How Do I Anneal A Batch Of .40 S&W to 750-Degrees Reliably?

[Liberty1776]

I want to soften, say, 100-200 .40 S&W shells for reforming to something else. I think I need to heat them to about 750 degrees F.

One way to anneal is to put them in a self-cleaning oven and let it run its cleaning cycle. Unfortunately, we don't own a self-cleaning oven.

Any ideas short of a $4,000 lab oven...

...or a $1400 machinist's heat treating oven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST3yf-H51Hg

http://barzindustrial.com/productimages/hsduplex.pdf

...or a $585 jewelry melting kiln https://smile.amazon.com/Rapidfire-Digital-Programmable-Controller-Beadmaking/dp/B00CUKD1UY/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=heat+treating+oven&qid=1623879826&sr=8-5

...would be appreciated.

Put the shells in a cast iron skillet and cook them on a stove until they seem hot enough? Point a laser thermometer at them?

Drop them in an empty Lee lead pot and cook them?

Ideas?

[Conditor22]

clean casting pot set to the desired temp and put in the brass.

cover pot to keep the heat in

[OldBearHair]

I do believe that the best thing for you to do would be to go to the "Forum" and read about "How to anneal brass cases. But, the most important thing is that you must not anneal the whole cases in an oven. Please do not be offended. No harm meant. If you are a "newby" here, welcome to the forum.

[OldBearHair]

I did not catch the first thing you said about reforming to something else, but I would still not want to get the bases of the brass annealed. But, I have no experience with that.

[rancher1913]

old bear hair made the best comment, "search brass annealing on the forum". the search bar can be your best friend.

heres a hint, use your lead pot.

[zarrinvz24]

With pistol brass it’s best to try and trade it to someone for the brass you really want. Are you trying to form 357sig?

[wilecoyote]

With pistol brass it’s best to try and trade it to someone for the brass you really want. Are you trying to form 357sig?
no_
please:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?426793-Swage-240-gr-44-Mag-Jacketed-Bullets-from-40-S-amp-W-Brass-Using-7x57mm-Mauser-Die&p=5208976#post5208976

[Mk42gunner]

To anneal the whole case, you could float them on top of your lead pot to do a few at a time. Or you could heat the whole case with a propane torch.

Not very scientific, but it would soften the brass. For more control you could use some tempilac for closer control of the heating process.

Robert

[zarrinvz24]

Is the OP trying to swage them into jacketed bullets? It was not specified, and seemed to me that OP was going to case form from 40 to another caliber. Perhaps I misread? This is the case forming section though and not the swaging sub-forum.

[Liberty1776]

Never mind. I thought my question was properly posed to the Case Forming/Re-Forming thread. I chose...poorly.

But I do desire to anneal the entire .40 case -- including and especially the rim -- because it's going to become a .44 Mag jacketed soft point bullet after swaging.

I'll go away quietly.

[Jim22]

Never mind. I thought my question was properly posed to the Case Forming/Re-Forming thread. I chose...poorly.

But I do desire to anneal the entire .40 case -- including and especially the rim -- because it's going to become a .44 Mag jacketed soft point bullet after swaging.

I'll go away quietly.

Don't. The comments were meant to help. By saying you want to anneal the entire case you have helped them help you.

[OldBearHair]

Now I finally understand that you need to anneal the whole case for a jacket. On a previous post, I described how I annealed 22 brass before beginning stepping them up to just over 308 diameter in several steps and after each step up, by using DIY rods fitted to drive into the brass filled with water. The brass would then slide off the rod easily. The reason that I mention this is that a very small percentage was lost in the process. Should you want to size the 40s down in more than one step, then anneal each time.

[nicholst55]

Don't go away! Go to the Swaging subforum and ask there!

[country gent]

One way is to get out an old metal bucket. put a couple layers of charcoal briquettes in to then light add the brass wrapped in aluminum foil (add some strips of paper to burn off oxygen and reduce scale) add a couple more layers of briquettes and let burn till out and cool. This will soften the thicker heads and rims.

[JimB..]

Clean your Lee pot and fill it with brass.

Find the swaging subforum, it’s full of good info.

[Liberty1776]

I started at the Swaging Forum. I thought annealing wisdom would be at the Case Forming forum.

