Recommendations for modern inline smoothbore percusion deringer

[Cimran]

Hello, I would like to get advice on the most suitable ammunition for my two inline deringers Gladiator .45 from the Czech company Detonics.
These are modern two-shot deringers. The weapon is designed almost for defense. It has hidden cocks, and switching between barell is mainly done by simply pressing the trigger. The barrel is smooth.
The weapon has overall very compact dimensions.

The deringers that I have differ only in size. The caliber is the same. The barrel of the larger one is 1.5 cm longer (0.59 inch).
With the smaller Gladiator, the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to the piston is only 6 cm (2.3622 inch).


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The manufacturer recommends several bullet. I tried all of them. Accuracy is sufficient for a few meters. At 25 meters, however, it is quite a problem to stay in black. Apart from the Harvester sabote, I didn't notice a bigger difference in accuracy with the longer barrel.

I tried:
a) ogival 200 gr.
Compared to others, realistically accurate, yet sometimes it flies unexpectedly elsewhere.
b) real 200 gr.
It rotates differently, losing direction.
c) real 250 gr., maxiball 250 gr.
It rotates differently during the flight, and at 25 meters (82 feet) quite inaccurate. I have this shot loaded for self-defense.
d) a spherical projectile with a cotton pad
The most accurate. However, it seems to me that the bullet is too light. I don't want to use it for self-defense.
d) Sabot Harvester 200 gr.
In the shorter barrel, the bullet is as inaccurate as the real. In the longer barrel is very accurate. Unfortunately, these sabot are very expensive (more than $ 1). I'm also not sure if, in the case of self-defense, passed on all the energy.

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I use Vesuvit LC and Vesuvit LC1 gunpowder. Unfortunately, we do not have a very large supply of powder. LC1 dust is intended for small arms, it occurs to me that it burns fast enough.
I tried different weights, due to the method of determination, I stick around 1.5 to 2 grams (23-30 grain).


I'm looking for a shot that would be suitable for self-defense, and at the same time would be accurate enough to 25 meters. I will be happy for any responses, questions, and recommendations. I have to say this modern Gladiator caused me to become much more interested in black powder.

PS: PS: Please excuse my English, it's not my native language. :)

[Edward]

Invest in a knife/and a file anything else your done for ! Do not for a 2nd believe anything you mentioned is worthy of the name self defense ,just a painful out come ! Sorry but its a knife or a flat rock

[dondiego]

If you shoot someone with that, they are going to get really mad!

[junkbug]

The round-ball will usually work best with a smooth bore. I do not want to be shot with one. I do not the President Lincoln wanted to either. Regardless, it is a very short range tool.

25 yards or meters with this pistol is wishful thinking. I doubt you could hit a house door with one, with any projectile, even using a clamp rest.

[Cimran]

Thanks for the feedback. I have already invested in knives, but I perceive them as a tool for work. I have pepper spray for self-defense, and a telescopic baton. However, the situation may change, and then I will like something stronger in my hand.

I think the performance of this deringer is sufficient, in the first photo there is a book I hit at 13 feet (250gr maxiball, 2 grams Vesuvit LC1). Maxibal stayed on page 417, bending the book nicely.
The next photo is a test with a sabot Harvester, the shot went completely through. But it gave less energy.

The only thing I fight with is accuracy at greater distances, I would like to have a little more fun with him at the shooting range.

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[mooman76]

I also think you should try some roundballs.

[dondiego]

I take back my statement above. For some reason I though this gun was a .30 caliber or less.

[Markopolo]

I like it....

Do you have access to triple 7 powder ??? it has a bit more power and is cleaner burning in my experience. i would also vote for a round ball...

are these available in the USA yet? i am wondering how it fits in your hand. i have always found these type things hard to hang on to..

[Wayne Smith]

That is a belly button range self protection - think across the poker table - not intended for any appreciable range work. Yes, quite effective at that range and very dangerous. Back before antibiotics guaranteed death. Today, a trip to the Emergency Room is in the works.

