Savage 220 load options?

[Wisest.fool]

I just got a savage 220 for the purpose of deer hunting in a shotgun only area. Does anyone have experience with a fully rifled shotgun like this or this exact gun with slug in wad or full bore slugs?

I would rather not invent the wheel all over again.

Molds i have are lee 575 rb and lee 54 cal REAL. The 54 is a bit undersized i think and my 58 caliber REAL is too big for sure

I have the ability to fold or roll crimp for 20g and a 1000 shotgun primers to play with. And i can powdercoat to increase diameter or for fullbore slugs. And i am willing to buy cast projectiles but would rather just buy a mold that someone else has already tested and call it a day.

I would love to hear that someone has already figured this out with reasonable accuracy less than 8" spread at 150m. Which is my goal. And i dont know if that is reasonable but thats the goal i set for myself.

Please share your knowledge with me.

[Hogtamer]

Fury custom bullets makes a plastic based full bore slug that I shoot out of my 220. Killed plenty of hogs and 5 deer in the last several years. Dennis, aka as Uncle Dino is a contributer here and a whiz with bullet design. Give him a call.

https://www.furycustombullets.com/webapp/p/209/shotgun-slugs

[Wisest.fool]

Those look nice. With the wad attached how do you get the height right? Or do you load short shells?

[Hogtamer]

Plastic gas seal over powder then 3/8 or 1/2" waxed wad, I'll have to check. I roll crimp these. I consider them 100 yd loads.

[Blood Trail]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210701/c09adf42dde12d5ffee33da957a6ad01.jpg
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Here’s a Fury 20 ga slug shot from my 220. Still need to play around with it. I have a custom Tarhunt barrel on mine.


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[Wisest.fool]

So +1 on fury bullets. I will have to give them a try.

[Hogtamer]

BT, that bullet is a beast! IIRC 650 gr. I never shot an animal with mine though. Too much recoil for an old codger. Oh, that’s a 20 and I was thinking 12. How much does that one weigh?

[uncle dino]

That 20 ga slug is 410 grains.. just shy of an ounce. D

[Hogtamer]

Da man himself! Good to hear from you D.

[Wisest.fool]

UPDATE:
several tests performed.

575 RB: in WAA-20, petals cut down and roll crimped - crap accuracy. Way Forward: will try adding COW or some other buffer. will try overshot card. will try fold crimp with buffer.

54 caliber: in WAA-20 sits loose so added 1 wrap of electrical tape - crap accuracy Way Forward: not gonna try further at this time.

Russian Segmenting Slug: bought the Svarog model: sveroboy m-20 mold. ProTip: that mold has to be as hot as you can get it to cast right but it does cast well when wicked hot. cut petals off WAA-20 screwed into wad through slug with #4x1/2inch flat head wood screws. cut top off factory game loads. removed shot and wad. dropped russian slug with wad attached and roll crimped down.

Results: excellent accuracy out to 75m(around 4 inch group). at 100m groups open up ridiculously(over 30 inches). after further investigation i found detached wads around 50-65m. Theory: the wads falling off destabilized the slug. Way Forward: try new wads(commander, brush wad), try fold crimp (Will require adjusting shot column) try longer or fatter screws.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not surprised you didn't get good accuracy with the REAL. I can't even get them to shoot in the muzzleloaders they were designed for. The following is the load I shoot in my H&R Tracker II (rifled barrel). I couldn't even get factory loads to shoot good, but this one shoots about 1 1/2" at 50 yards with the open sights. This is a published load for the 350gr Lyman slug, but I substituted the round ball. Note that the groove diameter of my H&R is about .6265". If your Savage is closer to .618-.620", you may want to opt for a .625" ball. I'm casting in a .633" JT ball mold, and they drop about .630". I cant recall the exact scoop of PSB buffer I used, I use that to adjust to the height I need. You may add or remove nitro cards as needed to fit as well.

20ga Federal 3"
Federal 209A
34gr Bluedot
Federal 20S1 with petals cut off + (2) 20ga nitro cards
.7cc Lee scoop of PSB buffer
.630" round ball (about 355 grains)
fold crimp

This is published at about 1600 fps. I was actually getting closer to 1675 fps in my gun. It is one of the most impressive rounds I've seen a deer shot with.

[Blood Trail]

UPDATE:
several tests performed.

575 RB: in WAA-20, petals cut down and roll crimped - crap accuracy. Way Forward: will try adding COW or some other buffer. will try overshot card. will try fold crimp with buffer.

54 caliber: in WAA-20 sits loose so added 1 wrap of electrical tape - crap accuracy Way Forward: not gonna try further at this time.