Here's my ".44 Mag Jacketed Soft Points From Trimmed .40 S&W Brass" thread in the Swaging Forum.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?426793-Swage-240-gr-44-Mag-Jacketed-Bullets-from-40-S-amp-W-Brass-Using-7x57mm-Mauser-Die

All I wanted to know is the cheapest, fasted way to soften brass cases so they emulate a copper jacket.

[Liberty1776]

To anneal the whole case, you could float them on top of your lead pot to do a few at a time. Or you could heat the whole case with a propane torch.

Not very scientific, but it would soften the brass. For more control you could use some tempilac for closer control of the heating process.

Robert

I put a bunch of .40's into a cast iron skillet and blasted them with a propane torch. No idea if I hit the annealing temp.

Later, I purchased an expensive bottle of 750-degree Tempilaq. It was disappointing to use. I'll try the floating-on-molten-lead method next time. At least I'll know how hot the lead is....

I made some .44 Mag JSP slugs successfully. Loaded and shot some. I just don't know if the brass jacket was soft enough not to damage my Marlin's rifle bore.

[Liberty1776]

old bear hair made the best comment, "search brass annealing on the forum". the search bar can be your best friend.

heres a hint, use your lead pot.

I did a search. The word "anneal" appears 2500 times on this website. Most returns don't answer my question at all.

[Omega]

I did a search. The word "anneal" appears 2500 times on this website. Most returns don't answer my question at all.

There is a whole section for swaging : https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?41-Swaging

Here is the relevant thread: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103824-Annealing-Jackets

I enjoyed your other post, and especially your bullet board, I have previously seen other threads explaining the process, and even acquired the appropriate dies. When I did mine, though I only did a few, I used my pot to anneal the brass, and it worked pretty good, and I needed to cast the cores anyway.

[rancher1913]

dont just use one word, ask the search bar a question like "best way to anneal for swagging", you got to be as specific as possible.

take an empty lead pot, fill it half full of brass, turn it on and when the brass is glowing turn it off and dump it out. does about 20 or so big calibers and a crap ton of 22's, its not as fast as a dedicated kiln but it works.

[Liberty1776]

take an empty lead pot, fill it half full of brass, turn it on and when the brass is glowing turn it off and dump it out. does about 20 or so big calibers and a crap ton of 22's, its not as fast as a dedicated kiln but it works.


This, I can do. I have two lead pots. Thanks.

[notenoughguns]

I use a hot plate or an old electric stove burner ( flat element style ) and heat till glowing red . I make 45 and .458 with the same case but I put the core in first and fuse it to the jacket ( of course my cases don't glow red ) . I swag my up and you sage yours down only difference .

[Wayne Smith]

I bought a 6" section of pipe threaded on each end, ends to screw on, and filled it with 40 S&W brass and dropped it in my firepit when the fire was going. Worked fine. BTW - trim to length prior to annealing - they are way too soft to cut well after.

[para45lda]

I used an old coffee can. Put it on my grill and shut the lid. I would also suggest a thermometer and a timer as well.

Mine came out dead soft. Cleaned up with lemi-shine and dawn

Good luck!!

Wes

[444ttd]

i don't make jacketed bullets, but here's a suggestion.....

https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/frankenmausers-40-s-w-444-reloads.85261/

[wilecoyote]

...thanks!
go figure if F.M.hadn't already taken care of it:smile: ...

[rbuck351]

I just put them into a lead melting pot and put them in the wood stove for a while and they come out dead soft. You could put the pot full of brass in a camp fire and when they glow a light red in low light they are done.

[Liberty1776]

I just put them into a lead melting pot and put them in the wood stove for a while and they come out dead soft. You could put the pot full of brass in a camp fire and when they glow a light red in low light they are done.

Sounds like the perfect project for an evening. I have a nice fire pit I could get going. And I have a selection of cast iron pots for lead melting.

So what if it's 108 at 9:45 PM in Arizona? I could float in the pool with an appropriate beverage, and watch the fire. Good idea.

[Intel6]

Just to add to this thread. I anneal my cases to make bullets by setting them mouth down on a paving brick (I use the 50 rd plastic trays) and then hit them with a weed burning torch until they start to glow red. They can end up scaly but since I wet clean with pins it doesn't matter. This way I can get lots of cases done quickly and I know they are nice and soft.

Some pictures since they are always good.


I make .40 bullets out of 9mm cases mainly for my 10mm's and .44 Mag bullets out of .40 cases.

