PC not going into battery

[Sasquatch-1]

Because I am too lazy to sort through all the old posting (which can be a chore here) I will ask this question and forgive me if it's been asked before.

Does anyone else have a problem with PC bullets not going into battery and then having to have considerable force used to remove them? I size before and after powder coating. I have had this problem with both 9mm and 45 acp.

At the range yesterday another shooter had the same problem using a commercially powder coated bullet and some coated by another shooter. They tried these in 2 or 3 different guns with the same results.

Any solutions.

[zarrinvz24]

What type of firearms? It could be the barrel throat or leade is too short for your sized diameter.

[remy3424]

Are they engaging the rifling? The PC is likely "fattening-up" (a technical term) the nose. You might need to seat them slightly deeper.

[slam45]

Sasquatch

powder coating increases the size of all the boolit... not just the bearing surfaces, which is the only part sizing touches... choices for dealing with it include:loading the rounds to a shorter OAL, reaming the throat and lead of the barrel to take the larger non bearing area of the nose, find a system for sizing the nose, or get a mold with a nose shape that does not interfere when powder coated... must be more and I'm sure others will let you know... as a lube-sizing caster, I've collected molds that just lightly engrave the rifling when chambered and would not work well coated.

[Cast10]

I’m a relative new guy here and just completed my first test loads and have done my second PCing.

Using my boolits for pistol and carbine and notice carbine would not go into battery unless forced and then forced to eject. Check your COAL. I had to shorten my length and seat the bullet a bit deeper. All was good after that and test shots were without incident.

[DougGuy]

You don't tell us much. What guns what caliber for starters. There are NUMEROUS threads covering the 45 ACP 1911 feeding there is a current thread where the OP PC'd boolits and had the same issues, his issue was solved by throating the barrel which is the most practical thing to do, or you can seat deeper but compensate the load for the shorter COA.

DO NOT force feed your gun into battery! Boolit setback can occur which will drive pressures dangerously high when you fire that round, you can blow the gun up pretty easy with setback.

You cut off the most significant online source for firearms reloading and casting information by not reading and searching. Your issue has been addressed OVER AND OVER.

[Kraschenbirn]

Had same issue with PC'd 125 gr. RNs in a couple of 9mms, switched to 125 gr. truncated cone and problem went away. Around the same time, found that I had to seat my coated 147 gr. sub-sonics .015 deeper to ensure reliable function. Both examples were in 'newer' 9mms...a SIG and a Kahr...my old Hi-Power gobbles anything I feed it.

Bill

[Conditor22]

I always do a barrel plunk test and a function test when I load any new-to-me boolit.

PC generally adds .001 to .003 to cast boolit diameter.

I've never heard of any commercial casters that use powder coating due to the extra work involved, all the ones I know of use HiTek coating due to its simplicity of coating and getting a good even coat.

[OldBearHair]

"but compensate the load for the shorter COA." please re-read post #6 by DougGuy

[Dragonheart]

Powder coating increases all the dimensions of a bullet, other than the actual area where the bullet contacts the sizing die. Typically that build out from the substrate is 1.5 to 3 mils, but can be more. To compound the problem, bullet designs vary as well as gun barrel dimensions. The solution to the problem is simple regardless of the caliber or make of firearm. Those that load for accuracy probably already know this, but for those new to the game I will explain.

Overall cartridge length is paramount not only for safety but for accuracy. Back to basics; when a cartridge is chambered it is designed to headspace. Headspace is that distance from a closed bolt to the chamber face. All cases do not headspace the same, some determine the headspace off a rim, a shoulder oron the mouth of the case.

In 9 mm & 45 ACP both are tapered cases designed to headspace on the case mouth. I will focus my comments based on these two calibers as they are the most common. Contrary to what some will tell you, case length definitely makes a difference. When chambered a case that is too long, the excess brass is forced into the bullet and chamber throat, distorting the bullet and a pressure spike when fired, assuming they chamber at all. A short case headspaces on the extractor and not on the mouth and typically results in poorer accuracy.

