bedbugbilly
06-19-2021, 04:00 PM
I have a number of projects going on this summer one of which is getting loads developed for my Henry Big Boy .357 Steel Rifle and one which will also work in my Uberti 357 idealy the same load. Im going to be using both the Lee 358-125 and the 358-158 round nose flat poing in 357 brass.
But . . . today, I got to thinking about the many molds I have accumulated. One of my favorites in 38 Special is the Lyman/Ideal 358-311 158 grain round nose. I load it over 3.5 grains of Bulls Eye and it shoots great out of my S & W 5 M & P as well as the Bisley.
While my 357 Henry seems to prefer the Lee round nose flat point in a 357 casing as far as feeding over 38 Special, I got to thinking if perhaps the 358-311 might feed O.K. in 38 brass so just for kicks, I loaded up a half a dozen dummy rounds to try. This is where I discovered something that maybe Im not grasping something or just getting too old?
Keep these figures in mind. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (38 special) lists the trim length of the cartridge to be 1.149 (their recommendations). In their data list for the 3580311, they indicate that the COAL as 1.550.
First off Im not high tech nor a competition shooter and my 38 specials are primarily used for plinking. I have always used range brass with mixed headstamps and have NEVER trimmed a 38 Special. I normally cast with "range lead" that I buy from folks on this site. My Lyman DC 358-311 drops a bullet that is a traditional 38 special slug and it is almost a perfect clone of the ones that fall from my original Winchester 38 S & W single cavity mold. In seating the 358-311, I seat the boolit so the case mouth is almost covering the crimp groove and just under the top band then put a moderate roll crimp on them.
So . . . I loaded up my dummy rounds 6 of them and then measured the cartridge overall length of them with my digital calipers just so I would know what it was in terms of feeding in the Henry if they worked. My dummy rounds averaged 1.520 for cartridge overall length several were 1.521 and several were 1.5.19 according to my calipers. I took them into my office and took a look at the Lyman CBH just to review the loading data as its been a while since I loaded up 38 special if I use the same loading in both the revolver and the rifle I dont really want to push them hard at max or near max loading data and Im either going to use Bulls Eye or Red Dot.
It was while I was doing this that I caught the handbooks listing for COAL they show that the 358-311 should have a COAL of 1.550???? Clearly .030 LONGER than what mine measure. O.K. I went out and just reached into my box of 38 special range brass and pulled out a casing and measured it it was 1.140 a R-P headstamp and as far as I know, none of the range brass has ever been trimmed and in fact what is in my tote that I pull from is probably from at least 10 different sources over the years and all mixed in together.
I know that this is no big deal and it will all shoot just fine it has for many years. But . . . given my measurements even if my brass were 1.149 as they list to trim it to with my 358-311 boolit, seated to the crimp line and roll crimped they would have a COAL of 1.529 - .021 SHORTER than what the Lyman CBH lists for the COAL of 1.550?
Again this is no biggie nor a problem but I am curious. The 358-311 design has been around since the beginning of the 38 special cartridge and it has always been one of the standard boolits for the 38 special. I have owned probably five 358-311 molds over the years single cavity and double cavity both Ideal and Lyman and I have never noticed a difference in the boolits they drop. I realize that there can be a build up of tolerances where the case mouth falls on the crimp groove how much crimp and certainly case length. But . . . just looking at what I measured, .021 difference in COAL seems like it is more than a build up of tolerances? Did measurements change at the factory over the years plus differences in cutting cherries for the cavity that would be off enough so that the Lyman CBHs sample boolit would be that much different in measurement (location of crimp groove?)?
My 3.5 gr. load of Bulls Eye with the 358-311 is no where near the 4.2 max. load recommended so it certainly isnt a problem with the range brass I use that is a bit shorter than what they show in the handbook its just one of those things that I noticed today that I never have before and I am wondering how they come up with their 1.550 COAL when if my brass actually matched their stated trim length, how my completed loads with the same boolit would end up .021 shorter than their measurement?
