Mixed headstamp loading??

[Vettepilot]

I'm guessing this might have been covered in the past, but I couldn't find an answer to my exact question, so here goes... apologies if it's a stupid question and/or has been thoroughly covered before.

So I just bought a batch of 308 range brass, and have sorted it by headstamp. I ended up with some Federal, PPU, Lake City, etc., in batches of 40 to 80 or more. No problem there; just work up a load for each headstamp.

But I also ended up with around 200 or so in assorted headstamps. Some I have 3 of, some 8, some 5, etc., etc. What is the best way to deal with those??

Hypothetical case:

Let's say you have Federal brass, and it averages (xx) internal water volume, and you work up a safe, yet fast load for it. Could you then safely take a brand "X" headstamped case, that measures the SAME internal volume, and load it the same as the Federal??

What are acceptable safe internal volume tolerances in 30 cal brass?

Thanks for any and all insights,
Vettepilot

[hoodat]

308 brass is plentiful enough that I'd simply obtain a batch of one brand and save myself the hassle.

You can always use the mixed stuff for lower level stuff, cast bullet plinkers and such. jd

[Minerat]

I've never sorted 308, except to load a set load in matching name cases. I never load to max anyway so don't worry about volumes.

The last load run by the labradar were mixed LC 7.62 & Federal .308 cases loaded 42.2 gr 4064 and a 165 g Vmax. Ave. Muzzle velocity 2530, SD 5.66 & extreme spread 11.73 accuracy 1.2" @ 100 yds out of a Mossberg model 800 cases did not seem to make a difference as the mv on first 3 was 2527 (1-FC, 1 LC66, 1LC87). I'll be interested to see what the consensus is on this, call me open minded on the subject.

[Harter66]

Having had the prima Donna rifle ........and her sister the tramp , I can say without a doubt that will work perfectly not at all .

I had a 110 Savage 06' that wanted match prep brass and .3 gr , 27 kernels of 4350 was the difference between 2690 and 2710 fps MV and a .690 and 1.55" group .
The sister in 308 was a garbage disposal and shot 2" within 4" of POH with whatever fell off the shelf with a bullet under 175 gr . Yes , yes it was a weight thing as I tried several 180 RN that were shorter than 150 BTSP and a lot shorter than 165/8 SSTs etc . The only thing that caused me grief was LC Match which would stick hard with any load in it .

Only you and your rifle know . I'd work up a load in one of the bigger lots get a good load and duplicate it in the other big lots then trade off the smaller ones for more of the preferred Head Stamp/s . Some times a particular maker of brass just won't talk to a particular arm . I had 2 that delivered the goods 100% with RP and 5 that had feed , extraction , pressure like issues , and just generally didn't shoot up to much over poorly . Neither of which are a condemnation of RP , and I doubt very much that 8.0 Unique under a 255 in a 45 Colts was an over pressure load , it just wouldn't shoot .

[trapper9260]

The only time I will not use mix brass on the 308 Win is take the mil. brass out of the mix since it is thicker then the other brass, then I just load the mix brass as normal loads and then the mil. LC type a different load I work up on it .

[Winger Ed.]

I'd do the normal sorting of the larger batches.

On the odds & ends, if they are FL sized, and trimmed, then weighed-
The ones that weigh within a grain or two:
There may still be a little bit of a variable due to case web thickness, but you should be real, real close on internal volume too.

I haven't seen it mentioned much anymore-
The older books used to tell ya to decrease powder charges by one grain or so to compensate for the thicker walls
and smaller volume of the heavier GI brass. Just out of habit, I still keep them separate.

[Hick]

If the internal volumes of the two cases are the same it does not matter if they are different headstamps. The pressure limits have nothing to do with the brand of brass-- they are for the receiver that supports the brass.

The only time different headstamps matter is when the internal volumes are NOT the same, such as military brass versus commercial brass. Then you can different pressures because of the different internal volumes.

[Rcmaveric]

Plinking ammo. I dont realy care. I will mix head stamps. I am shooting for fun and its still accurate enough. Some times you can see distinct groupings and sometimes it looks like a larger group than normal. Depends on caliber and case. I notice more distinct groups the larger the case. IE 9mm looks like a larger group than normal, Grendel looks like its starting distinct groups but is still clustered and 270 Win looks like distinct individual groups.

