot 8 or so grain under a 240 grain boolt in 44 mag at 1100 fps...
W296 - load that one with a pretty much full case under the boolit - it's gonna kick but it'll be fun. With W296/H110/AA11FS DO NOT try to load reduced loads - I found this out the bad way.

[ryanmattes]

Wow. Sorry. It's just that you're pushing a dangerous line. Max loads can hurt you.

I think of loading as finding the right balance, between size, weight, velocity, pressure, and twist. It's a graceful dance, not a mosh pit.

Every barrel is different, and likes a slightly different velocity for a given weight. Most of the time, the most consistent load is somewhere in or near the middle. Past that ideal load, the groups almost always open up noticeably.

And with cast, fit is everything. Too small and you get gas cutting, because the gas gets around the bullet. Too big and you get pressure spikes, because driving the bullet down the rifling is like driving in a screw with a hammer. So always start by slugging your barrel, and get cast that's .001-.002 bigger. And experiment (carefully) with sizing.

I also always start at the min, or very close, and usually go in 4 or 5 steps first, fewer if there's less weight range. So for the Unique data you showed, from 6.4 to 8.3, I'd usually load 6.4, 6.8, 7.2, 7.6, and 8.0 grains. Stay under the max. Shoot those, figure out which has the best groups, then do a second, more granular ladder. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess the 7.2 was the tightest groups. So I'd load 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, and see which groups are the tightest.

There are a lot of variables. In .357, seating depth, roll or taper crimp, how hard to crimp, wax-lubed or coated, etc, in addition to charge weight. I'd also load those same ladders in sizes from .356, .357, and .358 (or .357-.359, depending on how your barrel slugs), to see what your barrel likes.

With a new revolver I may go to the range with 96 test rounds, that's 16 different 6 round groups of different sizes, seating depths, charge weights, and crimp strengths, each shot at a separate bullseye to figure out what gives me the best groupings. Start from the lightest and work your way up to the hottest. Between groups I check the barrel for leading, and the cartridges for pressure signs. Scrub the barrel with a brass brush if there's lead, or stop if you see pressure signs.

I'm not looking for the max load, I'm looking for the best load for this gun. Once I find it, then I can load in bulk.

I bought a new 1911 a few months back. The pic below is the first pass at finding a load with a particular mold. Each 10 round group is marked with a different number of stripes in a couple different colors of nail polish (donated by the SO), so I know which groups I'm loading. I mark my book the same (2nd pic), and tape the target in the book when I get home so I can track the results.

The slow, methodical way is the only way to find the best consistency and precision. That doesn't mean you can't load a bunch and have fun at the range. It just means you have to do the homework and have a purpose when you get to the range, at least until you settle on the right load. Then you can just make a bunch and shoot em.

If it were me, I'd start at the beginning with each kind of bullet you load, and write everything down.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210713/50be7f8c64bc447960f3d3fe2868ffa8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210713/97a64899f3cbfe82f2365d8e07345265.jpg

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[dverna]

For maximum loads, I start about 10-12% below maximum, Alliant lists the maximum for Unique at 7.7 gr for jacketed and 7.6 for lead. I would make up 10 rounds at each setting of 6.8, 7.0, 7.2, 7.4, 7.6 and test them.

After each shot, examine the case for signs of pressure. If there are signs of pressure, I stop testing that load.
Shoot groups off a rest. Even Master class shooters test for accuracy using a rest.

Note that seating depth has a significant affect on pressure so insure your overall length meets the specs of the load. This is called COL (Cartridge Overall Length). In the Alliant data COL for the jacketed bullet is listed at 1.575, and 1.580 for the Lead RNFP.

If your crimp groove results in a different COL you need to take that into consideration. A longer COL will result in lower pressures so you will be safe. Shorter COL will increase pressure.

The amount of crimp will also affect pressure.

IMO, if you are shooting a few times a year, and a couple of boxes at a time I would suggest you keep things simple. Casting is not worthwhile unless you are establishing a skill set for SHTF. Do not invest in casting.

For less than 500 rounds a year, I would buy decent jacketed bullets. Commercial cast bullets are less expensive but more problematic if you are pushing maximum loads in something like a .357Mag. If you go with commercial cast bullets see if you can get them sized at .359 or .360. Some suppliers will do that. You need to do more testing with cast to determine if you are getting leading and it sounds like you do not get much range time...thus my suggestion for using jacketed bullets. BTW, bring your velocity down to the 800-900 fps area and cast bullets are much more forgiving, and you will flinch less.

[Forrest r]

Some people view things as criticism, others view things as trying to keep you safe. Several people warned you what would happen and you pretty much blew them off.

At the end of the day you took data from a completely different bullet. And made up some extremely hot loads without working your loads up for the "bullet" you were using.

Extreme does have data for their bullets, they used power pistol for 1 of their powders. They list a max load of 7.5gr of pp for 3 of their 158gr bullets and 6.7gr of pp for 1 of their 158gr bullets. Typically you use the same amount or more pp then unique in 158gr or heavier bullets in the 357mags.

Different bullet ='s made out of different material, different seating depth (amount of case volume under the bullets base), different case neck tension (affects short start pressure & how efficient the powder burns), different bullet hardness affecting how the pressure builds in the leade's of the cylinders.

Don't know about you but thins is always my 1st concern when working up loads with data from a different bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/uIUZpPE.jpg

I cast a lot of obsolete bullets and swage my own jacketed and lead bullets. I always look at case volume of known bullets 1st and then work loads up from there.

This is what you wrote for a range report:
6.3gr of Unique with normal primers...Decently accurate and a puppy to shoot.
8.3gr of Unique with normal primers...Quite hot, large fireball from sides of cylinder. AMAZINGLY accurate!
15gr of 296 with mag primers...Clearly into magnum territory. Accuracy was falling apart and holes in paper target grew in size.
16gr of 296 with mag primers...Enough to have the only other guy there, 3 bays down to ask me "*** are you shooting? I can feel the concussion down there." Fireball from cylinder gap was legendary and accuracy was a joke.
Factory loaded Remington UMC 357 Magnum fired lastly to compare. Grouping was as good as my 8.3gr Unique load and more importantly the holes were nice and neat compared to the both 296 loads which were almost double the size. Unstable bullets?

