The British Are Tumbling! [Archive]

rtyler8140

07-07-2021, 10:47 PM

So I picked up a Lee Enfield No 4 Mk1* 2 groove awhile ago. Bore is bright and shiney and it is overall in very good shape. I have been struggling to get it to shoot cast. I am using water dropped coww for my alloy and powder coating the boolits. I started with the Lee 312-185 sized to .314 and they tumbled. Took a step backwards and ran about 40 rounds of factory ammo and the thing is a tack driver. So I knew at this point it is a very capable rifle. Decided to bump the 312-185 up to .316, still tumbled. For those tests I was using loads of 10g Unique and 13g of red dot since they both have seemed to shoot well in any 30 cal I've used. I did some research and digging and got my hands on a Lyman 314299. Was lucky and got one that drops .315 as cast. I add a gas check with my .314 sizer then add 2 coats of PC to get it up to .318. These loads showed some real promise and did not tumble. My best groups came from a load of 12g of unique and another load of 17g of 2400 (picture of this group below). Before I got my hands on the Lyman mold, I ordered a mold from arsenal (311-176 LFN) and had them bump it up to .315. It's a beautiful mold, but they accidentally made it a plain base instead of a gas check. I didn't discover this until I had started casting with it. Since I already had some cast, I figure I would powder coat and load some up. I did 3 loads of Unique (11g,12g,13g) and 2 loads of 2400 (16g,17g). To my surprise, I had quite a few tumble and keyhole (picture below). I could use some help understanding why the arsenal boolits tumbled and the Lyman did not? I don't have a chrono, but based on load data, the arsenal were probably going a little slower. Have a picture below of the 2 boolits side by side. Any input or thoughts would be appreciated!

https://i.ibb.co/khpX6Zt/Screenshot-20210707-164841-2.png (https://ibb.co/4jcpgkH)
https://i.ibb.co/WnfTZ18/PXL-20210708-020916832.jpg (https://ibb.co/D4Qqhnc)
https://i.ibb.co/2M6tMtP/PXL-20210708-020929773.jpg (https://ibb.co/HP2zPzY)

samari46

07-08-2021, 12:05 AM

Could be that you are not pushing them fast enough. Next time at the range see if someone has a chronograph and let them send some round down range and get some velocity readings. I shoot the 314299 in a Finn M27 and estimate that they are going about 1600-1700 feet per second. Powder charge is 20.0 grains IMR 4759 which is no longer made. I've seen that exact powder charge used in 30-06 rifles as well. That and suggest that you slug the barrel and see what the groove and land dimensions are. Frank

LAGS

07-08-2021, 01:07 AM

I have a Long Branch #4 that I shoot with the 314-299 Boolits.
I found that I have to cast them out of harder lead and around 1800 fps or they tumble.
People have told me that the two groove barrel is more perticular when shooting cast boolits

405grain

07-08-2021, 06:25 AM

I don't own a Lee Enfield, but have heard from friends that have had tumbling issues with the 314299 boolit. Usually their problem stemmed from too low a velocity to get the longer boolit to stabilize. The 48th Lyman reloading handbook lists loads for the 314299 using 2400: the starting load is 15.5 grains at 1404 fps. The max listed load is 20.0 grains at 1713fps. Your 17.0 grain charge might not be fast enough. This may become a problem with a plain based bullet, as that may restrict you to a velocity range which will not stabilize. The only way to find out is to experiment. You could also try lowering the velocity by using small charges of pistol powder. Going slower is counterintuitive, but if the bullets are already tumbling there's not a whole lot to loose by checking it out. (stranger things have happened)

robertbank

07-08-2021, 07:32 AM

I found 20 gr of 2400 avg vel 1777 or 22 gr of 4227 avg vel 1707 gave me excellent accuracy out of my 5 groove Longbranch using 314299 bullets. I mounted a scope on my gun and managed groups inside of 1.5" at 100 yards off a bench using ither of those two loads. For my rifle 1700 - 1775 seems ro b the sweet spot using those two powders.

For comparison the Canadian Military round loaded by IVI Industries using 174 gr FMJ ran 2378 fps over my Chrony out of the same gun.

Take Care

Bob

beemer

07-08-2021, 08:07 AM

In my experience a 2 groove is a little harder with cast than a 5 groove. The grooves are deep and the lands are wide. The deep grooves to allow for jacket displacement. When the wide lands squeeze it down metal has to go somewhere or just get longer. Slug your barrel and see what it measures. My 2 groove never shot as well as the 5 but never wild nor did it tumble. As for jacketed one is about as good as the other.

