Match Champion shoots high

[Thumbcocker]

I love this gun. Doesn't lead. Locks up tight. Good balance. Problem is it hits about 3" high at 25 yards. Load is a 160 grain rnfp over 13.5 of 2400.

This gun doesn't have the easy change sights of the standard GP100.

Anyone else have this problem? Suggestions welcome.

[44MAG#1]

Is that off sandbags? Is that offhand? Do you intend to use that load as your working or business load? If not why worry about it now until you have a working or business load? Have you seen what distance it is sighted? Maybe 60 to 75 yards?
Some questions one needs to mull over.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

So you have the rear sight bottomed out? Try a lighter loading with that boolit. Maybe some AA 7 or HS 6 or HP 38. Or try a 125 gr. boolit. Or try a 6 o clock hold.

[Gus Youmans]

Thumbcocker,

General rule of thumb, to lower the point of impact on a fixed sight gun use a faster load, a lighter bullet or a combination of the two. I would try a 125 grain bullet and see how it does.

Gus Youmans

[BRobertson]

Novak Sights sells an adjustable rear sight replacement for the factory sight on the Match Champions and the Wiley Clapp 3” versions
Also replacement tritium front and rear sights for the Wiley Clapp SP 101

[falmike]

I wonder if sights are set for a six o’clock hold

[Thumbcocker]

Rear sight is bottomed out. Standing 2 hand hold. Front sight has fiber optic insert (hate them). I am beginning to think it was set up for 125 grain boolits. I really like the 160 rnfp. With 2400 because it shoots pretty well in multiple guns. Cest le vie.

[slughammer]

3 inches at 25 yards translates to about .019-.023 for a 6" to 7" sight radius.

Can you push the rear sight assy down at all or is it bottomed to the frame? (Elevation screw could be too long compared to the tapped hole depth).

Maybe remove the rear sight assy and check the bottom of the sight and the frame for burrs.

Maybe file the bottom of the sight to get that .020 or the top edge of the blade.

Otherwise I would zero my favorite 38 load, check how much adjustment is remaining and then make a decision about a front sight height that would work for both loads.

Regards - Slughammer

Edited to add, I have seen black fiber optic rod. You can eliminate the bright fiber if you need to.

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[358429]

What is your group size at 25 yards?

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[44MAG#1]

Rear sight is bottomed out. Standing 2 hand hold. Front sight has fiber optic insert (hate them). I am beginning to think it was set up for 125 grain boolits. I really like the 160 rnfp. With 2400 because it shoots pretty well in multiple guns. Cest le vie.

At what distance is it sighted? 60 to 75 yards maybe? If it was I would leave it alone if I want to use that load.

[smithnframe]

Aim low!

[Valley-Shooter]

I wonder if sights are set for a six o’clock holdThat's the first thing that I thought of. Most of my pistols are adjusted for the 6 o'clock hold.

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[Bigslug]

Three inches high at 25 yards? Have you tried it at 50? If your bullet is dropping in to something close to zero, as opposed to hitting even higher, I'd probably consider it a good thing and leave it be. With the sight bottomed out, this would give you some LONG range capability

Other option is to find a taller front sight.

[Thumbcocker]

Looks like Dawson Precision offers a .10 wide replacement. Just need to measure. Possible happy dance here.

[charlie b]

Unless I was bullseye shooting I'd call that good and adjust aim when field shooting.

As others pointed out, when bullseye shooting I usually hold at 6 o'clock so you might be good there too given the size of a 25yd target.

[Earlwb]

They usually have the competition guns setup for a certain bullet weight and propellant load. For many it is a minimum load for targets sometimes they even go as far as barely being able to get the bullets out of the barrel. In some competitions they state what the minimum load requirement is, others not so much. Then for competitions like the bowling pin contests, they tend to go for much more power in order to ensure the pins get knocked off of the table. But if your shooting high then you likely need to reduce the propellant load used a little or maybe change the bullet weight or even both. Heck even standard factory guns can have the same issue. The .45 Colt SAA types of revolvers is one example. The early ones tend to be way off with modern ammo as they were setup for a full black powder charge and a 250 grain bullet thus they shoot way off using modern loads. Did your gun come with any instructions mentioning the load data or anything to use?

[GooseGestapo]

Switching to a 125gr bullet will lower POI.
13.5 with a 158-160gr bullet has been a great performer for me too.
Only other choice is to lightly file down the top of the rear sight.
Personally I’d go with the Novak sights.

