Do I need a FFL to ship a 1873 winchester?

[Tripplebeards]

I'm guessing not? I placed the 1873 Winchester I picked up a few months back on one of my group buys on GB. Figured it would cost an arm and a leg to restore and the receiver was cut out for a rear peep so imo I could never make it perfect. I decided to part with it and use the funds for another project. So with it being black powder and old can I ship it with out needing FFL paperwork from who ever ends up buying it?

[Texas by God]

If yours was made before 1898 an ffl is not necessary ( if I savvy the law correctly).

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

https://empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

[Beaver Scout]

You don't need an FFL to ship to an FFL for a sale, no matter when it was made. If it was made pre-1899 then you don't have to even ship to an FFL, you can ship directly to the buyer bypassing the 4473 form.

[MrWolf]

You don't need an FFL to ship to an FFL for a sale, no matter when it was made. If it was made pre-1899 then you don't have to even ship to an FFL, you can ship directly to the buyer bypassing the 4473 form.

Not exactly. There are states such as New Jersey where that would be illegal. Check the regs where you may be shipping it to. Good luck. I copied the following from a muzzle loader site (plus I lived there for 57 years):

Which states will you ship to?
We ship directly to customer's doors throughout the United States, except for customers in New Jersey, Illinois, Washington D.C. & New York City, as well as all pistol orders within New York State and Massachusetts. In these jurisdictions, the law requires muzzleloaders to be shipped to a licensed FFL dealer, which we are happy to help arrange for your convenience. As a disclaimer, please check your local ordinances and statutes to ensure compliance with all laws.

[Battis]

It gets tricky in the Communist States - I live in MA and a few years ago I bought a cap and ball revolver on GB. After the sale, after I paid, the seller would only ship the gun to an FFL. There was no reasoning with the moron, despite the fact that he didn't list the FFL requirement in the original ad. Instead of dealing with GB, and since the seller had my money, I gave them my FFL info. The FFL even called them and said it wasn't necessary but it didn't matter. So, it cost me an extra $25.00.
I buy alot of antique guns in Maine. If the rifle (or handgun) uses self contained cartridges, they'll do a background check, even on antiques. Their store, their rules.
In the antique gun definition, it states "...any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Interpreting that ammo definition also makes it tricky,

[Drm50]

Check your state laws. I know some states require shipping go through FFLs. In general Guns made before 1899 are exempt from registration. Don’t take online experts advice, look it up.

[pietro]

Not exactly.

There are states such as New Jersey where that would be illegal.

Check the regs where you may be shipping it to. Good luck.


Totally unnecessary - Simply state in your ad:

"Buyer should ascertain that they can receive this gun per their state's regulations prior to offering to purchase/possess"


It is incumbent upon the BUYER, and not the seller, to ascertain if they can buy/possess whatever.


.

[HATCH]

It is incumbent upon the BUYER, and not the seller, to ascertain if they can buy/possess whatever.



Exactly. I have shipped guns to FFL holders in California that I knew weren't on the DOJ list approved for use in California.
The buyer contact me a couple months later wanting to return the firearm because they couldn't get approval.
I accepted it back minus a 20% hassle fee.

Know YOUR gun laws. Don't worry about other peoples.
If the item is legal in your state (not including POT), then its not your problem if the receiver can't possess it on their end.

[Battis]

If that's the case, then why won't some of the Big Boys ship guns, components, ammo, etc to some states?

[MrWolf]

Totally unnecessary - Simply state in your ad:

"Buyer should ascertain that they can receive this gun per their state's regulations prior to offering to purchase/possess"


It is incumbent upon the BUYER, and not the seller, to ascertain if they can buy/possess whatever.


.

Wow. So warning him of a potential issue is totally unnecessary? Who is going to pay his legal fees if he ships a gun to a restricted state? The buyer? You? Sorry, I would rather know up front what my potential liabilities are, which is probably why he asked the question in the first place.

[HATCH]

If that's the case, then why won't some of the Big Boys ship guns, components, ammo, etc to some states?

They have a FFl
They are a business.