You can sometimes use cases with similar enough case volume. I do that with Grendel ammo since brass 7.62×39 is hard for me to find. Its good enough.

When shooting when it counts I match head stamps and weigh cases. Guess it all depends is it for fun, bragging rights, money, meat or a life.


Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[tunnug]

Been loading for many years and have never worried about mixing headstamps because I've always loaded middle of the road, when I started shooting matches was when I would stick to one headstamp and only for the gun I'd be using, all other times it was just for plinking so I didn't care, when I hunt I use factory load.

[Vettepilot]

Great answers guys, and thanks!!

Are there any "rules of thumb" or formulas for reducing powder charges for lower volume cases??

Vettepilot

[Rcmaveric]

Naw. I just use the same load. The pressure characteristics are really only enough to shift POI.

[charlie b]

Kinda same as everyone else. Any mixed brass I keep for my plinker loads. Different cases really don't matter much when you are only loading 5-10gn of powder. I drill out the flash hole on these.

My jacketed full power loads are in Lapua brass, weight sorted.

Cast bullet loads for accuracy are in single headstamp. Also weighed but with wider margin than the Lapua stuff. They also get the flash hole drilled out.

[Dieselhorses]

I guess that at holds true for .223 and 5.56? I have a mess of over 4000 pieces being processed. Trying to research the innards of different brand .308 cases but here is .223/5.56:

285313

[Krag 1901]

I'd prep and trim the Mixed lot then weight sort to match case weights into 50 rnd lots.
Years ago I got a mess of LC Match brass and weight sorted out 50 within 1 grain of each other. I've been using that brass for a long time and it always shoots well.

[charlie b]

I guess that at holds true for .223 and 5.56? I have a mess of over 4000 pieces being processed. Trying to research the innards of different brand .308 cases but here is .223/5.56:

285313

Yes, on the .223, especially military vs commercial. Also, some of the commercial stuff (like some Federal) is actually military spec brass. I do not weight sort my .223 but I do keep headstamp separate. Most of the time I use Lapua simply because of how many times I can reload it. I don't have thousands of surplus cases around. But, I am also shooting 1/2 MOA accuracy levels.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

My experience with 5.56/ .223 brass is that they are close in internal volume. It's the 7.62/ .308 you need to be careful of.

[Soundguy]

id seperate nato from commercial and load like that...

[Beaverhunter2]

The truly random 2's and 3's I throw together loaded with my standard load- 43.0gr of IMR 4064 or 42.0gr of SWM or Tu 5000, pretty much any LR primer and a 150gr or 147gr FMJBT. Shoots 2.5" or better groups at 100yds with similar POA. Then I put it on the shelf for a rainy day. Cheap blasting ammo but accurate enough to be usable.

You'll be surprised how it adds up over time.

[Wag]

I wouldn't get that OCD about it unless I were loading for competition. Aside from that, just put the odd brass into a plinker batch and load away.

Most of us don't shoot competition and if you did, you'd want to fine tune every tiny little detail from buying brass that is from the same lot, to using competition dies and primers, to measuring the least variance in case volumes. Etc. Etc. There are a hundred such details.

But you buy once-fired range brass, you're already NOT getting the consistency you can get with a truly engineered OCD box of ammo!

For what it's worth, I used to sort brass by head stamp too but in recent years, I'm not that worried about it any more.

--Wag--

[Budzilla 19]

I separate the military from the commercial, and headstamp ,like LC Match, get put together,in its own batch box. Plinkers get the few” oddball” headstamps, and, like mentioned before, if shooting for score,or for meat on the table, those loads get the most attention as to the details, like trim length, weight sorting, flash hole debur , etc, etc. Otherwise, load them middle of the road, plinking loads, and be happy. Just my .02. Be safe, and Happy 4 th of July!!!!

[farmbif]

308 win is one caliber that has a whole bunch of different manufacturers and internal volume can vary greatly. I had the same kind of situation with a big bucket of mixed head stamps. in my opinion the best thing to do is sort by headstamp into separate bags or containers and start with the bag with the most in it and work up load then do the same working ups loads for each brand of brass.

[Vettepilot]

308 win is one caliber that has a whole bunch of different manufacturers and internal volume can vary greatly. I had the same kind of situation with a big bucket of mixed head stamps. in my opinion the best thing to do is sort by headstamp into separate bags or containers and start with the bag with the most in it and work up load then do the same working ups loads for each brand of brass.