Myself I would of:
Shot the factory rounds 1st and used that as a baseline to compare my reloads to paying attention to recoil, what the cases look like & what the bullet holes in the paper look like.
Don't know why you didn't pick up on the 8.3gr/unique loads having flattened primers with drag marks??? Typically when you see over pressure on revolver cases it's already too late.
I would of quit with the 15gr loads of 296 when I saw the holes in the target blowing out.
Have no idea why you shot the 16gr loads of 296 after seeing the 15gr loads blew out???

Anyway I'm glad you bought an extremely strong firearm like the gp100.

[358429]

Try using properly made jacketed or powdercoated bullets in your ammunition experiments. I think the problem is the plated bullets. I used them when I was getting started, the gun would Bang! and the bullets would strike the targets, but not anywhere near as well as remington green and white box.

I was using extreme 125 grain and ww296.

Those were inaccurate to say the least. At least it got me shooting.

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[sharps4590]

Not much to add, you've been given the best. All I will say is that the max loads in all books is the results of that lab, on that day using their equipment. Change one little element and the results change....even if that element is time. You changed how many and question the results?

I chased max velocities for maybe a year....some 40+ years ago in my 60 year reloading career. Learned pretty quick it's nearly always a waste of components and time.

[William Yanda]

Working up, Max load-Starting load divided by 5, work up in steps. Don't thank me, I read it somewhere, I think it was Lee.

[GregLaROCHE]

First, I have not had a lot of experience with handguns, except for 44mag for bear protection. I didn’t hesitate to always load the max! Accuracy wasn’t the name of the game, only max energy. Back then I was only using jacketed bullets.

It may be different with hand guns, but with rifles, working your way up the ladder, so to speak, let’s you find the sweet spot for your barrel, for the best accuracy.

So it all depends what you are looking for. Do you want max energy or max accuracy?

[Sasquatch-1]

Every one has hit on all the aspects of the reloading side of your problem...so here is a little trick to try the next time you go to the range. If someone else is at the range while you are there ask them to load two to four rounds in you revolver for you and close it up before giving it back. Shoot the revolver without looking at the cylinder. When you hit an empty chamber you will know whether or not you are flinching.

I truly believe it is you and not the loads that are the problem. Load down for practice until you get proficient then start the max loads.

[sharps4590]

Every one has hit on all the aspects of the reloading side of your problem...so here is a little trick to try the next time you go to the range. If someone else is at the range while you are there ask them to load two to four rounds in you revolver for you and close it up before giving it back. Shoot the revolver without looking at the cylinder. When you hit an empty chamber you will know whether or not you are flinching.

I truly believe it is you and not the loads that are the problem. Load down for practice until you get proficient then start the max loads.

Yeah, there is always that. Who among us hasn't been surprised at his reaction?

[toallmy]

I found plated bullets to shoot much better at cast boolit velocity , so I decided to start casting . I also discovered I enjoyed shooting my handguns more without feeling like I had a stick of dynamite going off in my hand every time I squeezed the trigger . I still shoot some full power loads with commercial jacketed bullets - key words are ( commercially jacketed bullets ) not plated .
You definitely went the wrong way with your starting load development , going to the upper extreme to start with , but you learned a valuable lesson that you will hopefully remember . I suppose that's why the manuals say to work up to the maximum load not start out there and see what happens .
In all honesty probably a lot of us have jumped in the hot end of the load data loading prematurely .
I have gotten to the point now that when I'm trying out new load development I don't load any test rounds at the top end to carry with me to the range , because I generally end up pulling them apart when I get home anyway .
I'm not very good with a handgun ether it seams the little devil keeps wiggling around while I'm trying to stay on target so load work up is troubling for me . So I need to shoot off a bench with a rest to actually see what is going on .
Don't get out of heart learn from the experience and move on with the knowledge you have gained .

[Thumbcocker]

Not a loading suggestion but if you don't get to the range often invest in some snap caps and dry fire the snot out of your handguns. Be deliberate. Take your time. Build your grip. Get a good sight picture on an aiming point (a small sticker on a wall, design in the wall paper. Refrigerator magnet) focus on sight picture and trigger squeeze. You can get a lot of practice in by dry firing during commercials.

Work up to the penny on the front sight trick. You will notice a difference at your next trip to the range.

[JimB..]

Even when shooting by myself I always load 5 rounds, spin the cylinder and close it without looking. I used to sometimes load 4, but once I hit the first I knew where the second was so it was a waste.

I’ve loaded a lot of plated bullets, and continue to do so for autoloaders, but I find them relatively inaccurate in a revolver.

Slug your throats and barrel, order bullets that are properly sized.

Have you read a reloading manual? There are some free online in pdf.

Or ignore everything else, use whatever bullets you have, and load at mid levels. The bullets will likely be more accurate than you and it’ll be that way until you’re shooting more often.

[Stopsign32v]

Thanks for the help everyone. Be assured I am reading and taking in the information from all posts. I just ordered my first molds for 357 and plan to order more, get into powder coating, and start dedicating at least once a month of shooting at the range.

I really want to get into reloading. I don't know how to explain it but best I can say is at this point I feel like, yes I have been reloading, but I have never gotten INTO reloading. I want to get into the measuring (more than just OAL) and really start with mixed loads and take a note book to the range type stuff. I can't explain how much I really enjoy reloading. Something about making something from scratch that you can shoot yourself is very satisfying to me.

[country gent]

The reason for working up to max loads are as mentioned above you dont have the same exact firearm as was used. A lot of manuals used a universal receiver set up to measure pressure.
Do to manufacture ring tolerances every firearm is slightly different. Chambers, throats, leades, bores and grooves all may vary slightly affecting pressure. Then the actual reloading process, varying case capacities, seating depths crimp all also affect pressure. Then a big question is is is the 8.3 grns of powder the same as the 8.3 grns they loaded. Unless you check your scales with a set of check weights your in the dark and this still dosnt check theirs.