Russian Segmenting Slug: bought the Svarog model: sveroboy m-20 mold. ProTip: that mold has to be as hot as you can get it to cast right but it does cast well when wicked hot. cut petals off WAA-20 screwed into wad through slug with #4x1/2inch flat head wood screws. cut top off factory game loads. removed shot and wad. dropped russian slug with wad attached and roll crimped down.

Results: excellent accuracy out to 75m(around 4 inch group). at 100m groups open up ridiculously(over 30 inches). after further investigation i found detached wads around 50-65m. Theory: the wads falling off destabilized the slug. Way Forward: try new wads(commander, brush wad), try fold crimp (Will require adjusting shot column) try longer or fatter screws.

On those Russia slugs, get a hot plate to heat the mold up while your lead is coming up to temp. I don’t smoke or apart graphite the molds anymore. As for wads, I use the 20ga version of the brush wad and TC20 wads with the petals removed. I’m shooting same hole at 50 yards with 19 grs of 800X:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210726/7e542303aa4ecdd779145628f5c79859.jpg


If you’re having issues with the slug dropping f out of the mold, watch this video:

https://youtu.be/mvuXvpab0zk


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210726/3b719e7f34a86d3a440b936ee9e9de5c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210726/4ecdc6f26ffb0945fa84a9cff365479f.jpg


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[Wisest.fool]

@megasupermagnum: That is the accuracy i am looking for. i will have to look into getting a .630 RB. havent slugged the barrel yet, just pushed wads through with projectiles. i will mic it to see what i get and try the full bore roundballs. where did you get your mold for that?

@Blood Trail: Your post showing your results are what prompted me to try the sveroboy. i have ordered the TC-20 wads from BPI but they are slow to ship right now. all i had was waa20. are you rolling them or have you tried fold crimping them? what screws are you using?

[Wisest.fool]

also that purple powdercoat is very nice

[megasupermagnum]

You can order any size you want from JT ball molds. They were pre-2020 about $42 shipped to my door in about 3 weeks. I don't know if it is still true. https://www.ballmoulds.com/

He cuts the molds to the CAVITY size. I find on average, they drop balls about .003" smaller than the cavity size. I've got 5 or 6 of these molds, and they are usually pretty close to that. For a .630" ball, I'd recommend a .633" mold. For a .625" ball, I'd recommend a .628" mold. It's not rocket science with these, which is what makes them so great. As long as you are somewhere in that .002" to .010" over groove diameter, you should be good. Slugging your bore is best. If you measure with a calipers, the reading always seems to be smaller by a couple thousandths. If you measure with a calipers and get somewhere in the .614" to .618" range, I'd get a .628" mold. If you are somewhere in the .618" to .625" range, I'd get the .633". One other note, I'm giving these one or two coats in ALOX tumble lube for good measure. I get zero leading.

Bloodtrail won't lead you wrong either. He gets some real impressive accuracy with those Russian slug molds.

[jordanka16]

You can order any size you want from JT ball molds. They were pre-2020 about $42 shipped to my door in about 3 weeks. I don't know if it is still true. https://www.ballmoulds.com/

He cuts the molds to the CAVITY size. I find on average, they drop balls about .003" smaller than the cavity size. I've got 5 or 6 of these molds, and they are usually pretty close to that. For a .630" ball, I'd recommend a .633" mold. For a .625" ball, I'd recommend a .628" mold. It's not rocket science with these, which is what makes them so great. As long as you are somewhere in that .002" to .010" over groove diameter, you should be good. Slugging your bore is best. If you measure with a calipers, the reading always seems to be smaller by a couple thousandths. If you measure with a calipers and get somewhere in the .614" to .618" range, I'd get a .628" mold. If you are somewhere in the .618" to .625" range, I'd get the .633". One other note, I'm giving these one or two coats in ALOX tumble lube for good measure. I get zero leading.

Bloodtrail won't lead you wrong either. He gets some real impressive accuracy with those Russian slug molds.

The one I just ordered was 50 pounds, so $69. That's shipped all the way to Oregon, so if you're back east it might be less.

[Wisest.fool]

Thank you all for the feedback. I will try JT ball molds.

i will probably slug/mic both my 12 and 20gauge for full bore round balls and get both at once to pay shipping once. I read the forums to see what works and I did come to the conclusion that full bore would work better but the lee molds were just available and cheap.

The best slug in wad I have tried from rifling is the Russian match mold. The best slug in wad from a smoothbore has been the lee 7/8 key drive. The sveroboy is the first full bore load for shotgun I have tried and its definitely more accurate. The lee 1 oz has not been nearly as accurate/stable with either rifling or smoothbore.