This is something like I would generally be more inclined to do, and have already sorted them into bags. However, since some of the headstamps I only have say, 12, or maybe 18 of, I will probably volume sort them to see if they will fit into other headstamp groups of which I have more.

For example, let's say I have 60 of headstamp "X". That's worth working up a load for. Then let's say a volume sampling of headstamps "Y", "Z", and "Q" comes fairly close to the same volume. I could then lump them into the "X" group, and happily load away.

Again, the problem is I just don't know what resonable volume tolerances should be. Plus or minus how many cc's, or grains, of water? In the above hypothetical scenario, how much should batch "Q" differ from "X" to get excluded from the group? Many are saying "It doesn't matter, except as concerns military versus commercial." Maybe that's true, but I think we can do better, and safer than that with just a little extra work, that I don't mind...


Thanks!
Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Working up a high velocity load. Same headstamp cases. You get to 47 grains of Whizbang 2000 powder, and see a bit of primer flattening, but no cratering and no ejector swipe. Ok, noted. Accuracy fair to good.

47.3 grains, more primer flattening, maybe a hint of cratering on a couple, no ejector marks. Ok, noted; pay attention!! Accuracy very good.

47.6 grains. Quite flat primers with mild cratering, 2 of 5 rounds have a slight ejector swipe. Stop! Pressure! Go back to 47.3 as MAX. Accuracy fair.

(Load data had 48 grains as max.)

Now, if I am getting what most are saying, it won't matter if I load this into a case with less volume??? I'm not buying it...

Vettepilot

[ulav8r]

Now, if I am getting what most are saying, it won't matter if I load this into a case with less volume??? I'm not buying it...

Vettepilot

Nope. Most said sorting not necessary 'UNLESS" working up max loads. Mixed is fime for low to middle loads. I have some 308 loads in Lake City brass that need to be pulled and the charge reduced. The same load was fine in commercial brass and I thought it was enough below max that it would be OK in the military brass. It was NOT.

[1hole]

There's a world of difference between saying we can (usually) safely switch cases around and saying there will be no difference. No sane load is likely to blow a gun from together if we mix cases but some measure of accuracy/velocity is likely to be observed - and even that difference may be small.

[dverna]

The end use factors into how I approach this.

In my situation, the .308 is not used for plinking or shooting cast. Having “garbage” cases would be useless. After sorting cases, I sell what I do not want

The 5.56 is different. I use one headstamp for the bolt action rifles, and will shoot a mish mash in the AR’s. But I separate commercial and military cases.

IMO, you are better off selling those 200 mixed cases unless you want plinking ammunition. I would not develop a load unless I had at least 100 cases of the same headstamp. You will waste more money in components than the savings of using small lots of cases.

[rbuck351]

I normally use same head stamp for rifle cases but if I end up with small lots of different head stamp I will bag them according to weight. For handgun brass I don't bother separating except for 454 Casull. I have enough 308 and 223/5.56 brass that I don't load the mil brass.

[Lloyd Smale]

most calibers i dont worry to much about it. but 308s i kind of do. Theres a bigger swing percentage wise in 308 brass then about any other caliber. Doesnt effect me when i mass load for my ar10. I back off a bit and dont worry about sub moa. I do work up a load for it though for hunting and that load is sorted brass. For my bolt guns when i push them to top velocitys I do separate brass. Ive seen big enough velocity spread and groups open up and even pressure signs mixing commercial and military and even two different commercial brands. Probably the same for 223 but all my ammo goes to ars and again i dont push the envelope with them. Again i have ar dedicated to long range shooting and it does get a separate load with matched brass, match primers and good bullets. but for busting steel its a waste of time..

[Ford SD]

I'm guessing this might have been covered in the past, but I couldn't find an answer to my exact question, so here goes... apologies if it's a stupid question and/or has been thoroughly covered before.

So I just bought a batch of 308 range brass, and have sorted it by headstamp. I ended up with some Federal, PPU, Lake City, etc., in batches of 40 to 80 or more. No problem there; just work up a load for each headstamp.

But I also ended up with around 200 or so in assorted headstamps. Some I have 3 of, some 8, some 5, etc., etc. What is the best way to deal with those??

