What is this area really for?

[bisleyfan41]

Here is the post from 45nut about what the Helping Hands sub-forum is intended for:

"The goal.
The new area is intended to help those that really can use the help in these dire economic times, if you have duplicates, triplicates and such of an item that you feel would be appreciated by someone that simply could not afford it then you can offer it up, or even nominate someone for help if you see a true need and cannot provide it yourself, then put out a call.
Helping Hands is based on the nature shown by prior selfless and generous members here giving where they can."

But all I see are thread titles stating "I need...." or "Looking for....."

Check out just the first page of titles. Way more than half are posters wanting something. Shouldn't this be the section for helping others?? Just asking.

[rancher1913]

wanted posts really should go under s&s in my opinion but it seems we are getting a lot of newbie members that have joined just to try and get supplies.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a really good question, bisleyfan41. The main purpose of "Helping Hands" is to help someone in need. But how do you know what they need if they don't express that need? On the other hand, if you just offer something up as I and many others have done, when someone immediately claims the item, how do you know that they really needed it and weren't motivated by greed or opportunism?
So, I would have to vote for answering an expressed need as being the better choice.

DG

[0verkill]

How many people claim an item in PIF and never post something in return? I guess right now I'm one of them since I have some brass coming and haven't posted in return yet.

I don't know what the name Der Gebirgsjager means, but that's about the best answer.

[Minerat]

An example. I had a TI59 engineering calculator that I did not need. Since it was not gun related, I put it in Helping Hands and ask the interested person to explain why they needed it. It went to a High School student in Alaska who's dad explained the young man needed it for a math class but they did not have the wherewithal to buy one. I paid shipping and it went to a good home.

I suspect this is also where georgeonedollarbill gets his leads for raiding members stashes to help himself find things and to get leads on your rye whiskey or dark roast coffee reserves.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I don't know what the name Der Gebirgsjager means,

The Mountain Hunter.

[0verkill]

You're still right, how do you know who needs something unless they ask?

[Minerat]

Maybe one way to look at it is that helping hands is just that. You ask, receive and say thank you, or you accept an offer to help and say thank you. It is a gift that requires no repayment other then to say Thank You!

In PIF it is expected that your offer is a gift that you give but only ask that at some point the receiver will do or give something to another needy party as a repayment for your kindness. It is the receivers responsibility and on his conscious as to when or if he repays.

[dale2242]

I am glad this has been brought up.
I`m sure a lot of people weren`t aware what it is for.
With the component and equipment shortage, this is a good time to donate your extra/ unneeded equipment to a new shooters/reloaders.
It`s time for me to look through nearly 60 years of accumulation of loading shooting supplies am see what I can do.
If someone takes it out of greed not need, let that lie upon there conscience.

[brstevns]

I would like to say something being one of those that has posted I need a certain Item. In my case I swallowed my pride because I could not afford something no matter how cheap it might be. Old man small SS says it all. What good would it do to place a post in S&S if you could not pay for it?
When I sell something to have hobby money I post in the S&S. for a item I need. I also pif and put up a pif for one I have taken.
I also look at the post of items needed by members in Helping hands and have sent items to members because I felt they might be in the same condition as I am at times. Like said, if they are here just because of creed or to make money off a item that falls on them.
Members on this site are the Greatest and are willing to help when they can. Want to say God Bless to all of those that have helped me.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Not trying to beat this subject to death, but if one looks at the home page list of forums and sub-forms, way down the list at the bottom of the Swappin' & Sellin" section there is one named "Pay it Forward". If you have something you don't need anymore and want to give it away, that is the technically correct place to list it. Although I don't see it in black and white, it is generally understood that if you take advantage of an offer and claim an item you are expected to offer up something yourself in a reasonable amount of time. The idea is to keep a chain of good deeds going. It is also acceptable to request shipping from the recipient who is receiving the otherwise free item, but not required to do so. Sadly, it seems human nature that the chain usually ends after 2-3 exchanges.

Conversely, "Helping Hands" is designed to fill a stated need. "You need it, I've got it and I don't need it, you can have it." When sending an item in response to a H&H need you are not supposed to charge shipping. It is to be a gift, and this is stated in the H&H rules. There is no requirement for the recipient of a H&H item to offer something. Should he decide to do so anyway, it should be offered in the Pay it Forward section as it's not being offered in response to a stated need, just in gratitude.

There are always chiselers and those poised to take advantage, and you must give wisely. That's why the rules also state that if you are giving something away the "first I'll take it" rule doesn't apply. PIF claims are limited to one per month per member. The item is yours and you're giving it away, so you can give it to whom you wish. Also, "banked" PIFs are not allowed, where the recipient takes an item but says "I'll owe a PIF because I don't want to get rid of anything right now."

That's how I read it.