So the first step in your process is to find several perfect cases to work with. In my experience I have found the best accuracy is obtained in 9 mm with a sized case that measures .750" and for 45 ACP .895" case length. You might have to go through a lot of cases to find these lengths because cartridge manufacturers cut their cases short. After literally measuring thousands of 9 mm cased I have not found a single manufacturer that actually makes a case to (SIAAM) Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute specifications. Long cases can be trimmed to the perfect size.

Once you have a few of these cases check the sizing using a chamber gauge to make sure they are sized properly and a "perfect" case to work with. Next step is to take a Dremel rotary tool with a fine cutting dish and make two cuts opposite each other starting at the mouth of the case and going straight down past the spot where your deepest bullet base would reside.
284479

Once you have your case then insert your sized bullet into the mouth of the case just fare enough to hold the bullet without falling out.
284480

Remove the barrel from your handgun and clean the barrel thoroughly. Insert your case with protruding bullet into the barrel and push the case firmly into the chamber using finger pressure. The bullet of sufficient length and design will go into the chamber throat and stop on the rifling lands. Now remove the case from the chamber as gently as possible, a small flat blade screwdriver or other tool may be needed to get it started. Once the case is out measure the overall length of the cartridge. This measurement will give you your maxium overall cartridge length for that particular bullet. Repeat this process several times until you are satisfied you have an accurate OAL. For safety a bullet should be seated back several thousands. Best accuracy is typically found with as little jump as possible. I typically seat my powder coated bullets back about .005". This needs to be done with every bullet and barrel combination. Now set your press dies accordingly; this is where a micrometer seating die pays for itself.

The other issue is powder coated bullet sizing. Realize this when you PC you are making a jacketed bullet. Would you buy .357 jacketed bullets to load in your 9mm, not likely, so why size a PC 9mm bullet several thousands over barrel dimensions. Slug your barrels. In my 30 + 9 mm handguns of various manufactures I have never measured a 9mm barrel that a PC .356" bullet sizing would not properly seal.

If you follow this simple procedure you will eliminate the problem of going to the range with ammo that won't chamber.

[Traffer]

Resizing forces the ogive to get a wee bit wider just above the "step". If your gun has a very precisely cut chamber it won't accept the wider bullet where it contacts the lands. (my guess)
You will have to seat them deeper or re-size with a point forming die. (more my guess)

[Sasquatch-1]

As mentioned in the original post these were both 9mm and 45 acp. I personally have had problems with two Walther PPQ's. One in 9mm and one in 45 acp. both using Lee truncated cone bullets sized before and after coating.

A friend had the same problem with a commercially coated 9mm bullet in a Sig. There was also the same incident with 2 1911's at the shoot I went to this past weekend along with two other guns that I don't know the make of for sure but I believe one may have been a Glock and the other a STI but not sure.

Some of these rounds were loaded by three different people, so I can't comment on how all were loaded.

The rounds I loaded were the Lee truncated cone tumble lube style bullet crimped with the Lee FC die. The powder was Eastwood Ford Blue and baked at 425 for 15 minutes.

It never even dawned on me about the ogive/cone area of the bullet not being sized. I was attributing the problem to the coating springing back after sizing and loading.

[Dragonheart]

So many still do not realize that cast bullets are not-concentric (lopsided) when they come out of a mold. This applies to all cast bullets regardless of the quality of the mold. alloy,skill of the caster, ect. This is just the physics of the casting process and the reason for my above statement,when I said the only area that is truly round on a cast bullet is where the sizing die touches; the remainder of the bullet remains non-concentric.

This is the reason when you create a polymer jacket on a cast bullet, a jacket that is capable of withstanding the torque spin-up of 50,000 pounds of chamber pressure, velocities on excess 3000 fps and the intense heat of ignition, the imperfect cast bullet remains non-concentric.

[Burnt Fingers]

Powder coating increases all the dimensions of a bullet, other than the actual area where the bullet contacts the sizing die. Typically that build out from the substrate is 1.5 to 3 mils, but can be more. To compound the problem, bullet designs vary as well as gun barrel dimensions. The solution to the problem is simple regardless of the caliber or make of firearm. Those that load for accuracy probably already know this, but for those new to the game I will explain.