What I would recommend is to do 2 things 1st buy a box or 2 of factory ammo and test that in your gun and see how that performs, then put together some light target loads and shoot them see how they perform in your gun.

[Stopsign32v]

The other thing I think I really need is a new powder dispenser. Right now I have the most basic of basic LEE single stage kits so I'm using the ****ty LEE powder thrower

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PLDBFK5n6n4/maxresdefault.jpg

It sucks on a pretty big scale. Sometimes I throws the loads as much as .5 off (but sometimes it throws the same amount 10 times in a row) and the handle gets very gritty and hard to work.

[charlie b]

Yes, that Lee measure is ok but not great. Many powder measures will throw an 'off' load every now and then. But, it is normally off 0.2gn or so. I use the Lee disk measure for pistol loads. Best is to throw the load into a pan and measure on a scale (digital scales are inexpensive). If it is within tolerance then pour it into the case. If not put it back in the measure and drop another charge.

As others have mentioned, loading to max is simply not necessary unless you are hunting big game. Even then it is questionable. When I reload pistols I normally pick a load half way between min and max. If it works I use it. Sometimes in auto loaders I will go up a little to make sure it cycles reliably.

Others have already mentioned the issues with plated bullets and cast at too high a velocity. Basically if I want to shoot above 1200fps then I either use gas checks or powder coat (or both). And you will want to size the bullets for your gun.


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[Soundguy]

My opinion? I load for accuracy. Ladder test some rounds.. go with best.. make those. I wouldn't be making inaccurate rounds.

[dverna]

Just one last piece of advice from me....and that is how your charge your cases. Some powders are easy to double charge.

Get into good habits.

First, only have the powder cannister you are using on the bench. Keep the others in a different spot. I use shelves away from the bench.

Second, to not use a loading block to charge your cases. Put your sized and primed cases in a container. Pick up a case, charge the case, AND NEVER LET GO OF THE CASE UNTIL YOU SEAT THE BULLET. Doing it this way makes it nearly impossible to ever double charge a case when loading with a single stage press. IMO most double charges are caused by folks using single stage presses and loading blocks to hold their charged cases before seating bullets. Do not listen to folks who say they inspect every case in the loading block with a bright light to check for double charges. It only takes one mistake to have an incident. And some people are just not as attentive as others. What works for them may not work for everyone. My way works for everyone. It is also faster as you handle the case less often. Charging cases separately offers no advantages wrt to either safety or productivity.

I do not watch TV while reloading and will not let children be around. Cats can be troublesome...older well behaved dogs who do not need attention are acceptable.

[mozeppa]

i don't know if anyone else has touched on this ....but here goes anyway,

many here will agree that most guns don't shoot precision accurate when shooting balls to the wall maximum powder loads.

the other thing is ...neither will you.

lastly , shooting maximum loads only just plain beats the hell out of your guns.

what fun is there in destroying your hands and shoulders and your guns only to miss your intended target at warp factor 9?

i get the same thump and noise in a bar fight ....to each his own!:bigsmyl2:

[Stopsign32v]

Just one last piece of advice from me....and that is how your charge your cases. Some powders are easy to double charge.

Get into good habits.

First, only have the powder cannister you are using on the bench. Keep the others in a different spot. I use shelves away from the bench.

Second, to not use a loading block to charge your cases. Put your sized and primed cases in a container. Pick up a case, charge the case, AND NEVER LET GO OF THE CASE UNTIL YOU SEAT THE BULLET. Doing it this way makes it nearly impossible to ever double charge a case when loading with a single stage press. IMO most double charges are caused by folks using single stage presses and loading blocks to hold their charged cases before seating bullets. Do not listen to folks who say they inspect every case in the loading block with a bright light to check for double charges. It only takes one mistake to have an incident. And some people are just not as attentive as others. What works for them may not work for everyone. My way works for everyone. It is also faster as you handle the case less often. Charging cases separately offers no advantages wrt to either safety or productivity.

I do not watch TV while reloading and will not let children be around. Cats can be troublesome...older well behaved dogs who do not need attention are acceptable.

Yea this is what I do. I have the powder inside my house and my reloading area only ever has the powder I'm loading right then and there. And when I throw powder in the case I then put it in the seat and put a bullet in.

[Stopsign32v]

I think the absolute first thing I need to do before shooting again is have properly sized powder coated bullets.

[mdi]

If I can't safely open a reloading manual printed in 2016 and run it's max load then why is it listed as the max load? And what do I use and trust?

When you guys say "work your way up" what exactly do you mean? Are we talking example here above...Starting load of Uniqe 6.4, then some in 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3....All the way to 8.3?

When you do "work your way up" what exactly are you doing it for?


Max loads listed in any manuals are SAAMI pressure related (newer manuals/tested loads are tested with much more accurate equipment than older tests and some are much more accurate than the copper crush method). The tech tech/labs used their equipment, often a universal receiver and barrel and not a gun, to check load pressures and list those loads that are at or near SAAMI max. The old saw we hear quite often is "Each gun is tool unto in itself", meaning every gun is not exactly the same as far as performance. My gun may be safe with xxx grains of Big Bang powder but the same xxx grains may be OK for a while, but exert too much wear and tear in your gun.

Working up means starting with minimum loads and adding a bit of powder after testing each charge and recording results. Next load is tested and recorded and so on until a safe accurate, consistent load is reached quite often not at or near max. Again this is done for your gun.

The charge increases are fairly personal and if asked on a forum you'll get several increase amounts. Personally, I start at a chosen book min and jump 1/2 to 1 grain depending on caliber and components, until I find a promising load then tweek the charge by smaller amounts, up and down until "The Load" is determined for the gun.

"Working up" is the term for starting with lighter powder charges and increasing the charge until the results wanted (velocity, function, accuracy) are achieved for your gun, customizing/tailoring the load for your gun safely...

You will find some loads that are fairly universal that will work well in several guns, but the idea is to reload for your specific gun(s) safely. Starting at the max is kinda like reading that your new car will go 125 mph and get 20 mpg and first time driving getting on the highway and pushing it to 125, no break in, no warm up. Yeah you can do that, but is it a wise/safe thing to do?..