Please take my findings with a grain of salt I haven't been as scientific with shotguns as I usually am with metallic because I'm just starting out loading for shotguns and don't know a lot about them. More like taking a shot in the dark and having fun casting some new stuff. Also I'm apparently crap at getting a good fold crimp so most everything i have loaded for slugs has been roll crimped.

Hopefully after I move to Campbell I will have more time to test variables one at a time. This has mainly been an effort to get an accurate enough round to get some deer in the freezer with the weapons allowed on FT Campbell. I could just go buy some factory rounds, but where is the fun in that?

[bcp477]

UPDATE:
several tests performed.

575 RB: in WAA-20, petals cut down and roll crimped - crap accuracy. Way Forward: will try adding COW or some other buffer. will try overshot card. will try fold crimp with buffer.

54 caliber: in WAA-20 sits loose so added 1 wrap of electrical tape - crap accuracy Way Forward: not gonna try further at this time.

Russian Segmenting Slug: bought the Svarog model: sveroboy m-20 mold. ProTip: that mold has to be as hot as you can get it to cast right but it does cast well when wicked hot. cut petals off WAA-20 screwed into wad through slug with #4x1/2inch flat head wood screws. cut top off factory game loads. removed shot and wad. dropped russian slug with wad attached and roll crimped down.

Results: excellent accuracy out to 75m(around 4 inch group). at 100m groups open up ridiculously(over 30 inches). after further investigation i found detached wads around 50-65m. Theory: the wads falling off destabilized the slug. Way Forward: try new wads(commander, brush wad), try fold crimp (Will require adjusting shot column) try longer or fatter screws.


Am not surprised that you get "crap" accuracy with the round ball loads. The Savage 200 series, unless I am very much mistaken, are really designed for the specialized "sabot slugs" or their approximate equivalent. An improvised round ball load, spun through a rifled barrel... no, just no. I don't blame you for giving it a shot, so to speak. But, you are wise to not continue with that...as you said.

I am NO expert, but.... I think that to get anywhere you will have to concentrate on basically duplicating, in some senses, the factory loaded (and very expensive) sabot type slugs. I think that most people who get the rifled shotguns, thinking that they might be able to cobble together some kind of improvised load (like you often can with a smooth bore)...end up dissappointed and end up learning this lesson "the hard way".

[Wisest.fool]

Well, I didn't expect to get great results immediately and I did expect to get some "curveball" effects from spinning them faster than the black powder rifles they are designed for, but I really reload for the fun of conducting experiments and learning new stuff. I have a smooth bore shotgun in 20 gauge as well and I will try that. But I did just get some commander 20g wads and I will try those next. Still learning shotgun loading. The Russian sveroboy slugs I think will be a winner. Just got a 12 gauge mold and the green brushwads from bpi fit them nicely286849

[megasupermagnum]

Am not surprised that you get "crap" accuracy with the round ball loads. The Savage 200 series, unless I am very much mistaken, are really designed for the specialized "sabot slugs" or their approximate equivalent. An improvised round ball load, spun through a rifled barrel... no, just no. I don't blame you for giving it a shot, so to speak. But, you are wise to not continue with that...as you said.

I am NO expert, but.... I think that to get anywhere you will have to concentrate on basically duplicating, in some senses, the factory loaded (and very expensive) sabot type slugs. I think that most people who get the rifled shotguns, thinking that they might be able to cobble together some kind of improvised load (like you often can with a smooth bore)...end up dissappointed and end up learning this lesson "the hard way".

I can't say I agree with a single thing in this statement. The Savage 212 and 220 were not designed for anything. They are a bolt action shotgun, with a plain old rifled barrel. They don't have any special tricks that you can't get in any other rifle barrel shotgun, other than having a good platform and trigger for accuracy. They still have sloppy shotgun chambers, long forcing cones (no throat), and regular rifling. The twist rate is pretty much with all the others out there at 1:24" twist.