Overall cartridge length is paramount not only for safety but for accuracy. Back to basics; when a cartridge is chambered it is designed to headspace. Headspace is that distance from a closed bolt to the chamber face. All cases do not headspace the same, some determine the headspace off a rim, a shoulder oron the mouth of the case.

In 9 mm & 45 ACP both are tapered cases designed to headspace on the case mouth. I will focus my comments based on these two calibers as they are the most common. Contrary to what some will tell you, case length definitely makes a difference. When chambered a case that is too long, the excess brass is forced into the bullet and chamber throat, distorting the bullet and a pressure spike when fired, assuming they chamber at all. A short case headspaces on the extractor and not on the mouth and typically results in poorer accuracy.

So the first step in your process is to find several perfect cases to work with. In my experience I have found the best accuracy is obtained in 9 mm with a sized case that measures .750" and for 45 ACP .895" case length. You might have to go through a lot of cases to find these lengths because cartridge manufacturers cut their cases short. After literally measuring thousands of 9 mm cased I have not found a single manufacturer that actually makes a case to (SIAAM) Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute specifications. Long cases can be trimmed to the perfect size.

Once you have a few of these cases check the sizing using a chamber gauge to make sure they are sized properly and a "perfect" case to work with. Next step is to take a Dremel rotary tool with a fine cutting dish and make two cuts opposite each other starting at the mouth of the case and going straight down past the spot where your deepest bullet base would reside.
284479

Once you have your case then insert your sized bullet into the mouth of the case just fare enough to hold the bullet without falling out.
284480

Remove the barrel from your handgun and clean the barrel thoroughly. Insert your case with protruding bullet into the barrel and push the case firmly into the chamber using finger pressure. The bullet of sufficient length and design will go into the chamber throat and stop on the rifling lands. Now remove the case from the chamber as gently as possible, a small flat blade screwdriver or other tool may be needed to get it started. Once the case is out measure the overall length of the cartridge. This measurement will give you your maxium overall cartridge length for that particular bullet. Repeat this process several times until you are satisfied you have an accurate OAL. For safety a bullet should be seated back several thousands. Best accuracy is typically found with as little jump as possible. I typically seat my powder coated bullets back about .005". This needs to be done with every bullet and barrel combination. Now set your press dies accordingly; this is where a micrometer seating die pays for itself.

The other issue is powder coated bullet sizing. Realize this when you PC you are making a jacketed bullet. Would you buy .357 jacketed bullets to load in your 9mm, not likely, so why size a PC 9mm bullet several thousands over barrel dimensions. Slug your barrels. In my 30 + 9 mm handguns of various manufactures I have never measured a 9mm barrel that a PC .356" bullet sizing would not properly seal.

If you follow this simple procedure you will eliminate the problem of going to the range with ammo that won't chamber.

9mm and 45 ACP brass get shorter the more they are reloaded. I've never measured case length on either one.

[Dragonheart]

9mm and 45 ACP brass get shorter the more they are reloaded. I've never measured case length on either one.

Sorry, but that is incorrect, just the opposite, cases get longer the more they are reloaded and therein lies the safety issue, especially if you pick up range brass of dubious origin, as I do.

When a cartridge is fired the case expands due to pressure and heat to the size and shape of the firearm's chamber. Once the case starts to cool, which is immediate, there is a a slight spring back allowing the extractor to remove the case from the chamber. However, the case does not return to the original shape and size. Wildcat cases take advantage of this and are often "fire formed" in this manner.

To reshape the case it typically is pushed into a sizing die to allow it to once again hold the bullet and be inserted into a like size chambers. It is the heat and working of the metal that causes the metal's grain structure to lengthen and this is not just metallic cartridge cases.

But the sizing process itself is flawed because the entire case is not resized. The shell holder does not allow the entire case to go into a sizing die, so there is always a ring just above the case's base that goes unsized. Repeated firings in unsupported chambers allows this ring to expand outward and eventually will be so large in diameter that the case will no longer chamber. This expansion of the case as it came to be known as the "Glock Bulge", but in reality this is an issue with firearms with unsupported chambers.