There are a bunch of "how to" posts above and most will probably help but I have my Rule #1; I pay no attention to any load data I see on any forum or pet loads website or hear from any gun counter clerk, good intended friend, range rat or gun shop guru. I get 98% of my load data from published manuals with a bit from powder/bullet manufacturers' websites. I had one squib in 1979 and no Kabooms and customized some very accurate loads. I like reloading so taking a bit longer to find "The Load" is just more fun. More researching, more reloading, more shooting, more analyzing (I have a 3 ring binder for the loads I put together from '88 to 2000 and started a a couple others as I've had to use one just for handguns, one for my Garand, one for shotgun)...

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun...

[pjames32]

Safety has got to be at the top of your list. I would buy some jacketed bullets and lern to be a good safe consistent reloader BEFORE you adventure into casting! Read aa few reloading manuals. They have a lot of good safety information that you NEED to learn first. You have had a lot of good constructive comments without too much criticism. Take them to heart annd be safe. Don't be the guy at the range that causes everyone else to leave when they show up at the range. Safety first!

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Maybe a near by forum member would be willing to check out your revolver throats for size. Once you know that you will know what sized cast boolits to use. Try some medium loads of faster powders like HP 38, HS 6 or Unique again. 158 gr. projectiles always gave me good accuracy in .357.

[Stopsign32v]

Maybe a near by forum member would be willing to check out your revolver throats for size. Once you know that you will know what sized cast boolits to use. Try some medium loads of faster powders like HP 38, HS 6 or Unique again. 158 gr. projectiles always gave me good accuracy in .357.

Does this not work? Melt a lead round ball in a 38 special cast and then push that from back to front of the cylinder chambers? Then measure them with a micrometer? Just an idea

[Baltimoreed]

Not getting into anything too deep or specific I’ve found that the most accurate handgun loads will be the lighter loads not max loads. Heavy loads have much more recoil which will enlarge the group and can cause a flinch to develop which will also enlarge the group. Pushing lead too fast will strip the rifling and lead your bbl. If you were building revolver loads for a bear or moose hunt ok then but it would become a trade off as to the necessary ballistic performance vs the acceptable accuracy at hunting ranges. Not the case with target work. You’re NOT trying to ‘kill’ the target. Lighten up, get an accurate load built up and then see how fast you can go before it goes south. A chronograph might be a good investment too.

[Texas by God]

I've never heard any reloader say" Man, those plated bullets are accurate!"
8.3 grains of Unique is a good load for magnum revolver cartridges starting with a 4- not a 3......
I agree with using factory loads to set a baseline- then work to make your handloads more accurate- not more powerful.

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[fredj338]

First, its really hard to determine accuracy of anything if one cant shoot well. SO removing as much shooter error is critical to evaluate any given load. With any handgun or rifle, if factory ammo is available, then I like to run at least one brand of something as a benchmark. This at least tells me what my gun is capable of with some uniform ammo. Then I can start handloading with something to compare with.

If I can't safely open a reloading manual printed in 2016 and run it's max load then why is it listed as the max load? And what do I use and trust?
Because every gun is diff. Manuals are guides, the data really only valid in that specific test platform. Plus you rarely are using identical components.

When you guys say "work your way up" what exactly do you mean? Are we talking example here above...Starting load of Uniqe 6.4, then some in 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3....All the way to 8.3? Yes

When you do "work your way up" what exactly are you doing it for? For safety reasons, see previous answer on test platforms.

What do I need to do to become a successful reloader for revolver rounds and have accurate and safe loads? I feel like yes I am enjoying it but I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface. I want to see the payoff for my reloading (accuracy).
The first thing is to measure all your cyl throats with a pin gages or iD micrometer. That is the size your bullet will bump or swage to as it leaves the cyl & hits the bbl. If the bore is say 0.357" & the throats 0.356", the bullet will bump at some point, maybe, as it goes down the bbl. Never good for accuracy. Accuracy will vary with a given powder & bullet combo. Some say bbl harmonics. I know that is true with longer rifle bbls but not sure it plays into handguns with 6" or less bbls. Still, some types of bullets like some types of powders. An example is Unique seems to be magic with lead bullets in most handguns. Other bullets may show a pref for something else. So the only way to know is load them & shoot them.
As to accuracy. What is your goal? Are you capable of say offhand 2" accuracy @ 25Y? If not, then striving for that off the bench is a nice goal but in the end only matters if you are shooting off the bench. Most guns & ammo will out shoot their owners by a good margin.

[fredj338]

Not getting into anything too deep or specific I’ve found that the most accurate handgun loads will be the lighter loads not max loads. Heavy loads have much more recoil which will enlarge the group and can cause a flinch to develop which will also enlarge the group. Pushing lead too fast will strip the rifling and lead your bbl. If you were building revolver loads for a bear or moose hunt ok then but it would become a trade off as to the necessary ballistic performance vs the acceptable accuracy at hunting ranges. Not the case with target work. You’re NOT trying to ‘kill’ the target. Lighten up, get an accurate load built up and then see how fast you can go before it goes south. A chronograph might be a good investment too.

Recoil in itself wont enlarge the group, its all about the shooter. My magnums are pretty darn accurate out to 100y if I do my part. I have shot 3" groups off he bench with several of my 44mags. It doesnt matter if I am shooting midrange or full house, proper technique is what delivers repeatable accuracy.

[Win94ae]

All my handgun loads are loaded to jacketed bullet speeds; lead, plated or jacketed I treat them the same. Here is my practice load, which is using a medium load of VV-N-110.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvVzpPqL97E

I work up a load from a 10 or so shot ladder test, starting at the starting powder charge and increasing it 1/10 of a grain each consecutive case. I will check each case after I shoot it for overpressure signs, and stop if I find them. After firing the cartridges, I'll check the target for consecutive shots that group together.

I'll use a rest when shooting the ladder test, as well as cock the hammer, for the best accuracy I can muster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsixGxNCcI4

Notice how the handgun is placed on the rest? You don't want it resting on the barrel, it could have an effect on barrel harmonics.