But, then again I wouldn’t be shooting a Ruger, either.

[megasupermagnum]

This is what you need. I use and recommend the .315" tall X .100" wide patridge. This allows adjustments in my 5" GP100 from 158 gr 38 specials, all the way to the 220 gr 357 magnum boomers. It should have plenty of adjustment for lighter loads too, but I have never shot bullets lighter than 158gr. Edit: now that I think of it, I did shoot .360" round balls with poof loads, and there was plenty of adjustment for those.

https://dawsonprecision.com/novak-cut-black-front-sights/

[Thumbcocker]

This is what you need. I use and recommend the .315" tall X .100" wide patridge. This allows adjustments in my 5" GP100 from 158 gr 38 specials, all the way to the 220 gr 357 magnum boomers. It should have plenty of adjustment for lighter loads too, but I have never shot bullets lighter than 158gr. Edit: now that I think of it, I did shoot .360" round balls with poof loads, and there was plenty of adjustment for those.

https://dawsonprecision.com/novak-cut-black-front-sights/

Just ordered one. Thanks.

[ddixie884]

Three inches high at 25 yards? Have you tried it at 50? If your bullet is dropping in to something close to zero, as opposed to hitting even higher, I'd probably consider it a good thing and leave it be. With the sight bottomed out, this would give you some LONG range capability

Other option is to find a taller front sight.

Me too......

[marek313]

I love my MC but I dont think its unusual for POI to change with different loads. Shooting 160gr RNFP with H110 and magnum brass in my gun always shoots high left but when i go down to 130gr RN in 38S brass is spot on so i dont bother adjusting the sights. I shoot mostly 38S and medium load 357s and only few full magnum loads so I'm fine with that.

[Golfswithwolves]

"Aim low boys, they're ridin' Shetland ponies"

[robertbank]

The Match Champion was originally aimed at IPSC, USPSA, ICORE and IDPA shooters. Typically they use 158 gr bullets not 125 gr and Ruger would know that. The gun would be set up for POA POC not a six o'clock hold. Given the gun is mass produced I doubt the installation of the sights would vary from gun to gun.

With this in mind I am more inclined to think the issue is with the shooter not the gun. I would bench rest the gun before I did anything. Shooting Freestyle while standing would not seem to be definitive enough evidence to start making sight changes before spending some time on the bench.

Take Care

Bob
ps I just recently bought the MC in 10MM. Thankfully Ruger has gone back to the easily replaceable front sights of the Standard GP-100 in 38/357 Mag. I also have the latter gun where I have installed reduced hammer/trigger springs and added shims on the trigger and hammer. The MC in 38/357mag has all those goodies installed but lacks the replaceable front sight option.

[slughammer]

Just wondering about this. Since the speed games are shot off hand why would someone care about where the gun shoots off a rest? Plus since gilt edge accuracy doesn't matter either why would one be concerned?
Seriously is there something I am missing? The USPSA/IPSC target A area is 5 7/8 inches wide by 11 inches tall and an IDPA target is 8 inch circle high score ring if he was a first rate shooter that gun would win for him if he were that good.
Just wondering.Accuracy totally matters to play these games at a certain level.

Imagine shooting 6 inch targets with a gun that shoots 6 inch groups. The only reliable hits will be with perfect sight alignment when the shot breaks.

Now imagine shooting the 6 inch targets with a gun that shoots 1 inch groups. The reliable hits will be with 5 inches of sight alignment when the shot breaks.

To play these games with speed your gun needs to hit when the sights are on and it needs to miss when the sights are off.

I will add that Thumbcocker probably doesn't play these games, but is certainly cable of fine shooting when standing on his hind two. He knows where he wants his gun to hit.

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[robertbank]

Just wondering about this. Since the speed games are shot off hand why would someone care about where the gun shoots off a rest? Plus since gilt edge accuracy doesn't matter either why would one be concerned?
Seriously is there something I am missing? The USPSA/IPSC target A area is 5 7/8 inches wide by 11 inches tall and an IDPA target is 8 inch circle high score ring if he was a first rate shooter that gun would win for him if he were that good.
Just wondering.

I suggested trying the gun off a rest to eliminate the human factor. The idea being to see where the sights are indeed aligned to. By shooting off a bench you are trying to eliminate the human factor. I am sure the OP is an excellent shot but why not eliminate his abilities or lack thereof by shooting off a rest. If the gun then shoots 3" high consistently then you can move on to other variables that might be the cause.