Can anyone explain or maybe I nee to go take a nap an look at this again with rested eyes? LOL
But . . . today, I got to thinking about the many molds I have accumulated. One of my favorites in 38 Special is the Lyman/Ideal 358-311 158 grain round nose. I load it over 3.5 grains of Bulls Eye and it shoots great out of my S & W 5 M & P as well as the Bisley.
While my 357 Henry seems to prefer the Lee round nose flat point in a 357 casing as far as feeding over 38 Special, I got to thinking if perhaps the 358-311 might feed O.K. in 38 brass so just for kicks, I loaded up a half a dozen dummy rounds to try. This is where I discovered something that maybe Im not grasping something or just getting too old?
Keep these figures in mind. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (38 special) lists the trim length of the cartridge to be 1.149 (their recommendations). In their data list for the 3580311, they indicate that the COAL as 1.550.
First off Im not high tech nor a competition shooter and my 38 specials are primarily used for plinking. I have always used range brass with mixed headstamps and have NEVER trimmed a 38 Special. I normally cast with "range lead" that I buy from folks on this site. My Lyman DC 358-311 drops a bullet that is a traditional 38 special slug and it is almost a perfect clone of the ones that fall from my original Winchester 38 S & W single cavity mold. In seating the 358-311, I seat the boolit so the case mouth is almost covering the crimp groove and just under the top band then put a moderate roll crimp on them.
So . . . I loaded up my dummy rounds 6 of them and then measured the cartridge overall length of them with my digital calipers just so I would know what it was in terms of feeding in the Henry if they worked. My dummy rounds averaged 1.520 for cartridge overall length several were 1.521 and several were 1.5.19 according to my calipers. I took them into my office and took a look at the Lyman CBH just to review the loading data as its been a while since I loaded up 38 special if I use the same loading in both the revolver and the rifle I dont really want to push them hard at max or near max loading data and Im either going to use Bulls Eye or Red Dot.
It was while I was doing this that I caught the handbooks listing for COAL they show that the 358-311 should have a COAL of 1.550???? Clearly .030 LONGER than what mine measure. O.K. I went out and just reached into my box of 38 special range brass and pulled out a casing and measured it it was 1.140 a R-P headstamp and as far as I know, none of the range brass has ever been trimmed and in fact what is in my tote that I pull from is probably from at least 10 different sources over the years and all mixed in together.
I know that this is no big deal and it will all shoot just fine it has for many years. But . . . given my measurements even if my brass were 1.149 as they list to trim it to with my 358-311 boolit, seated to the crimp line and roll crimped they would have a COAL of 1.529 - .021 SHORTER than what the Lyman CBH lists for the COAL of 1.550?
Again this is no biggie nor a problem but I am curious. The 358-311 design has been around since the beginning of the 38 special cartridge and it has always been one of the standard boolits for the 38 special. I have owned probably five 358-311 molds over the years single cavity and double cavity both Ideal and Lyman and I have never noticed a difference in the boolits they drop. I realize that there can be a build up of tolerances where the case mouth falls on the crimp groove how much crimp and certainly case length. But . . . just looking at what I measured, .021 difference in COAL seems like it is more than a build up of tolerances? Did measurements change at the factory over the years plus differences in cutting cherries for the cavity that would be off enough so that the Lyman CBHs sample boolit would be that much different in measurement (location of crimp groove?)?
My 3.5 gr. load of Bulls Eye with the 358-311 is no where near the 4.2 max. load recommended so it certainly isnt a problem with the range brass I use that is a bit shorter than what they show in the handbook its just one of those things that I noticed today that I never have before and I am wondering how they come up with their 1.550 COAL when if my brass actually matched their stated trim length, how my completed loads with the same boolit would end up .021 shorter than their measurement?
Can anyone explain or maybe I nee to go take a nap an look at this again with rested eyes? LOL