Too Fast, Too Soft?

[ChristopherO]

I have little experience with PC and am looking for your thoughts on the testing done lately with a 35 caliber and powder coated 190 grain boolits. I was sent by a generous gentleman a number of these NOE 182 360 FNGC that had a good coating of PC applied.
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He also sent along an assortment of other PC boolits to test that are PC'd as well, such as the Ranchdog 190 FNGC. These fly pretty well with a load of old Hercules 2400, dacron, CCI300 LP primers at an average of 2,060 FPS. From his memory these were cast out of AC CWW. They seem hard to the fingernail, but there is a coat of paint baked on. They mushroom in water jugs quite nicely, though:
285402

The problem is that it is apparent that the PC is wearing off on the bearing surface of the boolit on the recovered slugs. Plus, with the Ranchdog projectiles there is a ring of blue paint at the mouth of case upon firing. (The green paint on the NOE boolits don't do this, but the shanks of both styles are devoid of powder coating when found in the water jugs; 60 and 100 yards)
285403

I use a Lyman M die to open the case mouths before loading. All boolits are .360 in diameter, or less, as run through my sizing die.

Am I pushing this alloy too fast for the hardness? I love the mushroom effect but... There is a wash of lead in the barrel but no large deposits.

[charlie b]

If you have any lead in the barrel something is wrong. Almost sounds like the PC was not cured correctly. Do a smash test to see if the PC flakes off. The bullets I recover still have almost full PC on the bullet, including in the land and groove area.

Bottom line is, if they shoot well and don't mess up your barrel, then keep using them.

PS Are you sure that is a wash of lead in the barrel? Mine will leave a greyish color fouling on the barrel that comes out with a solvent patch.

[popper]

Not totally cured. Cook again. Are you sure they are PC and not just paint?

[ChristopherO]

285404
Taking charle b's advice I pulled out the framing hammer. I believe this smash test shows the PC sticks on pretty well. Yes, it is a baked on paint and shows signs of being part of large batch that may not have been stood up but baked in a pile. Not sure, just looks like that might be the case. I've PC before but and can recognize it, but as mentioned earlier, I am wondering if I am running these too hot for the softness of the boolit. No, I don't have a harness tester. Need to pick up a packet of artist pencils sometime.

A better picture of the shank that has no PC on it after firing and being caught in 4 water jugs at 100 yards
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Here is a photo of one of the 'Rings' that are around the case mouth upon firing
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[mehavey]

Agree.
● Insufficient curing/"Bad" powder.
.... and ....
● Insufficient mouth flare

I'm running an Eastwood/Ford PC'd 330gr Gould
-- Pure Lead and Plain Base --
at near 1,900fps with zero ill effects.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?409893-Pure-Lead-amp-PC&p=5001471&viewfull=1#post5001471

[Conditor22]

Pull a seated boolit of each color and see what they look like.

The blue is the most suspect of the colors

[white eagle]

are the boolits sized to the bore of the rifle being used
the lead ring appears to be a sizing issue
the lead wash is a no concern

[Agent1187]

I'm following this with great interest, as I too have a 358 Win that leaves a nice little PC ring after most shots.

It's hard for me to tell, but looking at your mushroomed round stripped of coating - it appears to have shallow rifling grooves, but also none of the TL grooves are visible.

I'm curious as to whether:
A) Your chamber throat is stripping off the coating - though I'd imagine you'd find a lot more shavings.
B) 0.360 is much larger than the bore, and the boolit is swaging down too much.
C) The alloy is soft enough to fully obturbate, but the bore is really rough and abrades the PC off.

I do think that the ring of PC after firing is just a byproduct of the crimp.

[ChristopherO]

I'll try to answer these questions adequately:

I've used an inertia bullet puller on a couple of the loaded rounds and the PC is still intact. The flair is enough to allow the boolits to seat in without any shaving of PC or lead.

The crimp was put on by the Lee Factory Crimp Die, and only enough to take any flare out of the case mouth. They were not seated into the crimp grove tight, intentionally.

These have been sized, by me, at .360". My bore is .3585". All the years of sizing lead boolits .001 or more larger than the barrel dimensions is why I have the .360 sizer.

Yes, there was lead wash, but I cleaned the barrel again last night and noted there were small lead flakes on the tight patches. Cleaned until no more flakes were present. Barrel is much cleaner but there are still lead streaks visible at the muzzle end. Of all the bristle brushes I have no 35 caliber is in inventory to scrub that out at present.

As for the chamber throat: Yes, I am noticing that a chambered round that is removed unfired can show where one portion of the driving band has PC scrapped off. Not all do this, but a fair portion has now that I know this happens upon locking the bold down. (The dummy rounds initially used to test chambering did not do that, but quite of few of the loaded rounds do)

The bore is quite smooth. I've had semi smooth and rough bores on other rifles and this, thankfully, is not one of those.

On the Ranchdog boolit the tumble lube grooves show up well under the PC before firing. Their marks show after firing but they are pretty much smoothed over. The rifling marks are not deep but are clean and defined.

As noted on the original posting, I did not cast nor PC these boolits. A fine gentleman graciously gifted these to see if what he has works for my purposes. I'm sold on the design and weight of the NOE and Ranchdogs, but need to find out what to do that allows the velocity I am looking for that keeps leading at bay.