[Cimran]

Thank you for all the feedback!
I will try to answer everything, and at the same time I would like to know your opinion on my ideas.


The round-ball will usually work best with a smooth bore. I do not want to be shot with one. I do not the President Lincoln wanted to either. Regardless, it is a very short range tool.

25 yards or meters with this pistol is wishful thinking. I doubt you could hit a house door with one, with any projectile, even using a clamp rest.

At 25 yards, I only did relatively well with the Gladiator with the longer barrel, and the Harvester sabot. About 1.5 cm extra barrel helped a lot. Due to the price of one bullet, I don't see much for hundreds of shots at the shooting range with this bullet. :)
A friend had the opportunity to compare Gladiator with a Philadelphia .45 deringer, and said the performance was significantly higher. From Philadelphia, some bullets bounced off the board.


If you shoot someone with that, they are going to get really mad!

These deringers are tiny, but the caliber is not so small (.45). The manufacturer also makes them in .50 caliber. In .50 caliber, the Gladiator can achieve interesting performances. The manufacturer declarate in .50 caliber, real projectiles 21g and 1.5g powder 555 J.


I like it....

Do you have access to triple 7 powder ??? it has a bit more power and is cleaner burning in my experience. i would also vote for a round ball...

are these available in the USA yet? i am wondering how it fits in your hand. i have always found these type things hard to hang on to..

I think the manufacturer Detonics (https://www.detonics.com/en) is not represented in the USA. But they have a website in English, so maybe they're getting ready for it. They now also offer a micro shotgun, which is actually a much larger Gladiator. It has a huge performance, and thanks to the slats it can be decorated like a Christmas tree. : D

My personal feeling of fit in hand is quite good. I can't fit a little deringer with all fingers (I have medium-sized hands). When weighing up to approx. 1.2 to 1.4 g, shooting is comfortable. With a heavy shot and a weight of powder around 2g (30 grains), I already had a bruise from it a few times. But it can be maintained. Girlfriend with a girl's hand holding a stock with all fingers.
The larger deringer is held perfectly comfortably with the whole hand, thanks to the grips and the foot it can be perfectly controlled when shooting.

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In addition to ergonomics, I would say that the trigger runs smoothly, but it is necessary to overcome 5 kg (11 lbs) of resistance in order to fire. This will definitely affect the accuracy. This is price for relatively high level of safety. The cock is cocked, and the barrel is switched only after the trigger is pressed.
Despite the fact that the larger gladiator holds better, the smaller one is much more agile for regular wear. in the kydex inner case I'll forget about it in a moment. However, I do not usually carry it with me.

I definitely want to try Triple 7. Gladiators should be able to handle those pressures perfectly.
Currently I have Vesuvit LC1 (for short barrels, very fine), Vesuvit LC2 (for rifles, I bought it for a historical shotgun) and the rest Vesuvit LC (cheap, and as the only almost always available. Basic LC is unsorted black powder.there is a larger selection of powders than LC at only a few retailers at the other end of the country. Sending by post is not permitted by law. You can only keep a limited amount of dust. For Tripl 7 I will have to take a trip and shoot everything first.




That is a belly button range self protection - think across the poker table - not intended for any appreciable range work. Yes, quite effective at that range and very dangerous. Back before antibiotics guaranteed death. Today, a trip to the Emergency Room is in the works.
You're right, I can imagine Gladiator's self-defense up to those 5 yards. At a greater distance, it would probably no longer be a matter of self-defense. However, I hope that in this way I will never have to use my deringers. The manufacturer recommends the use of maximall, and de facto states its instability as its advantage (greater stopping effect).



I also think you should try some roundballs.
I was wondering what, in addition to the round ball, I could try, I am discouraged from roundball by its small (compared to maxiball half) weight, and thus the energy transferred to target. I would like to practice on the shooting range with the same recoil as I am loaded.
I've read a lot and looked for inspiration for shotgun slugs, but I'm not sure which of my ideas are real. I don't know how much influence the much higher velocity and longer barrel of the rifle has on the behavior of a particular projectile.