DG

[rancher1913]

I should clarify a bit so I dont come across as so harsh. I have no problem with some one asking for help on a project and I have gone out of my way to help georgeonedollar as much as I can, my beef (catch the pun) is when a member with less than say 30 posts, posts wanted ads for powder and primers, just seems that their sole reason for joining cast boolits is to take advantage of the generous soles on here. if its a post for a obsolete part or something they need to complete a project and they cant seem to find it, then this would be the place.

[Rizzo]

Not trying to beat this subject to death, but if one looks at the home page list of forums and sub-forms, way down the list at the bottom of the Swappin' & Sellin" section there is one named "Pay it Forward". If you have something you don't need anymore and want to give it away, that is the technically correct place to list it. Although I don't see it in black and white, it is generally understood that if you take advantage of an offer and claim an item you are expected to offer up something yourself in a reasonable amount of time. The idea is to keep a chain of good deeds going. It is also acceptable to request shipping from the recipient who is receiving the otherwise free item, but not required to do so. Sadly, it seems human nature that the chain usually ends after 2-3 exchanges.
FWIW, there is a Sticky at the top of the list of threads in the Pay It Forward forum called:
Sticky: PIF "Fair Play Rules"

While these are not rules, per se, it has suggestions on how the PIF section might work, including the Shipping issue.

Regarding the first "I'll Take It!", the one offering up the item can handle that as he pleases but, in my opinion, I see many "I'll Take It!" just minutes after the original post and by the time other members who need it or can use it get to that thread the item has been spoken for.
Perhaps in fairness to everyone the OP could set a time limit and then draw a name "out of a hat" to get the "winner".

Just a thought.

[Three44s]

I have not done a helping hands here but have been the recipient of similar gestures from at least two members of Boolits that are local and also a person who not affiliated with any forum who gave me 10 pounds of powder (was given to him by a close friend of his).

I tried to convince the guy with the powder to keep it and I would teach him to handload but he insisted on me having that powder.

...... So when I fell into 2 boxes of .264 Win Mag once fired brass, that he shoots, guess what! Right back at him! He offers to buy it, I refused to accept $

He intends to get to loading and I have put him on notice that the powder he gave me should at least in part revert back.

As bad as this world seems, there are stil a majority of pretty good ones around!

Three44s

[brstevns]

I should clarify a bit so I dont come across as so harsh. I have no problem with some one asking for help on a project and I have gone out of my way to help georgeonedollar as much as I can, my beef (catch the pun) is when a member with less than say 30 posts, posts wanted ads for powder and primers, just seems that their sole reason for joining cast boolits is to take advantage of the generous soles on here. if its a post for a obsolete part or something they need to complete a project and they cant seem to find it, then this would be the place.

Nicely said

[Shawlerbrook]

Been here for over 5 years now and out of the half dozen sites I frequent, this one seems to have the most generous and pleasant membership. As far as I can see, the mods have set up a very enjoyable forum. You will always get a few that try to scam the system, but usually they don’t last very long.

[daengmei]

Too many "milk the cow". I offered up something to sell, got "I'll take it" then was told I paid less somewhere else. That "member" has not posted very much since that time....there is no gentlemanship among some of the newer users. Take advantage of trust and sooner or later you will not be trusted.

[bisleyfan41]

The reason I asked in the original post is that this seems to have turned into a WTB subforum. To the poster brstevns above, I think you are the intended target of this subforum. And I LOVE the idea of being able to help folks who may not be able to afford equipment or supplies. I've been there, done that, and got the Tshirt.

But if you look at the posts I was referring to, they just seem to be " help me find" this or that. The authors of these threads dont even seem like they're trying to get anything for free. They are just looking for a gun part or a tree branch or a shell holder or.....?????

IMO, these should be posted in the S&S section as a WTB, rather than here where it seems items should be offered up for free, shipping included to anybody in need WITHOUT the expectations of having to give something up to receive it.

I dont know, whatever the mods decide/tolerate. I was going through some stuff that I just want to give to anybody who needs it. Was going to post it here without PIF expectations. It's just that reading the thread titles, the subforum has seemed to drift from its original intent. JMO. Carry on!

[brstevns]

Not sure I understand, does this make me a good guy or a bad guy?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You're a good guy, BR.

Bisleyfan41, you make some valid points, and I can see it from your perspective. Like I already said, if you just want to give something away it's a PIF and belongs in that section. If you need something and can't afford it, it belongs in the HH section. If you want something and can afford it you should post it in the S&S section as a WTB ad.

Again, one does have to be selective about who gets your item(s). A fellow with a low post count once asked for a SKS stock. I had a take off and sent it to him. Never even heard the magic words, and never saw him post again. Sometimes I think folks just drop into our forum to see how green the grass is. But you just can't know for certain. Life is full of risks, swindles,....... and rewards.

DG

[brstevns]

Thanks, Der Gebirgsjager I always try to be and you are one of the Good Guys

[bisleyfan41]

Not sure I understand, does this make me a good guy or a bad guy?

