Elmer's 44's

[Hrfunk]

Here's one I thought some of you might like.

Howard


https://youtu.be/EfMemyAC940

[FLINTNFIRE]

I liked the hats , good video.

[rintinglen]

Hot Fun with a 44! Those Desperados never had a chance. Thanks a lot for the trip down memory lane.
I sent a great many of those 429-421 boolits down range using exactly that load when I got my first Redhawk. I am a little more worn these days and my wrists won't take the pounding without complaining, but were I to find myself confronting an Ursus Arctos Horriblis in my backyard, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with some of Elmer's wrist benders in one of my 44's.

[sharps4590]

Flyers.....WHY does there ALWAYS seem to be one flyer no matter what I do?!?!?!?! I know, I know...there's several reasons. Glad to see I'm not the only one....

Good video. One of maybe 5 I've ever watched

[ddixie884]

Good stuff and real chrono info.......

[44MAG#1]

Myself, I don't think Mr Keiths load was that hot. Maybe at the most 1350 to 1360 in a 6 1/2 inch 44 Mag.

[Hrfunk]

Thanks all! Those loads came right from an article written by Mr. Keith. The velocities are in keeping with what I've always seen from them.

Howard

[44MAG#1]

Don't doubt the velocities obtained just don't think that the original load was that hot. Each must investigate to the depth of their desire to know. Of course we will never really know. We only have what Whites Labs said about the load through Mr Keiths writings.
Each must believe what they feel comfortable with.

[megasupermagnum]

Don't doubt the velocities obtained just don't think that the original load was that hot. Each must investigate to the depth of their desire to know. Of course we will never really know. We only have what Whites Labs said about the load through Mr Keiths writings.
Each must believe what they feel comfortable with.

What are you talking about? Elmer Keith used 22 grains of 2400 with his SWC bullet, which was cast of 16:1 alloy. That's straight from the horses mouth. You can read it in every one of his books, and I'm sure he mentioned it plenty in magazines. It was listed in load manuals for at least a couple decades. The velocities HRfunk got are in line with everybody else's testing.

[44MAG#1]

Megasupermagnum said.

"What are you talking about? Elmer Keith used 22 grains of 2400 with his SWC bullet, which was cast of 16:1 alloy. That's straight from the horses mouth."

I am well aware of the load and the alloy. Have shot both alot. I talked with Mr Keith many , many times from the mid 70's to shortly before the stroke. Even sent him cast bullets




"You can read it in every one of his books, and I'm sure he mentioned it plenty in magazines. "

I am aware of that too.

"It was listed in load manuals for at least a couple decades. The velocities HRfunk got are in line with everybody else's testing."

I said I didn't doubt Funks velocities, I chronoed the load several times at 22 grains 2400. I still don't think the original load was as hot as it is now or for the past several years. You are free to believe what you want just as I am.

[Hrfunk]

I have heard and read, although I don't know that it's been scientifically proven, that 2400 is slightly faster burning today than it was back when Mr. Keith was experimenting with it. If so, that might be the source of the discrepancy. That said, I've always seen the 22 grain/2400 load listed at a 1400 fps. The original .44 Special load in balloon head cases (18.5 grain/2400) was rated at 1200 fps. As I observed in the video, the 17 grain load (for solid head cases) Comes in slightly below that. However, on a warmer day, it might still make it to 1200 fps. Regardless of the exact numbers, these are still great loads.

Howard

[megasupermagnum]

I said I didn't doubt Funks velocities, I chronoed the load several times at 22 grains 2400. I still don't think the original load was as hot as it is now or for the past several years. You are free to believe what you want just as I am.

So you have shot the load, do not deny that it was the load Elmer Keith used in 44 magnum, and do not deny that the speeds are typical of what everyone gets... but you still don't think this is the original load? What are you trying to say?

[44MAG#1]

So you have shot the load, do not deny that it was the load Elmer Keith used in 44 magnum, and do not deny that the speeds are typical of what everyone gets... but you still don't think this is the original load? What are you trying to say?

I think the velocity is much higher now. That is what I am saying. That is what I mean when I say "hot". In other words the velocity is higher now than then. That is what I am saying.

[44MAG#1]

Let me put this out here. What I said was NOT meant to cause alarm, or cause for concern. It was based on my opinion based on my limited testing of different "lots " of 2400, tested in revolvers and a 6.6 inch Encore barrel that was at one time a 12 inch barrel. I sacrificed that barrel to test the "Keith Load" in. Then it was tested in my revolvers . The thing to keep in mind is. Keiths load ran around 1400 fps with 34000CUP by the "horses mouth".