The 314299 is a bore rider, is the nose snug in the bore ? The driving bands are short, maybe a good thing because there is less to displace. Could also be velocity as stated above. The first thing I would do is shoot the biggest bullet I had and drive it a little faster.

I can't say any of the above is the answer, just something else to think about.

Dave

rtyler8140

07-08-2021, 09:50 AM

robertbank

07-08-2021, 10:02 AM

Thank you for all the responses. I apologize as my ramblings must have caused some confusion. The Lyman 314299 sized to .318 is shooting fantastic in the Enfield. My problem is the Arsenal 311-176 is the one that is tumbling even when sized to .318. for plinking I plan on just using the 314299, but was hoping to develop a load with the 311-176 LFN to use for hunting based on the nice fat nose. Would love to get my hands on the NOE 316-213 HP mold and use the cup points, but he's been sold out of it for months.

What does 311-176 drop out of the mold at? Does the .318 sizing die size down the bullet or barely touch the sides? I have shot plain based bullets in my 30-30 and .303 Brit water quenched WW alloy to 1700 fps without GC's and no leading or other discernable issues.

Take Care

Bob

rtyler8140

07-08-2021, 10:07 AM

What does 311-176 drop out of the mold at? Does the .318 sizing die size down the bullet or barely touch the sides? I have shot plain based bullets in my 30-30 and .303 Brit water quenched WW alloy to 1700 fps without GC's and no leading or other discernable issues.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

It drops from the mold at .315 and with powder coat it is right at .318. I don't have a .318 sizing die yet. I bought a .314 to open up to .318, just haven't done it yet.

robertbank

07-08-2021, 10:22 AM

Bob,

It drops from the mold at .315 and with powder coat it is right at .318. I don't have a .318 sizing die yet. I bought a .314 to open up to .318, just haven't done it yet.

I am thinking your bullets are just not getting enough grasp on the rifling ie they are not sized large enough. That might account for the tumbling. I would feel better if the bullets were dropping out of the mold at .318 + and aftr powder coating the bullets sized down to 318. Right now you are depending on your PC to get to the .318 diameter you seek.

Take Care

Bob

rtyler8140

07-08-2021, 10:26 AM

I am thinking your bullets are just not getting enough grasp on the rifling ie they are not sized large enough. That might account for the tumbling. I would feel better if the bullets were dropping out of the mold at .318 + and aftr powder coating the bullets sized down to 318. Right now you are depending on your PC to get to the .318 diameter you seek.

Take Care

Bob

I would think the same thing, but the 314299 drops at .315 and I use PC to get it up to .318. Could the gas check be making the difference?

robertbank

07-08-2021, 10:35 AM

I would think the same thing, but the 314299 drops at .315 and I use PC to get it up to .318. Could the gas check be making the difference?

Not likely. I think your issues are with the size of your bullet. The two bullets you are using are completely different. One is a bore rider while the other is not. Do all the 311... bullets tumble?

Take Care

Bob

Dusty Bannister

07-08-2021, 12:06 PM

rtyler8140

07-08-2021, 12:44 PM

Not likely. I think your issues are with the size of your bullet. The two bullets you are using are completely different. One is a bore rider while the other is not. Do all the 311... bullets tumble?

Take Care

Bob

It looks like the vast majority tumbled. Had a few that made a nice hole in the paper, but could have been dumb luck.

rtyler8140

07-08-2021, 12:57 PM

Sounds like you could use an over sized slug to verify the minimum diameter necessary to seal the groove diameter of the bullet. Then you know what to work for. Given the unusually large groove diameter, you may want to consider going to a larger caliber and sizing down, then powder coat and size to exactly what you need. Since you are going to powder coat, the lube grooves are not all that necessary except as a place for the lead to move to when it enters the barrel.

MOLD DC C324-175-1R
MOLD DC C324-175-1R
Details
SKU 90274
Weight 0.96 lbs
MSRP: $29.98
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Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a .324 diameter 175 grain round nose bullet suitable for cartridges like 8MM.

Not an ideal solution, but a lot cheaper than a custom mold.