In the pic below L to R:

300 gr. JHP for the .44 mag made out of a 10mm case with dual cannelures for loading long in my Redhawk.

250 gr. JHP for .44 Mag made from .40 case with cannelure for loading long.

210 gr. softpoint with cannelure for loading long in my 10mm revolver.

195 gr. JHP with dual cannelures.


285249


I also make .458" bullets for my .458 SOCOM from .45 ACP cases and cut down .308 cases.

Below is a 350 gr. JHP made from a .45 ACP case with cannelure and the same loaded in a SOCOM case.


285246


Here is a 405 gr. JHP with cannelure made from a cut down .308 case and the loaded round.


285247


I have also made lighter weight .458" bullets using the same .40 case and bullet I use for the 250 gr. .44 mag bullets but swaging them in the .458" dies resulting in .458" 250 gr. JHP bullets (using a large HP pin). I then size them down in Lee push through dies and cannelure them for loading in .45 ACP/AR and .45 Colt.

You can see a moon clip of the .250 gr. JHP's with my 1955 Target.


285248

[1hole]

Case heads are the weak point of our ammo. Cases are factory made/tempered to have hard, strong heads that can be expected to safely resist and support the immense pressures of firing.

ONLY the case mouth should be annealed, and that not to exceed about 1/8" or less. Heating brass to any visible red glow is overheating. Overheating makes the metal dead soft and destroys "spring back" so all meaningful bullet grip is lost.

Dead soft cases cannot be re-hardened; they should be discarded or used for swagged bullet jackets.

[Mk42gunner]

I've been kind of interested in using cases for bullet jackets since I read about it; in a "Gee that's neat, but I'll probably never do it" mindset.

Just what kind of accuracy are these home swaged projectiles capable of? Comparable to run of the mill factory, or match grade?

Robert

[Liberty1776]

I've been kind of interested in using cases for bullet jackets since I read about it; in a "Gee that's neat, but I'll probably never do it" mindset.

Just what kind of accuracy are these home swaged projectiles capable of? Comparable to run of the mill factory, or match grade?

Robert

No idea of accuracy yet. I freaked myself out by not knowing if I had annealed the cases enough not to harm my Marlin's rifling. I only shot a few.

I intend, just to be safe, to melt my supply down and start over.
285559

This time, I want really soft, fully annealed brass cases for sure this time, which is why I asked the question.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for the in progress answer.

I like the detailed info on your storage jar.

My thoughts on the jacket hardness are that I would compare the home swaged brass hardness against a store bought gilding metal jacket, before I made a lot of maybe unnecessary work for myself. Almost any way you look at it, a brass compound is going to be softer than steel.

Robert

[a.squibload]

I read in Castboolits somewhere about the zinc in the brass giving it a lubricity with steel,
probably slides better than copper down the bore.
Propane torch method is easy and cheap, just don't overheat the brass or it can melt!
Barely glowing makes 'em soft for swaging.

PS: Intel6, looks like you have this down to an art form! Very nice.

[OldBearHair]

Blacksmith tricks::: 1. put a small shiny piece of steel in with the brass and begin to heat. The steel begins to turn different colors. When it starts turning purple and reaches deep purple, the temperature is approximately 650 degrees. 2. In a dark room heat the brass until you can barely see it becoming red and that is approximately 900 degrees. Google it to make sure I am giving it to you straight up and not marred by brain fog. LOL

[OldBearHair]

https://www.anvilfire.com/21st-century-blacksmithing/temper-colors/ Bill

[Liberty1776]

Just to show a method I actually tried, based on suggestions by a.squibload and Sasquatch-1 at https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?426793-Swage-240-gr-44-Mag-Jacketed-Bullets-from-40-S-amp-W-Brass-Using-7x57mm-Mauser-Die&p=5218008&viewfull=1#post5218008

25 framing nails shot through a piece of plywood.
Set the shells on the nails.
Turn off lights.
Heat with torch to glowing. (I'm probably overheating them in the picture, but you get the idea)
Allow to air cool.

285634

285635
Post-anneal

[a.squibload]

Looks good, now u can make em purty in a short citric acid soak and
a ride in the tumbler.

[Liberty1776]

Looks good, now u can make em purty in a short citric acid soak and
a ride in the tumbler.


Yep. Wet tumbled with Dawn and Lemi Shine.

Finished product:

285801

Will load them up soon.