I am a individual. I only need to know the laws that effect me. Not the laws that effect you.

There is NO postal restriction that says I can’t mail a AK47 to California.
There is however a restriction from you possessing that item once it arrives.
FFL holders in this case hold the weapon until it is compliant with state/local regulations. Which means they may make modifications to the weapon.

[Battis]

The AG in my state has warned retailers not to ship to MA, even components. Many of them backed down. Why? What can they be afraid of? If it's legal to ship to MA, how can a lowly state AG go after them, and put fear in them? The AG could just as easily go after an individual who is not an FFL, but there's no optics in that.

[pietro]

Wow. So warning him of a potential issue is totally unnecessary?
Who is going to pay his legal fees if he ships a gun to a restricted state?
The buyer? You?
Sorry, I would rather know up front what my potential liabilities are, which is probably why he asked the question in the first place.


With all due respect, it's about being responsible....

The responsibility of a seller is to truthfully describe the item they have for sale, and to tranhsfer the item properly, following US Federal Laws regarding the transfer of the item.

There is no liability attached to the seller's side of the transfer.


The responsibility of a buyer is to promptly pay the seller for the item bought, period.

Any liability for the transfer falls upon the buyer if the transfer is unlawful at their end of the transfer.

If a buyer misrepresents the legality of their possession of said item, whether deliberately or in ignorance of the law, the onus for everything that happens after the transfer of the goods are on that buyer.

IMO (YMMV), in the case of fraudulent possession by a buyer, the seller need do nothing ( a deal is a deal- too bad, so sad).


.

[M-Tecs]

With all due respect, it's about being responsible....

The responsibility of a seller is to truthfully describe the item they have for sale, and to tranhsfer the item properly, following US Federal Laws regarding the transfer of the item.

There is no liability attached to the seller's side of the transfer.


The responsibility of a buyer is to promptly pay the seller for the item bought, period.

Any liability for the transfer falls upon the buyer if the transfer is unlawful at their end of the transfer.

If a buyer misrepresents the legality of their possession of said item, whether deliberately or in ignorance of the law, the onus for everything that happens after the transfer of the goods are on that buyer.

IMO (YMMV), in the case of fraudulent possession by a buyer, the seller need do nothing ( a deal is a deal- too bad, so sad).


.

Ignorance of the law is not a viable legal defense. Same for violating a state law by sending a prohibited item to that state when you are outside of that states border. For an individual the chances are low that the state will issue a warranty and or try to extradite the seller that is out of state unless it is a high profile case. Example if you send a hi cap mag to Cali. (before the current ruling) and it is used in a mass shooting they will come after you. With low profile cases you may have a warrant issued against you.

For a business continued violations of the states laws will result in the business loosing it ability to do business in that state.

[Geezer in NH]

They were made until the 1920's Some by law are modern firearms. Ship one of those made after 1898 or so and it will be a federal felony if it is not to an FFL of course it is considered a C&R and may ship to a holder of a C&R FFL because it is an FFL.

Be safe and date it by serial # then ship accordingly.

[2152hq]

It gets tricky in the Communist States - ...
I buy alot of antique guns in Maine. If the rifle (or handgun) uses self contained cartridges, they'll do a background check, even on antiques. Their store, their rules.
In the antique gun definition, it states "...any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Interpreting that ammo definition also makes it tricky,

Many FFL's want to do a 4473/Nics on ANY cartridge firearm regardless of caliber or age.
It's a CYA thing with them and it's their lic, their store, their rules as already said.
Some states don't follow the Fed definition of 'Antique' firearm, some do for a long gun but not for a hand gun (NYS). Some don't recognize C&R status.
Lots of State and Metro laws to deal with that upstage the Fed regs on Antique arms and their disposition, possession, ect.

The caliber thing (a cartridge arm being in a caliber not commercially available, ect....) is part of the NFA definition of Antique Firearm (different from Title 1 firearms,,regular rifles, shotguns and handguns).