Hypothetical case:

Let's say you have Federal brass, and it averages (xx) internal water volume, and you work up a safe, yet fast load for it. Could you then safely take a brand "X" headstamped case, that measures the SAME internal volume, and load it the same as the Federal??

What are acceptable safe internal volume tolerances in 30 cal brass?

Thanks for any and all insights,
Vettepilot

I have Sorted 308 brass for many years ... not a great shooter but

I have found 308 brass can vary in weight from 150g to 190g so I sort by headstamp then by weight.

but plinker brass for me can be mixed brass

last night I reloaded 50 round of 30-06 for a garand and there was 6 different headstamps brass weight +- 2g

if it was 45 acp I would not worry about it

223/556 brass weight can be very close but I find the neck can vary if converting to 300 BO

[popper]

I have mixed brass for AR10, LC (MG & various years) and range PU, shoot 168gr cast. Haven't trimmed, neck turned, sorted any. Anneal every once in a while. Shot MOA @ 200 as a test, once. Didn't look to see what HS. I don't shoot for $ and don't care. When the PP goes or brass is beat up, toss it.

[Multra]

Separate them 7.62 and .308, the internal volumes between the two are great enough that it matters, even for plinking depending on the powder.

[Vettepilot]

Well guys, thanks again for all the input!! I will probably compromise by volume checking 2 or 3 of each head stamp, then seeing if I can sort them into groups of usable, somewhat same volume cases.

I just wish I knew about how much volume difference to consider. Plus or minus 2 grains, or 100?? (Kidding!) 8-)

Quickload would tell me, but I won't be getting that expensive dude anytime soon. :(

Vettepilot

[Multra]

Well guys, thanks again for all the input!! I will probably compromise by volume checking 2 or 3 of each head stamp, then seeing if I can sort them into groups of usable, somewhat same volume cases.

I just wish I knew about how much volume difference to consider. Plus or minus 2 grains, or 100?? (Kidding!) 8-)

Quickload would tell me, but I won't be getting that expensive dude anytime soon. :(

Vettepilot

https://www.grtools.de

[Char-Gar]

I am old school in all things reloading. I do not reload to get large quantities of mediocre/blasting/plinking ammo. I reload to get the best quality, highest accuracy ammo that I can build. Therefore, I use the same make and lot of brass. I do not mix handstamps or even different lots of the same headstamp.

[30calflash]

I think it may depend on the quantity of cases you want in a batch. 100? 50? 24?

A small lot of cases that weigh within 3 grains and not loaded to max or used for 1000 yd shooting will be fine for anything else. Offhand practice, letting another try that caliber, etc. I've some small lots and use them for those kind of purposes.

[Vettepilot]

See, that's the thing though; I do like to load to near max. Not pushing things, but as close to max as I can with what I feel is a small margin for safety. That's kind of necessary here 'cause of the high temps we get.

So if you are loading near max, what case volume variation would be ok/safe? Again, NOT for long range, but for loads approaching max in a gas gun.

Vettepilot

[Char-Gar]

See, that's the thing though; I do like to load to near max. Not pushing things, but as close to max as I can with what I feel is a small margin for safety. That's kind of necessary here 'cause of the high temps we get.

So if you are loading near max, what case volume variation would be ok/safe? Again, NOT for long range, but for loads approaching max in a gas gun.

Vettepilot

Any answers you get to that question will be guess work and not science. Frankly anybody pushing the pressure to the near edge of the red line should not even think about using mixed brass of unknown quality and capacity.

[Three44s]

I will not cut corners and thus fore sake safety!

Further this discussion lines up with a stir I seem to have caused a few days ago on another forum when I suggested that there is a difference between reloading and hand-loading. Just stuffing mediocre ammo together is reloading, assembly of components in a manner to strive for special performance, especially to attain accuracy at a high level is hand-loading IMO.

I load ammo to the best of my ability to attain a desired level of accuracy when possible but also maintain safety and reliability. Sorting brass by head stamp is one of the most basic steps towards those stated goals.

I can envision scenarios where one would not need to sort cases into groups but it’s not my “bag”.

As I am annal about hand-loading, I also believe in the concept of diminishing returns. Where I have a gun that can be a star performer, I go deeper into the details and strive for smaller groups, etc. But in a gun that does not have a potential for real accuracy, I only rise to the challenge such that it makes sense.