In action shooting, as Slughammer has outlined, requires POA/POC sights. Can you imagine trying to shoot into a 4" circle, at speed, at 10 yards, or an 8" circle at 20 yards with a revolver set for a 6" hold?

Given his load the gun sights really are off a lot. IDPA for example requires a load to meet a minimum 105PF (Vel x Bullet weight/1000). This equates to a min. vel of 665fps for a 158 gr bullet. IDPA a few years ago tested 17 factory loadings for the 38spl cartridge. The PF ranged from 95 to 115. They set the requirement for Stock Revolver Division at 105.

I bring this up because the OP's gun sights appear to be off more than 3" high at 25 yards given the load he describes. I would be interested to hear how far off the sights are using Standard 38spl cartridges. His rear sight is adjustable and I would think he should be able to set his sights to POA/POC within the range of the adjustments.

If after benching the gun his gun is still shooting 3" high with his load or even higher using say 39spl factory loadings I would suggest there is an issue with the gun. I doubt different rear sights are going to correct his problem as the different manufacturers would be likely making their sights within the same parameters as Ruger does for that particular gun, just saying.

Your mileage may well vary. Just offering up an opinion.

Take Care

Bob
ps I would check the rear sight to ensure it is moving as it should when you are making adjustments. If a spring is missing in the rear sight it may not be moving when you turn the adjustment screws.

[robertbank]

44Mag#1 The front sight on the MC 38/357mag is the same for all of these guns and they sit on the cast frames in dove tails as do the rear sights for the OP's guns. The "blade" holds a FO rod. The Rear and Front sights are the same for all copies of this gun. There is no chance the front sight is a "to high or to low". If the rear sight is missing a spring or the adjustment screws are stripped and the sight is not moving when the adjustment screws are turned then you have a sight problem. Other than that the sight pkg should be able to move within the parameters of the designed use of the gun.

I would suggest, given the way these guns are machined by computer controlled CNC equipment the chance the frame of the gun is out of spec and the dovetail cuts are so out of spec the sights would be off as much as described are slim and none.

In our examples of action shooting the IDPA head box consists of a five inch square with a 4" Down Zero zone. A shot outside of the circle adds one second to the time a miss five seconds. The maximum distance a head shot may be required is 10 yards. A gun with a 6" hold would turn the sport into some form of bullseye shooting which is not the intention of the sport. Frankly, it is bad enough when you run into this stage requirement shooting a pistol caliber carbine with an Optic Sight sitting 3" above the bore and sighted in for 20 yards.

The rear sight may have a problem it is possible. Other than that ....

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

Well I concede. You are right. Sorry to have taken up you time.

[robertbank]

Well I concede. You are right. Sorry to have taken up you time.

ok, just trying to help our OP. You have to deal with the gun he has and there are not that many variables as we both recognized.

Tale Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

ok, just trying to help our OP. You have to deal with the gun he has and there are not that many variables as we both recognized.

Tale Care

Bob

I guess I am just a simpleton. I shoot with guns slightly high at 25 yards and at times more than slightly high. Shoot at plain pieces of paper and cardboard and have no trouble doing that at 25 yards, 50 yards and 100 yards. These have no bullseyes to aim at just know where the center is and shoot.
So I am just talking out of turn and I apologize for it.
Guess I am just a silly old man.

[robertbank]

That would make two silly old men.:>)

The OP should check his rear sight though to make sure it is working OK. This would eliminate one of the concerns.

Take Care

Bob

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for all the comments. I think you all are too generous about my shooting abilities. Like I have said before a lot of targets get shot that I don't take pictures of. If you were at the range with me on a not so good shooting day you would be treated to a display of me firing a shot and then cursing. On a good day you would see the "fat guy happy dance ". I am not sure which would disturb you more.

My shooting style is probably different from many here because I was never formally trained by anyone. I devoured every article I could get my hands on that had anything to do with hitting with a handgun and especially hunting with handguns.

I eventually settled on having my sights set to where the boolit hits what front sight is covering. This is what works for me. I don't want to do a bunch of mental gymnastics about the sight picture when I am getting ready to shoot. This allows me to focus on sight picture and trigger.

This gun will shoot to sights with a lighter boolit. Lee 125 rnfp over 4.0 of promo for example. See pic. Back when money was scarce and student loan payments were many I used multiple loads per caliber. Upon marriage to a woman with a full time job and a kindly disposition more guns were acquired. I then moved to a magnum loads in magnum guns special loads in special guns mindset.