Where the cartridge thing does come into play in the Fed reg in Title 1 firearms is in the definition of an Antique Status 'Reproduction' firearm.
IF the Modern mfg Repro of an Antique firearm (take a Henry Rifle for example) was made in the orig .44rf caliber, it would be considered an Antique Status (by Fed Regulation) Firearm.
That is as long as no one started mfr'g 44rf Henry ammunition. (Maybe they have,,I don't know.)
Those Henry rifle Repros in 44-40 or 45Colt can't get Antique status as they ARE chambered for a cart currently produced and available in normal trade.



An orig Henry is pre 1898. It is an Antique (Fed status) because of it's mfg'rd date. What caliber it now is or if ammo is now available or not means nothing.

A Parker 12ga SxS made in 1896 is an Antique Status firearm. Doesn't matter that it chambers and fires OTC 12ga ammo from Walmart.
If it left the factory as a 24ga (yes they made a few) and some one rebbl'd it to 20ga,,it's still an Antique Status firearm because of the Mfg date.

(C&R status firearms must keep their orig configuration and not be altered/customized or they lose that C&R status.
They still remain Title 1 firearms however and transfer on a 4473/NICS.)

The Win 73 would be judged Antique,, or not strictly by it's mfg'r date.
But then State and Metro laws would have to be abided by as well. These may make the Fed Antique Status completely irrelevant when transfering the gun.
Back to 'Every cartridge gun gets transfered on a 4473/NICS check by the FFL'.

[John Boy]

Triple beards … give your gunsmith the details and talk to him. Rely on Internet talk, there are too many variables

[Tripplebeards]

Looks like mine was produced in 1894. The first three of the serial number start with 446. So it does not need an FFL to transfer. Here is the link to my ad with the serial number…

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/904148662


Would have loved to restore it but the receiver has been notched out for a peep which imo I would never get it filled in properly. Probably the the only 1873 I’ll ever own. Between the receiver and the cost of replacement parts I figured I’d move it and invest into another project. Looks like I already have a bid with 5 days left. I’ll be curious how much it brings. I picked it up on a group buy so I basically have nothing into it.

[Battis]

and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
That clause does not mention reproduction firearms. We can all say that it means nothing, but the fact is, that definition exists, which means, push comes to shove, it could be used. How would a jury interpret that definition?
I ran into a problem with that definition twice when dealing with salespeople (2 different salespeople) selling an antique firearm. OK, call them stupid, or incompetent, or whatever, but the jury pool is made up of such people.
I'm not saying that an 1873 Winchester made prior to 1898 is not an antique, even if the ammo used is "currently manufactured and available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade", but...

[Finster101]

For the $25.00 - $35.00 it cost it sounds easier and safer to use an FFL and be done with it.

[Battis]

Exactly. Simple solution.

[MrWolf]

For those that have only heard of NJ's assine laws, it is a FELONY to have a slingshot in NJ, as is acquiring a bb gun, pellet gun, etc without a FOID Card. You cannot purchase an 80% and make a firearm in NJ as that is illegal also. I put up with those laws for 57 years and feel sorry for the folks still stuck there. Good luck Triplebeards, hopefully you will sell it to someone other than a NJ resident and all this would have been moot.

[2152hq]

That clause does not mention reproduction firearms. We can all say that it means nothing, but the fact is, that definition exists, which means, push comes to shove, it could be used. How would a jury interpret that definition?.....
...

The 'Antique Firearm' deffinition from the GCA68 certainly does mention 'Reproductions of Antique Firearms',,,well OK they use the word Replica instead of Reproduction.


If the REPRO is chambered for such a cartridge (unavailable/not in production), then that REPRO of the Antique Firearm is also classed as an Antique Firearm inspite of it's post 1899 mfg date (modern Mfg.)

Here it is,,all 4 lines of it.

Antique firearm.
(a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

https://atf-eregs.18f.gov/478-11/03-1657#478-11-p1739151166-d

It can't be much clearer.
(A) references orig mfg firearms,,,pre 1899 mfg are Antique
(B) references Reproductions of those original Antiques (A) and puts the cartridge availability clause in to say wether those Repros are considered Antique Status as well,,,or not.