What do you think of these bullets?

Wadcutter - a cylinder-shaped bullet - I find this solution most promising. The projectile would have the shape of a full cylinder. As a result, it should have maximum weight on the smallest possible area. Even if it starts to rotate after the shot, its cross-sectional size will be smaller than that of the maxiball. This would reduce the effect of rotation. I hope that the shot would behave as close as possible to the round ball.

A slug diabolo bullet - it occurred to me that a longer "tail" could stabilize the bullet. The reasoning is based on the fact that the bullet will fly to the front of the heavier head.

Tail made of a different material - I was thinking about a plastic (3d print) base, which could stabilize the projectile similarly to a diabolo projectile.

A projectile in the shape of a hollow cylinder - it occurred to me that if there was a cavity along the entire length of the projectile, it could be stabilized by a stream of air passing through this cavity, I have a slug into a percussion shotgun with a similar shape. I like that I could make a bullet for testing from lead sheet (roll up and solder).

I would also like to know your opinion on the use of:

Buck and ball - it occurred to me that I would place 2-3 lead shots under the ball. Will the roundball be as accurate as shooting a separate round ball?
What is the appropriate shot size for this application?

Wax slug - what is the ideal size and number of shots? Accuracy probably won't be great, but I'd like to try it.

Buck - what is the ideal size and number of shots? I'm quite curious what the variance will be from such a short barrel.

I know the easiest thing would be not to ask questions and try different shots. I'm going to have to buy shots for these attempts, and they only sell in big packages. It would be best to try other ideas as well, unfortunately, as finished, only bullets in the photos from the first post are available for us in this category. I'm going to cast my own bullets, I'm trying to figure out what might work best before buying casting molds.

Can you think of any other things worth trying? Do you have any ideas? Or which way to definitely not go ...

[Good Cheer]

I would go with the largest workable diameter of round ball, to have the largest diameter projectile at the greatest achievable velocity.

[ofitg]

In a different thread, our forum member Pettypace has presented Charles Schwartz’s equation for predicting penetration in ballistic gelatin – see post # 78 -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?379046-Two-Projectile-Loads-in-Snubby-for-Self-Defense/page4&highlight=schwartz

Here is the same equation, using the variables for a .440 lead ball (weight 126 grains) at a velocity of 500 feet per second -

500**0.745*126/7000/(0.44/2)**2/3.14

This equation can be copied/pasted into a Google search to calculate the result. The calculation indicates that a .440 lead ball at 500 feet per second should penetrate 12.14 inches of ballistic gelatin, which meets the FBI’s requirement for lethal penetration.

[Cane_man]

maybe a patched roundball

[mooman76]

A couple you could try are a Pennsylvania Conical or a ballet. I don't know how hard it would be for you to get. The ballet is difficult to find anymore, even here. They basically look like a cross between and RB and a conical. They are very short. Front round like an RB and going back from the center, flat on back like a conical.

By the way your english is very good, maybe better than mine.:grin:

[RoyEllis]

I was wondering what, in addition to the round ball, I could try, I am discouraged from roundball by its small (compared to maxiball half) weight, and thus the energy transferred to target. ...

Cimran, before you discount the effectiveness of a roundball, search and read about the Hickok/Tutt fight.
Using an 1851 .36 cap and ball loaded revolver, Bill Hickok killed Davis Tutt with a single shot to the heart at a reported range of 75yds. Your derringer in .45cal should easily be just as effective at normal 7 to 10yd self-defense ranges.