When you take the ladder test, and when shooting a group, use the rest. When you test yourself, then shoot offhand.

Good luck!

[Stopsign32v]

8.3 grains of Unique is a good load for magnum revolver cartridges starting with a 4- not a 3......


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Ah come on man, live with me on the edge a little! :shock::guntootsmiley::kidding:

[Stopsign32v]

I need to learn all of the high pressure signs and learn when to cut it off. I'm telling you that 8.3gr of Unique was impressive. Good thing it was close to July 4th.

[358429]

Unique will blow up your gun much easier than 296 will.

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[M-Tecs]

Just keep in mind some firearm/cartridge max. pressure limits are well below the levels that any of the normal pressure indicators start showing warn signs. The 45 Colt in some 1873's is a good example.

[Soundguy]

No meet to melt a soft lead ball as long as it is not extremely oversized.

[1006]

I think the Lyman manual — if that is what the reload data page was from — has a very well written section on pressure signs.

I am with a couple of the previous posts: it is probably you more than the loads that is causing the accuracy issues, plated bullets have never been the most accurate choice for me—I like traditional cast and wax for accuracy, and a lighter load is usually more accurate than a heavy load.

As an aside: I ran a test of 357 load combinations and their accuracy. It consisted of Max Loads of Red Dot, H4227, and W296. Each of the powders max out at different velocities. When pushing each powder to its limit, the slower powder always had the best accuracy (w296). All three of the powders perform well at less than max loads, but the faster powder performed most accurately with the respective starting loads.

With Unique, I am guessing you just want to stay in the middle 1/3rd of the data, as a starting point. Then jump up towards the max but not all the way up, you just have to take an educated guess, based on your results.

[Sasquatch-1]

Let the young pups shoot their max loads. When they become the old dog sitting on the porch they will be down to the minimum amount of powder to get the round to the target and punch through the paper.:kidding:

[robg]

go up in 1/2gn amounts till you get the most accurate load with that particular boolit and powder combination not necessarily the max load listed

[Stopsign32v]

go up in 1/2gn amounts till you get the most accurate load with that particular boolit and powder combination not necessarily the max load listed

This is the route I plan to go going forward. I honestly didn't know this was a thing. I thought the "work your way up" was strictly for safety reasons. (not saying that isn't a good reason)

[ryanmattes]

This is the route I plan to go going forward. I honestly didn't know this was a thing. I thought the "work your way up" was strictly for safety reasons. (not saying that isn't a good reason)The problem with something arbitrary like 1/2 grain is granularity.

In a rifle load, like a 308 with N550, where the book says 43.5-48.5 that's a good ladder. But in pistols, like 9mm with Titegroup, where the book says 3.2-3.8, a half-grain is too big of a jump.

So scale it to the load. In Titegroup for 9mm, I did 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 and found a load I liked. In 308 with N550 I did 44.0, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 46.0 and found a load I liked.

Basically, my approach is to cut it into 5 groups, always backing off from the top, and backing off of the bottom as needed. That gives you a good rough picture of where you want the load to be. Then take the best group and, if there's room, cut that into 5 more granular groups, and get closer to the exact best load for that gun.

The goal is to tune the load to the particular barrel. Then, after you've done that for several different guns, you can find commonalities, like this 9mm likes 3.4 and all my others like 3.5, so I'll load to 3.5 for all of them, knowing I could eke out a tiny bit more precision if I wanted, but it's close enough for plinking ammo.

And do all your tests from a bench with a good rest.

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[Cowhide]

Do you have a electric powder scale to check the Lee powder dispenser setting and its ability to stay at the desired charge? Those Lee powder dispensers are the bottom end of powder measures. If you are using it to measure max charges straight into your case eventually you are unknowingly getting more powder then you intend to get unless you can periodically check how much powder it is dispensing.
A beam scale works good and with a powder trickler is accurate and gives consistent results. Consistency plays a big role in a accurate load.

[Stopsign32v]

The goal is to tune the load to the particular barrel. Then, after you've done that for several different guns, you can find commonalities, like this 9mm likes 3.4 and all my others like 3.5, so I'll load to 3.5 for all of them, knowing I could eke out a tiny bit more precision if I wanted, but it's close enough for plinking ammo.

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So much clarity I have gotten from the past few days. I will take this information and go forward with it! Very excited to get some loads and hit the range now. I feel like before I was really shooting in the dark.

[Stopsign32v]

Do you have a electric powder scale to check the Lee powder dispenser setting and its ability to stay at the desired charge? Those Lee powder dispensers are the bottom end of powder measures. If you are using it to measure max charges straight into your case eventually you are unknowingly getting more powder then you intend to get unless you can periodically check how much powder it is dispensing.
A beam scale works good and with a powder trickler is accurate and gives consistent results. Consistency plays a big role in a accurate load.

Yes I have a frankford arsenal digital scale. I do not like beam scales.

I do want a powder trickler and also a better powder dispenser.

[gwpercle]

I started reloading and casting in 1967 with a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook , Speer and Hornady manuals . No inter net ...
I see some good advice posted ... I also see some horse pucky ... and the trouble with posted advice is who's real and who's posting horse pucky . Try and home in on guys who have been around a while ... old timers .
Try and keep things simple . A beam scale is good to have ... electronic everything needs a back up and a check. The Lee powder measure isn't as bad as everyone is telling you ... pick the powder these scales like . Unique is a good powder , Lyman 55 will dispense these flake powders .
Try not to over complicate things . ask questions , look at all the answers and see who makes sense and who is in left field .
Every one has their way of doing things ... not right not wrong just two different ways to accomplish a goal . I know all this is confusing , but hang in there you have a great resource here and we can help . I'm terribly old school , single station press , use powder dippers a lot , simple methods and simple ways of doing things . I've tried a lot of ways and this is my way .
My powder trickler is a 30-06 case filled with powder and rolled between thum & forefinger over powder pan ...cost $0.00
Gary

[358429]

Hey gwpercle do you make custom dippers?