[Battis]

No, it could be much clearer. With the current political climate, I would not ship a firearm to anyone except an FFL, unless it had a "primitive ignition": wheellock, flintlock, caplock, Goldilock, etc. If the buyer didn't want to pay the extra $25 for the transfer fee, so be it.
Do as you see fit, and so will I. Proving you're right can be expensive.

[ascast]

regardless of the law, where ever you may be, you might find a postal worker who makes up their own laws. I have run into these types several types. best of luck

[missionary5155]

That is the first 73 I have seen that the side plates and hammer were riveted onto the frame unless my 70+ eyeballs need calibration update.

[Hootmix]

There is " NO " way I would buy a gun like that ,,, but ,, if you had offered to sale it on here and I had seen it ,, " I WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE IT ", WHAT A GREAT PROJECT . ( would tell the wife it was a loaner ). Old or newer ,, I just do FFL , peace of mind.

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Tripplebeards]

That is the first 73 I have seen that the side plates and hammer were riveted onto the frame unless my 70+ eyeballs need calibration update.

Lol…me neither. Besides the plates riveted in someone cut out a notch in the receiver for a peep sight I’m guessing. I bought 7 guns, 40 plus pounds of powder, a couple thousands J word, reloading supplies, a bayonet, and a bunch of other goodies along with the 1873 all for $540 believe it or not. The thing I was most excited about was this 1873 till I started figuring out what it would take to restore it. My TV went out last week so the funds will be used for a new boob tube. Any left over will go towards??? Every time I see the notched out receiver I get an ulcer. I would have like to know what someone was thinking back in the day when they did all the “ fabrications” to it. Maybe it was some outlaw on the trail that couldn’t show his face in town at the time??? I never wanted to try to remove the side plates either since I didn’t have any screws or new side plates to replace them with if the holes were hogged out in them. I knew if I got started I’d be married to it.

[Hootmix]

Hey Tripp, ( not triying to hy-jack ), I love guns with character , but you are right , ya' get married to'um. You might be right , looks like he had to work on it by campfire light, if it could " talk ". Received a 45-60 barrel & receiver from a friend ,, made all the parts for it , ( Dremel's are only dangerous ,, when they are running ).

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[2152hq]

No, it could be much clearer. With the current political climate, I would not ship a firearm to anyone except an FFL, unless it had a "primitive ignition": wheellock, flintlock, caplock, Goldilock, etc. If the buyer didn't want to pay the extra $25 for the transfer fee, so be it.
Do as you see fit, and so will I. Proving you're right can be expensive.

Sure you can do anything you want. That has nothing to do with the issue..

You posted in this thread that the Antique Firearms definition in the 68GCA did not contain any reference to Reproduction firearms.
I challenged that statement and provided my proof of that.

That's all.
That's what conversations are about.

The definition in very clear IMO.
If it's not, in your opinion, contact the people that wrote it for a better explanation.
Or continue to shake your head in confusion & blame 'the current political climate' (did that make changes to the GCA68 ?).

I know many dealers do just what you do as a CYA. I don't blame them or think otherwise of their methods. Their business, their rules as they say.
Feel better doing business that way. No harm.

But don't claim that that is what the current Fed Regulations call for.
They don't.

Have a nice day.

[Battis]

I'm not shaking my head in confusion, and you're wrong if you don't consider the current political climate in regards to firearms, especially when dealing with gray areas of the law. And I see that ammo description as a gray area, that could be used against a citizen at some point. And, as I said, defending a position, even when you're right, can get expensive.
This sounds like a FB argument.

[2152hq]

It's not a gray area of the law. You simply stated that Repro firearms were not mentioned in the Antique Firearms definition.
I called you on it,,and showed you that you were incorrect..

That's all this is.
Laugh it off for Christs sake.
It's about as important as someone pointing out that you got dressed in the dark & put your T-shirt on inside out.

It is what it is,,the reg is perfectly clear.
If you want to go further than what it says you must do, then fine,,do that.
If you think the Secret Police hide behind every telephone pole, that's your opinion and are welcome to it.