BTW, None of us were there when Mr. Keith loaded those rounds when he sent them to Whites Labs. We don't know how close the"lots" of 2400 were then. How controlled the "lots" of primers were them etc.. it is only a guess of which there are many. We don't know how well Whites Lab was at controling their testing protocol etc.. Whites did alot of testing for the factories too at that time. The standard test barrel length at that time was 6.5 inch including chamber without venting like is used by some now.
There is going to be many weigh in having little experience to those who have fired many, many, many thousands of rounds and ones that have thousands of dollars of equipment to those who have more firearms than the US Military but none if us really know.
So it is all opinion.

[derek45]

I saw that video today, . . . when I was supposed to be working :coffeecom



https://i.imgur.com/eD2xZM5.jpg

22gr2400 / SWC is a stout load.

251gr Arsenal #503 Keith

22gr 2400

average-1457fps

5.5" Ruger SBH

https://i.imgur.com/KDL4k9H.jpg

[44MAG#1]

My 5.5 inch Redhawk ran the H&G old 503 I have at 1535 average with 22.0 2400 and Fed 150 primers.
Hot "lot" of powder.

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, so you are saying the 2400 we shoot now is different, producing more pressure than when Elmer Keith was loading ammo. I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Unless you don't trust Larry Gibson I suppose. I'm sure you are aware load manuals for many, many years listed the maximum load with a 429421 and 2400 at 23.4 gr, well above Keith's load.

Anyway, I ran this in Quickloads, I didn't take a ton of time to make sure every input was perfect, but with a 429421 and 22gr 2400 powder, it gives you a general idea of what a 10% lot to lot variation can do. Nothing has changed, it's normal manufacturing tolerance.

-10% - 1330 fps
+10%- 1533 fps

[44MAG#1]

Ok, so you are saying the 2400 we shoot now is different, producing more pressure than when Elmer Keith was loading ammo. I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Unless you don't trust Larry Gibson I suppose. I'm sure you are aware load manuals for many, many years listed the maximum load with a 429421 and 2400 at 23.4 gr, well above Keith's load.

Anyway, I ran this in Quickloads, I didn't take a ton of time to make sure every input was perfect, but with a 429421 and 22gr 2400 powder, it gives you a general idea of what a 10% lot to lot variation can do. Nothing has changed, it's normal manufacturing tolerance.

-10% - 1330 fps
+10%- 1533 fps

I will say this. You don't know, I don't know nor does anyone else know what H2400 was like at the time. We don't have any I would bet. I am going on what the "Horses Mouth" said, "around 1400 fps with 34,000CUP as tested by HP Whites Laboratories. With my 6.6 inch Encore barrel with the H&G 503 of the older design, Fed 150 primer, new Starline brass 22.0 grains of Alliant 2400 lot 782-Z020416 ran 1553 fps over a series of rounds. If a pressure barrel has tighter specs than a production barrel then velocity will likely be higher. Dropping down to 21.0 grains with the same components velocity ran 1461 fps, still higher than 1400 fps. It would take roughly 20.5 grains to run 1400 fps in that barrel.
Now let's break down what we know. Test barrels were standard at 6.5 inch at the time including the chamber.. The "Horses Mouth" said around 1400 fps. A 4 inch Smith M29 with the cylinder included is 5.875 inches long. .625 less than 6.5 inches, okay the flash gap will bleed roughly 5 percent velocity, now down to 1330 fps, now let's just deduct an arbitrary 50 fps which is really being conservative, due to the test barrel being, hopefully, tighter just as good measure as test barrel GENERALLY give somewhat higher velocity than an equal length production barrel so we are now down to 1280 fps. Through chronoing we know that with 2400 and 240 to 250 grain bullets one looses roughly 40 fps per inch a barrel is shortened so we are looking at 25 fps due to .the .625 inch shorter length of the revolver so no we are down to 1255 fps in a 4 inch revolver. Now if we go to a 6.5 inch revolver we gain 100 fps give or take a few so in a 6.5 inch revolver we are looking at 1355 fps give or take a few. The Keith load produced a velocity level he was okay with so hence the load produced the Keith velocity too. Which wasn't a hundred fps more or a hundred fps less.
I have found in chronoing 4 inch M29's with the "Keith bullet" , if there is such a thing, it takes between 20.0 grains to 21.0 grains depending on the primer and the "Keith bullet" being used to duplicate what I said above unless it a "screwball" "lot" of powder. No magnum primers are used by me in the 44 Mag with 2400.
This, above is what I have to say. I am sure I will be picked apart on what I said above by the inexperienced to those that own thousands of dollars of equipment and more firearms than the US Military. So be it. You believe the way you want to and I'll believe the way I want to.
How is that for simplicity?