I stopped using these once I got the perfect powder measure, I don't even wanna admit...

to knowing how many pounds of h110 and ww296, measured exactly correct, once I figured out the secret technique to the 1.3 CC scooper...[emoji848]

I think I used them so much, they polished smooth!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/2d7a1ee97ca8ee7b25b386237a2de4ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/9e0a3cd7b60cc9153cf949cc86b7cc57.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/07ece7ab7c315d28e5529577c76efea6.jpg

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[Stopsign32v]

Hey gwpercle do you make custom dippers?

I stopped using these once I got the perfect powder measure, I don't even wanna admit...

to knowing how many pounds of h110 and ww296, measured exactly correct, once I figured out the secret technique to the 1.3 CC scooper...[emoji848]

I think I used them so much, they polished smooth!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/2d7a1ee97ca8ee7b25b386237a2de4ed.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/9e0a3cd7b60cc9153cf949cc86b7cc57.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/07ece7ab7c315d28e5529577c76efea6.jpg

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That is awesome! Gave me a good chuckle. However I watched enough of duelist1954's videos to have seen this used before. I'd never get rid of those if I were you. So tomorrow I will make a thread of the list of parts I've purchased this week alone on this journey and why. You guys can critique my decisions and tell me what else I should do. I want to be shooting cloverleafs by August out of this GP100!!!!!

[ryanmattes]

And if you don't have one already, start a load book. I use a 3 ring binder and print out a sheet for each load. Write in all the pertinent info for the load, including any notes if I have to do something unusual. Then, when I go test them at the range I mark my targets so I know which is which, so when I get home I can cut them out and tape them into the book.

Below is a load sheet I did a while back for a new 30-30 lever action. Everything the same but a ladder from 7.0-8.5 Unique in .5gr steps. I'll write in velocity readings if I take them. (the first load didn't read right)

Then you have a record you can refer back to later. When you ask yourself "How was I getting such good groups last year, and this year they suck?" Go look in your book. If nothing else, it's a place to start, to narrow down a problem or get started with a new gun. Keep you "known good" loads at the front, and let the missteps fall to the back, but later you can retrace your steps in the book to help you know where to go next.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210715/3502682cb0b529ec598d9a3c036217e3.jpg

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[dverna]

That is awesome! Gave me a good chuckle. However I watched enough of duelist1954's videos to have seen this used before. I'd never get rid of those if I were you. So tomorrow I will make a thread of the list of parts I've purchased this week alone on this journey and why. You guys can critique my decisions and tell me what else I should do. I want to be shooting cloverleafs by August out of this GP100!!!!!

Cloverleafs are easy....just keep moving the target closer.....and shoot three shot groups.

BTW, the best custom tuned pistols I have seen cannot do better than 2 1/2” groups at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest. If you can put 5 shots into 2” at 25 yards, you are doing very well. Keep your expectations realistic.

[Forrest r]

Cloverleafs are easy....just keep moving the target closer.....and shoot three shot groups.

BTW, the best custom tuned pistols I have seen cannot do better than 2 1/2” groups at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest. If you can put 5 shots into 2” at 25 yards, you are doing very well. Keep your expectations realistic.


Interesting, someone ought to tell Les Bear to quit selling 1911's with a 1 1/2" garantee. Same goes for the Marvel Precision unit 1 I ran for years. Another nm 1911 this time chambered in 9mm that managed to do under 2 1/2" groups @ 50yds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvm3pxZr6Iw

Have no idea why you'd bring up pistol accuracy or are struggling to get less than 2 1/2" groups with a mechanical rest @ 50yds. Perhaps you might check and see if everything is bolted down tight??? The op has an excellent revolver (not a pistol) that should easily do +/- 2" @ 50yds when he gets everything dialed in.

Heck playing around with a box/stock s&w 686 competitor @ 50yds. And these are 6-shot groups (not 3-shot) test 5.5gr & 6.0gr loads using 2 different bullets. All 4 groups are under 2 1/2".
https://i.imgur.com/CfpwHXk.jpg

+/- 2" 6-shot groups are very doable with a revolver @ 50yds & that gp-100 should have no trouble doing so.

[jsizemore]

Most folks have touched on the variations in guns. If you notice at the beginning of a particular cartridge, they list the firearm they used but also the list of components. Components vary enough that the start low and work up is mandatory. Tom Armbrust has a page about pressure variations between primers in shotshells. I started to load some Lake City 7.62 Nato brass. The starting load was at the neck shoulder junction. 4 other manuals had higher starting loads with the same powder. Didn't take long to figure that wouldn't work.

The idea to subtract the starting load from max and dividing by 5 is a good one. You may want to take that last incremental increase and divide it in half as you approach max.

I shot a bunch of handgun silhouette. It isn't a bunch of fun being beside someone slinging hot gas, powder and bullet bits out the cylinder/barrel gap. And the more you do it, the shorter the life of the gun.

My good friend and shooting partner couldn't find brass for his TC Contender when it was approved for hunter pistol. I asked if he was going to pull the bullets and reload some factory ammo he'd found. No, he'd shoot them and they would be fireformed to his chamber. I didn't shoot that relay so I could watch and enjoy. Factory ammo was loaded with IMR4227 and in a 10" contender barrel the fireball was as big as a basketball. I laughed every time he pulled the trigger. His brass was fireformed but it took him 6 months to get over the flinch he developed that day. That fireball looked like the ones you see in a comic book and it was the middle of the day during the summer. We couldn't convince him to do any when it got dark.

[Stopsign32v]

Where can I get the 101 on pressure signs and knowing when I am getting into dangerous territory.

Also how do companies like Buffalo Bore make 357 loads that go 1700fps out of a revolver while keeping it safe? You won't find those load suggestions in any book, so how do they do it safely?

[Outpost75]

Max. loads with Unique in .357 will quickly erode the rear face of the barrel and forcing cone, as well as flame cutting of your top strap and possibly gas cutting the front face of the cylinder. I would not exceed 6.5 grains of Unique with a 158-grain cast bullet for about 1050 fps if you want the gun to last. If you really need higher velocity, then you should select a slower, cooler-burning powder and stick to the powder manufacturer's data.