This case Bulge can be removed by pushing the entire case through a properly sized die made for that purpose, further working the metal.

[JWFilips]

You need to resize after any application of PC

[kayala]

I think it’s more to do with a profile. I’ve had problems with commercial cast and PC-d (.452) and had to seat them much lower.

[Burnt Fingers]

Sorry, but that is incorrect, just the opposite, cases get longer the more they are reloaded and therein lies the safety issue, especially if you pick up range brass of dubious origin, as I do.

When a cartridge is fired the case expands due to pressure and heat to the size and shape of the firearm's chamber. Once the case starts to cool, which is immediate, there is a a slight spring back allowing the extractor to remove the case from the chamber. However, the case does not return to the original shape and size. Wildcat cases take advantage of this and are often "fire formed" in this manner.

To reshape the case it typically is pushed into a sizing die to allow it to once again hold the bullet and be inserted into a like size chambers. It is the heat and working of the metal that causes the metal's grain structure to lengthen and this is not just metallic cartridge cases.

But the sizing process itself is flawed because the entire case is not resized. The shell holder does not allow the entire case to go into a sizing die, so there is always a ring just above the case's base that goes unsized. Repeated firings in unsupported chambers allows this ring to expand outward and eventually will be so large in diameter that the case will no longer chamber. This expansion of the case as it came to be known as the "Glock Bulge", but in reality this is an issue with firearms with unsupported chambers.

This case Bulge can be removed by pushing the entire case through a properly sized die made for that purpose, further working the metal.

I'm not sure where you get your info, but straight wall cases get shorter. I thought this was common knowledge. Bottle neck cases are a different animal.

http://vintagepistols.com/massreloading/loading45ACP.html

[Traffer]

Post #18 has a good article:
I believe this is another good article. The "ogive forward" idea would explain why a PC'd bullet that is sized down (only on the bearing surface) would fatten and thus change the base of the ogive, making it closer in dimension to the bearing surface of the bullet. That fatter bottom of the ogive could cause chambering problems.
Indeed I made a custom swaging die for a friend who had problems and had to load these bullets deeper. So I changed the ogive and the problem was solved....https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=235

[Traffer]

Here are some of the notes in my file that may be interesting:
Ogive number calculator to radius:
#6 ogive for .308 is r =1.848”
6 X .308” =1.848”

Mold TL356-124-2R 9mm Luger, 38 Super, 380 ACP (356 Diameter) 124 Grain Tumble Lube 2 Ogive Radius:
2 x.356 = .712” Radius of ogive.

Note: 11/32” drill bit is perfect for the ogive. It is .3438”.
The diameter of the bearing surface is .357” or .356”.
Make the ogive extend no more than .350” for OAL of 1.09”
I think that .300” should suffice. .320” should be a good average.
An OAL of 1.09” leaves .350” to the case mouth.
Although the “step” before the ogive is not ballistically desirable,
It is often necessary for proper chambering of the cartridge because of the 9mm chambering on the mouth of the case.
I started by using a smaller “stick out” of the ogive. Or, longer bearing surface before the ogive started. This caused the bullets to mash into the throat of the barrel and get stuck. Also preventing the proper chambering of the rounds. A longer ogive (and narrower) will solve this problem.
This is a pic of some earlier experiments with ogives for 9MM using the TL356-124-2R molded slug. The slug on the right is the bullet dropped from that mold: (neither of these would work well because they either had to be loaded too deeply or they would not chamber.
284837

[kens]

my experience with cast boolits & auto pistols is that they need to be crimped, in order to feed reliably.
the crimp die set correctly, is where you pass the 'plunk' test

[Baltimoreed]

The ogive gets larger along with the diameter of the bullet when it is pc’ed. Resizing only affects the diameter. You will need to seat them deeper into the case. Had a similar experience with my 300 blkout.