[TNsailorman]

I will say that I enjoyed the video of Elmer's .44 magnum/special loads. Howard always does a super job with his videos. james

[FISH4BUGS]

So here is MY question - which bullet are we talking about when you say "Keith" bullet? Lyman 429421 or H&G # 503?
If the bullets are exactly the same, fine. If not, then there should be a distinction WHICH bullet we are speaking of.
There are at least TWO variations of the #503 with the major differences being in the width of the drive band that I am aware of.
Does it make a difference?
Probably not.
But there were multiple references to the "Keith Bullet".
I'm sure both will shoot far better than I am capable of doing.

[44MAG#1]

So here is MY question - which bullet are we talking about when you say "Keith" bullet? Lyman 429421 or H&G # 503?

Make your choice.

The thread going off track was my fault and I am sorry for that.
I should have kept my fingers quite.
I will take complete ownership of messing up the thread.
It was a wondeful video.

If anyone wants to discuss anything I said and wants to thrash me soundly please PM me.
I am not going to respond to anything posted to me on the thread starting now.
PM your thoughts positive or negative.
Again I am sorry for derailing the thread. I shouldn't have stuck my nose in it.

[megasupermagnum]

So here is MY question - which bullet are we talking about when you say "Keith" bullet? Lyman 429421 or H&G # 503?
If the bullets are exactly the same, fine. If not, then there should be a distinction WHICH bullet we are speaking of.
There are at least TWO variations of the #503 with the major differences being in the width of the drive band that I am aware of.
Does it make a difference?
Probably not.
But there were multiple references to the "Keith Bullet".
I'm sure both will shoot far better than I am capable of doing.

With regards to the pressure/velocity, it doesn't really matter. In comparing drawings online, we are usually talking about .020" or less here or there. According to Quickloads, the biggest difference I could find only changed it about 40 fps.

[derek45]

So here is MY question - which bullet are we talking about when you say "Keith" bullet? Lyman 429421 or H&G # 503?
If the bullets are exactly the same, fine. If not, then there should be a distinction WHICH bullet we are speaking of.
There are at least TWO variations of the #503 with the major differences being in the width of the drive band that I am aware of.
Does it make a difference?
Probably not.
But there were multiple references to the "Keith Bullet".
I'm sure both will shoot far better than I am capable of doing.

If you read his book SIXGUNS ( available cheap on amazon again ) He describes what my Arsenal #503 is and not what my 429421 is.

flat base, square lube groove, 3 full diameter equal sized bands

https://i.imgur.com/eQMzlaR.jpg


the blue coated is made by IDEAL, the clear coated is ARSENAL #503

note the difference of the lube groove, and front band

https://i.imgur.com/HclYOTi.jpg
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sorry for the thread hijack HR

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[TNsailorman]

44mag#1, You were not the only one, I also got off topic and I just edited my comments to what I should have said in the first place and left it there. Great job Howard. james

[missionary5155]

I may have missed it but revolvers can differ alot when it comes to FPS with the same load loaded by the same person.
Compare a DW with a tight cylinder, barrel gap and barrel to a Ruger Blackhawk with looser specs but same barrel length and there will be a slower slug flying downrange.

[ddixie884]

I am going to post my opinion on this. I see much common sense in all the posts in this thread. First thanks to the OP. 2nd I'm pretty sure I have not fired any true Keith loads. I have fired loads inspired by and similar to Keith's. I have never fired a bullet of 1 to 16 tin and lead. EMK used more than 1 mold from more than 1 maker. The important thing is to get similar results and I'm of the opinion that the OP did this. I don't feel it is hard to get close to the experience and results of the Keith load and I'm satisfied. Anything over 20gr 2400 or 16gr in a spl with any reasonable copy of the original makes a good load. The similarity of our thoughts is bigger than Our differences. JMHO-YMMV and I'm just glad we have this forum........

[Hrfunk]

Please don’t worry about hijacking the thread. I always hope the video links will prompt some lively discussion in the forum. So any comments you may have are welcome. Fire away!

Howard

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I'm happy with the 250K boolit over 7 grs. of Unique in .44 special and 12 grs. of HS-6 in .44 mag. Fun video.