Three44s

[Vettepilot]

Any answers you get to that question will be guess work and not science. Frankly anybody pushing the pressure to the near edge of the red line should not even think about using mixed brass of unknown quality and capacity.

The thing is, if you are willing to measure volume, (and I am), and sort for loading based on that, then it doesn't matter that they're mixed headstamps. At least as regards pressure, although admittedly quite likely losing some accuracy via using the mixed headstamp brass.

Ok, let's simplify this. Let's just take the "mixed headstamp" part out of the semantics of the question. If you are loading near max, and wish to volume check and sort your brass, what parameters should one use??

Vettepilot

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with Wag. Unless you are loading for benchrest competition or loading the max. + I wouldn’t be concerned with mixing headstamps. If I am doing any of the above( which I rarely do), I start with new brass and weigh each case for uniformity.

[charlie b]

The thing is, if you are willing to measure volume, (and I am), and sort for loading based on that, then it doesn't matter that they're mixed headstamps. At least as regards pressure, although admittedly quite likely losing some accuracy via using the mixed headstamp brass.

Ok, let's simplify this. Let's just take the "mixed headstamp" part out of the semantics of the question. If you are loading near max, and wish to volume check and sort your brass, what parameters should one use??

Vettepilot

It depends. (I always love that answer :) )

For things like benchrest competition it really doesn't matter what the case volume is, as long as all the cases are the same. 'We' have had discussions over the best ways to measure volume but the easiest is to weigh the cases. Do a full length resize or fireformed (pick one, another long discussion) and trim to same length. Weigh as close as you want. Pick 10 cases that weigh the same and use those for competing/groups. You can also use a fine substance, like sand, to fill the cases and weigh that. Some have used water, but, that is 1) messy and 2) not as accurate (IMHO).

For max loads it is more difficult. If you are not measuring the pressure you really don't know. Determining over pressure by stiff extraction, flattened primers, etc is a crap shoot. Note that you can be pretty far over pressure before seeing signs of it. I just use same headstamp but I am also a little below book max.

Short story. A customer (not mine, gunsmith was a friend) brought in a Dan Wesson in .357 cause it wasn't shooting well anymore. Test fire confirmed bullets were keyholing. Looking closer the factory rounds were 'loose' in the chamber, as it rattling around. Customer admitted to shooting reloads and had cases. Primers were not flattened out. Cases were not stiff to extract. When asked the customer said the load was Bullseye. When asked how much he said he just filled the case to not leave an air gap. He was lucky.

[charlie b]

PS even when weighing cases it does not guarantee the same volume, especially if you use different headstamp brass. The amount of brass in the rim area may be a bit different and affect the conversion between volume and weight. It may not be much, but, if you are weighing within 0.1gn then it may make a difference.

[Vettepilot]

PS even when weighing cases it does not guarantee the same volume, especially if you use different headstamp brass. The amount of brass in the rim area may be a bit different and affect the conversion between volume and weight. It may not be much, but, if you are weighing within 0.1gn then it may make a difference.

Yes, I know. That's why I specifically mentioned that I would "volume" sort these. It's a bit of a pain, but I don't mind, and as you say, case weight does not tell the story.

I just don't know how else to word my question!? When VOLUME, (not weight) sorting, what parameters to use?? How many cc's, or grains of water deviation is acceptable?? Plus or minus exactly how much variation in volume?

Vettepilot

[Krag 1901]

Yes, I know. That's why I specifically mentioned that I would "volume" sort these. It's a bit of a pain, but I don't mind, and as you say, case weight does not tell the story.

I just don't know how else to word my question!? When VOLUME, (not weight) sorting, what parameters to use?? How many cc's, or grains of water deviation is acceptable?? Plus or minus exactly how much variation in volume?

Vettepilot

Take the average and the upper/lower weights, in water grains/grams and look at the percentage of variation then sort by least variable weight in water to top of case. That should give you the volume (1 gram=1CC of H2O).

Or you could just buy some Hornady or Starline Brass and start with matching head stamps?

[charlie b]

How much variation is up to you.

I weight sort so I sort them in 0.1gn groups. Then based on the distribution of weights will choose a spread that fits my use. It will look kinda like a lopsided bell curve.

For volume (weight of water, sand, etc?) I'd probably do the same thing.

[bluejay75]

In my experience the more space that’s left in the case after you charge it the less it matters. As that space becomes less and less the more the variances in capacity will be magnified.