I have had WAY, WAY more success getting good slug accuracy with rifled barrels than I have smooth bores. It is extremely hard to match the accuracy of certain rifled slugs, as there simply are no rifled slugs you can buy to load. Most slugs are for wads, or add other aspects or variables. It can be done, but it is not easy. Rifled barrels on the other hand, you can definitely match factory ammo accuracy. You just can't quite match the velocity of the super light sabot slugs. Every sabot I've ever known about for reloading has been a royal flop in the accuracy department. Round balls are usually extremely accurate from a rifled barrel. I get as good accuracy from a round ball in a rifled barrel, as I ever got with the highest dollar sabot slugs. You can get consistent 4" groups at 100 yards with a round ball. You might even be able to improve on that if you really tested some combinations. You see talks about MOA slug guns, it's all a crock. Once in a while 3 shots get close together, and an internet rumor is born. I always offer to give someone a free range day to show me their MOA slug gun, with the rule you have to do it twice. Two five shot groups. I've only had one taker, he was surprised to learn he really had a 4 MOA slug gun. I don't accept "fliers" as accidents.

[Wisest.fool]

I don't really mind getting hornady sets i hear they are very awesome, but I know I will get more satisfaction from putting meat in the fridge with my own load.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't really mind getting hornady sets i hear they are very awesome, but I know I will get more satisfaction from putting meat in the fridge with my own load.

Have you shot Hornady SST's? Most people who try them, find they are horrendous. I'm talking 12" accuracy, if you can call it that. I'm out of the factory game by a couple years now, but I haven't seen anything dramatically change as of late. The most consistently accurate slug I know of is the Federal power shok sabot slug. It's just a plain old swaged hollow point lead slug. They usually shoot really well. The Remington Accutips usually shoot well too if you can stomach that price. If they are still around, the Winchester BRI slugs can be good, as are Lightfield slugs.

[Wisest.fool]

Thanks for the info on factory rounds. Haven't tried any. I love hornady in my 6.5 and 308 so I figured they would be good for shotgun too, but I will try for the others first now. More than likely though it will be whatever I can find with the ammo situation these days.

[bcp477]

I can't say I agree with a single thing in this statement. The Savage 212 and 220 were not designed for anything. They are a bolt action shotgun, with a plain old rifled barrel. They don't have any special tricks that you can't get in any other rifle barrel shotgun, other than having a good platform and trigger for accuracy. They still have sloppy shotgun chambers, long forcing cones (no throat), and regular rifling. The twist rate is pretty much with all the others out there at 1:24" twist.

I have had WAY, WAY more success getting good slug accuracy with rifled barrels than I have smooth bores. It is extremely hard to match the accuracy of certain rifled slugs, as there simply are no rifled slugs you can buy to load. Most slugs are for wads, or add other aspects or variables. It can be done, but it is not easy. Rifled barrels on the other hand, you can definitely match factory ammo accuracy. You just can't quite match the velocity of the super light sabot slugs. Every sabot I've ever known about for reloading has been a royal flop in the accuracy department. Round balls are usually extremely accurate from a rifled barrel. I get as good accuracy from a round ball in a rifled barrel, as I ever got with the highest dollar sabot slugs. You can get consistent 4" groups at 100 yards with a round ball. You might even be able to improve on that if you really tested some combinations. You see talks about MOA slug guns, it's all a crock. Once in a while 3 shots get close together, and an internet rumor is born. I always offer to give someone a free range day to show me their MOA slug gun, with the rule you have to do it twice. Two five shot groups. I've only had one taker, he was surprised to learn he really had a 4 MOA slug gun. I don't accept "fliers" as accidents.



I did say that I am not an expert. I stand corrected, for the most part. Thanks for the information. But, I can say, without much fear of contradiction, that the gun in question was NOT designed for undersized musket balls, fired inside plastic shotgun wads not designed for rifled barrels. Surely you would agree (or at least, not disagree) with that. That was the substance of my point, though I certainly admit that I did not really make that clear.

As for the relative accuracy, or lack thereof, of sabot slugs, I cannot speak to that...so I'll certainly take your word for it. BORE sized round balls are most definitely a different matter - and surely you would not argue that.

[Blood Trail]

I’ve have great accuracy at 100 yards with full bore rb loads.

And I agree with SST’s. Some guys swear by them. As for me and my 7 rifled slug guns, only one shot decent groups at 50 yards, and that was with the reduced recoil load.


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[megasupermagnum]

I did say that I am not an expert. I stand corrected, for the most part. Thanks for the information. But, I can say, without much fear of contradiction, that the gun in question was NOT designed for undersized musket balls, fired inside plastic shotgun wads not designed for rifled barrels. Surely you would agree (or at least, not disagree) with that. That was the substance of my point, though I certainly admit that I did not really make that clear.

As for the relative accuracy, or lack thereof, of sabot slugs, I cannot speak to that...so I'll certainly take your word for it. BORE sized round balls are most definitely a different matter - and surely you would not argue that.