The Fed Reg has been what it is for yrs now.
If you feel it's a gray area and are unsure about it, then err on the side of dazzling extra paper work, licenses, NICS checks, ect.
No real harm in doing that. Your gun,,your choice.

It doesn't change what the Fed Reg reads.,,and that's all I pointed out originally.
That was simply,,,that you were incorrect in your interpretation of it.
Yes it does include language regarding Reproductions of antique firerarms and how they may or may not also fall into the Antique status due to the ammunition they are chambered for and fire.
You said it didn't.
Tough to admit you were wrong?

Calm down, do what ever you want extra and above what's required and you'll sleep well at nite.
No Stasi Police sneaking up on you, no NY Lawyers to bankrupt you just to keep you out of Rikers.

Have a drink,,have a nice weekend,,buy some nice guns.
Nice country up near Medway, Millinocket.

Auf Wiedersehen,
Ich gehe jetzt

[Battis]

Wow. You didn't get my point, at all. Maybe a little reading comprehension class might help.
I'll speak slowly, with an example. You sell a rifle, say an antique 1873 Winchester, directly to a buyer in another state. Sure, it's an antique. OK. That buyer gets the rifle and goes to a store and buys ammo for it that's readily available (in normal times). Then he does something nefarious with it. He gets arrested, they trace the sale back to you; they ask you why did you sell a rifle to a person (convicted felon?) when there is ammo readily available. That is where the gray area of the ammo might come in. Sure, you can prove you did nothing wrong...maybe. But, it will cost you. Alot.
That's all I was saying. Which is why I'd go through an FFL.
Just wow.
I'm done.

[M-Tecs]

Per Federal law felons can own per 1899 firearms. Johnny Cash's 1873 Colt collection is an example. Lots of states do NOT allow felons to own pre-1899 firearms, muzzleloaders or air rifles.

https://empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

in response to numerous requests, here are the answers to the questions
that I most commonly get on pre-1899 firearms. The second half of this FAQ
posting lists serial number cut-offs for the 1899 threshold for many gun makers.

Q: What constitutes "antique" under U.S. law?

A: Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a receiver actually made before Jan.
1, 1899 is legally "antique." and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual
date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example,
only low serial number Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required
to buy or sell antiques across state lines-- they are in the same legal category as a muzzle-loading
replica. I regularly ship them right to people's doorstep via UPS, with no "paper trail." Think of it as
the last bastion of gun ownership privacy.

Q: I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern “firearms” if they are chambered to fire
ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct?

That is absolutely incorrect. ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or
other NFA category, such as a short-barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law.
There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers.
They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge
they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.)

Q: Does sporterizing or re-chambering an antique end its exemption?

A: Sporterizing, re-barreling, or re-chambering an antique gun does not effect its legal status. Thus, I
can legally sell folks Mauser sporters that have been converted to modern cartridges (like .308 Winchester!),
without having to go through the "FFL to FFL" hassle.

Q: Would an antique serial number range gun be worth more than an otherwise identical gun made just
a few years later?

A: Pre-1899 production guns now bring a 20 to 60% premium over identical condition guns made
AFTER 1898. Based on market trends, I expect that premium to increase considerably in the next few
years. Many of my customers are commenting that they previously had no interest in "antique" guns,
but now want one or more because they are paranoid about additional gun laws. For the time being at
least, pre-1899 are completely EXEMPT from all federal laws. Presumably, this would also mean that
they would be exempt from registration if they ever have nationwide gun registration.... Think about
the possibilities.


Q: But what if I find a pre-1899 gun at a gun shop that was mistakenly logged into the
dealer's "bound book" of post-1899 firearms? Won’t I have to fill out a Form 4473
(yellow form)?

A: No. All the dealer has to do is log the gun out as: "Inadvertent entry. Pre-1899
manufactured receiver. No FFL required." (If the dealer gives you any grief and insists on
the yellow form, a call to any ATF branch office will confirm this.)

[Finster101]

No matter the law. You are selling a firearm to someone you have never met. For a few bucks I would (and have) cover my butt.