[jsizemore]

Also how do companies like Buffalo Bore make 357 loads that go 1700fps out of a revolver while keeping it safe? You won't find those load suggestions in any book, so how do they do it safely?

I see you've not met Freedom Arms.

[Forrest r]

Max. loads with Unique in .357 will quickly erode the rear face of the barrel and forcing cone, as well as flame cutting of your top strap and possibly gas cutting the front face of the cylinder. I would not exceed 6.5 grains of Unique with a 158-grain cast bullet for about 1050 fps if you want the gun to last. If you really need higher velocity, then you should select a slower, cooler-burning powder and stick to the powder manufacturer's data.


100,000 rounds down the tube of a s&w 586 and it went back to s&w to have the bbl set back, a new forcing cone cut and new timing parts. The rear of the bbl was eroded like what Outpost75 described along with it was spitting lead everywhere from worn timing parts.

200,000 rounds down the tube that same 586 went back to s&w again for the same work.

75,000 rounds later (275,000 rounds on the cylinder and bbl) the cylinder was eroded from where the end of the case sits clear into the leades of the cylinder holes. The lands on the drive side of them were worn pretty bad. And the end of the bbl had the typical erosion that outpost75 talked about. What that bbl looked like when I took it off. 75,000 rounds on the eroded back of the bbl. 275,000 rounds on the lands.
https://i.imgur.com/Sg4LjIe.jpg

Not the best picture but you can clearly see the "step" that was eroded cylinder holes.
https://i.imgur.com/oVb0XFC.jpg

Outpost75 has forgotten more than most people know when it comes to revolvers. The pictures of the erosion he is talking about is pictured above on those 586 parts.

[Stopsign32v]

Yea I'm done with really hot loads of Unique or faster burning powder. But how are you suppose to know when you are in the danger zone? 6.5gr of unique is far below what middle and high loads for 158gr are. I'm not doubting the knowledge, just trying to figure out how you would know.

[Walks]

The most accurate load I've found for .357Mag with Unique is 6.0grs under a #358429. Bullet sized .358 and lubed with 50/50.

But that is in MY 1973 NM Blackhawk. Doesn't mean it'll shoot great for you. Each Revolver is a "Law" unto itself.

[Outpost75]

Where can I get the 101 on pressure signs and knowing when I am getting into dangerous territory.

Also how do companies like Buffalo Bore make 357 loads that go 1700fps out of a revolver while keeping it safe? You won't find those load suggestions in any book, so how do they do it safely?

Most likely they don't use pressure measuring equipment or reference ammunition maintained to industry standards. They aren't members of SAAMI, so my take is that they are using non-canister powders not available to the public and working up loads by the seat of their pants. They will probably keep at it until they get sued. There is no free lunch. They are either lying about performance or assembling dangerous loads.

My testing of Buffalo Bore ammo in .32 ACP didn't approach their claimed velocity and few guns in my collection would run the stuff. I designed my own bullets, tested my own loads and also ran guns to destruction. I have since put out recipes for safe loads which match or exceed theirs.

[Outpost75]

Yea I'm done with really hot loads of Unique or faster burning powder. But how are you suppose to know when you are in the danger zone? 6.5gr of unique is far below what middle and high loads for 158gr are. I'm not doubting the knowledge, just trying to figure out how you would know.

Not sure which manual you are using for your source load data? All published data older than the mid 1980s is extremely suspect. You should use a currently published source of published data fired using the exact powder, primers and bullets which you are using. If using older Hercules rather than current Alliant powder, it is OK to cautiously use the older data which is contemporary to the manufacture date of your powder, but I stay 10% below published maximums.

I say this because in many loading manuals prior to the mid-1980s max. loads were not always pressure tested. Subjective pressure signs such as sticky extraction or flattened primers do not appear until you have far exceeded safe revolver limits. I would not rely on load manuals prior to 1990 unless pressure data is published along with the loads and it is clear whether they used radial copper or piezoelectric methods of pressure measurement. This is necessary because the reference ammunition calibration standards and data analysis conventions are entirely different. If you use other components, different bullets, changing primers or seating depth, all bets are off.

I find the Speer No.11 and later manuals to be OK. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition, 2010 is also good.

Checking Alliant's website today they list 6 grains of Unique as the maximum load in .357 for a 158-grain Speer SWC lead bullet. They no longer list Unique at all for full-charge loads with jacketed bullets in .357. Therein lies what we call in LE "a clue." They do list data for BE86, but my experience with that particular powder is extremely limited, being mostly in 9x19mm and .40 S&W, not in .38 Special or .357.

Keep in mind that SAAMI Max. pressure is not a machine loading limit, but the Pmax or maximum statistical individual pressure, aka X-Bar + 3 Sigma limit.

In over 20 years professional engineering experience in the firearms industry and military I do have a little experience at this.

[missionary5155]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

[mozeppa]

living on the edge will get you hurt or killed.

never trust "high pressure signs" learn before as much as you can .... don't get in a rush. it'll always be there.
you just can't load up a bunch of "light speed" rounds and go shoot them.

something itches in the back of my head.....are you 16 years old?

[Tar Heel]

The manual you are looking at which was published within the last few years, establishes a RANGE of powder weight from a minimum to a maximum. Your specific most efficient (accurate) load will be somewhere between the minimum and the maximum data points. Avoid going below the minimum data point and definitely avoid going near or above the maximum data point. If a range is 10 grains, I make 5 sets of test loads in x grain increments. I always shoot for at least 5 sets of testable loads.

The minimum and maximum data points can vary among manufacturers and vary across the years. Propellants formulations change, test equipment is different among testing entities, experience has indicated changes, new powders are available, and the list goes on as to why the data varies across the field and the length of the field.

In all my years of handloading, I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, started at a max load. I have always crept up to that point seeking the most accurate load within the two data points. That has saved me from disaster a few times. Once with Blue Dot in the 9mm and once with Herco in the 357 Mag. I admit there were times my intuition said "go for it" but my better judgement prevailed. I still have all 10 fingers.