Thanks for the PM you sent me, I'll address some of those questions/points in here. I'm not sure if the bore has been lapped. When I got it, it was covered in cosmoline and had been purchased by a gentlemen's back in the 80s through century arms I believe. I think it just lived in his safe. I ran a slightly flattened .311 RB through the barrel. Looks like the dimensions are .304/.315. I had thought about trying the .324, but already having the 314299 working well, I'm looking for more of a flat nose boolit for hunting. I had wondered too about gas cutting being an issue which is why I ordered the mold as a gas check. I guess experimenting with it whenever it arrives will let me know. At this point, I don't think I have run into much leading. Maybe a little, but nothing significant. I think Bob's point about a bore rider versus a non bore rider might be the cause of tumble versus no tumble.

robertbank

07-08-2021, 01:31 PM

rtyler8140- If most are tumbling then I am virtually certain the bullets are undersized for the bore. I have had a similar situation with one of my 9MM pistols. Unless your bullets can bite into the rifling and take a spin if you will they will tumble. By all means slug your bore. If you are unsure of yourself take the gun to a gunsmith and have him do it. Ig your 314299 bullet is accurate go with it. If you must have a flat nosed bullet and you can't find what you want in a Commercial mold get one made. Make sure it will drop a bullet a couple thousandths over your bore. Powder coat then size the bullet .001 over your slugged bore information and drill holes neatly into paper of game.

As an aside the 314299 bullet will kill anything walking in the Continental US. The old .303 Brit has killed more game world wide than any other cartridge for certain. It also has done a decent job on two leggeds as well if events in the 19th and 20th century are any criteria.

Take Care

Bob

NorthMoccasin

08-26-2021, 03:02 PM

A Forster Hollow Point kit will convert the 314299 into a devastating deer killer. no need for a new FP mould. They make the hollow pointer for use in the Forster trimmer or in a drill press. Works for any caliber.

Riverside

08-26-2021, 03:44 PM

try the Greenhill formula to see what bullet length is best for your rifle's twist.

longbow

08-26-2021, 06:57 PM

My understanding is that the 2 groove rifles tend to have very large groove diameters. Are you sure it slugged to 0.315"? My 5 groove rifles all run around 0.314" groove and a 0.315"/0.316" boolit shoots well from all of them.

You might take a read through this:

https://303british.com/cast-bullets-in-the-lee-enfield-rifle/

I am a believer in fillers when used appropriately. David Southall says he couldn't get decent accuracy with a cast boolit in a two groove without filler. Follow his directions and give it a try.

Also, something I found using cast boolits in my Lee Enfields was that if I pushed velocity at all I got skidding in the rifling using ACWW. Recovered boolits showed wider grooves than lands on the boolits and there was gas cutting in the wider grooves. By oven heat treating to harden the boolits that problem went away. Shouldn't be an issue with mild loads and mine weren't hot but maybe at the upper end of moderate. My take is that with such a short groove diameter bearing surface for the length and weight of boolit in a relatively fast twist the lead was shearing a bit. Harder boolits solved that. These were NOE 316299's with gas checks.

Longbow

Driver man

08-26-2021, 07:19 PM

I think you have several problems one of which you have corrected by using oversize boolits. I think your main problem is an oversize leade causing the boolit to sit incorrectly aligned. An oversize boolit helps take up the slack and centre the boolit better and the Lyman bore rider being longer allows the boolit to centre on the bore. I think I would seat the boolit out as far as can be practically done and see the results. I have several SMLE and shoot subsonic and 1800 fps with 150grain up to 220 grain. One rifle tumbles if boolits are seated normally and shoot accurately once seated out to engage the lands. This rifle also has quite a large case mouth on fired brass . I have tried reloading unsized cases with paperwrapped boolits that are a tight fit to the case with light loads with very good and accurate results.

rtyler8140

08-26-2021, 09:20 PM

So I ended up picking up a 316299 from NOE. Loaded it up with 17g of 2400 and it didn't shoot as well as I had hoped. I decided to try a few different things based on some pointers here & some info from 303guy. I have several different loads ranging from paper patched, fillers, slower powder, higher velocity, etc. Hoping to get out to the range this weekend. I will report back with some results. Fingers crossed I find some good loads. Thanks for all the input, I appreciate the tribal knowledge.

john.k

08-27-2021, 04:22 AM

rtyler8140

08-27-2021, 01:48 PM

i didnt have tumbling ,but ocassional flyers ,and generally poor accuracy......IMHO ,the 299 has a long nose that collapses lopsided unless a hard alloy is used ......I have found better results with the Lee 185 shape.

I did try the Lee 185 boolit. Lapped the mold out to .315 and I believe that one tumbled as well. May need to revisit that one again.

Outpost75

08-27-2021, 10:20 PM

I used the CBE 240-grain bullet with great success in my 2 - groove Long Branch, and also NOE #316299 plainbased with 11 grains of #2400 or 16 grains IMR4227. SOFT, FAT bullets are the answer.