I can't argue with that, but I will say I don't think a rifled shotgun barrel has ever been designed for anything. As far as I know, rifled shotguns came out when rifled slugs were still king for deer hunting. If I were to design a rifled barrel to shoot rifled slugs, I would probably do a very shallow, and very slow rifling barrel. That's not what happened. Instead they were typical rifle depth, about .005" deep rifling, and in a relatively fast twist (for big bores) at 1:36". My guess is they rifled a barrel with what they had, found it worked, and called it good. It's just rifling in a shotgun barrel, with no more development past that, even today. No throat's, no crowns, and many aren't any thicker than a regular shotgun barrel. Eventually with the 50 caliber bullets, a lot of shotguns went to 1:28" twist (and even faster in 20 gauge), but I've had just as good or better accuracy from my 1:35" twist ultra slug hunter.

Instead shotgun slugs have always been developed for the gun, the gun was never developed for the ammo. I wish we could get 1:72 twist barrels to shoot these round balls and other slugs, but we cant. I wish we could get a slug gun built with a proper throat, but we cant. I wish we could just get a modified choke with a 1:72 twist that is both accurate with slugs, and still patterns shot well. Still, these faster twists shoot just fine with cast slugs, at least as good as the ammo that was developed for them. In reality shotgun slugs have 50% been developed to sell, not to perform. Hornady SST's are great on paper, 2000 fps sounds good and must sell good, yet they don't shoot for squat, and Hornady doesn't care. My point is there is no development. Someone decades ago pulled a rifling cutter through a shotgun barrel, and that's as far as development ever got.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I wish we could just get a modified choke with a 1:72 twist that is both accurate with slugs, and still patterns shot well.

I've been thinking about such a choke as well, as I would like to see if it can stabilize my sleeved slugs.
The plan is to mill or EDM the rifling in a 3-1/2" long external choke for my Beretta 682.
If things work as planned, the rifling will be an 8-sided, round cornered, polygon with a groove "depth" about .008"
(basically a mix of true cylinder and modified)
The total length of rifling will be 3". I hope it will be enough to start the slug rotating - and not enough to do the same to a shotload.

I'm not quite sure if the rifling should be left- or right hand. I don't want the choke to come lose, but I also don't want for the slugs
to tighten it to a point where it locks up completely. Has anybody any experience if this could be a problem?

[commando223]

I just got a Savage 220 looking for more slug load ideas.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Capt> I don't see a rifled choke tube be influenced very much by the torque that a slug could possibly generate as it passes thru. I think it will stay put.

As far as Rifled Shotgun Barrels. IMHO they cease being shotguns and start being .73 caliber or ?20 ga. Rifles instead of shotguns as soon as the barrel is changed out for a rifled one. As long as the slug is forced to rotate by the rifling, either by direct contact with the slug or contact with a wad that imparts spin to the slug,,, then it's a rifle.

Accuracy would be more contingent on the correct amount of spin needed to stabilize any given slug design, (all are probably different just like spin rates for different bullets are different?) and if the twist rate of the barrel could provide the correct spin for that slug. Slugs are all short and fat, implying the need for a Slower Twist Barrel. 1:36 or around that being most common.

My A5 with Hastings Rifled Barrel shot so well with STI Sabots and Brass Inserts it was scary. See Pics

I also have a Rifled Barrel that fits M500's but it didn't shoot the same loads as well as the A5 did. By the same token it wasn't that bad either. It was more like 2" at 50 yards with iron sights. I feel the Iron Sights might have been the limiting factor there.

Lots of variables here and I'm kind of back at my STI Sabot Slugs being teh most accurate projectile I have fired from Rifled barrels.

Smooth bores are what I'm working on now. My A5 with the "Buck Special" Barrel with sights is a smooth bore with essentially a IC choke in the barrel at the muzzle. It shoots certain types of slugs well and others are all over the place. My Vang Comped barrels pattern buckshot really well No joke 7" at 25 yards! but don't shoot Lee Slugs worth a hoot. This is because of the back boring of the barrel to .745 makes them too loose in the bore and they just wobble down and what ever way they are pointed when they hit the Choke at the end of the barrel is which way they go. No way to predict that.

This is why I was looking at Jug Choking my Monkeyberg barrel. it would have been a consistent .729 then opened up .015
for 2" and then back to .729 for the last 1/2" at the muzzle. Problem is it won't fit thru the spindle of my lathe so It is going to get threaded for choke tubes and I'll run an IC choke tube. This should deliver an acceptable Buckshot pattern and shoot Lee Slugs better. So we'll see.

The whole Idea with the Lee Slugs for volume shooting is that they are the cheapest slugs to load there is. And they should work?

Randy