[Sitzme]

https://americanguncraft.com/product/diablo-break-open-12-gauge-pistol-black-grips/

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[yeahbub]

Given that a round ball is inherently the most stable/accurate from an unrifled bore, would two round balls be an option? Within a few yards, that would be two hits on target per shot rather than just one. Recoil would be increased, but possibly still be manageable. With twice the mass, overall energy would also be increased, but muzzle velocity would be reduced in some degree and penetration would have to be examined. At least both balls would be launched in the same direction the bore is pointed, whereas a buck-and-ball combination would tend to scatter more quickly. The use of buck-and-ball was intended for troop formations where any hits on enemy soldiers were an advantage, but this is not good for defense where the safety of bystanders is to be considered.

Do the laws in the Czech Republic require that these pistols be smoothbores? Rifled barrels would be a tremendous advantage in accurately extending your reach to beyond the range of an opponent with a contact weapon. Safety and liability concerns would also be much reduced with better accuracy. An opponent can cross 6-9 meters in one or two seconds, making situational awareness, early detection at distance and safe, accurate weapon deployment primary concerns.

It's interesting that the maker of your derringers is Detonics. In the 1970's there was a company in the US of the same name which produced reduced size auto pistols on the 1911 pattern. I believe they closed their doors for the last time in 2008 and don't suppose there is any connection.

[Electrod47]

Looks like a fun novelty item. Probably legal for a convicted felon to posses. Otherwise, there are so many other options available for personal protection.

[barnetmill]

Smooth bore muzzle loading pistols are legal in the USA until the ATF says that they are not and it seems they are legal in your country. Two inches or so of barrel is not enough with black powder to achieved some good velocities.
Are those guns strong enough for smokeless power charges. If it is not safe with smokeless, can it withstand the pressure from finer granulations of black powder since these will give higher velocity. 500 feet per second is really not enough if I understand correctly the velocities being achieved.

[barnetmill]

Cimran, before you discount the effectiveness of a roundball, search and read about the Hickok/Tutt fight.
Using an 1851 .36 cap and ball loaded revolver, Bill Hickok killed Davis Tutt with a single shot to the heart at a reported range of 75yds. Your derringer in .45cal should easily be just as effective at normal 7 to 10yd self-defense ranges.
A .36 cap and ball navy revolver usually has a long barrel and can get respectable handgun velocity.
The . 36 caliber (0.375–0.380 inch) round lead ball weighs 80 grains and, at a velocity of 1,000 feet per second, They were also loaded with picket bullets that were heavier and seem to be about the same in velocity as a modern 38 S&W cartridge load like IIRC 600-700 fps.

[megasupermagnum]

I also think you should try the round ball, but also with an 1/8" thick felt wad under the ball. I would try a full size ball. Assuming that is a 45 caliber bore, I'd try a .454" round ball.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I've wanted one of these since they came out. Still no US imports. I'd like to get the 50 cal version.

[john.k]

A lot of good men and bad killed with a 44 ball at around 500ft /sec.....Webley long proved that a low velocity bullet that stayed inside the body was far more instantly disabling than a through penetration wound.

[dogrunner]

Elmer Keith was an advocate of the RB.............if that gun was mine I'd stoke it with a maximum charge of black and call it good to go...........besides, who in their right mind would stick around after the fire and smoke belching?........and you've still got the 2nd tube!!

[John Taylor]

Cimron, first let me say your english is fine. The problem with going to maxiball or any other long bullet out of a smooth bore will be tumbling. This may give better stopping power as the wound channel will be greater. Best velocity will be from a round ball which also will be the best accuracy. The problem with using shot added to the load is less usable barrel length which will effect velocity. Probably the best for self defense would be a bullet that is the same diameter and length as a round ball but flat on both ends. This would be sure to tumble out of a smooth bore but would give the best velocity out of a short barrel and have more weigh than a round ball.
Many years ago I made a BB (.177") under hammer pistol that was smooth bore. The powder charge was a 22 short case full of 4F. It was as loud as a 38 special and would put a steel BB through a 1" board at 25 yards and was quite accurate at that range. Barrel length was less than 3", sight radius about 5". The old Daisy BBs were not accurate as they had a little flat on each side.