[tankgunner59]

I have had the same problem in the past in my wife's SCCY CPX2. I thought the same as you, then I decided to check a dummy round OAL. I found that with the Lee TC pills I needed to seat a bit deeper than the RN pills. I was concerned at first about the depth of the boolits, so I loaded 5 and fired them and they fired flawlessly.

[charlie b]

If you are running a max load and seating deeper you probably do need to reduce the powder charge a bit. Unless you measure velocity or pressure you won't know when you are over pressure.

[Taterhead]

Sorry, but that is incorrect, just the opposite, cases get longer the more they are reloaded and therein lies the safety issue, especially if you pick up range brass of dubious origin, as I do.

When a cartridge is fired the case expands due to pressure and heat to the size and shape of the firearm's chamber. Once the case starts to cool, which is immediate, there is a a slight spring back allowing the extractor to remove the case from the chamber. However, the case does not return to the original shape and size. Wildcat cases take advantage of this and are often "fire formed" in this manner.

To reshape the case it typically is pushed into a sizing die to allow it to once again hold the bullet and be inserted into a like size chambers. It is the heat and working of the metal that causes the metal's grain structure to lengthen and this is not just metallic cartridge cases.

But the sizing process itself is flawed because the entire case is not resized. The shell holder does not allow the entire case to go into a sizing die, so there is always a ring just above the case's base that goes unsized. Repeated firings in unsupported chambers allows this ring to expand outward and eventually will be so large in diameter that the case will no longer chamber. This expansion of the case as it came to be known as the "Glock Bulge", but in reality this is an issue with firearms with unsupported chambers.

This case Bulge can be removed by pushing the entire case through a properly sized die made for that purpose, further working the metal.


I'm not sure where you get your info, but straight wall cases get shorter. I thought this was common knowledge. Bottle neck cases are a different animal.

http://vintagepistols.com/massreloading/loading45ACP.html

I'm with Burnt Fingers on this one. I have personally measured probably 10,000 auto-loading handgun case lengths after reasizing because I was very anal in my early days. Not one of them grew past max length and they universally got shorter with successive firings and resizing. Many of them shrunk below trim-to lengths (even after sizing). Mine is anecdotal, but it is a decent sample size across several cartridges.

Further a die that sufficiently sizes down to the web will get reloaded brass to gauge reliably. I gauge all of my ammo and it will split before it won't gauge. 80-90% of my straight wall ammo is shot through Glock barrels.

[David2011]

Just wondering if it makes a difference if boolits are sized nose first or base first. Most of my sizing is done on a Star, nose first. I can see that metal might be displaced forward if sizing base first.

I have a Lyman but don’t think I’ve ever sized boolits for an auto loader on it. It’s used primarily for SWCs for revolvers.

[Smokin Gun]

I had a problem in an LCP with .380 bullets not wanting to go into battery that I had PCoated. Sized them down 1 more thousandth and they work fine now. I tried really crimping them hard but it did not work until I sized the whole bullet down one more thousandth.

[rockshooter]

post # 18 also explains why .45 colt cases (as an example where the rims doesn't get boogered up by an extractor) don't fit the normal shell holder after a lot of reloads- the groove gets mashed shut.
Loren

[Dragonheart]

I'm with Burnt Fingers on this one. I have personally measured probably 10,000 auto-loading handgun case lengths after reasizing because I was very anal in my early days. Not one of them grew past max length and they universally got shorter with successive firings and resizing. Many of them shrunk below trim-to lengths (even after sizing). Mine is anecdotal, but it is a decent sample size across several cartridges.

Further a die that sufficiently sizes down to the web will get reloaded brass to gauge reliably. I gauge all of my ammo and it will split before it won't gauge. 80-90% of my straight wall ammo is shot through Glock barrels.

Gentlemen, I stand corrected as it appears there is an adequate mechanical reason for straight wall cases head spacing on the case mouth to get shorter in length. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

After every firing I pneumatically run all my straight wall cases through a die to push out the bulge that develops above the rim before standard resizing. I started this years ago to assure every case would chamber. So my additional reworking of my brass appears to causing me to get a different result from the norm.