My guess at this stage is that .360 is good for lubed lead boolits but may be too large for PC'd boolits. It may be that .359 would be a better option for these coated projectiles.
Then again, the 358318 250 grain RNGC boolits that are lubed with White Label 2500+ and Ben's Liquid Lube also leaves lead streaks in the bore at 1,920 fps. This is a 1/16" twist barrel, not too fast, one would think.
I appreciate all the advice and suggestions you have provided and am open to hear your continued thoughts.

Christophero

[charlie b]

Sounds like what happens in my 9mm pistol. The edge of the chamber/rifling shaves the PC and leaves bare lead to go down the barrel. I think I'd try a smaller size die and see what happens.

[Forrest r]

That or use a tight patch with jb bore paste and polish the rough area of the leade in the throat.

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e80csy8H6V2v-_x7n0MhOaiDVUCUxKysk-3nyp_TFflNljOm0r5w2CAr8XkgYky8HH9a6XrxaYAyFE09QfcD sjdfxoTQFY2wK30j3oJoJ7QixU2F2KE4LTyeAKM93caSbprL_K IvuTqsf3ZtPmosNJweLXuSr7YK0NfI4lHmyXiIJfjbvKlyYgZ7 ui54Z8rA-qLjmU7g&u=aHR0cHMlM2ElMmYlMmZjbGljay5jYXJ0YWdlb3VzLmNvbSUy ZiUzZmZjdCUzZHRydWUlMjZwc2lkJTNkNjk5MCUyNmF1dGglM2 RNMHc2QiUyNmt3JTNkJTI2cGFzc2JhY2slM2RodHRwJTI1M0El MjUyRiUyNTJGY2FydGFnZW91cy5jb20lMjUyRiUyNTNGdXRtX3 NvdXJjZSUyNTNEbWljcm9zb2Z0X3VzX2Nvbm5leGl0eV91c19w bGElMjUyNnV0bV9tZWRpdW0lMjUzRGNwYyUyNTI2dXRtX2Nvbn RlbnQlMjUzRENPTk5FWElUWV9jYXJ0YWdlb3VzLmNvbV91cyUy NTI2dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduJTI1M0RDT05ORVhJVFlfdXNfcGxhJT I2bmwlM2R0cnVlJTI2bmV0JTNkYiUyNmZfcHJvZF9pZCUzZDIz NjAwMzI4ODUlMjZzdWJpZCUzZDM5NTQ1MTU5MSU3YzExNjMyOD QwNTYwNzI3MTIlN2NwbGEtNDU3NjMwNDg1MzQ4MTU2MSU3Y28l N2NjJTdjNzI3MDU0MDk4NTI4NDglN2NwbGEtNDU3NjMwNDg1Mz Q4MTU2MSU3Y28lN2NvJTI2bXNjbGtpZCUzZDM4NDJiOTc5ZDEy MDEyNjVhMWU3ZDk5OWNjYzIzOWQ5&rlid=3842b979d1201265a1e7d999ccc239d9

A bbl throat that has rough spots is never a good thing for any cast or cast/coated bullet.

Do a search of lead rings on this website. There has been several threads about what causes it and what to do to stop them.

You might consider measuring the body of the lyman m-die and going to the neo website and looking up how big their custom expanders are that they make for the lee universal expander die.

FWIW:
Years ago I was looking for a alloy for hunting bullets to use in a 308w. I'd make a batch of alloy and cast test bullets with it using several different molds. Here are the recovered bullets
https://i.imgur.com/9TAAbA8.jpg
The 1700fps alloy was terrible, it shattered in the 110yd berm (1700fps at muzzle)
Lowered the antimony and upped the velocity & the 1900fps alloy failed
Lowered the antimony and upped the velocity again, 2100fpa alloy ='s no love
Lowered the antimony and upped the tin for the 2300fps load. That bullet was the long nosed lee 230gr bo bullet with a 50,000psi load.

[ChristopherO]

Forrest r,
"That or use a tight patch with jb bore paste and polish the rough area of the leade in the throat.

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e80csy8...e7d999ccc239d9

A bbl throat that has rough spots is never a good thing for any cast or cast/coated bullet.

Do a search of lead rings on this website. There has been several threads about what causes it and what to do to stop them."

Good points. I'll look into those two ideas soon. Your Photo shows the PC stayed on the surface exceptionally well. That is what I am working for. Tried some plain base boolits last night with much success, at slower velocities, yet still there were signs of the PC being rubbed off, especially on the lands of the rifling. Whereas your examples have the paint on all areas of the shank. Well done.

[Forrest r]

Forrest r,
"That or use a tight patch with jb bore paste and polish the rough area of the leade in the throat.

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e80csy8...e7d999ccc239d9

A bbl throat that has rough spots is never a good thing for any cast or cast/coated bullet.

Do a search of lead rings on this website. There has been several threads about what causes it and what to do to stop them."

Good points. I'll look into those two ideas soon. Your Photo shows the PC stayed on the surface exceptionally well. That is what I am working for. Tried some plain base boolits last night with much success, at slower velocities, yet still there were signs of the PC being rubbed off, especially on the lands of the rifling. Whereas your examples have the paint on all areas of the shank. Well done.

Part of the entertainment, You'll get everything dialed in and accumulate a bunch of knowledge along the way.