In all my years reloading, I have only had two cartridges perform best at the high end of the load spectrum in MY GUNS. One cartridge is the 300 Win Mag and the other is the .25-06. OK a third one is the 411-JDJ. These are the only cartridges I load near the max loads and I know I am dancing a fine line. If anything changes on me a real rude surprise may be around the corner waiting for me. I trust that the manufacturers have a little built in safety to cover that area of probability - but then again.....

Hope this mind dump may help some. Just please be careful around the max data points. You are dancing with demons there.

[fredj338]

go up in 1/2gn amounts till you get the most accurate load with that particular boolit and powder combination not necessarily the max load listed

Depending on powder. 1/2gr increments can be a disaster. Powders like TG go from starting to max in about 1/2gr.
I divide the powder burn rate chart into 3 levels for handgun; fast, medium & slow. With fast powders, workups are 1/10gr increments. With medium 2/10gr, with slow 4/10gr workups. This will let you chart vel gains & see where the linear increase flattens out, a sign your pressures are hitting max. When you see pressures signs, you are generally already at max.

[guy_with_boolits]

Cloverleafs are easy....just keep moving the target closer.....and shoot three shot groups.

BTW, the best custom tuned pistols I have seen cannot do better than 2 1/2” groups at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest. If you can put 5 shots into 2” at 25 yards, you are doing very well. Keep your expectations realistic.


Huh? 1.3" 50yds 1911 from a RR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Xh-DDwy5E

[Tar Heel]

286349

[Tar Heel]

286350

[Duckiller]

In an older manual, I believe it was either Speer or Hornady they gathered every 38 Special revolver that anyone that work at their factory had. Loaded a bunch of ammo to a reasonable level and started shooting and testing. As I recall velocities were all over the place, pressures were all over the place, accuracy varied greatly. Point of the exercise was that guns vary greatly and use their info as a guide but work up loads slowly and carefully. Early on I loaded 50 rounds to a manual's max. Whole bunch of H110 ,mag primer ,don't remember the bullet weight. It was a REAL hot load. Once I shot the 50 rounds nothing was ever loaded that hot again. Take your time in working up loads. Do increments of a few rounds. You will find accurate loads this way and will not end up with a bunch of ammo too hot to shoot. There is no rush to do anything. If you HAVE to have ammo tomorrow, buy it. All of this is a hobby ,relax and enjoy it.

[WRideout]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

This has been exactly my experience with those two powders in 357 mag. In my relatively light Mod 19, a near max charge of Unique would cause the revolver to rotate in my grip, and cut the web of my thumb with the cylinder latch button. Now, I use a very moderate charge of 2400 with complete satisfaction. With recoil tamed, it is almost as accurate as my wadcutter 38 spl loads.
Wayne

[Mr_Sheesh]

In 7mm Rem Mag I like H4831, compressed loads, as I figure it's slow enough to be pretty easy on the rifle.

Hammering a firearm - just because you CAN - seems a bad idea to me, as if it should go KABOOM, it's your face, hands, eyes, and other precious bits right there next to that 55k PSI BOMB that you just forced to go off. I have better things to do than blowing up my precious firearms :) If you feel differently, uh OK...

In handguns you can't really use H4831, OK, but for the more powerful loads I use the slowest powder that works well (if it doesn't burn well it's too slow, and/or it's too slow for your barrel length.) For plinkers, no problem with Bullseye or Red Dot or whatever, but a 45 Colt max load? You will want to pick a slower powder, most likely. Faster for snubs, is OK.

Slower powders keep pushing the bullet or boolit as it travels down the barrel, tend to get the highest velocity, and as there is lower pressure, stress the barrel and action less. If you can't understand why stressing the firearm that's right in your face, LESS, is important, please think on it, consider why KABOOMS are bad, I have faith that you will figure it out :)

And I am an accuracy fiend, I just plain don't load for max pressure / velocity, I want to hit what I am shooting at. (That said, about 40 of the 160 Gr. J-word bullet loads I make for 7mm Rem Mag fired in one afternoon, will get my shoulder sore for a few days, BUT they're acceptable because I can take that Coyote that was a ridiculous distance away DOWN with 1 round, BOOM, WHACK, THUD, which is the whole idea. Never shot a big game animal, so far, with that rifle. Betting it'd hammer them well.)

Reloading your own ammo gives you great power, use it wisely :)

[fredj338]

You want to be real careful with Unique. It acts normal going up the the pressure ladder until it gets to whatever over pressure load then goes very high pressure with the next increase Near explosive !
I would never exceed a tested a load in a manual with Unique. If you need more FPS switch to something like 2400 or slower.

I have acutally not seen that happen, jmo. I have used Unique in 9mm +P loads, it shows very linear vel gains, tells me pressures are not spiking.

[Three44s]

Unique is a great powder at mid range pressures but it does not make sense at max.

I run Skeeter Skelton range with it and switch to HS 6 for more horse power, not max with that powder either mind you.

If I want more, I move up to 2400 and then to 296 and H110 for real horse power in a revolver.

I may have missed it but the thing that hammers lead boolits (and guns) is peak pressure. But turning to slower powders we are lengthening the dwell time of the boolit transitioning from the cartridge at rest to its exit from the muzzle.

Faster powders over stress boolits at peak pressures. Fast powders are fine at lower pressures for lighter loads, but when it’s time to up the ante, a slower powder fits the task much better.

The same thing applies going down in charge weight. There is a floor of sorts with slower powders where you do not want to drop below (WW 296 and H 110 are prime examples) and you must drop back to a faster powder as you lower your load intensity.

Lots of folks want just one powder but there are some very good reasons to not force all of your loading with just one flavor and the most important one is safety!

I think the OP needs to go “to the wood shed” AND READ a number of full fledged Reloading manuals cover to cover!

I think he’s stricken with instant gratification and must break that affliction.

If he had read even a cursory amount from any one of them he would have never gotten into this crazy notion that you can just pick up a manual, find a bullet seemingly close to his and pour the max charge in and let the “pendulum” swing!

Rant off

Three44s