The GP will group well with the 13.5 of 2400 load just high. I have .38 special guns for lighter loads.

I have found that Ruger double action guns seem to have sight issues more often. My sp101 in .327 shot low until the front sight was carefully filed down. Now it is a well behaved little creature. I don't think Ruger sights having issues is new. I have fired 2 old model. 44s that both shoot high at 25 yards with magnum loads. Rear sight bottomed out.

I do think that in today's market many guns are sighted in to be "close enough " at 7-10 yards. I don't think this is fair to the gun or the consumer but I am not in charge.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210622/4dc2f7b12d2b52f046f4324fab43eb13.jpg

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[robertbank]

Thumcocker with all do respect if you really want to know how your gun is performing take yourself out of the equation. I do that every time I decide to try a different bullet/load combination. By doing so I eliminate any flinching, twitching or breathing by me that may cause the sights to move as I pull the trigger. Once I am putting rounds where I was aiming I am set. After that the misses are on me not the gun.

I know accomplished bullseye shooters who are capable of shooting and setting their sights in at 25 yards freestyle but they are few and far between. I set aside my ego years ago. I know what I am now capable of and what I am not. I now sight my guns in at 15 yards because I now am not capable of seeing a 1" black spot on a target at 25 yards. I dial my Gp-100 in at 15 yards and know for what I shoot, IDPA, I am good out to 35 yards by using a little Kentucky windage.

Good licj with your revolver the GP-100 is an amazing design.

Take Care

Bob

[contender1]

I own a pair of Ruger MC handguns. One is 38/357 & the other a 10mm.

I respectfully disagree with robertbank in the following; "The front sight on the MC 38/357mag is the same for all of these guns"

Both of my guns wear a different front sight design.
Now,, I haven't measured the HEIGHT of my sights, to see if there is a difference in that measurement.

But the OP has already ordered a replacement front sight so let's hope it cures his ills.

[robertbank]

I own a pair of Ruger MC handguns. One is 38/357 & the other a 10mm.

I respectfully disagree with robertbank in the following; "The front sight on the MC 38/357mag is the same for all of these guns"

Both of my guns wear a different front sight design.
Now,, I haven't measured the HEIGHT of my sights, to see if there is a difference in that measurement.

But the OP has already ordered a replacement front sight so let's hope it cures his ills.

To my knowledge there are only three types of factory sights for today's GP-100. The kind you can quickly replace via a front pin (Ramp and FO) and the dovetail version consisting of the FO. I have the former two versions on my 38spl/.357 and my 10MM version. Not sure what is on the .22LR.

I am not sure why Ruger went with a Dovetail version for the MC in 9MM. Costs and/or application maybe. The MC 10MM has the easily changed version with the pin .

Take Care

Bob

[Jtarm]

Well the name “Match Champion” implies competition.

The only game I see it particularly suited for is IDPA, which is generally shot with cream puff 158 grain .38 specials, but those would shoot even higher. Maybe it’s regulated for the white-box 130-grain FMJ.

More likely they didn’t spend a lot of time regulating sights and figure 3” high at 25 was good enough.

[robertbank]

Well the name “Match Champion” implies competition.

The only game I see it particularly suited for is IDPA, which is generally shot with cream puff 158 grain .38 specials, but those would shoot even higher. Maybe it’s regulated for the white-box 130-grain FMJ.

More likely they didn’t spend a lot of time regulating sights and figure 3” high at 25 was good enough.

Until it is benched who knows where the gun is shooting. I have the same gun in 10MM and it shoots POA out to 25 yards I assume. At 15 yards it is spot on which is the yardage my experienced eyes seem to be comfortable establishing a good sighting scenario.

The MC was indeed designed for IDPA and ICORE and I assume a PIN sport. Not sure on the latter given my lack of experience with pins. My 38spl/.357mag Gp-100 shoots POA as well. The gun likely is regulated...if indeed Ruger spends anytime concerned to shoot 158gr 38spl loads. The PF for 38spl is 105 for IDPA so most of us that shoot that Division use 158 gr Jacketed rounds. Lead bullets tend to bring along added smoke that can be a problem shooting some stages. Distances are 29 yards for scenario stages and out to 35 yards for Standard Exercises.

Take Care

Bob
ps Gun worked in USPSA/IPSC until the recent rule changes allowing 9MM guns with 8 rd cylinders.