Jack Stanley

08-28-2021, 09:18 AM

The tumbling problem with my number one was fixed by sending a throat impression and case to Veral Smith at LBT . I got a double cavity mold that made bullets that came out of the mold at .320" and bore ride of .308" .

The crazy thing is , they fit six different rifles I had From a Winchester model patterned after the M1917 up to a number four MKII . That bullet never tumbled with sizing ranging from .316" to .318". It's almost as though the rifles wanted the casings fit to the chamber as well as bullets to fit the throat .

Jack

screwcutter

08-31-2021, 07:26 PM

I’d look at loading procedures, using standard dies don’t work out well. I’ve went to using Lee collet dies & NOE expanders to load oversized projectiles. NOE 316299 has done fine for me with 2 and 5 groove barrels on 200 meter rams.

longbow

08-31-2021, 07:54 PM

Something else occurred to me... Well, two things:

- You are probably aware that most Lee Enfield chambers are very large so full length sizing brass is pretty hard on it and full length sized cartridges have a lot of clearance around them in the chamber. In my case the shoulder moves forward a lot... looks like about 1/16" though is probably not that much. I started neck sizing only to minimize these issues.

-I had trouble with my RCBS dies sizing the neck to the very optimistic size of 0.311"/0.312" to suit factory bullet diameters. My groove diameter is 0.315" in 3 of 4 Lee Enfields so the tight necks were sizing down ACWW boolits when I seated them resulting in undersize driving bands. Regular annealing helps reduce this sizing at seating as would heat treated boolits. I made a larger expander button to reduce the neck tension on 0.316" boolits. This immediately improved accuracy. But again the brass is being worked a lot so I bought a Lee Collet sizer and made a mandrel to give me 0.313" inside the neck after sizing so reducing working of brass and sizing of boolits by tight necks.

Both of the above helped with accuracy issues.

Longbow

rtyler8140

08-31-2021, 10:57 PM

So I was able to get back out to the range this past weekend. Had 7 different load configurations to try. I was not overly impressed with any of them and blame myself for this. I had 4 paper patched loads, 2 powder coated with filler and 1 powder coated with no filler. I had 2 different boolit profiles. Only 4 had the same powder/charge. I feel my loads had too many variables to get consistent data to provide constructive feedback. All that to say, a day at the range is still better than a day at work. I agree with the two statements above that full length sizing is squishing the neck and body down pretty far from the chamber tolerance. It's not as bad as my mosin, but still not ideal. I measured the ID of the case neck of one of my 303 cases and it's about .319. Back to the drawing board and this time with a little more focus as to not repeat my last outing. Again, I appreciate all the feedback!

Driver man

09-01-2021, 02:18 AM

Did you try seating the bullet closer to the lands?

Jack Stanley

09-01-2021, 09:28 AM

Another thought , Redding makes a die that uses interchangable collars . I think it's a form of neck sizing but it allows you to control neck tension as well by changing the collar . If you're stuck with just a full length size die at least back it out so it doesn't touch the neck .

If the throat is toast a bullet with a longer bearing surface will likely help , it did for mine .

Read Longbows post again ... treasure right there I tell ya .

Jack

KCSO

09-01-2021, 09:49 AM

Try COW filler over the powder, I had a oversize bore on one of mine and couldn't get the bullets sized right but the filler fixed the problem Other wise i would cast and size to 317 if necessary, I have cast 322 bullets and sized them down in steps.

rtyler8140

09-01-2021, 12:51 PM

So below is a chart of the loads I tried last weekend. All except load #6 & #8 were all over the place. Load #8 is what I have experienced good results with in the past. If you'll noticed, the case neck ID after firing is indeed pretty large. After full length sizing, neck ID is .311. I am going to look into either a collet die or the NOE neck sizers. I will say, I did find it interesting that load #6 actually grouped (not great, but smaller than a shotgun pattern) and did not tumble. These were the boolits that have always tumbled. Was it the velocity or the paper patch that helped them out? If you look at the chart you will see they were sized to .3165 after paper patching. The arsenal boolits are seated as long as possible to allow the bolt to still close without a monumental effort. I will have to check the length of the NOE again. It's possible I was just using the suggested oal from the Lyman Cast book for the 314299 boolit. So now the question is: where do I go from here? I'm thinking I may try 3 different boolits (NOE 316213, Arsenal 315178, and Lee 312-185) powder coated and sized to .3165 with H335 in the 2000-2200 fps range and see what happens. I'll need to get either the collet die or NOE expander prior to loading in hopes that will help some. All 3 of these boolits will be water quenched wheel weights.

https://i.ibb.co/ZKvJFR8/303-Data.jpg (https://ibb.co/mtdB2rq)