You're definitely a good guy. When you said you needed something, you posted your need along with the fact you couldn't afford to buy one, and a member helped out. Perfect! None of the threads I referred to indicated any financial trial as the reason for the need. They were just like "Hey I need xxxxx I can't find one anywhere. Anybody have one?" While this is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask the board, it doesn't seem appropriate to this area. I don't know you but from all indications, you are one of the good guys!

[bisleyfan41]

You're a good guy, BR.

Bisleyfan41, you make some valid points, and I can see it from your perspective. Like I already said, if you just want to give something away it's a PIF and belongs in that section. If you need something and can't afford it, it belongs in the HH section. If you want something and can afford it you should post it in the S&S section as a WTB ad.

Again, one does have to be selective about who gets your item(s). A fellow with a low post count once asked for a SKS stock. I had a take off and sent it to him. Never even heard the magic words, and never saw him post again. Sometimes I think folks just drop into our forum to see how green the grass is. But you just can't know for certain. Life is full of risks, swindles,....... and rewards.

DG

Thank you for your response. I understand what you're saying. If the bolded part of your response is accurate, there are quite a few threads here that need to be moved to the S&S section as they are basically WTB posts. Here is why I'm asking for clarification.

From the header:

Forum: Helping Hands
1. I am giving it away to someone that needs or wants what I am giving away. 2. "I'll take it" doesn't necessarily rule. The giver can "pass" on recipients calling "I'll take it!" 3. The person giving the item pays the shipping so the item is always worth the shipping. 4. The person receiving the gift is not obligated to give anything.

And from 45nut's post:

The goal.
The new area is intended to help those that really can use the help in these dire economic times, if you have duplicates, triplicates and such of an item that you feel would be appreciated by someone that simply could not afford it then you can offer it up, or even nominate someone for help if you see a true need and cannot provide it yourself, then put out a call.

Both of these things seem to indicate that the threads in this section should be from somebody giving something away, not looking for something. The reason I'm asking is the stuff I'm giving away, I don't want somebody who needs it to HAVE to offer up a PIF. Some likely don't have much to PIF with anyway. Can I post them in this section? Like I have a duplicate of one of the current loading manuals. If a new loader without the means needs a manual, I want them to just have it without having to give something of theirs away.

Please don't take any of my posts wrong. I'm not trying to offend or annoy you, the other posters in this thread, or the authors of the threads I'm referring to. And I'm thankful for the responses here. I'm just trying to get clarity. I love this site, it is one of 3 that I visit every single day. There is such a wealth of knowledge here and I can't begin to quantify how much I've learned here. I've been on the bottom of the poor bracket, so I'd love to help someone in those same shoes. Also not too worried about the "not truly needy" swooping in to claim stuff. They'd have to answer to somebody way more important than me one day.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Understood, as to thoughts and wishes. Well, although I've done my best to explain it clearly, it can still be somewhat foggy and murky. If you want to give something away, no one is going to complain where you do it. There is no way that I know of to weed out the greedy and undeserving. In fact, although you are not the first to bring up this subject, it hasn't been brought up in quite a while. Since you desire to be the giver, offer to give it where you will.

DG

[Big Tom]

For me personally, I intend to give something away to help somebody having a better day. If that is to satisfy their greed, their collecting "sickness" or if they make a Million Dollars a year, I do not really care. If it improves their day, I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish.

[Graybeard96]

How many people claim an item in PIF and never post something in return? I guess right now I'm one of them since I have some brass coming and haven't posted in return yet.

I don't know what the name Der Gebirgsjager means, but that's about the best answer.

Der Gebirgsjaeger means: The Mountain Hunter (Der = The) (Gebirgs = Mountains) (Jaeger= Hunter).

Best to stick with english which is a hell of a lot less complicated !

Thank's

[BrassMagnet]

I guess I really ought to post in this thread!

Here are quotes from various places in this sub-forum:


From the header:

Forum: Helping Hands
1. I am giving it away to someone that needs or wants what I am giving away. 2. "I'll take it" doesn't necessarily rule. The giver can "pass" on recipients calling "I'll take it!" 3. The person giving the item pays the shipping so the item is always worth the shipping. 4. The person receiving the gift is not obligated to give anything.

And from 45nut's post:

The goal.
The new area is intended to help those that really can use the help in these dire economic times, if you have duplicates, triplicates and such of an item that you feel would be appreciated by someone that simply could not afford it then you can offer it up, or even nominate someone for help if you see a true need and cannot provide it yourself, then put out a call.



I am the original writer of those four rules and I went to 45Nut and asked to create this sub-forum. 45Nut came up with a wonderful name for this sub-forum.

Although the rules and goal for this sub-forum do not specifically address requests based on supply chain issues, I am not opposed to members, even new members, requesting help locating scarce items because they can not find a place to buy them. The Helping Hand for this can be suggesting a source or even just arranging to send the item. It can even be a suggested alternate procedure which doesn't require that specific item.